Rapture Debate.

[eldios]

Acts 2:1-4 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

This lie was added by religious Catholics who have never heard the voice of God. Most of the New Testament came from religious people under the influence of Satan and the beast who rejected the true gospel of God that God's servants were preaching during the first witness of the millennium reign of Christ. There is very little knowledge of Christ in the New Testament. You will have to listen to the voice of the servant typing this sentence to learn how you're created and what will happen on the day of the Lord. You can learn all about the beast, too, and how we will experience life in the next generation.

Since you believe all the lies ( religious traditions and pagan doctrines ) that were added to the New Testament, you most likely will reject the true gospel of God.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

The agape love that is in believers will never leave us. Neither..

trouble
hardship
persecution
famine
nakedness
danger
sword
death nor life
angels nor demons
the present nor the future
nor any powers
height nor depth
nor anything else in all creation,

will be able to separate us from the love (agape) of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

That is why Jesus Christ is still faithful by still abiding in those wayward & unrepentant saints left behind.

May the Lord help you understand what He is saying here about saved believers having gone astray.

Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

That is why He will go after the lost sheep bought & sealed by Him that gets left behind. Jesus expounds on this point in regards to the church preventing their excommunication at the pre trib rapture event.

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

So as the church excommunicates the unrepentant and wayward believer, so will God at the pre trib rapture event ( unless they repent before He comes ) but His love for them and Him still abiding in them is why He will restore them to the path of righteousness for His name's sake because He is their Good Shepherd.

Is it not the Father's love to chasten every child He receives? Like it or not, not every saved believer will be found abiding in Him when the Bridegroom comes. There are many former believers because of the lies of the evolution theory that may never repent and so the Lord will go after those lost sheep when they get left behind from the Marriage Supper.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

The only perfect person that walked this earth was Jesus. You can't earn Grace.

There is condemnation to those in Christ Jesus if they walk in the flesh. That condemnation is being judged as a reprobate & left behind to become a vessel unto dishonor in His House, but please do note, they are still in His House.

We are saved by grace thru faith in Jesus Christ as our Saviour and thus in living this reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd, we follow Him by grace thru faith in Him in that way as well as by the grace of God we have been saved ans so following Him is by the grace of God too; BUT not every saved believer is trusting Jesus Christ to be their Good Shepherd to help them to follow Him.

Many have placed that relationship on the backburner for the everyday cares of life; some even say, I will follow Jesus later on... I want to live now and party. Does God give grace for believers to live in sin? God forbid it.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

That warning above is not given to unbelievers, but saved believers to be able to escape. That is how believers do not become fruitful as His disciples when they do not live by faith in Him as our Good Shepherd that reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Only in your imagination.

John 20:29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Rom 4:7 "Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.

Rev 19:9 Then the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!" And he added, "These are the true words of God."

Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Was Jesus whistling Dixie here? That warning is given to believers. Some will not be willing to go when the Bridegroom comes.

Luke 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God. 16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many: 17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. 18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. 19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. 20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come. 21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. 22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. 23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

Those saved believers invited were making like Lot's wife as they prefer the cares of this life and their loved ones than to come to the King's supper.

So it is not just iniquity that they can be denied by Him for. They may just plainly be willing not to go.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

What did I write that you interpreted that way? I think you are misinterpreting my words.
Flesh comes from flesh and spirit comes from spirit. (John 3:6)

Flesh has an image. Image comes from image. Spirit does not have an image for the way you mean spirit to mean; therefore image cannot comes from spirit.

I say celestial has an image since Jesus had an image and was seen by men before His incarnation. The Father has a celestial image too. Having an image that can be seen ( and the Son has seen the Father ) is not definitive as always flesh or the state of fallen man.

You have been brainwashed

How do you not know if you are the one brainwashed? Usually when one judge like that, they do so in protesting way too much and be found to be the accused rather than those they accuse.

