Rapture, Prophecy, Church, and the Nation of Israel- Last Generation

[Marcus O'Reillius]

The erroneous conclusion is Two People,

There are two people, to deny that is to deny the fact that for two thousand years we have had Jew and Christian.
Is rabbi keras' conclusion of error in error? Yes...

In fact, he would throw the Jews out entirely.

Jews, are just another of the ungodly nations.

Which, of course, makes for two people.
Then rabbi keras shows his ignorance of what God has promised in the past, saying there are not two promises...

(The erroneous conclusion is) Two Promises

There is the New Covenant - which the Jews forsake.

But while the Jews forsake Jesus, there is an unfulfilled covenant which God has made with them: the Davidic Covenant.

Jesus' first Advent - again which the Jews deny - satisfies part of the Davidic Covenant -- 1Chr 7:11-14:
(And when Jesus says the Kingdom of God is upon you, He is not "confirming" or making the Davidic Covenant stronger: He is fulfilling it.)

Moreover, I tell you that the Lord will build a house for you. 11 When your days are fulfilled that you must go to be with your fathers, that I will set up one of your descendants after you, who will be of your sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build for Me a house, and I will establish his throne forever. 13 I will be his father and he shall be My son; and I will not take My lovingkindness away from him, as I took it from him who was before you. 14 But I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom forever, and his throne shall be established forever."'" 15 According to all these words and according to all this vision, so Nathan spoke to David.

Still, this portion of the Davidic Covenant, which is unconditional, remains:

2Sam 7:10 I will also appoint a place for My people Israel and will plant them, that they may live in their own place and not be disturbed again, nor will the wicked afflict them any more as formerly, 11 even from the day that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies.

This has NEVER happened. This promise has YET to be fulfilled. As a matter of fact: the statue of Nebuchadnezzar shows how the nations will rule over Israel. Isn't it interesting that the Chinese dynasties, which rivaled Rome in both size, power, and length of history - are not mentioned? Is it because God did not foresee them? NO! It is because they have no role over Israel's history.

Do the Jews have rest from the muslim arabs that bomb, stab, shoot, and bomb them? No!
Do the Jews in Israel have complete independence from the Western powers that still rule against them at the UN? No!

This portion of the Davidic Covenant remains unfulfilled.
And does rabbi keras not know of the Davidic Covenant? It would seem he doesn't!

So there ARE Two Promises. In fact, there are more than Two.

Is rabbi keras saying that God cannot fulfill His Promise to the Jews?
Yes and no.
rabbi keras throws the Jews under the bus and then replaces them with Christians.

To say as rabbi keras does, that the Jews are lost - is to say that God cannot save them.
That is NOT what Paul, a Jew, says!

Rom 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

This flies in the face of Replacement Theology which rabbi keras teaches to the blind.
There will be a Remnant of the Jews.
This is part of the end-time prophecy.
Paul talks about it here, going back to the Prophets:

"I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." Rom 11:5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.

This is written in Revelation:
Speaking of the "Woman" "Israel" - and the image in Rev 12:1 is explained in Genesis 37:9-11 as being the Hebrew nation of

Rev 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

And again here, in the second of the two twin parallel accounts of Revelation chapter 12:

13 And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. 17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

The difference between JEW and CHRISTIAN is shown in verse 17.
THERE ARE TWO PEOPLE.
We are the offspring of the Woman.

She is the natural branch.
Israel was the olive tree that went "wild" and became unfruitful.
When an olive tree is not pruned, it will go "wild" and it will stop producing fruit.
THE ONLY WAY TO RESTORE AN OLIVE TREE WHICH HAS GONE WILD IS TO CUT IT DOWN LEAVING A STUMP.
THEN, AND ONLY THEN, WILL A SHOOT COME UP.
That shoot will grow into a tree.
And if that tree is pruned and maintained, it will bear fruit again.

Jesus cut off the unfruitful Jews.
He Himself, then becomes the tree into which we are a part.
We were of other trees.
We have been grafted into the "shoot" of Jesus sprung out of the root of Jesse.
And if we have been grafted into this Jewish tree - cannot the natural branches, which have been cut down, and set to the side, not be rejoined?

