Rapture, Prophecy, Church, and the Nation of Israel- Last Generation

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

keras

Writer of Bible study guides
Mar 18, 2014
1,191
52
48
82
New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Nowhere does the Bible say God will take live people to heaven TO LIVE THERE.
John had a temporary visit only.

Jesus will come to take His people to where He is; that will be on earth after His Return.

The axiom is: When a Bible passage can be fulfilled literally then it isn't an allegory. The sun CAN flash 7 times brighter with a CME explosion.
Note that there will be another CME at the 4th Bowl. Rev 16:8

I am coming to think you are frightened of the prospect of God's wrath by fire, but it is something prophesied over 70 times. It will happen and you will be here to experience it. But having had the warning from me, you will know it will be just a one Day event and is survivable by keeping under cover.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

Active Member
Jan 20, 2014
1,146
7
38
Pennsylvania
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
keras said:
Nowhere does the Bible say God will take live people to heaven TO LIVE THERE.
Jesus will come to take His people to where He is; that will be on earth after His Return.
Wrong again. No, to where He is going. John 14:1-3.

keras' fantasy about the sun exploding is just that: a fantasy.
 

inchrist

New Member
Sep 23, 2016
86
5
0
Marcus O'Reillius said:
Un-Christian?
I'm not the one trying to destroy whole eschatologies and people's heart-felt beliefs!
Well I'm sure the sadducees felt the exact same way when Christ destroyed their concept of no resurrection.
Part 1
Someone who shows a complete lack of reliability in getting the small things right; is equally untrustworthy in getting the large things right: like when the Rapture happens...
Well lets clearly test your position shall we :)

Lets begin with this Prewrath opinion.

is surprising how many put the number seven together and link two passages which have nothing to do with each other and say: "Eureka! I solved the mystery!", when in fact, nothing in prophecy even remotely suggests we should do such a thing. Scripture interprets Scripture.
Very opinionated statement there.

See what Marcus and fellow prewraths dont understand there are in fact two trumpet sounds at the resurrection and rapture happening in the same event.

Now we can see.....clearly :), in Corinthians two types of trumpet sounds

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God

Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout = Christ vocal cord which sounds like a trumpet as per Rev 4:1 [ trumpet number 1]

With the voice of the archangel = Rev 14:15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

and with the trump of God = Rev 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet [ Trumpet no 2]
And this is exactly what we see in Rev 11:12 & Rev 11:15

Rev 11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” this all being "coincidentlly" at the last trumpet, the 7Th trumpet.

Now it is ironic Marcus used the word "mystery"

Because we also know Paul spoke of a mystery Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed

Rev 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."

What is also rather ironic Marcus and prewraths hold this opinianted position.

Paul is not referring to Revelation's seventh Trumpet. It wasn't written when he wrote Corinthians.
Um...isnt Paul a prophet?

Prewraths break the first law of mention when it comes to the 7 trumpets in Revelation....they dont seem to understand God does not wage war in an adhoc bases with no pattern. The only other mention about 7 trumpets in overthrowing a beast kingdom is in Joshua and the Battle of Jericho...

Sound biblical ground would be to stick to the patterns of how God wages war, especially overthrowing a beast kingdom and rapturing out a gentile believer (Rahab) by two spies with which we so happen to find in the battle of Jericho and in Revelation.....The Law of First Mention.

Symbolically, and that is an important word here and one that atin-christ misses, Paul's use of the Last Trumpet implicates an examination of Rosh ha-Shannah.
Rosh ha-Shannah is the "Returning Anew" of the Religious calendar.
This is another opinionated assumption...its now "symbolc". Well not really. The jewish feasts are in fact Holy Convocations

God states the following:
Leviticus 23:2 Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘YHVH’s appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations—My appointed times are these:

Passover, Unleavend bread, First fruits, Shavuot, Yom T’ruah, Yom Kippurim and Sukkot.

Holy convocation means a shadow a rehearsal which points to Christ

Now Marcus would have you deceived in the importants of following Gods appointed times as they carry vital clues, jewish idioms that guide us in our eschatology specifically the feast Rosh Hashanah

Rosh Hashanah idioms

Teshuvah (repentance)

2. Yom Teruah (the Day of the Awakening Blast [Feast of Trumpets)

3. Yom HaDin (the Day of Judgment)

4. HaMelech (the Coronation of the Messiah)

5. Yom HaZikkaron (the Day of Remembrance or memorial)

6. The opening of the gates

7. Kiddushin/Nesu'in (the wedding ceremony)

8. The resurrection of the dead (rapture, natza1)

9. The last trump (shofar)

10. Yom Hakeseh (the hidden day) No one Knows the day.

Now Marcus would have you believe jewish idioms are red herrings. Well lets see about that

Lets examine the Jewish idioms of Passover

The Lamb
Passover

God redeemed Israel through the sacrifice of a lamb without any defect (Ex. 12:5). He instructed the people to sacrifice the lamb and to spread the blood upon the doorposts of their homes with hyssop (Ex. 12:21-22).

The Messiah

John describes Jesus as "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). In the same way as the Passover lamb was without defect, Jesus was without sin (2 Cor. 5:21). This is why Paul tells us to remember how the "Messiah, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed" (I Cor. 5:7).

Blood
Passover

God redeemed Israel from Egypt through the shedding of blood. When God passed through the land of Egypt, He saw the blood of the lamb on the top and sides of the doorframe; therefore, He passed over the Israelite homes and did not allow the destroyer to take the lives of their firstborn sons (Ex. 12:23).

The Messiah

The Bible teaches us that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sins (Heb. 9:22). Jesus tells us that through His blood, He provides the forgiveness of sin (Mat. 26:28). He is the Lamb who was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities (Isaiah 53:5).

Redemption

Passover

The story of Passover represents God's redemption of Israel out of Egypt.

The Messiah

God fittingly chose the celebration of Israel's redemption from Egypt as the day to redeem the world through Jesus' death and resurrection.

Land
Passover

God delivered the children of Israel out of Egypt in order to bring them into the Promised Land.

The Messiah

In the same way, God delivers followers of Jesus from a dominion of darkness to bring them into His kingdom (Col. 1:13), and reminds us that one day God will fulfill His promise to establish His earthly kingdom in Jerusalem.

Lets look at the First Fruits

First Fruits


God commanded the nation to offer the first fruits of their harvest

The Messiah

As the first fruit of the resurrection, Jesus gives hope to His people that they shall likewise follow Him into eternal life (1 Cor. 15:20-23).

Now how would we have known Christ fulfilled the spring feasts without understanding the hebrew feasts themes/ idioms?

Similarly regarding the fall feasts still to be fulfilled : Rosh Hashanah/ Yom Kippur/ Tabernacle we can use Gods Holy convocation to pinpoint these feasts in eschatology in order to see where they are to be fulfilled by their idioms/ themes.

