Rapture.. Are You Ready??

[ATP]

Jesus is speaking of "great tribulation" and then he says right after this..."Immediately after the tribulation of those days..." What tribulation? The tribulation he was just referring to...that he described as "great." This passage makes no sense if Jesus is speaking of two categories of tribulation and the "great tribulation" comes after the "tribulation." Clearly, the shaking of the heavens comes after the "tribulation" and this "tribulation" is described as "great" in verse 22. Your theology is chopping up this very fluid discourse and rearranging the parts so that it is barely recognizable.

How is that possible Wormwood when believers are not appointed to wrath. The great tribulation is God's wrath.

Dan 12:1 NIV “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

Matt 24:21-22 NIV For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

John 3:36 NIV "Whoever puts his faith in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see that life, for God's wrath remains on him."

Rom 5:9 NIV Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

Rom 9:22 NIV What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?

1 Thess 1:9-10 NIV for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

1 Thess 5:9-10 NIV For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

Heb 4:3 ESV For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Rev 3:10 NIV Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth

- ATP

 

[Wormwood]

You are assuming "great tribulation" is wrath. I do not share that assumption. John says he is a partner in the "tribulation." Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble, but take heart, I have overcome the world." Paul said we are like "sheep for the slaughter" but the nothing can separate us from the love of Christ. Our trials and tribulations in this world are not the result of God's wrath. Moreover, Jesus is speaking to his disciples as he warns them about the coming tribulation. This would seem ridiculous if they would not need to concern themselves with being a part of it.

 

[HammerStone]

ATP, I think you're getting hung up on some things.

Without rehashing some of the (oft) quoted verses here, one must distinguish between a day and a season.

For instance, one of the favorite passages of Matthew 24 is Matthew 24:6-8:

You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Note the two key phrases:
"Such things must happen, but the end is still to come."
"All these are the beginning of birth pains."

Many of the listings contained in the Bible indicate that we can know things are coming, but they are spoken of in generalities. Wars have ebbed and flowed in our time, but the news and consequences reach us instantly. So is this a matter of perception of specific events, or is this really a matter of the unsettled condition that the world will be in when it moves closer to the return of Jesus? For instance, I've seen my wife give birth twice now. As she experienced contractions, I knew the baby was coming, but I could certainly not predict the minute or hour when he would finally arrive.

I don't see how you conclude anything but the later, that is that these various events are more generalized. Wars (even those on terror) are increasing, but it's not a matter of just two world wars in the 20th century or anything else.

That said, look with me at Matthew 24:32 at the Parable of the Fig Tree.

Matthew 24:32 NIV
Now learn this parable from the fig tree: As soon as its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near.

Summer is a season. When Jesus or any other passages in the NT speak to us knowing a time, we are to know the season. We are to know the signs of the season. You know it's spring when the flowers and trees bloom. You generally know it's summer by fuller foliage, weather patterns, or hot temperatures. You do not, however, know today's date based on any of those things. Even the Farmer's Almanac only can provide one with a range.

These are all signs of the season. This is very different from knowing a specific time and day. So many pro-Rapture people desperately discuss these passages as if they're going to miss some secret sign somewhere or we need to decode history to somehow make Matthew 24:6 speak specifically to the Spanish-American War. Forest, meet tree.

 

[ATP]

You are assuming "great tribulation" is wrath. I do not share that assumption.

I would disagree. There are numerous scriptures that says God's wrath begins on the "day of the Lord". The day of the Lord is when the great tribulation begins.

 

[Wormwood]

I believe the "day of the Lord' indicates a day of his coming presence and judgment. I would encourage you to search the OT for this phrase to get an indication of what the "day of the Lord" was like and consider how these might foreshadow the parousia of Christ.

 

[ATP]

I believe the "day of the Lord' indicates a day of his coming presence and judgment. I would encourage you to search the OT for this phrase to get an indication of what the "day of the Lord" was like and consider how these might foreshadow the parousia of Christ.

And I would encourage you to search the NT for this phrase. The day of the Lord in end times is the beginning of God's wrath.

 

[Wormwood]

I don't disagree with that. I just don't believe in a 3.5 year period of wrath. I think his wrath comes when the Lord appears and people call for the rocks to cover them and hide them from the "wrath of the Lamb." When Christ returns, he rescues his own and judgment falls once and for all on the wicked. We are in the tribulation and we are awaiting the day of the Lord's salvation and judgment.

 

[HammerStone]

2 Peter 3:8 HCSB
Dear friends, don’t let this one thing escape you: With the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

Also that comes to mind because it's easy to take the literal day in our terms and think that it means something much more compact.

Believers do not have things to fear during this time. All of the fear in the Day of the Lord is for unbelievers. Rewind back to Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. The ones working at the return of the master are the ones you want to be, meaning the ones doing the outworking of belief. Those are the people who have nothing to fear in that day.

 

[ATP]

I don't disagree with that. I just don't believe in a 3.5 year period of wrath. I think his wrath comes when the Lord appears and people call for the rocks to cover them and hide them from the "wrath of the Lamb." When Christ returns, he rescues his own and judgment falls once and for all on the wicked. We are in the tribulation and we are awaiting the day of the Lord's salvation and judgment.

We are tribulation birth pains right now. The 3.5 years of God's wrath is found here, this is a future event..

Dan 7:25 NIV He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.

Dan 12:7 NIV The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."

Rev 11:2-3 NIV But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."

Rev 12:6 NIV The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Rev 12:14 NIV The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.

Rev 13:5 NIV The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months.

 

[HammerStone]

Mark 13:20 KJV
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

 

[ATP]

Mark 13:20 KJV
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

The whole chapter of Matt 24 is about birth pains, the day of the Lord and rapture. Matt 24:21 says, "For then there will be great tribulation", not A great tribulation. The term "great tribulation" in Matt 24 is referring to a woman giving birth. The closer we get to rapture and the day of the Lord the more intense the contractions. Also the term "coming of the Son of Man" describes the day of the Lord and rapture. These people were looking for rapture!...

THE DAY OF THE LORD / RAPTURE
Matt 24:3 NIV As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”)

Matt 24:23 NIV At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.

Matt 24:26-27 NIV “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Matt 24:30-31 NIV “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Matt 24:36-44 NIV “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

BIRTH PAINS
Isa 13:6-8 NIV Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty. 7Because of this, all hands will go limp, every heart will melt with fear. 8Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other, their faces aflame.

Isa 26:16-18 NIV Lord, they came to you in their distress; when you disciplined them, they could barely whisper a prayer. 17As a pregnant woman about to give birth writhes and cries out in her pain, so were we in your presence, Lord. 18We were with child, we writhed in labor, but we gave birth to wind. We have not brought salvation to the earth, and the people of the world have not come to life.

Matt 24:4-8 NIV Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Rom 8:22 NIV We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

1 Thess 5:3 NIV While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Rev 12:2 NIV She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.

- ATP

 

[Samael]

the real question is that the book is 2000 years old and every year people say the end is near yet it has not happened will it possibly will it be like the bible says who knows will Jesus come back possibly does any one care no not really its pointless just live the life you got and don't worry about the end as you cant know for certain