That is the argument Paul makes here.

Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

The whole purpose of the Millennium is to graft the Remnant back into the tree of Jesus.
In this way, TWO PEOPLE are UNITED IN CHRIST.

And during the Millennium - God WILL FULFILL that part of the Davidic Covenant to the Jews.

 

[keras]

Rev 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

The difference between JEW and CHRISTIAN is shown in verse 17.
THERE ARE TWO PEOPLE.
We are the offspring of the Woman. Quote: Marcus.

Reply: Keras,
The Two Peoples are simply the true believers in God and the ungodly people. There are Jews in both peoples, just as there are Americans and New Zealanders in both peoples.
Jews as a separate people are not mentioned in Rev 12, or anywhere else in Revelation.

All the 'children of the woman', are Christians, but those who 'violated the Covenant', Daniel 11:32 remain in the Land, while those who kept faithful are taken to a place of safety. Zechariah 14:2 also shows this separation of the Christian people when the Anti-Christ conquers the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, then living in all of the holy Land.


Marcus said: To say as rabbi keras does, that the Jews are lost - is to say that God cannot save them.
That is NOT what Paul, a Jew, says!

Rom 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

​Keras reply: ​Many Jews have accepted Jesus, obviously there has to be at least 12,000 as per Rev 7:5.
​You think that an Israelite is only a Jew? Quite wrong, as there are 12 tribes and only Judah and Benjamin comprise the Jewish people. The other 10 tribes remain scattered among the nations and have, in the main become Christian. As God planned it to be, Deuteronomy 4:27-31

​You avoid the fact of there being only ONE people of God; true Christian from every tribe, race, nation and language, Rev 5:9-10, and everybody else. You precious 'rapture to heaven' dream is a false hope and even your quote of Rev 12:17 refutes it.

 

[Stranger]

Not understanding why you mocking when he's giving sound biblical doctrine....

Let me ask you the question,who is Israel from your understanding?

Apparently I disagree that it is 'sound biblical doctrine'.

Can you not tell from what I have already said who I believe Israel is?

Stranger

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

From the writer of Bible Study Guides who thinks God kills on a day that He heals (Isa 30:26)

Jews as a separate people are not mentioned in Rev 12, or anywhere else in Revelation.

You can rely on what rabbi keras thinks of Revelation chapter 12 with as much authority as he does on Isaiah 30:26.

​You avoid the fact of there being only ONE people of God; true Christian from every tribe, race, nation and language,

Ridiculous on its face; I said: The whole purpose of the Millennium is to graft the Remnant back into the tree of Jesus.
In this way, TWO PEOPLE are UNITED IN CHRIST.

You precious 'rapture to heaven' dream is a false hope and even your quote of Rev 12:17 refutes it.

Remember, rabbi keras is on a mission to destroy what Paul said we are to share in comfort to one another. Consider the source when reading his "works".

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[keras]

The Post-trib rapture, as Paul details in 1 Thess 4:15-17 and Jesus says in Matthew 24:31, occurs when He Returns to the earth. Those who kept their faith during the testing times leading up to His Return, will be gathered and will then always be with Him; on earth. These are comforting Words.

The gathering at the Return is what is stated in the prophesies and has been standard Church teaching until the new theory of a pre-trib rapture was promoted last century and now is often the only end times doctrine taught in many church's. Once this escapist and 'easy way out' idea has been taught and believed by people, it is very difficult to change, even scriptural proofs of what God really does plan for His people, usually has no effect.
But one Day we all will stand before Jesus and to have to admit to Him; I taught wrong doctrines, that will be harder than it is to change now. The truth matters and we must have greater allegiance to the Word of God, than to theories, ideas and fanciful notions learned from men, no matter how scholarly they are.

