Rapture Debate.

[n2thelight]

skyangel

It's impossible to get those who are Brain Washed into believing in the so called Rapture. Even unto giving Scripture, Gods own words telling them he is against it. Ezekiel 13;20-21

That's because they are not meant to know,as they won't be judged in ignorance,that's why Gd will send them that spirit of slumber,so that they may believe the LIE!!!!!!

 

[n2thelight]

The millennium reign of Jesus on Earth is also a false doctrine.
No physical man is ever coming down from the sky in literal clouds to physically reign on Earth at any time.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

If he ever did come to reign on the physical Earth, Everyone would be able to say Christ is "here" or "there" or in Jerusalem or wherever else he might happen to be on the day but that will never happen. Scripture says do not believe anyone who says he is in any particular location. If that is true yesterday and Today, it will still be true Tomorrow and for all eternity.

Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

Matt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

As for God dwelling on Earth, according to scripture he is already dwelling on Earth since he is everywhere at all times.

Psalm 139:7-8 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

How you figure His reign is not on earth,as His feet shall stand on that Day on the Mount of Olives?

John 18:36 "Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence."

Jesus is explaining to Pilate that His kingdom is not of this world age. He did not come as a king in this world age but as a Savior to mankind. Jesus is telling him that this is not His second advent, for on the second advent all of Christ's servants will come to make things right, and put down all evil. On that second coming Jesus will come as King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.

Christ is not on earth yet ,His Holy Spirit is.

The point of you Matt 24 verses is the fact that,if someone has to tell you Christ is here,He isn't.

As for the physical man,at the 7th and last trump the physical is gone,as flesh and blood cannot enter that kingdom,we shall be in our spiritual bodies

 

[n2thelight]

If you cannot see him today in the flesh on Earth you are still as blind as a bat.

We walk by faith not by sight,so do tell where is He on earth now?

Acts 3:20 "And He shall send Jesus Christ, Which before was preached unto you:"

We are talking about the second advent here, when that office of Savior will be filled, and God will send His Son again. But there is a very special time that must come first, when Michael and his angels cast Satan and his angels to the earth, for that five month period.

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

Christ must remain in heaven until the times of restitution of all things. The "restitution of all things" is "Apokatastasis" in the Greek, and means the re-establishment of all things from a state of ruin. All the prophets have talked of this time of the Millennium since this world age begin.

It is written that on the first day of the Millennium age, at Christ's return, every knee shall bow to Christ. Romans 14:11; "For it is written, "As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God." Jesus is quoting here from Isaiah 45:22, 23; "Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." [22] "I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear." [23]

This will continue for a thousand years of the Millennium age, then people will again get a little lazy, and God will release Satan again to test the people before the end shall come. There will be no restitution after this thousand years, but only a path way into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:14, 15; "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire, This is the second death[of the soul]." [14] "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." [15]

The subject is the restitution on the first day of the Millennium, of sensibility and God will turly bring it back. People will worship Christ then

 

[n2thelight]

I am afraid you are the one in error as long as you idolise a physical person.
If you are talking about a physical man as the"Son of God", it is obvious that any man can only physically die once. However, I am not talking about a physical man because God is not a man and neither is the Son of God. The "son of man" is a physical person but the "son of man" did not take away your sins or die for your sins. He merely set an example to follow and that example is to die for your own sins or allow others to crucify you for what they see as sin in your life.
God is a SPIRIT and as a SPIRIT can be "crucified" daily yet still live at the same time. People crucify the Spirit of TRUTH in their hearts and minds all the time when they call the TRUTH a lie and reject it due to perceiving it as a lie.
Physical shedding of physical blood cannot save any person from anything, regardless of who or what they believe is the sacrificial lamb, bull or scapegoat.
Heb 10:4... For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
It is also not possible for the physical blood of a physical man to take away anyones sins.

Jer 31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
Deut 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

The principle in the above scripture applies in the spiritual as well as the physical aspects of life.
Jesus death and resurrection story is simply a lesson with morals and principles which readers need to learn in order to follow them.

Where did you get physical blood in Heb 10:4?

Hebrews 10:4 "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins."