Ask the Lord to help you stop judging like that because you do not reach any one that way in edifying or even in rebuking. If I was brainwashed, do you really think saying so will make me not brainwashed any more? If I was really brainwashed, then you need to deprogram me, but you are not doing that. Below... you try to correct by scripture, but hey.. judging like that usually turns people off from listening to you any more. Kind of like epic fail on your part, turning people away from listening to what Jesus is saying through the Holy Spirit through you.

to perceive the Garden of Eden story as a "fall" from some "heavenly paradise" but in reality the only place Adam and Eve in the story "fell" from is the place of ignorance and spiritual darkness as they gained the wisdom and knowledge of God and became as gods with the understanding of the gods.
Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

God said and yet He said "us"? So when God asked for the creation of man in their image; then the Father has an image and not just the Son.

So from what spiritual ground were you "taken" and what spiritual ground are you tilling? What are you planting in that ground? Be careful what seeds you sow because you will ultimately reap what you sow in the ground.
Job 4:8 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.
Prov 22:8 He that soweth iniquity shall reap vanity: and the rod of his anger shall fail.
Hos 10:12 Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.

Saying that the Father is more than just Spirit because He has an image also within that One God is not sowing against His words.

Does God send forth immature people who have no knowledge of God to work in the field, till spiritual ground and plant seeds etc or does he send His sons (gods) to do that work?

We know in part and we prophesy in part. New believers can share what they know in truth in according to His words in the KJV and those that err, can be corrected by the word in the KJV either by Him directly or by way of others. There is no perfect believer out there, and Paul did not wait to become perfec before sharing what the Lord would have him share.

Can gods die? Yes they can and do die daily. 1 Cor 15:31 " I die daily" < Think of those words as coming from the Spirit of God within Paul not from a mere person.
Heb 6:6 ........" they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." < Now think of Jesus Christ on the cross being crucified daily by all who call the TRUTH a lie and reject it due to perceiving it as a lie.

Christ dies daily. The crucifixion story is an eternal TRUTH without beginning or end. It is not a one time event that happened only once in history.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

In context, that means it is impossible to crucify the Son of God afresh for that would put Him to an open shame. Christ is not dying daily.

We turn to the same book in another chapter where hopefully, Christ will help you see the truth in His words.

Hebrews 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins...9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: .....18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Christ only need to have died once by Whom we have received the Holy Ghost as a Witness that we are saved. It is this knowledge that if a believer sin willfully after having this knowledge by believing otherwise that there is still a need for sacrifice for sins in order to be saved....hoo boy.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Although many believers today are taking communion in an unworthy manner, they are still His people, but hoo boy. God will judge them for believing that lie. May they repent in time before the Bridegroom comes.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Obviously and preaching a false Christ is one of those very bad things. That very bad thing is done by believers in Christ not by unbelievers in Christ since people who do not believe in Christ do not preach any kind of Christ.
Matt 7:21-23. The people the Lord rejects in that parable are believers not unbelievers. They are people who have called him Lord and claimed to do miracles in his name.

Matthew 7:13-27 is signifying those movements of the "Spirit" where they invoke the "Holy Spirit" to come and fall on them, bringing signs and lying wonders as they do fall down in these movements of the spirit. They went around the Son of God in prayer by addressing the Holy Spirit Whom is not the one answering those prayers or falling on them when He is already in them as promised by faith in Jesus Christ; not by signs.

They are at risk of being left behind at the pre trib rapture, but Jesus shall resurrect them after the great tribulation.

They did not sin by eating anything because they had no knowledge of right and wrong before they partook of that knowledge.
They did not think they knew better than God or anyone.

God told Adam directly; not Eve. That was why Satan tempted Eve to doubt His words by way of Adam and by using Eve's doubts to tempt Adam to doubt His words. So yes, they thought they knew better than what God had actually said. Then after eating, they knew they had done wrong.

They knew nothing at all before they gained knowledge. Their true knowledge of God was gained by experience. To experience something is to partake or eat of it.

Adam knew what God said. Eve took Adam at his word about what God had said. Satan misled Eve of that knowledge to doubt His word.

