Prove the Trinity wrong challenge.

[bbyrd009]

Hey Groper (@bbyrd009), I am curious; what does wadr mean?

ah, didn't get a tag for this, sorry. With All Due Respect

 

[bbyrd009]

Who can know him..

little kids i guess?

 

[bbyrd009]

The Son, through the venue of the LORD's zeal, shall have the name everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6-7).

The Son is begotten in the sense that He is the same Spirit as the Father encapsulated in human flesh (John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11). There is one Spirit, one Lord, one God (Ephesians 4:4-6) and they are the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).

It is a choice between the Son being begotten through the virgin birth; or the Son being begotten by the creation of some kind of eternal mirror in the heavenlies which God created so that He could send someone besides Himself to do the work of redemption in dying on the Cross. In other words, He passed the buck. Either the Son is eternally begotten according to some of the creeds or He was begotten through the virgin birth (i.e. the Father became the Son) and when He ascended into heaven, He ascended to dwell back in eternity, outside of time, as I think Ephesians 4:10 might tell you. How Jesus can dwell in eternity in a human body of flesh is beyond me; but I think that it must somehow be possible within the realm of the ten dimensions spoken of in the Bible Codes of Genesis chapter 1. For we also know from scripture that with God nothing shall be impossible.

Now of course, if the Son is eternally begotten through the creation of some kind of eternal mirror, then there is a God besides Jehovah contrary to Isaiah 45:5 and Isaiah 45:18 and Isaiah 45:21.

But if Jesus was begotten through the process of the Spirit, who is the Father, (Ephesians 4:4, John 4:23-24, John 7:39) taking on the nature of a human being (John 14:7-11, Luke 1:35), then the Person formed is the same Person as Jehovah only with an added nature of human flesh; and therefore He would also be a different Person (per se) because of that added nature. Nevertheless He would be the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).

when Christ's prayer comes true and you also become One as They are One, will you expect to be worshipped too?
You are going to join the pantheon iow?

 

[bbyrd009]

On the subject of the establishment of creeds in order to define the nature of God, A.T.Jones, in 1897 wrote...“ It could not possibly be otherwise [than Athanasius admitted], because it was an attempt of the finite to measure, to analyse, and eventually to dissect, the Infinite. It was an attempt to make the human superior to the Divine. God is infinite. No finite mind can comprehend Him as He actually is. Christ is the word—the expression of the thought —of God; and none but He knows the depth of the meaning of that word. "He had a name written that no man knew but He Himself; . . . and His name is called the Word of God."

very nice imo

 

[bbyrd009]

I believe it to be self evident. The Son is in some sense subordinate to His Father. The Father is first in rank. Thus the co-equal nature of the Trinitarian creed is suspect.

also removes Christ as High Priest i guess, can't be both

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, we who appreciate the truth contained in the trinitarian creeds are at odds with Islam, Judaism, and other cults and sects.

If we think that Christianity is a religion...

 

[Taken]

yes i get the part that the Most High does not lie, i figured that out from the "that He should lie" part of the scripture.
and what example does the scripture provide for us to prove that He does not lie, the part that you guys seem to be blinded to, He is not a man.

So, your wondering "what proves God does not lie" ?....

This is two part, as it always is two part when it pertains to two.

One is God - How does God reveal He does not lie.

Two is man - Why does a man believe God does not lie.

One - God proclaims He does not lie.

Two - a man can "BLINDLY" believe it, as you seem to suggest.

Two - a man can "by Faith, by Trust", believe it.

Two - a man can "Trust" it, examples in Scripture.

Two - a man can "Believe" it, by his own experience.

In scripture, God Foretells, of what WILL occur, before it has occured. Men who hear, read, know, what is foretold, THEN see, hear, learn, observe, what God foretold come to pass.....

Can "themselves" TRUST to believe, God does not lie, via that method.

Also outside of Scripture, men can ASK the Lord for certain things. I say "certain" things, because there is knowledge required to know, HOW asking the Lord is effective.

First of all....God freely reveals His Word for ALL.

Secondly...it is the man, that freely decides IF he wants to HEAR Gods Word.