The Feast of tabernacles pictures the millennium = Zechariah 14:16-21

Yom Kippur = atonement and this is represented by Rev 19, Zech 12 & 13 as the same atoning event.


What we are left with is pinpointing where exactly from the beginning of Revelation to Rev 19 are we going to find Rosh Hashanah?

The only place in the entirety of Revelation that meets ALL the themes of Rosh Hashanah can only be found in Rev 11:11 - Rev 11:19

1. Resurrection and Rapture = Rev 11:11

2. The opening of the gates = Rev 11:19

3. HaMelech (the Coronation of the Messiah) = Rev 11:15

Yom HaZikkaron (the Day of Remembrance or memorial) = Rev 11:18

The month of Rosh hashanah we also find the following

Teshuvah (repentance) = Rev 16:19

Additionally

The 7 seal trumpet blasts equates with the Hebrew feasts months, as follows --

1) Nisan 1 -- first trumpet
2) Iyyar 1 -- second trumpet
3) Sivan 1 -- third trumpet
4) Tammuz 1 -- fourth trumpet
5) Ab 1 -- fifth trumpet
6) Elul 1 -- sixth trumpet
7) Tishri 1 -- Feast of Trumpets, seventh trumpet

Again we can be sure of this chronological sequence because the month of Elul is the time of repentence for the high holidays of Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur and thats exactly what we find in the 6th trumpet Revelation 9:20 the theme of repentence, which carries through Rev 16:19 till Yom Kippur Rev 19

Again scripture pointing to the 7th trumpet as Rosh Hashanah.
 

inchrist

New Member
Sep 23, 2016
86
5
0
Marcus O'Reillius said:
.

So when someone tells you that the Two Witnesses, or the 144,000, go door to door (exaggeration) and spread the Gospel message of Christ and so complete His Work - look at what the Bible says and at what they say.
Part 2

I'm afriad Marcus and prewraths share the same symptoms as those of pretribs.

See pretribs fail to understand the difference between Tribulation and Wrath, like wise Marcus fails to understand the judgements in miniture of the two witnesses authorised by God to that of the Wrath of God.

Whats interesting is Marcus actually doesnt have a cooking clue for the purpose of the 2 witnesses.

We can gain a better understanding the reason why Christ sent two witnesses to complete His ministry in the first place by observing the Jewish wedding

Here is the jewish wedding outlined

Notice the following - The groom secured two close friends to assist him in securing his bride and during the actual ceremony. These two are knownas “the friends of the bridegroom.” They functioned as the two witnesses required for a Jewish wedding. One of them was to assist the bride, and to lead her to the ceremony, while the other was stationed with the groom. He performed a special task when the couple retired into the chadar after the ceremony.

Jewish wedding

By Rabbi Dr. Hillel ben David

One can easily see pretribs do not follow the pattern

Many marriages were arranged by parents from the time that their children were infants. Others, however, went through the following process: At marrying age, the young man might be attracted to a young woman, or his parents might have chosen an appropriate bride for him. The procedure could be followed by one of three different parties: the father making the arrangements for his son, as Samson’s father did for him:


Shoftim (Judges) 14:1-10 Samson went down to Timnah and saw there a young Philistine woman. When he returned, he said to his father and mother, “I have seen a Philistine woman in Timnah; now get her for me as my wife.” His father and mother replied, “Isn’t there an acceptable woman among your relatives or among all our people? Must you go to the uncircumcised Philistines to get a wife?” But Samson said to his father, “Get her for me. She’s the right onefor me (His parents did not know that this was from HaShem, who was seeking an occasion to confront the Philistines; for at that time they were ruling overIsrael.) Samson went down to Timnah together with his father and mother. As they approached the vineyards of Timnah, suddenly a young lion came roaring toward him. The Spirit ofHaShem came upon him in power so that he tore the lion apart with his barehands as he might have torn a young goat. But he told neither his father nor his mother what he had done. Then he went down and talked with the woman, and he liked her. Some time later, when he went back to marry her, he turned aside to look at the lion’s carcass. In it was a swarm of bees and some honey, Which he scooped out with his handsand ate as he went along. When he rejoined his parents, he gave them some, and they too ate it. But he did not tell them that he had taken the honey from the lion’s carcass. Now his father went down to see the woman. And Samson made a feast there, as was customary for bridegrooms.



An agent working on behalf of the father, as Eliezer did on behalf of Avraham:


Bereshit (Genesis) 24:1-67 Abrahamwas now old and well advanced in years, and HaShem had blessed him in every way. He said to the chief servant in hishousehold, the one in charge of all that he had, “Put your hand under my thigh. I want you to swear by HaShem, the God of heaven and the God of earth, that you will not get a wife for my son from the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I am living, But will go to my country and my own relatives and get a wife for my son Isaac.” The servant asked him, “What if the woman is unwilling to come back with me to this land? Shall I then take your son back to the country you came from?” “Make sure that you do not take my son back there,”Abraham said. “HaShem, the God ofheaven, who brought me out of myfather’s household and my native land and who spoke to me and promised me on oath, saying, ‘To your offspring I will give this land’--he will send his angelbefore you so that you can get a wife for my son from there. If the woman is unwilling to come back with you, then you will be released from this oath of mine. Only do not take my son back there.” So the servant put his hand under the thigh of his master Abraham and swore an oath to him concerning this matter. Then the servant took ten of his master’s camels and left, taking with him all kinds of good things from his master. He set out for Aram Naharaim and made his way to the town of Nahor. He had the camels kneel down near the well outside the town; it was toward evening, the time the women go out to draw water. Then he prayed, “OHaShem, God of my master Abraham, give me success today, and show kindness to my master Abraham. See, I am standing beside this spring, and the daughters of the townspeople arecoming out to draw water. May it be that when I say to a girl, ‘Please let down your jar that I may have a drink,’ and she says, ‘Drink, and I’ll water your camels too’--let her be the one you have chosen for your servant Isaac. By this I will know that you have shown kindness to my master.” Before he had finishedpraying, Rebekah came out with her jar on her shoulder. She was the daughter of Bethuel son of Milcah, who was the wife of Abraham’s brother Nahor. The girl was very beautiful, a virgin; no man had ever lain with her. She went down to the spring, filled her jar and came up again. The servant hurried to meet her and said, “Please give me a little water from your jar.” “Drink, my lord,” she said, and quickly lowered the jar to her hands and gave him a drink. After she had given him a drink, she said, “I’ll draw water for your camels too, until they have finished drinking.” So she quickly emptied her jar into the trough, ran back to the well to draw more water, and drew enough for all his camels. Without saying a word, the man watched her closely to learn whether or not HaShemhad made his journey successful. When the camels had finished drinking, the man took out a gold nose ring weighing a beka and two gold bracelets weighingten shekels. Then he asked, “Whose daughter are you? Please tell me, is there room in your father’s house for us to spend the night?” She answered him, “I am the daughter of Bethuel, the son that Milcah bore to Nahor.” And she added, “We have plenty of straw and fodder, as well as room for you to spend the night.” Then the man bowed down and worshiped HaShem, Saying, “Praise be toHaShem, the God of my masterAbraham, who has not abandoned his kindness and faithfulness to my master. As for me, HaShem has led me on thejourney to the house of my master’s relatives.” The girl ran and told her mother’s household about these things. Now Rebekah had a brother named Laban, and he hurried out to the man at the spring. As soon as he had seen thenose ring, and the bracelets on his sister’s arms, and had heard Rebekah tell what the man said to her, he went out to the man and found him standingby the camels near the spring. “Come, you who are blessed by HaShem,” he said. “Why are you standing out here? I have prepared the house and a place for the camels.” So the man went to the house, and the camels were unloaded. Straw and fodder were brought for the camels, and water for him and his men to wash their feet. Then food was set before him, but he said, “I will not eatuntil I have told you what I have to say.” “Then tell us,” [Laban] said. So he said, “I am Abraham’s servant. HaShem has blessed my master abundantly, and he has become wealthy. He has given him sheep and cattle, silver and gold, menservants and maidservants, and camels and donkeys. My master’s wife Sarah has borne him a son in her old age, and he has given him everything he owns. And my master made me swear an oath, and said, ‘You must not get a wife for my son from the daughters of the Canaanites, in whose land I live, But go to my father’s family and to my own clan, and get a wife for my son.’ “Then I asked my master, ‘What if the woman will not come back with me?’ “He replied, ‘HaShem, before whom I have walked, will send his angel with you and make your journey a success, so that you can get a wife for my son from my own clan and from my father’s family. Then, when you go to my clan, you will be released from my oath even if they refuse to give her to you--you will be released from my oath.’ “When I came to the spring today, I said, ‘O HaShem, God of my master Abraham, if you will, please grant success to the journey on which I have come. See, I am standing beside this spring; if a maiden comes out to draw water and I say to her, “Please let me drink a little water from your jar,” And if she says to me, “Drink, and I’ll draw water for your camels too,” let her be theone HaShem has chosen for my master’s son.’ “Before I finished praying in myheart, Rebekah came out, with her jar on her shoulder. She went down to the spring and drew water, and I said to her, ‘Please give me a drink.’ “She quickly lowered her jar from her shoulder and said, ‘Drink, and I’ll water your camels too.’ So I drank, and she watered the camels also. “I asked her, ‘Whose daughter are you?’ “She said, ‘The daughter of Bethuel son of Nahor, whom Milcah bore to him.’ “Then I put the ring in her nose and the bracelets on herarms, And I bowed down and worshipedHaShem. I praised HaShem, the God of my master Abraham, who had led me on the right road to get the granddaughter of my master’s brother for his son. Now if you will show kindness and faithfulness to my master, tell me; and if not, tell me, so I may know which way to turn.” Laban and Bethuel answered, “This is from HaShem; we can say nothing to you one way or the other. Here is Rebekah; take her and go, and let her become the wife of your master’s son, as HaShem has directed.” WhenAbraham’s servant heard what they said, he bowed down to the ground before HaShem. Then the servant brought out gold and silver jewelry and articles of clothing and gave them to Rebekah; he also gave costly gifts to her brother and to her mother. Then he and the men who were with him ate and drank and spent the night there. When they got up the next morning, he said, “Send me on my way to my master.” But her brother and her mother replied, “Let the girl remain with us ten days or so; then you may go.” But he said to them, “Do not detain me, now that HaShemhas granted success to my journey. Send me on my way so I may go to my master.” Then they said, “Let’s call the girl and ask her about it.” So they called Rebekah and asked her, “Will you go with this man?” “I will go,” she said. So they sent their sister Rebekah on her way, along with her nurse andAbraham’s servant and his men. And they blessed Rebekah and said to her, “Our sister, may you increase to thousands upon thousands; may your offspring possess the gates of their enemies.” Then Rebekah and her maids got ready and mounted their camels and went back with the man. So the servant took Rebekah and left. Now Isaac had come from Beer Lahai Roi, for he was living in the Negev. He went out to the field one evening to meditate, and as he looked up, he saw camels approaching. Rebekah also looked up and saw Isaac. She got down from her camel And asked the servant, “Who is that man in the field coming to meet us?” “He is my master,” the servant answered. So she took her veil and covered herself. Then the servant toldIsaac all he had done. Isaac brought her into the tent of his mother Sarah, and hemarried Rebekah. So she became his wife, and he loved her; and Isaac was comforted after his mother’s death.



The bride was chosen by the son’s father or by the young man himself. For illustration’s sake, an example of the last possibility will be used.


A young man went to the home of his potential bride-to-be. He carried three things with him: a large sum of money in order to pay the price for his bride, a betrothalcontract called a Shitre Erusin, and a skin of wine. Of course, anyone arriving with these things would immediately be under suspicion. The man approached the girl’s father and older brothers. The contract was laid out, and the bride-price was discussed. Finally, a glass of wine was poured. If the father approved, then the maiden was called in. If she also approved, then she would drink the wine. In doing so, she committed herself to this man, agreeing to follow the contract that now was a legal document between the two. They would be called husband and wife at this time, and their union could only be dissolved by a divorce. However, their status was that of betrothed, rather than that of fully married.


After the wine had been drunk, the man made the statement that he would go to his father’s house and prepare a place for her. This place is known as chadar (chamber), sometimes referred to as chupah (or honeymoon bed with a canopy). From thetime that the Shitre Erusin was ratified, the young woman was consecrated, kiddushin - set apart to her husband. She has been bought with a price.


I Corinthians 6:20 You were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with yourbody.



I Corinthians 7:23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.



She must spend her time preparing to live as a wife and mother in Israel. Her days of waiting for her wedding are spent in learning how to please her husband.


Meanwhile, the young man returned to his father’s home, and the chadar goes under construction. The young Jewish bridegroom would make the following speech as he was leaving:


Yochanan (John) 14:2-3 In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.