If it was not in the will of God for them to gain the knowledge of God, why do you think God placed the tree of knowledge in the garden in the first place?
The moral of the story is simply that it costs you your life to gain the knowledge of God.

Actually, the moral of the story is that there is nothing good outside the Word of God nor the Will of God nor outside of God altogether. That is the knowledge gained and the story continues as the Son of God is coming to the rescue to reconcile them back to living with God thru Jesus Christ.

Jesus conveys the same principle in....
Matt 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

That is about being ready & willing to leave the cares & possessions of this life behind when the Bridegroom comes.

Luke 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

That is only a part of how one lives as His disciple. The former portion of that verse is to deny yourself ( as I apply that to mean as being able to follow Him ) thereby leaning on Him all the time if any believer wants to follow after Him.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

That is about the salvation message; Those that have passed on though dead, are not dead by the knowledge of Him, but they shall live.

Gen 3:4-5 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Well.. it is written that the serpent deceived Eve so you have to discern what part of that was a lie or shall we say.. the temptation, anyway.

The serpent (wisdom of God) who knew the same as what God knew, tells people that gaining the knowledge of God will kill them but on the other hand, it will not ultimately kill them but they will become like gods and live forever with the knowledge of God but it will COST them one life to gain another LIFE. It takes death to ignorance to gain knowledge. It takes death to foolishness to gain wisdom. It takes death to sin to gain righteousness. It takes death to darkness to gain light. It takes death to immaturity to gain maturity. You simply cannot gain new life without losing the old life.

I believe the lie of that temptation is thinking that by eating it, they would become as gods, knowing good and evil.

They did not obtain deity by eating that forbidden fruit.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

God is everywhere according to Psalm 139, including in hell. None can ever escape from God. Any concept of separation from God is nonsense since God is through ALL and IN ALL. The word ALL means everything and everywhere.

I shall lean on the Lord to correct my speech since it is true that being in hell or the lake of fire does not mean total separation from God, but certainly total separation from all that is good of God.

God IS the eternally consuming fire.( Deut 4:24, Deut 9:3, Heb 12:29 )

Deuteronomy 4:23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the Lord your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the Lord thy God hath forbidden thee. 24 For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. 25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the Lord thy God, to provoke him to anger: 26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. 27 And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.

I believe consuming fire is referring to His anger; not that He is a consuming fire all the time if you are inferring that He is Hell and the lake of fire which I do not think you are saying that.

Deuteronomy 9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the Lord thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the Lord hath said unto thee.

Again, this consuming fire is His anger in driving them out of the land.

Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

That chapter has the Father chastening those whom He will receive for not resisting sin nor putting away sins with His help before the Bridegroom had come. That small season is the great tribulation. It is His anger that will burn the wood, stubble, and hay that has defiled the temple of God thus He shall give them unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh ( physical death ) so that their spirits may be saved in the day of Christ.

Whether people perceive that fire to be heaven or hell depends on whether they are burned or purified in the fire but either way, all are in the fire for all eternity. The dross is constantly dying or burned and the gold is constantly purified and shines as the PURE LIGHT which emanates from the fire.

There is a Refiner's fire and then there is hell fire, but God is not actually a consuming fire when He is not angry all the time.

As soon as people partake of LIGHT/Revelation/wisdom, it dispels or destroys or brings death to darkness/Ignorance, foolishness. It does it immediately not at some other time many years in the future.
If you have ever experienced the LIGHT or a revelation or an awakening in that "AHA" moment where you wonder why it didn't dawn on you before, you would understand that principle that the darkness flees as soon as the Light arrives not many years later.

Just be open to learning more about Him as He helps me to, otherwise, how can iron sharpens iron?

Physical things were never immortal. They are not meant to be immortal.

I believe the scripture that death can by Adam because of his sin; so that tells me in his original state, he was never going to die. Was he meant to be immortal? No. God knew he would fall. And to prevent him from remaining in that fallen state forever, he was kicked out of Eden from partaking of the tree of life. I do not know of other consequences for eating from that tree of life, but God foreknew that mankind will need Him as Saviour to reconcile them back to God. Eating from the tree of life would have prevented that reconciliation, I would think.