It is the man WHO chooses to Hear, that God Himself blesses that man with measures of faith. Not fullness, but measures. The more the man continues, hearing, the more faith the man receives.
The man who stops hearing, stops receiving faith.
The man who continues, comes to a point TO decide IF he want to VOW to the Lord that the man BELIEVES and "WANTS" to forever be "KEPT" in Faith-FULLNESS to the Lord God, ONLY.
A man making such a heartfelt TRUTHFUL VOW TO the Lord God....THEE Lord GOD...obliges....and KEEPS THAT MAN, IN faithfulness to thee Lord God, forever...
WITH and BY Gods own Supreme Power.

This such man has 24-7 eternal spiritual Direct access TO thee Lord God Himself, to communicate Supernaturally with God.

Also consideration of the man WHO, has NOT make a VOW to God. On the broad surface, there is a dilemma for the man. That man has A VERY LIMITED access TO the Lord God.
His access, is LIMITED, to pretty much....
The Lord God WILL Hear such man WHO has chosen to make a VOW TO GOD of Heartfelt Belief....

But we know men....deceptive and tricky.
Many men DO NOT follow Gods way. (Order) of Hearing His word First.
They Hear ABOUT GOD, hear what other people Believe, Claim they do not believe in God, Give all their "reasons" and "complaints" Against God....and then WONDER WHY...if God is SO GREAT, WHY He does not "MAKE" them believe.

God does not MAKE men believe IN HIM.
Men have FREEWILL.
God provides a WAY "FOR" men to believe....
Yet men IGNORE HIS WAY, and WANT to "rewrite" Gods plan, to "THEIR WAY"....
And it's a FAIL!

Scripture foretells...
You can read in Genesis and forward, of God proclaiming something, and declaring it WILL come to pass....
And see that many times, the "coming to pass" is TOO distant in the future, and men "EVEN THEN" wanted Instant satisfaction.

In Ezekiel 12:25 The Lord given men their desire, to have what God proclaims will come to pass, be a shorter period of WAITING TIME for men to SEE, what God has proclaimed...COME TO PASS.

In the NT, Jesus reveals things THAT MUST come to pass.

In John 14:29 Jesus reveals He Tells men of what WILL come to pass BEFOREHAND, SO THAT WHEN it comes to PASS, THAT they might then Believe.

Their "waiting" for SEEING, what was told WILL Come to pass....occurred over the 3 years they were WITH JESUS...and thereafter within DAYS of being Foretold, it occured within Days. <---- speaking specifically of them Receiving the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The ORDER is according to Gods WAY.
To subvert Gods WAY, to what WAY a man decides Gods WAY, "should be", is a fail.

God IS the giver of FAITH, and provides a WAY for a man TO receive FAITH.....AND KEEP IT FOREVER.

A man WHO has RECEIVED the Fullness of Faith from God, and Kept in fullness of Faith TO GOD.....IS "THEREAFTER" a man who has DIRECT access to ASK GOD for HIS SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING of Gods OWN Words.

THAT....does not mean....MEN always FOLLOW "THAT" course....
We are keely aware MEN preach and teach THEIR OWN CARNAL UNDERSTANDING of Gods Own Word......

Gods Word is Knowledge/information.
Gods "spiritual" Understanding of His own Word.....is not in Scripture. It is IN GOD, His, and reserved FOR men WHO;
1) have made a heartfelt VOW to God.
2) actually SEEK God FOR His Understanding.

Personally, I think many churches/clergy fail miserably in teaching this point. And in fact some churches/clergy teach to seek "them" for all truth AND understanding.

My answer is probably more than you bargained for.... even though on the big scale this is brief....but hopefully you have understood....belief and faith is not blind.

I routinely Read Gods Word, and routinely study Gods Word, and routinely ASK GOD for His Understanding of HIS WORD.

I trust What He gives me. I experience the "Results" of What He gives me.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Dave L]

If we think that Christianity is a religion...

So it is not a belief?

 

[Episkopos]

But if you don't know the truth, you don't know Christ very well if at all.

If you know Christ, how could you try reducing Him to a formula?

If you took a friend of yours...reduced him to a paragraph...and then got other people to think they knew him by reciting that paragraph, would that cause them to know your friend?

 

[Dave L]

If you know Christ, how could you try reducing Him to a formula?

If you took a friend of yours...reduced him to a paragraph...and then got other people to think they knew him by reciting that paragraph, would that cause them to know your friend?

What formula? Can you honestly say Jesus is Lord in writing without contradicting your entire agenda?

 

[Taken]

Dave's idea? How about Christendom being in full agreement with me. And a few obscure sects, Islam, Judaism, Jws and others siding with you...?

