Rapture, Prophecy, Church, and the Nation of Israel- Last Generation

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Marcus O'Reillius

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n2thelight said:
More of the same people from chapter 7
No, I don't think so.
The Martyrs are not the same people as the Great Multitude.



n2thelight said:
Now,do tell how did these people get to Heaven?
Now you want me to tell you how God does something. I have already said that God rarely ever tells us HOW He does anything!

As to the Martyrs, their place is literally capped by a "Glass Ceiling."
When the floor of the Temple of the Father in Heaven, the "third" Heaven; becomes transparent with the opening of the fifth Seal - John sees them for the first time.

The Martyrs are not quite IN Heaven... they are NOT in the presence of the Father at His same level like the 24 Elders, the four Living Creatures, and the multitude of Angels.

I count the Martyrs as being in the "second" Heaven.
They have a special dispensation in that they have paid the ultimate price for their faith.
The Great Multitude's Dead in Christ would then be all those Saints who died normal deaths, like your grandmother.
And a small minority of the Great Multitude don't die at all, so they can't be Martyrs.
 

keras

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n2thelight said:
I feel that the 6 seal 6 trump and 6th vial as well as the 7 seal 7 trump and 7th vial happen around the same time
It is wrong and unnecessary to shuffle the sequence of Revelation.
 

Heb 13:8

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Underline: Rapture on the Day of the Lord

Matt 24:42-44 NIV “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

1 Thess 5:2 NIV for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

2 Pet 3:10 NIV But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Underline: The Day of the Lord is rapture and also God's wrath.

Isa 13:9 NIV See, the day of the LORD is coming —a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger— to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it.

Eze 7:19 NIV “ ‘They will throw their silver into the streets, and their gold will be treated as a thing unclean. Their silver and gold will not be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath. It will not satisfy their hunger or fill their stomachs, for it has caused them to stumble into sin.

Zep 1:18 NIV Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them on the day of the LORD's wrath.” In the fire of his jealousy the whole earth will be consumed, for he will make a sudden end of all who live on the earth.

Zep 2:2 NIV before the decree takes effect and that day passes like windblown chaff, before the LORD's fierce anger comes upon you, before the day of the LORD's wrath comes upon you.

Rev 6:15-17 NIV Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?

Underline: Rapture on the Day of the Lord after sixth seal. Sun, moon, stars, earthquake.

Isa 13:10 NIV The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.

Isa 34:4 NIV All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

Joel 2:30-31 NIV I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 31The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

Joel 3:14-15 NIV Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. 15The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine.

Matt 24:29 NIV “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

Mark 13:24 NIV "But in those days, following that distress, "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

Luke 21:25-28 NIV “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Acts 2:19-20 NIV I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 20The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.

2 Pet 3:10 NIV But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Rev 6:12-14 NIV I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Underline: Heavens rolled up like a scroll, fig tree, nonbelievers hiding in caves.

Isa 2:19 NIV People will flee to caves in the rocks and to holes in the ground from the fearful presence of the LORD and the splendor of his majesty, when he rises to shake the earth.

Isa 34:4 NIV All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

Rev 6:12-14 NIV I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
 

keras

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Marcus O'Reillius said:
That is only according to the Pre-Trib eschatological school of thought.
I am not Pre-Trib.
I am Pre-Wrath.

Pre-Wrath, like classical Post-Trib, sees the Rapture as happening AFTER the Great Tribulation.
The best evidence for this take on our part is the Olivet Discourse by Jesus.
I have to voice my appreciation on the pleasant tone of your recent posts. And I agree with most of what you say.
About the only issue we may have, is where the righteous survivors are transported to at Jesus' Return. Matthew 24:31, ! Thess 4:17 I believe to Jerusalem.
And, of course, the Wrath of God is over by that time. Rev 15:1
 

keras

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Good verses, Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever.

However not one of them actually says anyone will be raptured up to heaven.
Not the Rev 6:15 covers EVERYONE on earth as experiencing the Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath. It is the Day that 'will come like a thief', a sudden and shocking blast of fire from the sun, that will literally fulfil all the detailed prophesies about that terrible Day. Isaiah 66:15-16, 2 Peter 3:7
 

n2thelight

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Now you want me to tell you how God does something. I have already said that God rarely ever tells us HOW He does anything!
I beg 2 differ

Mark 13:23 "But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things."
 

Heb 13:8

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keras said:
However not one of them actually says anyone will be raptured up to heaven.
Underline: Third heaven

Isaiah 26:20-21 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Isa 33:16-17 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure. 17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

Underline: The great multitude is rapture and the throne is in heaven. The great multitude shouting in heaven Hallelujah.

Rev 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Rev 19:1 1After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,

keras said:
And, of course, the Wrath of God is over by that time. Rev 15:1
Underline: The wrath of God is just beginning after rapture. We are not appointed to wrath.

Isaiah 26:20-21 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Rev 6:17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.
 