The room is provided with every comfort, as they will retire here for one week following their wedding ceremony. We see this sevenday[1] period in:


Bereshit (Genesis) 29:22-28 So Laban brought together all the people of the place and gave a feast. But when evening came, he took his daughter Leah and gave her to Jacob, and Jacob lay withher. And Laban gave his servant girl Zilpah to his daughter as her maidservant. When morning came, there was Leah! So Jacob said to Laban, “What is this you have done to me? I served you for Rachel, didn’t I? Why have you deceived me?” Laban replied, “It is not our custom here to give the younger daughter in marriage before the olderone. Finish this daughter’s bridal week; then we will give you the younger onealso, in return for another seven years of work.” And Jacob did so. He finished the week with Leah, and then Laban gave him his daughter Rachel to be his wife.



and in:


Shoftim (Judges) 14:10-18 Now his father went down to see the woman. And Samson made a feast there, as was customary for bridegrooms. When he appeared, he was given thirtycompanions. “Let me tell you a riddle,” Samson said to them. “If you can give me the answer within the seven days of the feast, I will give you thirty linen garments and thirty sets of clothes. If you can’t tell me the answer, you must give me thirty linen garments and thirtysets of clothes.” “Tell us your riddle,” they said. “Let’s hear it.” He replied, “Out of the eater, something to eat; out of the strong, something sweet.” For three days they could not give the answer. On thefourth day, they said to Samson’s wife, “Coax your husband into explaining the riddle for us, or we will burn you and your father’s household to death. Did you invite us here to rob us?” Then Samson’s wife threw herself on him, sobbing, “You hate me! You don’t really love me. You’ve given my people a riddle, but you haven’t told me the answer.” “I haven’t even explained it to my father or mother,” he replied, “so why should I explain it to you?” She cried the wholeseven days of the feast. So on the seventh day he finally told her, because she continued to press him. She in turn explained the riddle to her people. Before sunset on the seventh day the men of the town said to him, “What is sweeter than honey? What is stronger than a lion?” Samson said to them, “If you had not plowed with my heifer, you would not have solved my riddle.”



The young man, if asked when the day of his wedding will be, replies, “No man knowsexcept my father.” In Israel the father had to be satisfied that every preparation had been made by his son before he gave him permission to go and get his bride.


.................................................

( prewraths are missing this section in their eschatology)

The groom secured two close friends to assist him in securing his bride and during the actual ceremony. These two are knownas “the friends of the bridegroom.” They functioned as the two witnesses required for a Jewish wedding. One of them was to assist the bride, and to lead her to the ceremony, while the other was stationed with the groom. He performed a special task when the couple retired into the chadar after the ceremony.


During the ceremony, known as Kiddushin, a second contract was brought forth called a Ketubah. This marriage contract was witnessed by the friends of the bridegroom and turned over to the parents of the bride. It contained the promises that the groom pledged to his wife.

..............................................................


When a couple gets married under the chuppah, the husband proclaims to his wife,harei at mekudeshes li, “behold you arebetrothed to me,” as he places the ring on her finger. It is with these words and his action that he accomplishes what is calledkiddushin (betrothal), which comes from theHebrew word that means holy and separate.Marriage sanctifies the relationship by making it exclusive. You are no longer “available;” you are mine and I am yours.


The ceremony was very much like theJewish wedding of today. As at all weddings, focus was centered on the bride and groom. For this one day they were looked at as king and queen. Every effort was taken, and every possible expense was made to insure their joy. On this day, tradition says, theirsins are forgiven. They stand pure, without spot or blemish as they are united.


Ephesians 5:25-32 Husbands, love your wives, just as Mashiach loved the churchand gave himself up for her To make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, And to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no oneever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Mashiach does the church-- For we are members of hisbody. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become oneflesh.” This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Mashiach and thechurch.



Following the ceremony, the bride and groom entered the chadar. Here the groom gave gifts to the bride:


Bereshit (Genesis) 34:12 Make the price for the bride and the gift I am to bring as great as you like, and I’ll pay whatever you ask me. Only give me the girl as my wife.”



Bereshit (Genesis) 24:53 Then the servant brought out gold and silver jewelry and articles of clothing and gave them to Rebekah; he also gave costly gifts to her brother and to her mother.



The couple spent seven days under the chupah, or literally in the chamber. The friend of the bridegroom stood at the door. All the guests of the wedding assembled outside, waiting for the friend of the bridegroom to announce the consummation of the marriage, which was related to him by the groom:


Yochanan (John) 3:26-30 They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan--the one you testified about--well, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him.” To this John replied, “A man can receive only what is given him from heaven. You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Mashiach but am sent ahead of him.’ The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. He must become greater; I must become less.



At this signal, great rejoicing broke forth in a week long celebration, until the twoemerged from the chupah to begin the actual wedding feast.


Revelation 19:4-9 The twenty-fourelders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God, who was seated on the throne. And they cried: “Amen, Hallelujah!” Then a voice came from the throne, saying: “Praise our God, all you his servants, you who fear him, both small and great!” Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: “Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.) Then theangel said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!’” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”



The other friend of the bridegroom, the oneassigned to the bride, is seen in Shemot (Exodus) 19, as Moses leads Israel, the bride of the Messiah, to meet her God at Mt. Sinai. In fact, Hag Shavout is recorded as thebetrothal between Israel and HaShem:


Yirimiyah (Jeremiah) 2:2-3 “Go and proclaim in the hearing of Jerusalem: “‘I remember the devotion of your youth, how as a bride you loved me andfollowed me through the desert, through a land not sown. Israel was holy toHaShem, the firstfruits of his harvest; all who devoured her were held guilty, and disaster overtook them,’” declaresHaShem.



Even as the first trump (shofar) announced the betrothal, so the last trump announced the wedding. In Tehillim (Psalms) 45 we are brought to the biblical portrayal of not only the wedding of the Mashiach but also hiscoronation. The guests are assembled, and gifts are distributed:


Tehillim (Psalms) 45:1-17 {For the director of music. To [the tune of] “Lilies.” Of the Sons of Korah. A <maskil.> A wedding song.} My heart is stirred by a noble theme as I recite my verses for the king; my tongue is the pen of a skillful writer You are the most excellent of men and your lips have been anointed with grace, since God has blessed you forever. Gird your sword upon your side, O mighty one; clothe yourself with splendor and majesty. In your majesty ride forth victoriously in behalf of truth, humility and righteousness; let your right handdisplay awesome deeds. Let your sharp arrows pierce the hearts of the king’s enemies; let the nations fall beneath yourfeet. Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy. All your robes are fragrant with myrrh and aloes andcassia; from palaces adorned with ivory the music of the strings makes you glad. Daughters of kings are among your honored women; at your right hand is the royal bride in gold of Ophir. Listen, O daughter, consider and give ear: Forget your people and your father’s house. The king is enthralled by your beauty; honor him, for he is your lord. The Daughter ofTyre will come with a gift, men of wealth will seek your favor. All glorious is the princess within [her chamber]; her gown is interwoven with gold. In embroidered garments she is led to the king; hervirgin companions follow her and are brought to you. They are led in with joy and gladness; they enter the palace of the king. Your sons will take the place of your fathers; you will make them princes throughout the land. I will perpetuate your memory through all generations; therefore the nations will praise you for ever and ever.



The following passage shows the glory of the bride and groom bedecked in all their wedding finery:


Yeshayah (Isaiah) 61:10 - 62:5 I delight greatly in HaShem; my soul rejoices in my God. For he has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels. For as the soil makes the sprout come up and a garden causes seeds to grow, so the Sovereign HaShem will make righteousness and praise spring up before all nations. For Zion’s sake I will not keep silent, for Jerusalem’s sake I will not remain quiet, till her righteousness shines out like the dawn, her salvation like a blazing torch. Thenations will see your righteousness, and all kings your glory; you will be called by a new name that the mouth of HaShemwill bestow. You will be a crown of splendor in HaShem’s hand, a royal diadem in the hand of your God. No longer will they call you Deserted, orname your land Desolate. But you will be called Hephzibah, and your land Beulah; for HaShem will take delight in you, and your land will be married. As a young man marries a maiden, so will your sons marry you; as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride, so will your God rejoice over you.



