Rapture, Prophecy, Church, and the Nation of Israel- Last Generation

[keras]

Underline: The only way to get to heaven is to become born again and believe in the finished work of the cross. John 3:3, Rom 10:9-10, Heb 10:10-14.

Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death. Rev 12:10-11

Your posts simply bear no relation to the subject. NONE of your quotes say anything about going to heaven.
You and most rapture believers are so immersed in your theory, that you see rrrrapture everywhere. [that's how the false teacher John Hagee says it]

This subject has been extensively discussed before on this forum. Have you bothered to look back; not too far and you may learn something and save us all from repeating ourselves.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

This is silly.

You and most rapture believers are so immersed in your theory, that you see rrrrapture everywhere.

Want to talk about repetition?
The point is that you have an agenda to destroy, and the none of the verses which show the Rapture and a place in Heaven have ever made a dent in that thick skull of yours.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

 

[Heb 13:8]

You and most rapture believers are so immersed in your theory, that you see rrrrapture everywhere. [that's how the false teacher John Hagee says it]

You agree the great multitude in Rev 7 is the body of Christ but not in Rev 19, and you wanna discuss false teachers?

 

[keras]

You agree the great multitude in Rev 7 is the body of Christ but not in Rev 19, and you wanna discuss false teachers?

Revelation 7 describes a scene entirely on earth. From 1-14 it will happen soon after the Sixth Seal devastation, Verses 15-17 are after the Millennium.
Rev 19:1-8 describes the souls of the martyrs in heaven, allowed to praise God for taking vengeance on their killers.
This is correct and you can't prove otherwise.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Revelation 7 describes a scene entirely on earth.

keras simply cannot show how the Father, the Throne upon which He sits, the four Living Creatures, and the 24 Elders, are suddenly, and inexplicably transported to the earth.

The fact that John sees the Lamb upon Mount Zion with the 144,000 and simultaneously, John hears a voice from Heaven, "And they sang a new song BEFORE the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders."
It is not the 144,000 who sing the song.
It is the 144,000 who can LEARN the song sung IN HEAVEN.

The same Throne upon which the Father sits, He, the four Living Creatures, and the 24 Elders are STILL in Heaven in chapter 7.
They are not on the earth, which is soon to be devastated by the very desolations God has decreed on the Scroll, which is about to be opened!

Talk about your repetition.
This has been gone over a dozen times, and it will be repeated dozens more.
As long as keras tries vainly to destroy a future hope that we have in God's Word.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Revelation 7 describes a scene entirely on earth. From 1-14 it will happen soon after the Sixth Seal devastation, Verses 15-17 are after the Millennium.
Rev 19:1-8 describes the souls of the martyrs in heaven, allowed to praise God for taking vengeance on their killers.
This is correct and you can't prove otherwise.

Underline: Matt 24:29-31 is the rapture of the elect, the body of Christ.

Rev 7:14 I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Matt 24:29-31 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Revelation 19:1-8 is another time the souls of the martyred saints are allowed to give voice, the same as in Revelation 6:9-11

Underline: The martyred souls come alive at first resurrection. All believers will rise together.

1 Thess 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Underline: Soul Sleep is truth.

Some have cited these verses to validate the immortal soul doctrine and the belief that, upon death, people go to heaven. However, this description is not literal, but rather is entirely symbolic. The Bible plainly teaches that souls are mortal.

In vision, the apostle John saw before him a book or scroll sealed with seven seals. As Christ opened each seal (Rev. 5:5), John was shown a preview of an event that would happen in the future (“hereafter” [4:1]). Since John was “in the spirit” as the seven seals were opened (vs. 2), the events he witnessed were not actually occurring at that time. They were heavenly previews of things that would happen later on earth.

Upon the opening of the fifth seal (Rev. 6:9), John “saw under [at the base of] the altar the souls of them that were slain.” Christ had shown the meaning of the seven seals when He was on earth. He explained that the fifth seal symbolizes the coming time of Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:9-28), an event that will occur on earth.

In this vision, John was shown the future, this modern age, a time when one martyrdom has already taken place (during the Middle Ages) and a greater one (the Great Tribulation) is yet to happen. The souls who were “slain” (martyred Christian throughout the ages) were told, in Revelation 6:11, to “rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.” Those who have died will continue to “rest” (remain “asleep [Eph. 5:14; I Cor. 11:30]” in their graves), until others are also martyred as they were.

The “souls” (dead saints) crying “avenge our blood” (vs. 10) is akin to Abel’s blood (his life [note Lev. 17:14]) crying to God from the earth (Gen. 4:10). Since blood does not talk and neither do the dead (Psa. 115:17; Ecc. 9:5, 10), we understand the meaning to be symbolic, not literal. Therefore, the “souls under the altar” represent those awaiting the future martyrdom of saints.

https://rcg.org/questions/p068.a.html

anapauó: to give rest, give intermission from labor, by impl. refresh
Original Word: ἀναπαύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: anapauó
Phonetic Spelling: (an-ap-ow'-o)
Short Definition: I make to rest, give rest to, rest, take my ease
Definition: I make to rest, give rest to; mid. and pass: I rest, take my ease.

nuach: to rest
Original Word: נ֫וּחַ
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: nuach
Phonetic Spelling: (noo'-akh)
Short Definition: rest

Job 3:11-13 “Why did I not perish at birth, and die as I came from the womb? 12Why were there knees to receive me and breasts that I might be nursed? 13For now I would be lying down in peace; I would be asleep and at rest (nuach)

Job 3:16-17 Or why was I not hidden away in the ground like a stillborn child, like an infant who never saw the light of day? 17There the wicked cease from turmoil, and there the weary are at rest (nuach).