Heb 13:8

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keras said:
About the only issue we may have, is where the righteous survivors are transported to at Jesus' Return. Matthew 24:31, ! Thess 4:17 I believe to Jerusalem.
Issue? Rev 7:9, Rev 19:1 Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
 

keras

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Heb 13:8 said:
Underline: Third heaven

Isaiah 26:20-21 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Isa 33:16-17 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure. 17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

Underline: The great multitude is rapture and the throne is in heaven. The great multitude shouting in heaven Hallelujah.

Rev 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Rev 19:1 1After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,


Underline: The wrath of God is just beginning after rapture. We are not appointed to wrath.

Isaiah 26:20-21 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Rev 6:17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.
Is it so hard for you to see that NONE of the underlined quotes actually say what you think they prove?
The whole rapture to heaven theory is constructed on theory, surmise and wishful thinking.
Please quote a verse that says God will take His people to heaven. I can give you dozens saying how His people will gather into all of the holy Land.
 

keras

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n2thelight said:
Understand what you're saying,however,Revelations is not in sequential order
Your unsupported opinion.
I know there are chapters that 'flash back' to fill in details, etc. I specifically mean the Seals, trumpets and Bowls are in chronological order.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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n2thelight said:
I beg 2 differ
Mark 13:23 "But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things."
Differ all you want.
Sure, we know what events are going to happen!

Now if you want to say where God says HOW He will do it, go ahead and post the verses!
God spoke - and creation happened. We still don't know how that worked, but it did.

How did God's Words create the marvelous intricacies of a single cell of life?
Those details are not written for us to know. We accept it on faith.
 

Heb 13:8

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keras said:
Is it so hard for you to see that NONE of the underlined quotes actually say what you think they prove?
The whole rapture to heaven theory is constructed on theory, surmise and wishful thinking.
Please quote a verse that says God will take His people to heaven. I can give you dozens saying how His people will gather into all of the holy Land.
keras: The great multitude is us, the body of Christ.
 

Heb 13:8

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Underline: Believers go to heaven at first resurrection and rapture. The great multitude in Rev 7:9 is the body of Christ receiving springs of living water.

John 4:13-14 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

John 7:38-39 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them." 39By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

1 Pet 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Rev 7:17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; ‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’ ‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’ "

Rev 19:1 After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
 

keras

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Heb 13:8 said:
keras: The great multitude is us, the body of Christ.
Correct.
All the righteous Christian believers are gathered into the holy Land, as prophesied many times in the OT. Ezekiel 34:11-31, Isaiah 35:1-10, Jeremiah 31:8-9, Zechariah 10:8-10 +++

Revelation 19:1-8 is another time the souls of the martyred saints are allowed to give voice, the same as in Revelation 6:9-11
They are not the living people of God, because they are still in the holy Land. Proved by Daniel 7:25 and Rev 13:7

Heb 13, there is no way living people go to heaven, this is not and has never been God's plan. What we are promised is protection during His wrath and amazing blessings, living in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land.
 

skypair

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n2thelight said:
Understand what you're saying,however,Revelations is not in sequential order
I've learned the following sequential order. It helps in understanding the chronology of events.

Rev 1-3 = church age
4-5 = rapture, scene in heaven
6 = seals
8-9 = trumpets
12 = 144,000 flee Jerusalem, A/C overflows Jerusalem
13 = A/C sets up his tabernacles in Jerusalem, his image in the temple
15-16 = preparation for and pouring out of the vials
19 = return of Christ
20 = rise and fall of the Millennial Kingdom
21 = New Heavens and New Earth (eternal kingdom of God)
22 = last things

skypair
 

Heb 13:8

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keras said:
Correct.
All the righteous Christian believers are gathered into the holy Land, as prophesied many times in the OT. Ezekiel 34:11-31, Isaiah 35:1-10, Jeremiah 31:8-9, Zechariah 10:8-10 +++

Revelation 19:1-8 is another time the souls of the martyred saints are allowed to give voice, the same as in Revelation 6:9-11
They are not the living people of God, because they are still in the holy Land. Proved by Daniel 7:25 and Rev 13:7

Heb 13, there is no way living people go to heaven, this is not and has never been God's plan. What we are promised is protection during His wrath and amazing blessings, living in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land.
Underline:

keras: The great multitude is the body of Christ spread out all over the world. They are the living people of God. That's what springs of living water means. Living people of God = Springs of living water. Rev 19:1 says they're in heaven.

Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Rev 7:17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; ‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’ ‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’ "

Rev 19:1 After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
 

keras

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If you want to get to heaven, the only way is to become a martyr for your faith in God. Their souls are kept under the Altar and they are allowed to give voice at times.
Apparently being killed for God, isn't painful as we read in Foxe's Book of Martyrs.

But living people don't get taken there, we have work to do here. The rapture to heaven theory is an escapist notion, nowhere stated in the Bible.
Jesus Himself refutes the rapture: John 3:13, John 17:15, John 7:34 and Rev 5:9-10 states: we shall reign on earth.
 

Heb 13:8

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keras said:
If you want to get to heaven, the only way is to become a martyr for your faith in God.
Underline: The only way to get to heaven is to become born again and believe in the finished work of the cross. John 3:3, Rom 10:9-10, Heb 10:10-14.

Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death. Rev 12:10-11