It was never possible for the blood of any animal to take away sin, but it was a temporary covering for that year. The reason for the inability of the blood of animals to cover sin, is the fact the Holy Spirit was not brought from the blood of any animal. For it is that Holy Spirit teaches, guides and comforts us in our daily lives. That Holy Spirit is the One who stands between you and your enemies.

It is good to have a conscience, for our conscience allows us to see when we fall short of God's law. When you break any law you fall short of the whole law. The law is good, but it is the man that is the sinner.

Hebrews 10:5 "Wherefore when He cometh into the world, He saith, "Sacrifice and offering Thou wouldest not, but a body hast Thou prepared Me:"

"Thou prepared Me" by opening my ears to hear the Word and understand the truths therein. This is taken from Psalm 40:6-8: and notice that in Hebrews where Paul left out, "..Mine ears hast Thou opened..". Verse five sets the platform for the rest of the verses.

Psalm 40:5 "Many, O Lord my God, are Thy wonderful works which Thou hast done, And Thy thoughts which are to us-ward: They cannot be reckoned up in order unto Thee: If I would declare and speak of them, They are more than can be numbered."

God works and His thinking of us is the Word of God, and those thoughts and deeds by God are more than can be numbered.

Psalm 40: 6 "Sacrifice and offering Thou didst not desire; Mine ears hast Thou opened: Burnt offering and sin offering hast Thou not required"

This is the verse that Paul quoted from, but he left the one part out. Paul didn't quote this part, because in the time of David's writing, their ears were not opened yet, because the Holy Spirit had not yet been sent, and Christ had not come yet. Paul ears and his eyes were opened to all the truth but theirs were not. God does not want your burnt offerings, but He wants your love.

Psalm 40:7 "Then said I, "Lo, I come: In the volume of the book it is written of me,"

From cover to cover, the entire Word of God reflects the coming of the promised Messiah, Jesus Christ. Whatever you need to know about Christ is written within these pages. Our Heavenly Father hid nothing from those that want to study His book, and know all there is to know about the Messiah Jesus Christ. If you don't have Christ's thoughts and instruction through His Word, then how are you going to know what is required to please Him?

Psalm 40:8 "I delight to do Thy will, O my God: Yea, Thy law is within my heart."

Psalm 40:9 "I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: Lo, I have not refrained my lips, O Lord, Thou knowest."

Psalm 40:10 "I have not hid Thy righteousness within my Heart; I have declared Thy faithfulness and Thy salvation:"

Psalm 40:11 "Withhold not Thou Thy tender mercies from me, O Lord: Let Thy loving kindness and Thy truth continually preserve me."

Hebrews 10:6 "In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin Thou hast had no pleasure."

Burning an animal on an altar could please no one, but it was a shadow of something that would come later. It was a type of would happen when Christ willfully was sent to the cross to die. When they would put their animal on the altar, it meant that they had to take their best animal, and through their sacrifice it became a contribution to the Father.

Hebrews 10:7 "Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of Me) to do Thy will, O God."

Everything that Jesus did and said while on earth, was written in the Old Testament, and that why He said over and over, "Haven't you read...", "It is written...", and so on. Every detail was written about Jesus' coming, how His birth would be and where. All parts of His life, and even to the words that the High Priest that caused His death at the time of the crucifixion. How can you not believe in Christ when God so perfectly outlined the coming Messiah that He would send.

Hebrews 10:8 "Above when He said, "Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin Thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein;" which are offered by the law;"

Paul was quoting, as we read from Psalm 40:6-8. What our Lord is saying in that fortieth Psalm is; "I don't want your animals and your sacrifices, but I want your love."

Hebrews 10:9 "Then said He, "Lo, I come to do Thy will, O God," He taketh away the first, that He may establish the second."

God did take away the first [the blood sacrifices and ordinances] when His Son went to the cross. With the death of Christ on the cross the establishment of the second was completed.He took those blood sacrifices and ordinances away because the blood of Christ paid the price for one and all times. God did not take away the law, but the blood sacrifices and those things that were required under those ordinances. No blood sacrifice can sent the Holy Spirit, for it is dead and gone. But at Christ death, the Holy Spirit did come and it warms the heart of everyone that He touches.

Hebrews 10:10 "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

The blood of animals did not sanctify or make perfect anyone. But the blood of Christ, through our repentance removes all sins from us, and makes us perfect in the eyes of our Heavenly Father. We are sanctified through the Spirit of the One that was sacrificed on the cross.