Isa 57:1-2 The righteous perish, and no one takes it to heart; the devout are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. 2Those who walk uprightly enter into peace; they find rest (nuach) as they lie in death.

Dan 12:13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest (nuach), and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

Rev 6:11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer (anapauó), until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

Rev 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest (anapauó) from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

 

[keras]

keras simply cannot show how the Father, the Throne upon which He sits, the four Living Creatures, and the 24 Elders, are suddenly, and inexplicably transported to the earth.​ Quote Marcus

Both Ezekiel and Stephen saw God's throne while on the earth. As heaven is in a spiritual dimension, this is quite feasible.

The hope we have in God's Word, is the fantastic promises of going to live in a regenerated holy Land, where we will fulfil our destiny as His holy people. Going to heaven was never and never will be God's plan for humans.

Heb 13, your parroted answers from the Reformed Church of God, prove nothing.
Yes, soul sleep is correct for everyone who dies normally. But plainly the martyrs from Stephen up until Jesus Returns, are special cases, kept under the heavenly Altar.
Revelation 6:9-11 states the souls of the martyrs are given the power to cry out and as it is nowhere said that living people go to heaven, it is those souls again mentioned in Rev 19:1.

 

[n2thelight]

Heb

Underline: The martyred souls come alive at first resurrection. All believers will rise together.

1 Thess 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Underline: Soul Sleep is truth.

How can they come alive after,when they are talking at the alter before?

Soul sleep if false

 

[Heb 13:8]

Yes, soul sleep is correct for everyone who dies normally. But plainly the martyrs from Stephen up until Jesus Returns, are special cases, kept under the heavenly Altar.

Underline: The fifth seal is symbolic language. Blood cannot talk, nor can flesh and blood inherit the kingdom of God, martyr or not.

Gen 4:10 The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground.

1 Cor 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Rev 6:9-11 NIV When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

How can they come alive after,when they are talking at the alter before?

Soul sleep if false

How are they talking is the same as asking how blood can talk 1 Cor 15:50. The fifth seal is a vision, symbolic language. Read my post to keras. Also study anapauó and nuach in post 247.

 

[Heb 13:8]

How can the martyr's be talking in heaven without a soul. The only reason a soul exists because of spirit and body. God created a soul by using His spirit and our body.

 

[n2thelight]

How can the martyr's be talking in heaven without a soul. The only reason a soul exists because of spirit and body. God created a soul by using His spirit and our body.

The spirit which is the intellect of the soul can and will exist with out the body.The body(flesh)returns to dust .The soul is a body on it's on,it's just at this time stuck in the flesh,which is why Paul says we have two bodies...

 

[Heb 13:8]

The spirit which is the intellect of the soul can and will exist with out the body.The body(flesh)returns to dust .The soul is a body on it's on,it's just at this time stuck in the flesh,which is why Paul says we have two bodies...

Spirit bodies do not exist in scripture. Spirit is translated wind (pneuma). How does "wind" talk?. How does "wind" have a tongue? John 3:8.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Matt 24:29-31 and 1 Thess 4:13-17 Rapture Comparison

1. Both scriptures describe the Lord coming down from heaven
2. Both scriptures describe a loud trumpet call, loud command
3. Both scriptures describe angels sending out a voice
4. Both scriptures describe the Lord being in clouds
5. Both scriptures describe the body of Christ

Matt 24:29-31 NIV “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

1 Thess 4:13-17 NIV Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

 

[keras]

Matt 24:29-31 and 1 Thess 4:13-17 Rapture Comparison

1. Both scriptures describe the Lord coming down from heaven
2. Both scriptures describe a loud trumpet call, loud command
3. Both scriptures describe angels sending out a voice
4. Both scriptures describe the Lord being in clouds
5. Both scriptures describe the body of Christ

Matt 24:29-31 NIV “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

1 Thess 4:13-17 NIV Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Both these scriptures describe the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign. He sends out His angels to gather all the living Christians to where He is: in Jerusalem.
I have no idea how you can get a rapture to heaven from these, or any other scripture.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Both these scriptures describe the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign. He sends out His angels to gather all the living Christians to where He is: in Jerusalem.
I have no idea how you can get a rapture to heaven from these, or any other scripture.

Because the great multitude are the same people in Rev 7 and Rev 19. There are no "special cases" for martyred saints, per keras. Has the body of Stephen resurrected?

 

[n2thelight]

Because the great multitude are the same people in Rev 7 and Rev 19. There are no "special cases" for martyred saints, per keras. Has the body of Stephen resurrected?

Yes Stephen is in Heaven,his flesh will not be needed again.He comes back with Christ,and at that time those woh are alive will be changed to be as those coming back!!!

 

[Heb 13:8]

Yes Stephen is in Heaven,his flesh will not be needed again.He comes back with Christ,and at that time those woh are alive will be changed to be as those coming back!!!

No he's not. He's resting in his grave awaiting the first resurrection like all believers are. Spirit bodies are not scriptural. That's why "Ghost" is a Hollywood movie.

 

[Heb 13:8]

You need to look up what spirit means in Greek. Your tongue is a part of your flesh, without flesh you can't talk. Post 253.

 

[skypair]

Yes Stephen is in Heaven,his flesh will not be needed again.He comes back with Christ,and at that time those woh are alive will be changed to be as those coming back!!!

You need to read Heb 12:22-24. Paul went to 3rd heaven (2Cor 12:2-4) where he saw 1) "the general assembly and church of the first born …" and 2) "the spirits of just men made perfect" — the OT saints.

And do you not know that, even when we sleep, our spirits are active?

And if they don't come back in their original bodies, it's called reincarnation — not resurrection.

skypair