They are constantly changing as the old things are constantly passing away and being replaced with the new. Even in growth, the old, immature passes away and is replaced with new more mature version of something. The same principle applies in the spiritual realm. If it did not, no one would ever grow or change or mature spiritually but stagnate as an ignorant immature "god" who knew absolutely nothing of value.

We are to not have our minds conform to the world, but to the Son; and I confess my need of Him for that and He is helping me & being my shield.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

I fully understand your view point since I once saw and understood like a child too and took things far more literally than is wise but I grew up and put away such childish things.
Once I was blind but NOW I see Christ in the flesh face to face on Earth daily and have no need to wait for any bridegroom to arrive one day since I am already ONE with Him in me and I in Him.

Although it is true He is in you, you are to walk in the light as He is is the exhortation for our daily walk with Him, but we are not quite One with Him yet when we are in this imperfect state to walk not in the light and thus not having fellowship with the Father & the Son.

I hope your eyes are opened to see him face to face on Earth in the flesh every day too and you wake up from your childish dreams about your bridegroom appearing in literal clouds one day.
The perfect LIGHT ( The DAY consisting of darkness and light at all times) IS come in the flesh on Earth every single day for all eternity. That DAY ( LIGHT) is one eternal day( LIGHT) which includes all the temporary days on this planet of the past present and future.

Paul had not written seeing Him face to face daily, but spoke of one day, we shall.

Your eyes may be open to see Christ in believers, but if so.. would you be so readily insulting others earlier if you did?

Matthew 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.....10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

So even when believers go astray, they are considered as the little ones.

Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

So when we minister by His grace & by His help, may we consider how we give the word to others.

Matthew 10:42And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Mark 9:41For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Uhh no. The term "lost" only applies to nonbelievers, those who haven't come to faith in Jesus Christ.

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

1 Cor 15:12-19 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

Like it or not, not every saved believer will be found abiding in Him when the Bridegroom comes.

Like it or not, if you are truly born again your sins are covered. Notice the word "believed" here. What are we believing in here, our works or the finished work of the cross?

John 20:29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Rom 4:7 "Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.

Rev 19:9 Then the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!" And he added, "These are the true words of God."

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Uhh no. The term "lost" only applies to nonbelievers, those who haven't come to faith in Jesus Christ.

Nope. Read the whole message, brother, as MOREOVER ties what He has just said to those who go astray in the church.

Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

It cannot be unbelievers because they are not of His sheep to be called His sheep. Jesus said in verse 12 that a man HAS a hundred sheep and one goes astray. It is prophesied that some shall depart from faith in these latter days.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

That is the falling away spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter that says that has to happen first before the Bridegroom comes and then He will come to deal with that son of perdition at the end of the great tribulation.

So as the church excommunicates the unrepentant believer, so will God do it at the pre trib rapture event, unless he repents with His help & by His grace before the Bridegroom comes.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Nope. Read the whole message, brother, as MOREOVER ties what He has just said to those who go astray in the church.

Notice Paul compares being lost and being dead in the grave to Jesus resurrection. Are you gonna preach to the dead in the grave too? You either believe or you don't.

1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.

It cannot be unbelievers because they are not of His sheep to be called His sheep. Jesus said in verse 12 that a man HAS a hundred sheep and one goes astray. It is prophesied that some shall depart from faith in these latter days.

Jesus is actually referring to lost Jews, it has nothing to do with Gentiles.

Matt 10:6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

Matt 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

That is the falling away spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter that says that has to happen first before the Bridegroom comes and then He will come to deal with that son of perdition at the end of the great tribulation.

So as the church excommunicates the unrepentant believer, so will God do it at the pre trib rapture event, unless he repents with His help & by His grace before the Bridegroom comes.

No not really. 2 Thess 2 falling away is actually referring to rapture.