Jesus said: Father, You hide these things from the learned and wise and reveal them to the uneducated. Matthew 11:25

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

The Post-trib rapture, as Paul details in 1 Thess 4:15-17 and Jesus says in Matthew 24:31,

There is no indication that the Rapture, described both by Paul, and so named because of it in 1Th 4:16, and what Jesus described before with the gathering of the Elect happens at the END of the one 'seven' as classical "Post-Trib" is used.

But one Day we all will stand before Jesus and to have to admit to Him; I taught wrong doctrines, that will be harder than it is to change now. The truth matters and we must have greater allegiance to the Word of God, than to theories, ideas and fanciful notions learned from men, no matter how scholarly they are.

This from a person who still thinks the sun will explode in Isaiah 30:26 and burn the earth.

 

[keras]

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven.....
1 Thess 4:15 - is quite clear; this gathering happens at the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign. There is no point in His people going to heaven, as He has come to the earth.

The sun will shine with seven times its wonted brightness, like seven days in one and the moon will shine as bright as the sun....
​Isaiah 30:26 tells us of a dramatic cosmic events. The sun emits a steady stream of light to microwaves, giving out light and heat. For it to suddenly increase it's output sevenfold, our planet will be severely affected. Proportionally, the normal moon shining to that of seven times increased reflection, it would be as bright as the sun.
So, ambient temperature multiplied by seven is about oven heat. Proved by Malachi 4:1 the Day comes, burning like a oven.....
​Denial of what we are plainly told will happen, simply leaves you in the dark.

On that Day of the Lord's wrath, we are told to call upon the Name of the Lord for His protection. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21 He promises to save and redeem His people. Isaiah 30:29

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven.....
1 Thess 4:15 - is quite clear; this gathering happens at the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign. There is no point in His people going to heaven, as He has come to the earth.

Uh-oh! There's that "CLEAR" word again!
So, we know, that what comes after is not "clear" at all, but the prior conclusion of the writer.

In Revelation 14, there is a 1:2 sequence whereby Jesus comes on the clouds to gather the Harvest - just like 1Th 4:16 - AND THEN an Angel provides the blood for God's winepress of Wrath, at the direction of the Angel who has charge of the fire. These are two of the three elements for the Day of the Lord's Wrath (the third being smoke).

The Harvest:
Rev 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, " Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Charging the Winepress:
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. 18 Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, " Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe." 19 So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. 20 And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses' bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.

The reason for removal of the Harvest of Wheat (the Elect) is that it then allows the tares, who have been collected, (different verb in Mt 13) to be burned in the field. The earth, especially around Jerusalem and in Israel, is about to become a very inhospitable place to live.

The Day of the LORD is two-fold. There is Rapture and then Wrath.
________________________________________

The same order of Rescue then Wrath can be seen in the Seal/Scroll Chronology of Revelation chapters 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13) whereby the Great Multitude are presented before the Father's Throne in Heaven BEFORE the Scroll is opened, and the Wrath of God goes out in the first Trumpet - which AGAIN - supplies both fire and blood.

So the point is that we are removed from the face of the earth, because for the next three plus years, the earth will be desolated by the desolations God will bring upon the wicked.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

​Isaiah 30:26 tells us of a dramatic cosmic events. The sun emits a steady stream of light to microwaves, giving out light and heat. For it to suddenly increase it's output sevenfold, our planet will be severely affected.

rabbi keras takes the poetic, figurative rendering of prophecy, with the God-number 7, - which happens on a Day when God HEALS - and taking it literally, says that we will be harmed - on a Day God HEALS.

That is incongruent with Isaiah's statement.

The sun shining is poetically and figuratively set opposite the darkness, the foreboding, which awaits the unrepentant, unbelieving Jews in Israel who have the Day of the Lord come suddenly upon them!

 

[keras]

Uh-oh! There's that "CLEAR" word again!
So, we know, that what comes after is not "clear" at all, but the prior conclusion of the writer.

So the point is that we are removed from the face of the earth, because for the next three plus years, the earth will be desolated by the desolations God will bring upon the wicked.

Clear: understandable, easily ascertained.
1Thess 4:15 indisputably says Jesus has left heaven in order to come to the earth for His Millennium reign. You deny that truth to your shame.