 

[skyangel]

How you figure His reign is not on earth,as His feet shall stand on that Day on the Mount of Olives?

John 18:36 "Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence."

Jesus is explaining to Pilate that His kingdom is not of this world age. He did not come as a king in this world age but as a Savior to mankind. Jesus is telling him that this is not His second advent, for on the second advent all of Christ's servants will come to make things right, and put down all evil. On that second coming Jesus will come as King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.

Christ is not on earth yet ,His Holy Spirit is.

The point of you Matt 24 verses is the fact that,if someone has to tell you Christ is here,He isn't.

As for the physical man,at the 7th and last trump the physical is gone,as flesh and blood cannot enter that kingdom,we shall be in our spiritual bodies

Christ and the Holy Spirit are merely different labels for the very same thing. They are ONE. Therefore to believe that one is on Earth and the other is not is as ridiculous as claiming LIFE is on Earth without a physical body to manifest itself in.
IF Christ is not on Earth yet in your perception, then Christ cannot be in you either since you are on Earth.
IF Christ is IN YOU and you are on Earth, then Christ is on Earth in YOUR FLESH.

 

[skyangel]

We walk by faith not by sight,so do tell where is He on earth now?

He (The TRUTH and LIFE and LIGHT ) Is everywhere in the flesh all around you. Just open your eyes, take a good look and SEE.
There is no need to walk by blind faith.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

 

[n2thelight]

Christ and the Holy Spirit are merely different labels for the very same thing. They are ONE. Therefore to believe that one is on Earth and the other is not is as ridiculous as claiming LIFE is on Earth without a physical body to manifest itself in.
IF Christ is not on Earth yet in your perception, then Christ cannot be in you either since you are on Earth.
IF Christ is IN YOU and you are on Earth, then Christ is on Earth in YOUR FLESH.

So if He's already here ,why does He need to come back?

 

[n2thelight]

It's easy for me to see how and why the whole world will be deceived...

 

[skyangel]

So if He's already here ,why does He need to come back?

The LIGHT of the world (Revelation) returns daily in the same way as the LIGHT from the East (SUN) shines to the West. (Matt 24:27)
It "returns" to bring light to those who live in darkness and to wake up those who are sleeping. It is a constant cycle which is constantly repeating itself. Those who are awake and already walking in the LIGHT are not waiting for a person to arrive in the sky one day. They understand that the LIGHT of the world is always on Earth in physical form regardless of who can see it and who cannot.
YOU ARE the LIGHT of the WORLD. Matt 5:14
You just need the revelation of who and what YOU actually are. Once you come to that realisation, you will not be waiting for another "light" to arrive.

 

[n2thelight]

The LIGHT of the world (Revelation) returns daily in the same way as the LIGHT from the East (SUN) shines to the West. (Matt 24:27)
It "returns" to bring light to those who live in darkness and to wake up those who are sleeping. It is a constant cycle which is constantly repeating itself. Those who are awake and already walking in the LIGHT are not waiting for a person to arrive in the sky one day. They understand that the LIGHT of the world is always on Earth in physical form regardless of who can see it and who cannot.
YOU ARE the LIGHT of the WORLD. Matt 5:14
You just need the revelation of who and what YOU actually are. Once you come to that realisation, you will not be waiting for another "light" to arrive.

Wow! okay....
So is it your view that Christ will not return?

 

[bbyrd009]

whew.

 

[bbyrd009]

So if He's already here ,why does He need to come back?

now you're getting it!

 

[rockytopva]

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. - Matthew 24:36

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. - Matthew 24:42

We know not the hour when the Lord comes, so we are commanded to watch. If this was post trib there would be no need of watching, as it would be obvious. And... It would be rather a quick trip to rise with him when he is already returning to earth?

The disturbing thing about the post trib view is it makes it rather obvious that Christ is not returning to earth anytime soon, so why watch for it? These people normally end up in the partying scenes of nightclubs and bars.

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15

A thief comes in time unlooked for, like unto the times of Noah, and like unto the times of Lot. I would say there will be a lot of unhappy post-tribbers on that day!

 

[bbyrd009]

"like unto?"

ok

got a date for us, perhaps? "that day?" the current most pop prognostication is Sept 15th 2017 or so, whaddya think?