1 Tim 4:1 is referring to apostates who were never born again. The word apostacy or apostate is mentioned 66 times in the commentaries..

1 Timothy 4:1 Commentaries: But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

You either have the root of salvation, or you don't.. is what it comes down too. Timothy is also making a distinction between believers and nonbelievers in 1 Tim 4:3, 10-11

1 Tim 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon (aphistémi) the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

Luke 8:11-15 “This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away (aphistémi). 14The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Notice Paul compares being lost and being dead in the grave to Jesus resurrection. Are you gonna preach to the dead in the grave too? You either believe or you don't.

1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.



Jesus is actually referring to lost Jews, it has nothing to do with Gentiles.

Matt 10:6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

Matt 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."



No not really. 2 Thess 2 falling away is actually referring to rapture.

1 Tim 4:1 is referring to apostates who were never born again. The word apostacy or apostate is mentioned 66 times in the commentaries..

1 Timothy 4:1 Commentaries: But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

You either have the root of salvation, or you don't.. is what it comes down too. Timothy is also making a distinction between believers and nonbelievers in 1 Tim 4:3, 10-11

1 Tim 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon (aphistémi) the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

Luke 8:11-15 “This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away (aphistémi). 14The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

Well, it certainly seems like you have made up your mind about this, and so we agree to disagree.

 

[eldios]

You're in for a rude awakening.



Only to those who believe in the resurrection and are born again, but you don't believe. So I'm assuming the heaven you're referring to is from some new age meditation cd or something, or the Opera Winfrey show?

The flesh named Skyangel will perish but the created man where her consciousness was created will remain. All the visible images and thoughts that made up her and her body are from Satan and the beast so all flesh must perish during this temporary generation. Whatever flesh is left on the day of the Lord will perish together in one hour after the earth beings to shake violently just before the hot molten lava melts all the good and evil images on earth. Then a new heaven and earth will replace the old and all created men will hear the voice of God speaking into their consciousness ( the mind ).

John 5:
25: "Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26: For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself,
27: and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man.
28: Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Well, it certainly seems like you have made up your mind about this, and so we agree to disagree.

Are you starting to understand now?
If Christ wasn't raised then those that are already dead are lost.
Christ paid the sin penalty in full.
Our sins are forgiven at the cross! Past, present and future.

1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

There is condemnation to those in Christ Jesus if they walk in the flesh. That condemnation is being judged as a reprobate & left behind to become a vessel unto dishonor in His House, but please do note, they are still in His House.

1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, then your faith is useless and you are still guilty of your sins.

Thank God that Christ rose, huh.

 

[skyangel]

Flesh has an image. Image comes from image. Spirit does not have an image for the way you mean spirit to mean; therefore image cannot comes from spirit.

I say celestial has an image since Jesus had an image and was seen by men before His incarnation. The Father has a celestial image too. Having an image that can be seen ( and the Son has seen the Father ) is not definitive as always flesh or the state of fallen man.

Of course there are celestial bodies which have physical aspects. Everything out in space is a celestial body..eg. the moon, stars, sun, comets, asteroids, all planets, etc.
All physical things can have an image as they can be reflected or mirrored in any shiny surface. An image is merely a reflection of something. However, an image of something is not the real thing, eg, an image of an apple is not a real apple. It is merely a reflection or a picture of an apple which cannot nourish you like a real apple can.
The Father is a SPIRIT. Spirit has no physical image in the sense of having a visible reflection. The only way anyone can recognise a SPIRIT is by the way it manifest through a body like LOVE or hate manifests through a body but the manifestation is not the image.
The "image" is the way you perceive, judge and interpret the manifestation in your own mind. It becomes a mental image.
When you see LOVE manifesting in human flesh for example, you see God in the flesh IF God IS LOVE. Anyone who has seen LOVE has seen God. However, what one person might see, perceive, judge and interpret as a manifestation of Love, another might not see the same way at all.
Therefore any "image" of SPIRIT becomes a very subjective thing.