Saying we are removed from the earth is your prior conclusion. For starters, you judge yourself worthy to go to heaven, without any testing of your faith, as we are told will happen, 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Cor 10:13, Rev 13:10
Rev 12 tells us what will happen to God's people during the Great Trib period and it is NOT going to heaven. That is simply a lie of Satan that many have fallen for.

 

[keras]

rabbi keras takes the poetic, figurative rendering of prophecy, with the God-number 7, - which happens on a Day when God HEALS - and taking it literally, says that we will be harmed - on a Day God HEALS.

That is incongruent with Isaiah's statement.

The sun shining is poetically and figuratively set opposite the darkness, the foreboding, which awaits the unrepentant, unbelieving Jews in Israel who have the Day of the Lord come suddenly upon them!

This is absolute twisted false teaching.
If a prophetic statement is able to be read and fulfilled literally, making it to be an allegory is a serious mistake.

The terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath will come upon the whole world. Isaiah 66:15-16, Zephaniah 3:8 The Middle east will be most severely affected, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Amos 1:1-15, Amos 2:1-5, and many will die around the world. Isaiah 51:6, Jeremiah 25:30-31, but most will survive, to form a One World govt. Those Christians who stood firm in their faith during that Day will be protected and cleansed of their sins. Ezekiel 36:24-38

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

1Thess 4:15 indisputably says Jesus has left heaven in order to come to the earth for His Millennium reign.

1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

indisputably: adjective 1. not disputable or deniable; uncontestable. indisputable evidence. 2. unquestionably real, valid, or the like.

It is so CLEAR! Isn't it?
Where is it?
Ah, it's not even there.
In fact, there's no mention of Christ Jesus' iron rule Millennium reign at all.

So before I was "nasty" to show that what rabbi keras says, isn't so.
Now I "deny (his) truth" to my shame!
Oh, woe is me!

Actually, I'm doing quite well.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Those Christians who stood firm in their faith during that Day will be protected and cleansed of their sins. Ezekiel 36:24-38

More false teaching from rabbi keras? Yep.

On the Day of the Lord, we are gathered up, those of us who are still alive and are left after the Great Tribulation; will see Jesus coming on the clouds with the Saints resurrected from Paradise, and they will be gathered up (harpazo) in the Rapture.

Ezk 36:24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.

It was ancient Israel that had a problem with idol worship; not Christians.
rabbi keras once again is employing Replacement Theology and substituting the Church for natural Israel, the people.

In Ezekiel's Israel of the Millennium, they worship the Lord through the Jewish sacrificial system. We do not; nor have we need to do that.
We are in Heaven before the Throne of the Father holding palm branches and praising Him in true worship.

 

[keras]

1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

indisputably: adjective 1. not disputable or deniable; uncontestable. indisputable evidence. 2. unquestionably real, valid, or the like.

It is so CLEAR! Isn't it?
Where is it?
Ah, it's not even there.
In fact, there's no mention of Christ Jesus' iron rule Millennium reign at all.

....the coming of the Lord....
Acts 1:11 ...Jesus who has been taken from you to heaven, will come again in the same way as you have seen Him go.
Revelation 19:11 ...heaven opened and Jesus appeared...
Revelation 22:30...Behold, I am coming soon....

Indisputably the same 'coming' as Paul refers to. His Return to destroy the armies of the Anti-Christ and bind Satan.
No mention of any rapture to heaven there or anywhere in the Bible.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

No mention of any rapture to heaven there or anywhere in the Bible.

Nonsense. Rapture is in the Bible.

