Rapture, Prophecy, Church, and the Nation of Israel- Last Generation
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keras
Writer of Bible study guides
Because scripture does not actually teach a rapture removal to heaven, nowhere is that stated and it is only by construing that theory from verses like 'we are not appointed to wrath', and wishful thinking, that a rapture is made up. Many prophesies say God will protect us from His wrath, never remove.Stranger said:
Galatians 6:16 is unmistakable, All who take this principal to be their guide, peace and mercy be upon them, the Israel of God. REB I see the KJV erroneously puts 'and', making it seem like Paul means 2 peoples, but in all of Galatians, he is talking only to Christians.
You are clutching at straws, thinking that the precedent of Enoch and Elijah means: in the last days, He will take millions to heaven. Such an idea isn't God's Plan at all, many prophesies say how He will gather His people into all of the holy Land. Isaiah 66:18-21 There are all there, as we see in Revelation 7:9, this is not a heavenly scene, proved by the Throne being on Mt Zion. Rev 14:3
keras
Writer of Bible study guides
Quite right, the Jewish State of Israel, is very far from being the Body of Christ, the true Church. Which is made up from every individual believer from every race and language.Stranger said:
The Jews have usurped the name of Israel and confusion has resulted, but they are mostly of the synagogue of Satan. Rev 2:9b
You mean Gal.6:16 is unmistakeable in your Bible. What is the REB? Tell me where the KJV got it wrong.keras said:
Enoch and Elijah prove that God has no problem in rapturing people to Heaven.
Rev.7:9 does take place in Heaven. Rev. 4:1 says, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." So John is in Heaven and the location has not changed in chapter 7.
Stranger
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
Actually it does teach a Rapture to Heaven.keras said:
However, rabbi keras teaches there isn't.
keras
Writer of Bible study guides
I showed you; the KJV adds 'and'.Stranger said:
God can do anything He chooses. He could give you understanding of His plans, but because you have confused yourself, He has closed your eyes and sealed the Book. Isaiah 29:9-12
Revelation 7:1-3 sets an earthly scene for the selection of the 144,000, and nowhere is heaven mentioned in that chapter.
Marcus: I teach no rapture, because such a thing as a removal to heaven of living people in these last days, is never mentioned in the Bible.
You know very well that the rapture theory must rely on surmise, mis-application of scripture and sheer wishful thinking.
With that thinking, you miss the truth of God's plans for His true Christian people. I have posted this truth many times, why the difficulty in seeing it?
Revelation 4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."Stranger said:
"After this", is after the vision of the seven churches have been instructed; in which two of those churches were on the right track, and of the other five churches Jesus was displeased with. Two churches had the doctrines of Christ in them, and they knew who the "Kenites" are, and where they came. They knew the Kenites were of the synagogue of Satan and claimed to be Jews, when in fact they were lying and not Jews at all.
Jesus said, if you understand what the churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia understood, and followed it, it is worth a crown of life to you.
This chapter starts out, "After this [after the messages to the churches] I looked, behold a door was opened in heaven:" This door is not on earth where the seven churches are, but in heaven. John is being carried from the Isle of Patmos to a specific time, or "earth dispensation" in the heavenlies. The key to understanding when this time period was, go to Revelation 1:10. "I was in the spirit on the Lord's day:" This is not in reference to a Saturday or Sunday. This is a record given by Jesus to John of events that will happen just before, or following that day. "That day" is the day of the sounding of the seventh trumpet when Jesus Christ returns.
John has already addressed the churches on the earth; then he looked up, and this door to heaven has opened. Now we can see through John's spiritual eyes and pen, what events are taking place there on the "day of the Lord", only the location of this event is in heaven.
"The first voice which I heard..." Who is this "I" in verse one? Of course it's John, the one writing this. Have you ever heard John referred to as "the Church"? Absolutely not. There is no church in heaven; not at this point. However, there will be, for heaven is where ever God is, and at the appointed time He is coming here to earth. Then there will be one church, one gathering place where the called-out ones shall meet.
"...I heard as it were of a trumpet"; [This is the last trumpet] "...talking with me,". The voice here is not speaking to the church, but it is directed to John. "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be here after." That refers to the "day" that is after our subject, "The Lords Day". "I will shew thee [John, singular]", transporting John and John only, in the spirit to this certain place in heaven.