How do you not know if you are the one brainwashed? Usually when one judge like that, they do so in protesting way too much and be found to be the accused rather than those they accuse.

Because once I was where you are and thought like you do but I grew up and gained understanding and revelation which set me free from childish beliefs. Once I was a child and thought like a child but when I became mature I put away childish things and understood the difference between fact and fantasy.
It works much the same way as you know you are no longer brainwashed or deluded into believing in fairies or Santa or Easter bunny etc. When you mature, you grow out of those childish beliefs and fantasies and you understand the difference between the reality of a concept and the fictional aspect of a concept.

Ask the Lord to help you stop judging like that because you do not reach any one that way in edifying or even in rebuking. If I was brainwashed, do you really think saying so will make me not brainwashed any more? If I was really brainwashed, then you need to deprogram me, but you are not doing that. Below... you try to correct by scripture, but hey.. judging like that usually turns people off from listening to you any more. Kind of like epic fail on your part, turning people away from listening to what Jesus is saying through the Holy Spirit through you.

Jesus also judged and rebuked hypocrites in exactly the same way. Some repented and some did not.
Telling you that you are brainwashed will cause you to consider the possibility of it. Telling you that you are still thinking like a child will also cause you to consider the possibility of that, especially if you wish to mature mentally and spiritually. You did not get to where you are overnight and deprogramming you will not happen overnight either.
I merely plant seeds. It takes time for good seed to grow in good ground. Not all will grow because not all falls on fertile soil.
As for quoting scripture, many demand scripture before they will listen to anything and yet there are some who demand scripture and still refuse to listen to it anyway as they themselves quote scripture to try to correct others.
The irony in it all is that it makes no difference what scriptures are quoted, the blind still refuse to see anything except what they want to see.

 

[skyangel]

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

In context, that means it is impossible to crucify the Son of God afresh for that would put Him to an open shame. Christ is not dying daily.

You are totally misinterpreting that. It does not say it is impossible to crucify the Son of God afresh.. It says it is impossible to renew those who have fallen away to repentance BECAUSE those who fall away crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh. It means those who fall away are crucifying the Son of God afresh in their own hearts daily.
That scripture is not talking about crucifying a literal man daily. It is talking about crucifying TRUTH daily. The Son of the Spirit of TRUTH is also TRUTH since TRUTH only has one offspring ( "only begotten son") and that offspring IS the same TRUTH as the Spirit of TRUTH.
When you call TRUTH a lie or reject the TRUTH, you are crucifying the TRUTH in your own heart and mind and the more you cling to false doctrines and false Christs, the more you become blinded and hardened to the TRUTH as a consequence of your own rejection of it.

Christ only need to have died once by Whom we have received the Holy Ghost as a Witness that we are saved. It is this knowledge that if a believer sin willfully after having this knowledge by believing otherwise that there is still a need for sacrifice for sins in order to be saved....hoo boy.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Although many believers today are taking communion in an unworthy manner, they are still His people, but hoo boy. God will judge them for believing that lie. May they repent in time before the Bridegroom comes.

No literal individual physical "bridegroom" is ever coming to planet Earth in literal clouds.
If you are waiting for such a person to arrive on Earth, you need to repent of your idolatry and worship of a false Christ.
To sin against the TRUTH is to reject it and call it a lie. Christ is not a man but is the SPIRIT of TRUTH and LIFE. That SPIRIT is always on Earth in the flesh in all of LIFE since none can live without the Spirit of LIFE in them and all Life is TRUTH in in the flesh itself even if that flesh as in human flesh does not tell the Truth at all times but is self deceived and deluded due to idolising a false Christ in the form of a man.

All who are ONE with Christ are already "married" to him in Spirit and are already one flesh and have no need to be waiting for a literal bridegroom to arrive on Earth so they can have a literal wedding.
"What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder"
Judgement day is every day for all eternity.
The "wedding supper" is also every day for all eternity.
Becoming ONE with God is also an every day event in the Spirit for all eternity since the "bride" is an eternal bride which keeps living and dying daily.