Dave... Who cares who "is in full agreement with YOU" ? I don't.

And Why are you speaking FOR other people?
Declaring they "SIDE" with me?

I have made myself abundantly CLEAR.
I "am in full agreement WITH the Lord".

You attempting to SAY OTHERWISE is your own complete FABRICATION.

When are you going to knock off making "YOUR" False declarations for other people?

NOW would be a good time!

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Dave L]

Dave... Who cares who "is in full agreement with YOU" ? I don't.

And Why are you speaking FOR other people?
Declaring they "SIDE" with me?

I have made myself abundantly CLEAR.
I "am in full agreement WITH the Lord".

You attempting to SAY OTHERWISE is your own complete FABRICATION.

When are you going to knock off making "YOUR" False declarations for other people?

NOW would be a good time!

Glory to God,
Taken

Just saying, Christianity is the only religion believing in God according to the trinity doctrine. All other religions reject the Trinity.

 

[Episkopos]

So it is not a belief?

A faith...and a living hope. This cannot be put into a creed or formula. It is a living relationship. It is written on our hearts.....not paper.

 

[Dave L]

A faith...and a living hope. This cannot be put into a creed or formula. It is a living relationship. It is written on our hearts.....not paper.

But, how do you tell a deaf person who doesn't understand your language Jesus is Lord without giving a creed version in writing or sign language?

 

[jaybird]

So, your wondering "what proves God does not lie" ?....

This is two part, as it always is two part when it pertains to two.

One is God - How does God reveal He does not lie.

Two is man - Why does a man believe God does not lie.

One - God proclaims He does not lie.

Two - a man can "BLINDLY" believe it, as you seem to suggest.

Two - a man can "by Faith, by Trust", believe it.

Two - a man can "Trust" it, examples in Scripture.

Two - a man can "Believe" it, by his own experience.

In scripture, God Foretells, of what WILL occur, before it has occured. Men who hear, read, know, what is foretold, THEN see, hear, learn, observe, what God foretold come to pass.....

Can "themselves" TRUST to believe, God does not lie, via that method.

Also outside of Scripture, men can ASK the Lord for certain things. I say "certain" things, because there is knowledge required to know, HOW asking the Lord is effective.

First of all....God freely reveals His Word for ALL.

Secondly...it is the man, that freely decides IF he wants to HEAR Gods Word.

It is the man WHO chooses to Hear, that God Himself blesses that man with measures of faith. Not fullness, but measures. The more the man continues, hearing, the more faith the man receives.
The man who stops hearing, stops receiving faith.
The man who continues, comes to a point TO decide IF he want to VOW to the Lord that the man BELIEVES and "WANTS" to forever be "KEPT" in Faith-FULLNESS to the Lord God, ONLY.
A man making such a heartfelt TRUTHFUL VOW TO the Lord God....THEE Lord GOD...obliges....and KEEPS THAT MAN, IN faithfulness to thee Lord God, forever...
WITH and BY Gods own Supreme Power.

This such man has 24-7 eternal spiritual Direct access TO thee Lord God Himself, to communicate Supernaturally with God.

Also consideration of the man WHO, has NOT make a VOW to God. On the broad surface, there is a dilemma for the man. That man has A VERY LIMITED access TO the Lord God.
His access, is LIMITED, to pretty much....
The Lord God WILL Hear such man WHO has chosen to make a VOW TO GOD of Heartfelt Belief....

But we know men....deceptive and tricky.
Many men DO NOT follow Gods way. (Order) of Hearing His word First.
They Hear ABOUT GOD, hear what other people Believe, Claim they do not believe in God, Give all their "reasons" and "complaints" Against God....and then WONDER WHY...if God is SO GREAT, WHY He does not "MAKE" them believe.

God does not MAKE men believe IN HIM.
Men have FREEWILL.
God provides a WAY "FOR" men to believe....
Yet men IGNORE HIS WAY, and WANT to "rewrite" Gods plan, to "THEIR WAY"....
And it's a FAIL!

Scripture foretells...
You can read in Genesis and forward, of God proclaiming something, and declaring it WILL come to pass....
And see that many times, the "coming to pass" is TOO distant in the future, and men "EVEN THEN" wanted Instant satisfaction.

In Ezekiel 12:25 The Lord given men their desire, to have what God proclaims will come to pass, be a shorter period of WAITING TIME for men to SEE, what God has proclaimed...COME TO PASS.