Rapture verbs—the general English meanings of the Greek words used:

• MT 24:31 to come upon, come after
• MT 24:40 to take over, to receive, to inherit
• MK 13:27 to come upon, come after
• MK 16:19 to carry up
• LK 9:51 a taking up: ascension
• LK 17:34-35 to take over, to receive, to inherit
• LK 24:51 to take up, raise
• JN 14:3 to take over, to receive, to inherit
• AC 1:9-11 to lift up
• 1CO 15:51-54 to change
• 2CO 4:14 to waken, to raise up
• 2CO 12:2-4 to seize, to catch up, to snatch away
• 1TH 4:16-17 to seize, to catch up, to snatch away
• 2TI 2:18 (resurrection) a standing up, a raising up, rising
• 1TI 3:16 to take up, raise
• HEB 11:5 to transfer, change
  

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Acts 1:11 Revelation 19:11; 22:30 Indisputably the same 'coming' as Paul refers to.

No, Paul was NOT referring to a book which was written AFTER he was executed by the Romans.

That is just plain ridiculous.
About as ridiculous as saying God kills on a day He heals (Isaiah 30:26).

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Revelation 19:11 ...heaven opened and Jesus appeared...

Taken out of context: Jesus is on a white horse with His Army (which must include the 144,000 by fact of verse) and is about to slay the army of the world headed up by the anti-Christ.

This is not the scene when Jesus comes on the clouds with the Saints resurrected from Paradise on the Day of the Lord - which happens after the shortened Great Tribulation.

 

[n2thelight]

Taken out of context: Jesus is on a white horse with His Army (which must include the 144,000 by fact of verse) and is about to slay the army of the world headed up by the anti-Christ.

This is not the scene when Jesus comes on the clouds with the Saints resurrected from Paradise on the Day of the Lord - which happens after the shortened Great Tribulation.

Oh but it is....Those that Christ brings with Him, are those that who have died,prior to His return...That's the part you can't seem to understand.

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

Mark 13:26 "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory."

Same event,His one and only 2nd coming....

And the Church is still here!!

 

[n2thelight]

Nonsense. Rapture is in the Bible.

Rapture verbs—the general English meanings of the Greek words used:

• MT 24:31 to come upon, come after
• MT 24:40 to take over, to receive, to inherit
• MK 13:27 to come upon, come after
• MK 16:19 to carry up
• LK 9:51 a taking up: ascension
• LK 17:34-35 to take over, to receive, to inherit
• LK 24:51 to take up, raise
• JN 14:3 to take over, to receive, to inherit
• AC 1:9-11 to lift up
• 1CO 15:51-54 to change
• 2CO 4:14 to waken, to raise up
• 2CO 12:2-4 to seize, to catch up, to snatch away
• 1TH 4:16-17 to seize, to catch up, to snatch away
• 2TI 2:18 (resurrection) a standing up, a raising up, rising
• 1TI 3:16 to take up, raise
• HEB 11:5 to transfer, change
  

Please tell me how you using Matt and Mark,when scripture clearly says in those books that His coming is after the trib?

And did you not know that the 13th of Mark has all the seals of Rev within it's chapter?

 

[keras]

When Paul got news of some concerns among the Christians in Thessalonica, where he had established a church, he addressed their concern in a letter to these Thessalonians. One of their concerns had to do with the fate of dead Christians, particularly what would be the nature of their relationship with Jesus at the time of “the coming of the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 4:15), which they were all anticipating would soon take place. So Paul addresses their concern with a brief explanation regarding the return of Jesus that is recorded in this letter (see 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18) which states that Jesus is going to “descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord” (vss. 16–17). These two passages of Scripture are referred to as the doctrine of The Rapture, as he physically manifests himself again to the world and gathers His righteous believers to Himself. Note that Paul doesn’t cite any particular signs as to when this will take place or what will precede this event, but we know from Matthew 24:29-30, Mark 13:24-26 and the Book of Revelation, that the Return of Jesus happens after the Great Tribulation.
It should also be clear from Paul’s words that he is referring to “the coming of the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 4:15) to this earth where the resurrected “dead in Christ” (vs. 16) and those “who are alive” (vs. 17) will “be with the Lord” (vs. 17) on this earth and not back in heaven.

​The 'rapture to heaven' theory is bunk, a Satanic deception, it isn't in the Bible, just a gathering from wherever those Christians are on earth, to where Jesus has come down from heaven to; that is: Jerusalem, Zechariah 14:3