 

[skyangel]

That is a prophesy. Not a symbolism.



2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

I know that Paul believes this:

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But Paul is referring to being with the risen & ascended Lord Jesus Christ whre He is now in His Father's mansion where Jesus had promised He would take us there after preparing a place for us.



Jesus Christ is in me and is with me always BUT I shall see Him as promised when He appears as the Bridegroom in taking me Home above.

Dream on dreamer. No literal man is ever coming to Earth in literal clouds. That is a childish fantasy which you need to grow out of.
Don't you know and understand that YOU are the mansion, house, temple, of the Lord? 1 Cor 6:19
In the Fathers house (Household) are many mansions (temples, bodies, vessels, abodes, dwelling places, )
If you happen to be a vessel which is filled with the Holy Ghost, you become a dwelling place, an abode, a mansion in which the Spirit abides after he prepares your heart (the place) to receive him and become ONE with him in the flesh of your body.
There is no literal mansion in the sky waiting for you. That concept is a fairy tale notion of a child. It's time for you to grow out of such childish fantasies.

 

[Angelina]

You are totally misinterpreting that. It does not say it is impossible to crucify the Son of God afresh.. It says it is impossible to renew those who have fallen away to repentance BECAUSE those who fall away crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh. It means those who fall away are crucifying the Son of God afresh in their own hearts daily.
That scripture is not talking about crucifying a literal man daily. It is t. The bible tells us that he diedlking about crucifying TRUTH daily. The Son of the Spirit of TRUTH is also TRUTH since TRUTH only has one offspring ( "only begotten son") and that offspring IS the same TRUTH as the Spirit of TRUTH.
When you call TRUTH a lie or reject the TRUTH, you are crucifying the TRUTH in your own heart and mind and the more you cling to false doctrines and false Christs, the more you become blinded and hardened to the TRUTH as a consequence of your own rejection of it.

skyangel it is impossible to crucify the Son of God afresh. The bible teaches us that he died once, for all who believe in him by faith. Salvation is a revelation of that truth. it is not something to be grasped, understood received in the heart only to be rejected again and again. it is a one time message for all people. You either accept his salvation message or you do not. There is no middle ground. Jesus is a literal person [a living being] who came in the flesh and returned to his kingdom in the spirit. Your theology is in error.

 

[skyangel]

Deuteronomy 4:23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the Lord your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the Lord thy God hath forbidden thee. 24 For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. 25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the Lord thy God, to provoke him to anger: 26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. 27 And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.

Christians have made a graven image of Jesus Christ. Some Christian churches even have statues of the man on the cross. Others have graven the image of the man on their minds and worship it as an invisible graven image.
It is wrong to worship the man Jesus or any man as God since God is the invisible Spirit of LIFE and Truth which has no shape or form of its own but simply manifests through ALL forms of life. To imagine any form of life as God and worship that form as God is sheer childish idolatry.

I believe consuming fire is referring to His anger; not that He is a consuming fire all the time if you are inferring that He is Hell and the lake of fire which I do not think you are saying that.

An eternally consuming fire is a consuming fire all the time for all eternity. It is not a temporary fire.
The God character in the bible is ALWAYS angry with the wicked and always judging the righteous every day for all eternity.
Psalm 7:11

That chapter has the Father chastening those whom He will receive for not resisting sin nor putting away sins with His help before the Bridegroom had come. That small season is the great tribulation. It is His anger that will burn the wood, stubble, and hay that has defiled the temple of God thus He shall give them unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh ( physical death ) so that their spirits may be saved in the day of Christ.

The "great tribulation" is simply figurative of the pressure, inner trouble, anguish that people go through in their own lives when they come face to face with the Truth and continue to reject it. It is not some physical future event that will happen at the same time for all people on Earth.
The "day of Christ" is every single day on Earth for all eternity. It is one eternal day without beginning or end. The "day of Christ" is not limited to a beginning at some "future time" like some preachers and false prophets would like you to believe as they convince you to follow and idolise the false Christ as a man with supernatural powers.