In the NT, Jesus reveals things THAT MUST come to pass.

In John 14:29 Jesus reveals He Tells men of what WILL come to pass BEFOREHAND, SO THAT WHEN it comes to PASS, THAT they might then Believe.

Their "waiting" for SEEING, what was told WILL Come to pass....occurred over the 3 years they were WITH JESUS...and thereafter within DAYS of being Foretold, it occured within Days. <---- speaking specifically of them Receiving the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The ORDER is according to Gods WAY.
To subvert Gods WAY, to what WAY a man decides Gods WAY, "should be", is a fail.

God IS the giver of FAITH, and provides a WAY for a man TO receive FAITH.....AND KEEP IT FOREVER.

A man WHO has RECEIVED the Fullness of Faith from God, and Kept in fullness of Faith TO GOD.....IS "THEREAFTER" a man who has DIRECT access to ASK GOD for HIS SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING of Gods OWN Words.

THAT....does not mean....MEN always FOLLOW "THAT" course....
We are keely aware MEN preach and teach THEIR OWN CARNAL UNDERSTANDING of Gods Own Word......

Gods Word is Knowledge/information.
Gods "spiritual" Understanding of His own Word.....is not in Scripture. It is IN GOD, His, and reserved FOR men WHO;
1) have made a heartfelt VOW to God.
2) actually SEEK God FOR His Understanding.

Personally, I think many churches/clergy fail miserably in teaching this point. And in fact some churches/clergy teach to seek "them" for all truth AND understanding.

My answer is probably more than you bargained for.... even though on the big scale this is brief....but hopefully you have understood....belief and faith is not blind.

I routinely Read Gods Word, and routinely study Gods Word, and routinely ASK GOD for His Understanding of HIS WORD.

I trust What He gives me. I experience the "Results" of What He gives me.

Glory to God,
Taken

no im not wondering why the Most High does not lie, im wondering why people ignore the example the Most High used to show He does not lie, He is not a man. why is this ignored?

 

[bbyrd009]

But, how do you tell a deaf person who doesn't understand your language Jesus is Lord without giving a creed version in writing or sign language?

um, most Christians use a gun for that i guess Dave

 

[Episkopos]

But, how do you tell a deaf person who doesn't understand your language Jesus is Lord without giving a creed version in writing or sign language?

I think that the bible is there to help us...not with a boiled down version of what we are supposed to memorize or believe. It is often a series of stories that help us to consider what God is all about. It is how God connects to us...and how He wants that personal relationship with those who are willing to look up. It isn't just one story...it is many stories with as many facets as there are people. So we are to seek our own connection...and get involved in a unique story with God.

The irony is that we are meant to be a part of the big story...as we are written in a book. The book of Life in Jesus...or at least the book of Life.

This is all about life after all.

 

[Nancy]

little kids i guess?

Ha!!! Indeed.
"Matthew 18:3 and Jesus says, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you change and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.”

 

[Taken]

Just saying, Christianity is the only religion believing in God according to the trinity doctrine. All other religions reject the Trinity.

And what is man calling the Trinity?

Son, Father, & Holy Spirt Are The One God?
Scripture reveals this...and calls Him:
Lord God Almighty.

And I have already told you this.
I believe this given me in Scripture.

And what else? Ever seen the drawing...
" Trinitarian" symbol...

Says the Father Is God, the Son Is God, The Holy Spirit Is God.....

And...
The Father Is Not the Son, is Not the Son;
The Son is Not the Father, is Not the HS;
The Holy Spirit is Not the Father, is Not the Son

Does those ^ man made words adequately describe your belief?

Because they do not describe mine.


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Dave L]

And what is man calling the Trinity?

Son, Father, & Holy Spirt Are The One God?
Scripture reveals this...and calls Him:
Lord God Almighty.

And I have already told you this.
I believe this given me in Scripture.

And what else? Ever seen the drawing...
" Trinitarian" symbol...

Says the Father Is God, the Son Is God, The Holy Spirit Is God.....

And...
The Father Is Not the Son, is Not the Son;
The Son is Not the Father, is Not the HS;
The Holy Spirit is Not the Father, is Not the Son

Does those ^ man made words adequately describe your belief?

Because they do not describe mine.


Glory to God,
Taken

Trinity as defined by the Ecumenical Creeds, or the creed I posted in the trinity error challenge.