There is no church in this verse going anyplace. There is only John being taken to heaven in the spirit, and hearing a voice like a trumpet calling him up. John was taken from 90 A.D. to a time beyond this year, 1994; for we are living in the final generation. The whole purpose for John writing this entire book of Revelation is to warn the people of this generation of the great deception the Antichrist, and his system would bring upon the earth before Jesus Christ's return. We are living in the generation of the "parable of the fig tree" and that is why Jesus told us to learn it, so that we would not be deceived.
This fourth chapter then tells us what is going to happen after this generation on the "Day of the Lord" in heaven.
http://www.theseason.org/revelation/revelation4.htm
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
You do not possess the truth; the Bible does describe the Rapture - harpazo - in several places, and John does not go "back" to earth in Rev 7:1-3 but sees the whole earth ~ something which is NOT possible while standing on it.keras said:
You CLAIM the Throne is translated to earth when Jesus is upon Mount Zion, but the Wrath of God is YET to be released at that point. No, the Throne is still in Heaven when Rev 7:9-17 describes it, in the same place where John described the Heavenly Court in chapters 4 and 5.
So I don't trust your vision rabbi keras as you have maligned Scripture so often, even RE-WRITING it on occasion, and mixed it up with your Replacement Theology which has too many holes to stand up.
keras
Writer of Bible study guides
Yes, there is a 'harpazo', a meeting with Christ in the air, when He Returns. This in no way means, or even hints a going to live in heaven.Marcus O'Reillius said:
Re: Rev 7, John is in heaven, viewing earthly scenes. Nothing of what he sees happens in heaven.
Rev 14:3 plainly says the Throne is on Mt Zion, in Jerusalem, on earth. Proved by the 144,000 on earth in Rev 7. The Lord's Day of wrath happens at the Sixth Seal, all the cosmic effects and the earthly devastation.
Because the translation I use, the Revised English Bible, differs from the archaic and outmoded versions, with inserted doctrines and biased interpretations, that you and other Christians adhere to, then it doesn't suit your beliefs. But as the REB is a more accurate and better rendered translation and what it says is the truth.
I have said before, but you can't seem to bring yourself to read my posts properly, is that I don't espouse 'replacement theology', but the Restoration of all Israel. Which means all those lost sheep of Israel, who are now the Christian peoples will be gathered and go to live in the holy Land. Ezekiel 20:34-38 tells what will happen.
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
That is silly. The Throne is not on Mount Zion as Jesus and the 144,000 are about to do battle.keras said:
The voice is from Heaven. They sing the song. "They" are not identified but the 144,000 are the only ones who can learn the song.
The Throne is NOT on the earth any more than Isaiah 30:26 describes the sun erupting.
And you DO teach Replacement Theology, replacing OT prophecy for Israel during the Millennium with the Church.
Revelation 14:1 "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Si'-on, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads."
Mount Zion (Hebrew: הַר צִיוֹן, Har Tsiyyon; Arabic: جبل صهيون, Jabel Sahyoun) is a hill in Jerusalem just outside the walls of the Old City. The term Mount Zion has been used in the Hebrew Bible first for the City of David (2 Samuel 5:7, 1 Chronicles 11:5; 1 Kings 8:1, 2 Chronicles 5:2) and later for the Temple Mount, but its meaning has shifted and it is now used as the name of ancient Jerusalem's so-called Western Hill.[1][2] In a wider sense, the term is also used for the entire Land of Israel.[3]
Mount Zion (Hebrew: הַר צִיוֹן, Har Tsiyyon; Arabic: جبل صهيون, Jabel Sahyoun) is a hill in Jerusalem just outside the walls of the Old City. The term Mount Zion has been used in the Hebrew Bible first for the City of David (2 Samuel 5:7, 1 Chronicles 11:5; 1 Kings 8:1, 2 Chronicles 5:2) and later for the Temple Mount, but its meaning has shifted and it is now used as the name of ancient Jerusalem's so-called Western Hill.[1][2] In a wider sense, the term is also used for the entire Land of Israel.[3]
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
The KJV didn't add 'and'. It is there. What year was your REB translation made? Thus who changed?keras said:
Yes God can do as He pleases, and it pleased Him to rapture Enoch and Elijah to Heaven. Just as He will the Church.