 

[101G]

So if He's already here ,why does He need to come back?

now you're getting it!

excellent question, he's here by Spirit, and now sits in bodily form, (in diversity) in heaven as advocate, and high priest. scripture, Psalms 110:1 "A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool". in Revelation chapters 4, 5 these chapters identify why he sits. and in bodily form, when the Kingdom is delivered up (1 Corinthians 15:24) he comes in person where evey eye will see him, (Revelation 1:7). again the diversity of God explain the two fold return of the Lord Jesus. 1st return in Spirit, (no eyes see him). the second return in bodily form (every eye see him).

 

[Truth]

Just reading the last page in this forum, and there seems to be a tug of war over where our Savior is, according to the scriptures, when He was among us in his ministry, [no I wasn't there], he said to His disciples, that to see him was to see God. he was here in the flesh, and after his death He was Flesh and Bone, remember Tomas. He walked to emmaus with two of His depressed disciples sat down with them broke bread and vanished before their eyes,and then while the two were trying to explain to the other disciples what they had just experienced, Our Savior appeared in their midst. A body that they could touch, yet He could vanish. Absent! Present! He said that He would not leave us without a comforter, His Spirit sent by the Father, the Fathers Spirit! and NOW He sits at the right hand of OUR Father in His Throne Room, in the Kingdom of Heaven. He said he would return, and that every one would see Him cumming in the Clouds with Power and Great Glory. The Words of our God and Our Savior will come to pass,If He is on Earth than He, HIS spirit is in you here on Earth that's the Promise! and His Return is a Promise! there isn't a mystery here, the Scriptures are truth. Be watchful, the time is cumming that we will lift up our heads and behold our Redemption draws nigh. I pray that I live to see Him cumming with Power and Great Glory.

 

[ScottA]

Just reading the last page in this forum, and there seems to be a tug of war over where our Savior is, according to the scriptures, when He was among us in his ministry, [no I wasn't there], he said to His disciples, that to see him was to see God. he was here in the flesh, and after his death He was Flesh and Bone, remember Tomas. He walked to emmaus with two of His depressed disciples sat down with them broke bread and vanished before their eyes,and then while the two were trying to explain to the other disciples what they had just experienced, Our Savior appeared in their midst. A body that they could touch, yet He could vanish. Absent! Present! He said that He would not leave us without a comforter, His Spirit sent by the Father, the Fathers Spirit! and NOW He sits at the right hand of OUR Father in His Throne Room, in the Kingdom of Heaven. He said he would return, and that every one would see Him cumming in the Clouds with Power and Great Glory. The Words of our God and Our Savior will come to pass,If He is on Earth than He, HIS spirit is in you here on Earth that's the Promise! and His Return is a Promise! there isn't a mystery here, the Scriptures are truth. Be watchful, the time is cumming that we will lift up our heads and behold our Redemption draws nigh. I pray that I live to see Him cumming with Power and Great Glory.

Welcome Truth!

Since this is a Rapture thread, I will take the opportunity to clarify His coming (His return). If Christ has come to you in spirit - He has come already. Likewise, if you have died to self, then it is not you who lives, but Christ who lives in you - He has come already. He has returned [already]. This is the second coming: first the flesh, then the spirit.

The so called Rapture then, because of its rapturous experience, is that moment when the silver cord is cut and you are no more in the body but present with the Lord.

 

[DPMartin]

well it seems more often then not, such subjects are used for distraction rather then focus on the real need to know.

thing is, this subject seems to always exclude resurrection, isn't it Paul who says something to the order of:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

so really the subject of "when Jesus cometh-th-th" (to much KJV) understood as rapture or not, the resurrection must come to pass before we who might remain are caught up.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Thi

Since you believe all the lies ( religious traditions and pagan doctrines ) that were added to the New Testament, you most likely will reject the true gospel of God.

You would have to know the Lord in order to know the gospel and you clearly don't. Those of us who have recieved Him worship an omnipotent God, not some liar unable to even preserve His word. Drop the fantasy and confess your sin to this community and to God before it's too late. The testimony is nearly complete, judgment is begun, the days are getting short. Turn to Him and live.

 

[Truth]

Eldios--- do you claim a faith, tried to contact you on a profile page, but none available?