There is a Refiner's fire and then there is hell fire, but God is not actually a consuming fire when He is not angry all the time.

As I pointed out in Psalm 7:11 God is angry with the wicked all the time. The anger against the wicked is an eternal righteous anger.
The metaphorical eternally consuming fire never goes out since it is eternally consuming. That consuming fire is not a different fire to the refining fire. There is only ONE eternally consuming fire. You do not have one fire to refine gold and a different fire to consume dross. The same fire does both things at the very same time.

I believe the scripture that death can by Adam because of his sin; so that tells me in his original state, he was never going to die. Was he meant to be immortal? No. God knew he would fall. And to prevent him from remaining in that fallen state forever, he was kicked out of Eden from partaking of the tree of life. I do not know of other consequences for eating from that tree of life, but God foreknew that mankind will need Him as Saviour to reconcile them back to God. Eating from the tree of life would have prevented that reconciliation, I would think.

What does the tree of life represent to you ?
Do you realise it represents wisdom in the bible? Prov 3:13-18
Do you also realise there was ONLY ONE TREE not two trees in the middle of the garden in the story of Eden?
Gen 3:3
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Compare with Gen 2:9....."; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden,"
and Gen 3:6...." and a tree to be desired to make one wise,"

You only need to partake of the tree of life and gain wisdom, life and the knowledge of God, once but it will cost you your life of darkness, ignorance and foolishness.
Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Matt 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:...
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Both the serpent in the Eden story and Jesus in the NT story promise "You will not die." IF you trust and believe them.
Both could be claimed to be liars since all people including Jesus in the story died.
Both could be claimed to be also telling the Truth if they are merely talking about the eternal life of the eternal spirit within the mortal body. That spirit cannot die in the first place since it is an immortal and eternal Spirit of LIFE. The word immortal means cannot die.

We are to not have our minds conform to the world, but to the Son; and I confess my need of Him for that and He is helping me & being my shield.

Then why do you conform to the false doctrines and traditions of the religious world ?
Phil 2:5-8 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Jesus did not think it was robbing God of anything to be equal with God. If you are of the same mind, you will also not think it is robbing God of anything to be equal with Him. Christianity seems to teach it is an evil sin and prideful to think you are equal with God or to try to be equal with God. They seem to teach the devil fell from heaven because he wanted to be equal with God but how is it prideful to make oneself of no reputation, take on the form of a servant, become like the most foolish of the fools on Earth, the most despised and rejected person you can think of? That is not pride at all. It is humility to make yourself equal with the worst person you can think of on Earth and allow others to judge you and falsely accuse you of all kinds of things while still not condemning them for what they do because you understand they are clueless.

 

[skyangel]

Although it is true He is in you, you are to walk in the light as He is is the exhortation for our daily walk with Him, but we are not quite One with Him yet when we are in this imperfect state to walk not in the light and thus not having fellowship with the Father & the Son.

Speak for yourself. I am one with the TRUTH and LIFE at all times.

Paul had not written seeing Him face to face daily, but spoke of one day, we shall.

Your eyes may be open to see Christ in believers, but if so.. would you be so readily insulting others earlier if you did?

I insult no one any more than Jesus insulted the religious leaders by calling them children of the devil.
Not all professing believers actually believe in the real Christ or follow his sinless example. Most of them are following a false Christ as they continue in their sins.

Matthew 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.....10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

So even when believers go astray, they are considered as the little ones.

Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

So when we minister by His grace & by His help, may we consider how we give the word to others.

Matthew 10:42And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Mark 9:41For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

Did Jesus consider how he gave the word to others when he told the Pharisees who claimed to be believers in God that they were blind fools? Was that offending "little ones"? Was he building them up or telling them they were wise for believing in God? Was he encouraging their belief in God?
If a child is offended by being told to grow up, they need to get a LIFE and actually grow up and stop whining about having hurt egos.