It is interesting to note that the only time, in Luqas (Luke), that Yeshua speaks of the bridegroom is just before the secondSabbath of Pesach week in:


Luqas (Luke) 5:30-35 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who belonged to their sect complained to his disciples, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and ‘sinners‘?”Yeshua answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” They said to him, “John’s disciples often fast and pray, and so do the disciples of the Pharisees, but yours go on eating and drinking.”Yeshua answered, “Can you make the guests of the bridegroom fast while he is with them? But the time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; in those days they will fast.”



A chupah is:



2646 chupah, khoop-paw’; from 2645; a canopy:-chamber, closet, defense.


This word, chupah, is used in only a few places in scripture:


Tehillim (Psalms) 19:1-5 {For the director of music. A psalm of David.} Theheavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun, Which is like a bridegroom coming forth from hispavilion, like a champion rejoicing to run his course.



Yoel (Joel) 2:16 Gather the people, consecrate the assembly; bring together the elders, gather the children, those nursing at the breast. Let the bridegroom leave his room and the bride her chamber.



Yeshayah (Isaiah) 4:1-6 In that dayseven women will take hold of one man and say, “We will eat our own food and provide our own clothes; only let us be called by your name. Take away our disgrace!” In that day the Branch ofHaShem will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land will be the pride and glory of the survivors in Israel. Those who are left in Zion, who remain in Jerusalem, will be called holy, all who are recorded among the living inJerusalem. The Lord will wash away the filth of the women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalemby a spirit of judgment and a spirit offire. Then HaShem will create over all ofMount Zion and over those who assemble there a cloud of smoke by day and a glow of flaming fire by night; over all the glory will be a canopy. It will be a shelter and shade from the heat of the day, and a refuge and hiding place from the storm and rain.



It is from here that our sages understood that this is exactly what happened when the children of Israel left Egypt:


Shemot (Exodus) 13:17-22 When Pharaoh let the people go, God did not lead them on the road through the Philistine country, though that was shorter. For God said, “If they face war, they might change their minds and return to Egypt.” So God led the people around by the desert road toward theRed Sea. The Israelites went up out of Egypt armed for battle. Moses took the bones of Joseph with him because Josephhad made the sons of Israel swear an oath. He had said, “God will surely come to your aid, and then you must carry my bones up with you from this place.” After leaving Succoth they camped at Ethamon the edge of the desert. By day HaShemwent ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night. Neither the pillar of cloud by day nor the pillar offire by night left its place in front of the people.



Our sages understood that the cloud firstcovered the Israelites at Succoth after they left Ramases. So, Succoth was aptly named by this event.


Our sages therefore see this as the betrothal:


Vayikra (Leviticus) 22:32-33 Do not profane my holy name. I must be acknowledged as holy by the Israelites. I am HaShem, who makes you holy And who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am HaShem.”



The Sfat Emet[2] said that this verse should be translated as:


Vayikra (Leviticus) 22:32-33 I shall be holy in the midst of the Children of Israel; I am Hashem, Who betrothed you while taking you out from the land of Egypt to be for you a God; I am Hashem.



6942 qadash, kaw-dash’; a prim. root; to be (causat. make, pronounce or observe as) clean (ceremonially or morally):-appoint, bid, consecrate, dedicate, defile, hallow, (be, keep) holy (-er, place), keep, prepare, proclaim, purify, sanctify (-ied one, self), x wholly.


So, a betrothal is a kiddushin. TheEncyclopedia Judaica indicates that abetrothal was a two step process. Thebetrothal, erusin or shiddukhin, was followed by the kiddushin.


The only time that the word “betroth“ is used in relation to HaShem and Israel is in Hoshea and is obviously yet future:


Hoshea (Hosea) 2:16-20 “In that day,” declares HaShem, “you will call me ‘my husband’; you will no longer call me ‘my master.’ I will remove the names of the Baals from her lips; no longer will their names be invoked. In that day I will make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field and the birds of the airand the creatures that move along the ground. Bow and sword and battle I will abolish from the land, so that all may lie down in safety. I will betroth you to me forever; I will betroth you in righteousness and justice, in love and compassion. I will betroth you in faithfulness, and you will acknowledgeHaShem.



Betroth 781 ‘aras, aw-ras’; a prim. root; to engage for matrimony:-betroth, espouse.


It is interesting to note that this was close intime to when Israel is first called a congregation (community) or church:


Shemot (Exodus) 12:1-3 HaShem said to Moses and Aaron in Egypt, “This month is to be for you the first month, the first month of your year. Tell the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day of this month each man is to take a lamb for his family, one for eachhousehold.



At the wedding the bride and bridegroom are consecrated (kiddushin) with these words:


“By this ring you are consecrated to me in accordance with the law of Moses andIsrael.”


Note the similarity to this passage:


Shemot (Exodus) 19:9-15 HaShem said to Moses, “I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will hear me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you.” Then Moses told HaShem what the people had said. And HaShem said to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow. Have them wash their clothes And be ready by the third day, because on that day HaShem will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people. Put limits for the people around the mountain and tell them, ‘Be careful that you do not go up the mountain or touch the foot of it. Whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death. He shall surely be stoned or shot with arrows; not a handis to be laid on him. Whether man or animal, he shall not be permitted to live.’ Only when the ram’s horn sounds a long blast may they go up to the mountain.” After Moses had gone down the mountain to the people, he consecrated them, and they washed their clothes. Then he said to the people, “Prepare yourselves for the third day. Abstain from sexual relations.”



Curiously, this is the first time that the Torah uses this word regarding His people. He used this term in Bereshit (Genesis) to describethe seventh day, and he used it to describe the firstborn at Pesach.


Before the wedding the groom required three days to prepare, according to the encyclopedia Judaica.
 

inchrist

New Member
Sep 23, 2016
86
5
0
Marcus O said:
.
I said: The Two Witnesses PRECEDE the Day of the Lord, and go to the end of the one 'seven' - the FULL length



I'm sorry, but in this version, "has come" is the perfect tense and it is not the future tense saying it will come.
FURTHERMORE - in the Greek, it is in the Aorist tense, which is a summary tense, most often translated as past tense.
Part 3

But the aorist tense is also used sufficiently often to very clearly :) refer to the present tense and to the future tense to demonstrate that it cannot be limited to the past tense.