Rev. 7:1-3 may be an earthly scene but John is still in Heaven,with the twenty four elders. Remember Rev.4:1
Stranger
keras
Writer of Bible study guides
In Galatians 6:16, the Greek word 'kai' is there. So it says:.... peace and mercy be upon them, [kai] the Israel of God.Stranger said:
kai; Strongs G2532, is used as a connective word; could be - and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yet.
So the context dictates the translation and the REB correctly places a comma there, as 'them' means Christians, as Paul has been expounding about in all of his letter. Maybe it could be better as - peace and mercy be upon all Christians, who are therefore the Israel of God.
Certainly it does not mean Christians and Jews, as Jews are not a part of Paul's teaching there.
The Revised English Bible, Oxford press 1988, is a careful complete re- translation of the Bible. It ensures the correct meaning of the texts is given, in the modern word meanings.
A rapture removal of the church to heaven is never stated in the Bible. Your dream will fail and you will be disappointed. But provided you don't renounce your faith, you will still partake in the blessings God has for His people in the holy Land.
Yes, John is in heaven, watching pre-plays of things to happen on earth. That the 'great multitude' of Rev 7:9 is on earth, is plain because they are the Lord's Christian people, gathered out of the nations, exactly as so many prophesies say and the 144,000 are selected from them.
Yes, the word is there and was not added. Modern translations have 'changed' it. So, as I said, your REB added, not the KJV.keras said:
What's the context that caused the REB to change the Bible?
Nothing is said about the people on earth being Christian in Rev. 7:4-8. They are said to be Israel, from each of the 12 tribes. Rev. 7:9 is in Heaven before the throne of Christ. See 9-17 and again, compare with 4:1.
Stranger
keras
Writer of Bible study guides
Stranger, I find this conversation interesting, as what you say shows me how far those who have believed a lie, [the rapture] will go to and to make further lies and added false beliefs.Stranger said:
In Galatians 1:2, Paul is talking to the church members there. The only mention of Jews in that book, is Galatians 3:26-29, where Paul says there is no such thing as Jew and Greek...for all Christians are one in Christ Jesus.
You want to maintain a separation? You conflict with scripture and promote the lie of Two Peoples, Two Promises.
You have carelessly confused the 144,000 with the great multitude, above. Try to be more accurate in your responses, even of you can't be scriptural.
Also the people in Rev 7:9 are the people of God, all those who passed thru the great ordeal, [or tribulation of the Sixth Seal disaster. Not The Great Trib, to come later.] and are dressed in white robes for their faith. We are told in many prophesies to stand firm in our faith and the Lord will protect us. NOT remove us.
We know from Rev 11:1 and 2 Thess 2:4, that there will be a new Temple on Mt Zion. The Throne of God, the Shekinah Glory will be in it, Ezekiel 43:1-4
So your idea that Rev 7 starts on earth, for the 144,000, then is in heaven for the great multitude, is wrong and simply isn't in scripture.
I don't conflict with Scripture. All who are in Christ are the Chruch. I've said that before. But the Church is not Israel.keras said:
I don't confuse the 144,000 who are Israel, with those in Heaven above. Where did I do that?
In Rev. 7 John is still in Heaven viewing an earthly scene. That scene is the sealing of the 144,000 of Israel. Twelve thousand from each tribe. Rev. 7:9-17 is John seeing a great multitude in Heaven who have come out of the Tribulation. See. 7:14. It is very Scriptural. Just read it.
Stranger
keras
Writer of Bible study guides
The word 'heaven' is not mentioned in Revelation 7. Please cease making false and untrue statements.
How can the 144,000 be the Israel you think they are, namely the Jews? The Jews only represent 2 of the 12 tribes.
Rev 7:14 doesn't refer to the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, that happens during the last 3.5 years prior the Jesus' Return. The Lord's people, dressed in white robes have come out of great tribulation, [singular] which obviously refers to the immediately previous event; the Sixth Seal cosmic and worldwide disaster.
Your determination to keep 2 peoples of God, leads you into many errors and compounds the false teaching of a rapture removal.
How can the 144,000 be the Israel you think they are, namely the Jews? The Jews only represent 2 of the 12 tribes.
Rev 7:14 doesn't refer to the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, that happens during the last 3.5 years prior the Jesus' Return. The Lord's people, dressed in white robes have come out of great tribulation, [singular] which obviously refers to the immediately previous event; the Sixth Seal cosmic and worldwide disaster.
Your determination to keep 2 peoples of God, leads you into many errors and compounds the false teaching of a rapture removal.
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