In the following scripture examples all the CAPITALIZED VERBS are in the aorist tense with the active voice and the indicative mood:

And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I AM WELL PLEASED. (Matthew 3:17)

The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light IS SPRUNG UP. (Matthew 4:16)

But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God IS COME unto you. (Matthew 12:28)

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, HE HIDETH, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. (Matthew 13:44)

While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I AM WELL PLEASED; hear ye him. (Matthew 17:5)

Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees SIT in Moses' seat: (Matthew 23:2)

For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but IT WITHERETH the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways. (James 1:11)

A bruised reed SHALL HE NOT BREAK, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. (Matthew 12:20)

Paul used the aorist tense with the active voice and the subjunctive mood in 1 Cor. 16:12.

As touching [our] brother Apollos, I greatly desired him to come unto you with the brethren: but his will was not at all to come at this time; but he will come WHEN HE SHALL HAVE CONVENIENT TIME. (1 Corinthians 16:12)

John also used the aorist tense with the active voice and subjunctive mood in 1 John 2:24.

Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning SHALL REMAIN IN YOU, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. (1 John 2:24)

Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that HE IS both DEAD (aorist, active, indicative) and BURIED (second aorist, passive, indicative), and his sepulchre IS (present tense) with us unto this day. (Acts 2:29)

These examples should suffice to demonstrate that the aorist tense is indeed at times used to convey the present tense and also at times the future tense. This becomes clear from the context in which this tense is used.

Simply because the translators decided to translate that particular occurrence into the past tense in their English translations, that alone is not any guarantee that they were correct in doing so. You should actually know better, clearly :) you don't.

Rev 11:18 is a summary announcement that God's Wrath has come, or came, and now that it has concluded, there is something to happen next:
That would be Gods wrath, hence the bowls of wrath.

So what Marcus concludes is the wrath of God has came and its concluded and something next to happen is Gods wrath. Yip makes complete sense.

Revelation 11:11-12 is NOT the only place we see a resurrection
Another opinionated statement.

The multitude that comes out of the great tribulation is a continual event not a single event.

No where does it state they are resurrected or raptured to that of Rev 11:12.

What you have is an assumption versus an actual scriptual fact.

Further you should be well aware of

Hebrew 4:16 Let us then approach God's throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Trumpets are sounded by Angels.
In violation of Rosh Hashanah.

In the parallel account to the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology, in Revelation chapters 13-16 (inclusive) we see the Harvest: Rev 14:14-16.
In violation of needing to be escorted out by two witnesses as per the Jewish wedding feast as well as the prophetic template of Moses escorting the Israelites to the groom

Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain.

So, yes it is a coincidence
Nothing in scripture is coincidental....this is just an inconvenient truth. What you have presented in your prewrath outline is how one manufactures opinions to pass off as fact.

You follow none of Gods established prophetic patterns, you violate the first law of mention, you lack complete understanding why Christ sent two witnesses in the first place nor any discernment in understanding two types of trumpet sounds with in the ressurection and rapture event in the same event. You lack the complete ability of understanding Gods holy convocations, further you are of the opinion of "coincidences" being nothing more than superficial.

atin-christ

Lastly the name is inchrist....a representation of my on going relationship with Christ through faith of Gods establishment which you dare to mock....

You mock my acceptance of Christ sacrifice

You mock my relationship with the Holy spirit by so you mock the very Holy Spirit

You mock God for for me being in Christ God does not see our imperfections, how dare you.

You mock my identity, by the very nature you mock Christs identity.

The concept of being in christ is very holy to me....show some decorum...have some class
 

keras

Writer of Bible study guides
Mar 18, 2014
1,191
52
48
82
New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Here is more proof of how it is Christians who are the Israel of God. This truth simply wipes out the idea of the 'Church' going to heaven while ethnic Israel remains on earth.


[SIZE=medium]The dispensationalist explanation of the meaning of "[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]The Israel of God"[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] in Galatians 6:16 is contrary to Paul’s main point, in which it is said that: [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]in Christ Jesus ... there is neither Jew nor Greek. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]This central idea of the epistle, is expressed in the third chapter: [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]"you are all one in Christ Jesus ... if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring" [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Galatians 3:26-29[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]The fascination with the secular state of Israel which is so characteristic of dispensationalists today has led many of them to think that the restoration of the Jews as "God's people" has already occurred, despite the fact that their rapture has not yet happened and the Jews continue to reject Christ. Dispensationalists insist that this unbelieving Israel according to the flesh must be blessed by everyone. But of course this premise is totally wrong, because there is no blessing for those who reject Christ.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]The attempt to limit the meaning of "Israel of God" to the carnal sons of Judah betrays a fundamentally wrong approach to biblical interpretation, and to New Testament theology in particular. I give below some excerpts from writers who are more accurately express the meaning of Galatians 6:16. Even in these authors I find, however, an insufficient appreciation of Paul's teaching. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Peace be ... upon the Israel of God,[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] is a positive blessing and affirmation of true believers as the spiritual Israel of God.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=medium]Justin Martyr on "the true spiritual Israel" [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Jesus Christ ... is the new law, and the new covenant, and the expectation of those who out of every people wait for the good things of God. For the true spiritual Israel, and the descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham (who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God on account of his faith, and called the father of many nations), are we who have been led to God through Christ's salvation. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]John Chrysostom on Galatians 6:15-16 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Observe the power of the Cross, to what a pitch it hath raised him! not only hath it put to death for him all mundane affairs, but hath set him far above the Old Dispensation. What can be comparable to this power? for the Cross hath persuaded him, who was willing to be slain and to slay others for the sake of circumcision, to leave it on a level with uncircumcision, and to seek for things strange and marvelous and above the heavens. This our rule of life he calls "a new creature," both on account of what is past, and of what is to come; of what is past, because our soul, which had grown old with the oldness of sin, hath been all at once renewed by baptism, as if it had been created again. Wherefore we require a new and heavenly rule of life. And of things to come, because both the heaven and the earth, and all the creation, shall with our bodies be translated into incorruption. Tell me not then, he says, of circumcision, which now availeth nothing; but seek the new things of grace. For they who pursue these things shall enjoy peace and amity, and may properly be called by the name of "Israel." While they who hold contrary sentiments, although they be descended from him and bear his appellation, have yet fallen away from all these things, both the relationship and the name itself. But it is in their power to become true Israelites, by keeping this rule, by desisting from the old ways, and following after grace.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Martin Luther on Galatians 6:16 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Lectures on Galatians, 1519[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. "Walk" is the same verb that is used above (5:25). "Walk," that is, go, by this rule. By what rule? It is this rule, that they are new creatures in Christ, that they shine with the true righteousness and holiness which come from faith, and that they do not deceive themselves and others with the hypocritical righteousness and holiness which come from the Law. Upon the latter there will be wrath and tribulation, and upon the former will rest peace and mercy. Paul adds the words "upon the Israel of God." He distinguishes this Israel from the Israel after the flesh, just as in 1 Cor. 10:18 he speaks of those who are the Israel of the flesh, not the Israel of God. Therefore peace is upon Gentiles and Jews, provided that they go by the rule of faith and the Spirit.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Lectures on Galatians, 1535[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. "Upon the Israel of God." Here Paul attacks the false apostles and the Jews, who boasted about their fathers, their election and the Law. Romans 9:4-5[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]The [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Israel of God[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] are not necessarily the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel but all those who, as Abraham the believer (3:9), believe in the promises of God now revealed in Christ, whether they are Jews or Gentiles.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]John Calvin on Galatians 6:16 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Upon the Israel of God[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. This is an indirect ridicule of the vain boasting of the false apostles, who vaunted of being the descendants of Abraham according to the flesh. There are two classes who bear this name, a pretended Israel, which appears to be so in the sight of men, and the Israel of God. Circumcision was a disguise before men, but regeneration is a truth before God. In a word, he gives the appellation of the [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Israel of God[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] to those whom he formerly denominated as the children of Abraham by faith (Galatians 3:29), and thus includes all believers, whether Jews or Gentiles, who are united into one body of Christ. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]William Hendriksen on Galatians 6:16 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Paul continues: [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]16. And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace (be) upon them and mercy, even upon the Israel of God.[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] According to the preceding context, this rule is the one by which before God only this is of consequence, that a person places his complete trust in Christ crucified, and that, therefore, he regulates his life by this principle. This will mean that his life will be one of gratitude and Christian service out of love for his wonderful Saviour.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]So far the interpretation runs smoothly. A difficulty arises because of the last phrase of this verse. That last phrase is: "[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]kai[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] upon the Israel of God." Now, varying with the specific context in which this conjunction [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]kai[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] occurs, it can be rendered: [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]and, and so, also, likewise, even, nevertheless, and yet, but,[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] etc. Sometimes it is best left untranslated. Now when this conjunction is rendered [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]and[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] (as in A.V., A.R.V., N.E.B.), it yields this result, that after having pronounced God's blessing upon all those who place their trust exclusively in Christ Crucified, the apostle pronounces an additional blessing upon "[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]the Israel of God[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]," which is then interpreted to mean "the Jews," or "all such Jews as would in the future be converted to Christ," etc.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]This interpretation tends to make Paul contradict his whole line of reasoning in this epistle. Over against the Judaizers' perversion of the gospel he has emphasized the fact that "[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]the blessing of Abraham[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]" now rests upon all those, and only those, "[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]who are of faith"[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] (3:9); that all those, and only those, "[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]who belong to Christ" are "heirs according to the promise"[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] (3:29). These are the very people who "[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]walk by the Spirit[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]" (5:16), and "[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]are led by the Spirit[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]" (5:18). Moreover, to make his meaning very clear, the apostle has even called special attention to the fact that God bestows his blessings on all true believers, regardless of nationality, race, social position, or sex: [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]"There can be neither Jew nor Greek; there can be neither slave nor freeman; there can be no male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" [/SIZE][SIZE=medium](3:28). [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]In harmony with all of Paul's teaching in this epistle, see also Ephesians 2:14-22, and also in harmony with the broad, all-inclusive statement at the beginning of the present passage, where the apostle pronounces God's blessing of peace and mercy upon "[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]as many as[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]" shall walk by this rule, an object from which nothing can be subtracted and to which nothing can be added, it is my firm belief that those many translators and interpreters are right who have decided that [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]kai[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], as here used, must be rendered [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]even[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], or (with equal effect) must be left untranslated. Hence, what the apostle says is this: "[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace (be) upon them and mercy, even upon the Israel of God."[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] Cf. Psalm 125:5. Upon all of God's true Israelites, Jew or Gentile, all who truly glory in the cross, this blessing is pronounced.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]O. Palmer Robertson on the Israel of God [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]The recognition of a distinctive people who are the recipients of God’s redemptive blessings and yet who have a separate existence apart from the church of Jesus Christ creates insuperable theological problems. Jesus Christ has only one body and only one bride, one people that he claims as his own, which is [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]the true Israel of God[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. This one people is made up of Jews and Gentiles who believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah.[/SIZE]
 

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,052
787
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
Marcus O'Reillius said:
I said:

And mister replacement theo said:



Actually, Pre-Wrath, the Rapture, and a removal to Heaven ALL follow a literal reading. So I do as I say.

You have to twist things around to say it doesn't.
Where is the literal reading of Christ taking people to Heaven?
 

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,052
787
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
Marcus O'Reillius said:
Nonsense.
Jesus comes on the Day of the Lord to gather up (harpazo, the Rapture) the Elect who are (still) alive and remain (after the Great Tribulation).

The Day of the Lord is the 2nd coming,not some rapture....
 

Marcus O'Reillius

Active Member
Jan 20, 2014
1,146
7
38
Pennsylvania
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
n2thelight said:
Where is the literal reading of Christ taking people to Heaven?
You mean the Rapture passages?
Or the passages with the Great Multitude in Heaven?
Or where Jesus says He goes to prepare a place for us?
Or where Paul says our citizenship lies?
Or where Peter speaks our inheritance in Heaven?
 

Marcus O'Reillius

Active Member
Jan 20, 2014
1,146
7
38
Pennsylvania
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
n2thelight said:
The Day of the Lord is the 2nd coming,not some rapture....
Paul says they are linked.
2Th 2:​1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

Jesus says He will gather the Elect when He comes:
Mt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with A great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
 

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,052
787
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
Marcus O'Reillius said:
That is your conclusion, and not quite supported by the statement of one of the 24 Elders to John, who says, NOT that they have been there a long time, as you have concluded, BUT that they come OUT OF the Great Tribulation.

Many people think that when we die, we go right to Heaven.

That goes against what Paul wrote about the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ, which was also something Jesus taught to those around Him.

The Dead in Christ RISE when they are resurrected - and that is ON the Day of the Lord.

John 11:21 Martha then said to Jesus, " Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." 23 Jesus *said to her, "Your brother will rise again." 24 Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." 25 Jesus said to her, " I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" 27 She *said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world."

And Paul said:

1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

The Dead in Christ do not rise until Jesus comes again.

This is why I look at Heaven differently then Roy Retrobyter. The "first" Heaven? Not the sky, but Paradise: the place where the Dead in Christ "rest" until they are resurrected ON the Day of the Lord.

How can they come out of the Great Trib (raptured)when they according to rapturist should never have been in the great trib...

Revelation 7:14 "And I said unto him, Sir [My Lord], thou knowest. and he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

How did Moses and Elijah get to heaven?And the Rich man and Beggar,do you understand that parable or do you think Christ was talking fiction?

The resurrection happens at death,our flesh will not rise...All return to heaven at death,those who do not die before His return shall be changed ...ALL!!!!
 

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,052
787
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
And we have the below

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord [Master], holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

More of the same people from chapter 7

Now,do tell how did these people get to Heaven?

I bolded it but did you not read?

the souls of them that were slain for the word of God!!!!!
 

inchrist

New Member
Sep 23, 2016
86
5
0
n2thelight said:
And we have the below

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"[/size]

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord [Master], holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

More of the same people from chapter 7

Now,do tell how did these people get to Heaven?

I bolded it but did you not read?

the souls of them that were slain for the word of God!!!!!
Absolutly it is another possibility

We expect to see more Christians slain

Rev 6:11

until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

Considering the multitude are in the process of coming out / slain of the Great Tribulation in the present view of John it would explain why John states in future tense, that Christ still needs to lead them to springs of living water.’

Rev 7:17

For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’

Springs of living water means immortality

We know when we are resurrected and raptured we are instantly changed to immortality

1Cor 15:52
in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

John confirms to us in Revelations 7 that the multitude are not imperishable in his present view

And Paul confirms upon ressurection and rapture we are raised and changed to imperishable.

Thus the multitide in Rev 7 is not the resurrection and rapture. We have a prewrath contradiction.
 

keras

Writer of Bible study guides
Mar 18, 2014
1,191
52
48
82
New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
The vast multitude of Rev 7 are those who have stood firm in their faith, thereby receiving God's protection, during the Sixth Seal; just happened worldwide disaster by fire from the sun.
They are normal humans and it is at least 7+ years before Jesus Returns and they go with Him into the Millennium.
This explanation is correct, because the Seventh Seal and the GT 7 Trumpets an 7 Bowls follow and are yet to happen.

Revelation 7:15-17 jumps forward to Eternity, after the Millennium period, proved by God will wipe every tear from their eyes. Revelation 21:4
 

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,052
787
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
keras said:
The vast multitude of Rev 7 are those who have stood firm in their faith, thereby receiving God's protection, during the Sixth Seal; just happened worldwide disaster by fire from the sun.
They are normal humans and it is at least 7+ years before Jesus Returns and they go with Him into the Millennium.
This explanation is correct, because the Seventh Seal and the GT 7 Trumpets an 7 Bowls follow and are yet to happen.

Revelation 7:15-17 jumps forward to Eternity, after the Millennium period, proved by God will wipe every tear from their eyes. Revelation 21:4

I feel that the 6 seal 6 trump and 6th vial as well as the 7 seal 7 trump and 7th vial happen around the same time
 

Marcus O'Reillius

Active Member
Jan 20, 2014
1,146
7
38
Pennsylvania
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
n2thelight said:
How can they come out of the Great Trib (raptured)when they according to rapturist should never have been in the great trib...
That is only according to the Pre-Trib eschatological school of thought.
I am not Pre-Trib.
I am Pre-Wrath.

Pre-Wrath, like classical Post-Trib, sees the Rapture as happening AFTER the Great Tribulation.
The best evidence for this take on our part is the Olivet Discourse by Jesus.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

Active Member
Jan 20, 2014
1,146
7
38
Pennsylvania
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
n2thelight said:
How did Moses and Elijah get to heaven?
God very rarely ever tells us HOW He does something.
One exception to that I think I have found is Ezekiel 32:7 - as a possible explanation as to how the sun is made like sackcloth at noon before the Day of the Lord with, what I call: the sun/moon/star event.

Furthermore, I think it is Enoch and Elijah who were taken from the earth bodily while still alive.
Moses died and his grave is mentioned in the Torah.

Where Moses is now, does relate to the story (not parable) of the beggar and rich man.
We can also not discount that Moses wasn't one of the "men wondered at" from Zec 3:8 who may also be among the "captives" who followed Jesus to Heaven at His initial ascension to the Father as Jesus told Mary in the Garden after His Resurrection from death.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

Active Member
Jan 20, 2014
1,146
7
38
Pennsylvania
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
n2thelight said:
And the Rich man and Beggar,do you understand that parable or do you think Christ was talking fiction?
First of all, Jesus did not lie. So to ask if I think Jesus was talking fictionally is ridiculous.

Second of all, and this is a minor bone of contention within theological scholars: the story of the beggar, Lazarus, and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31 does not follow the allegorical pattern for parables. Indeed, it has a named individual, which is not like any other parable in the Gospels.

Furthermore, Jesus does not start off with, 'Heaven is like...' but rather starts off by saying, "Now there was a rich man..."

The story of Lazarus and the rich man shows two ends: Paradise and Hades.
This place is not in the "sky", but we can infer it is also not of this earth, or even in this natural world, i.e., the entire universe.

This passage in Luke is very important because it is our only insight to what happens to us when we die.
It does give us an answer to "Where do we go" when we die - as Jesus said:

Luke 23:42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

Notice Jesus does not say that the righteous (if you can imagine a thief being righteous - but that is how salvation saves us from our sins) thief - you have to wait for the Resurrection.
Jesus does not say, you have to wait for the end of the Millennium.
Jesus says TODAY THEY will be in Paradise.

I put it to you that Jesus and the thief ended up in the same place as Lazarus in Luke 16: Abraham's bosom, Paradise.
- and that the thief on Jesus' left, who did not believe - was with the rich man across the divide in Hades, a hot, dry (no Holy Spirit) place.

I count Paradise as the "first" Heaven.
A real place in the supernatural plane.
Paradise then, is the place from where Jesus sounds the Last Trumpet, and the Dead in Christ are resurrected on the Last Day (of the Church Age).
 

Marcus O'Reillius

Active Member
Jan 20, 2014
1,146
7
38
Pennsylvania
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
n2thelight said:
The resurrection happens at death,our flesh will not rise...
That is your conclusion. I do not share it.


n2thelight said:
All return to heaven at death,those who do not die before His return shall be changed ...ALL!!!!
I prefer to think that those who die in Christ, rest in peace in Paradise until such time as Jesus sounds the Last Trumpet on the Day of the Lord - then they are resurrected.

This interpretation fits 1Th 4:16, which is a true statement. Thus, I comport to what is in Scripture.

Seeing Paradise as the first "level" of Heaven answers why Paul said he knew a man (John? - not himself as some would say, because Paul just said in that passage that he would not boast of himself) - who went to the "THIRD" Heaven.

I ask, why did Paul need to qualify this Heaven as being the third?
It implies two other "Heavens" as well.
And I'm not talking about the sky.

And only the Elect are changed. The wicked, in a Pre-Wrath eschatology, are left behind to suffer God's Wrath with the desolations He has decreed.
 

skypair

Active Member
Nov 4, 2016
340
42
28
joegreen said:
"When He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth... and He will show you things to come" (John 16:13).
Israel became a nation in 1948.
Last generation beginning in 1948?
I got better news for you! Remember how long it was between the birth of Christ (0) and the destruction of the temple (70 AD) signifying the change in dispensations? So my thought is that from 1948 until the Temple is rebuilt and sacrifices offered will be 70 years. Now the only question is "How long will it take to build the Temple before 2018?" Because the tribulation is a reversion to the OT. It will be the 70th week of Daniel, right?

skypair