RAPTURE QUESTIONS
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Rocky Wiley
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at 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Christians are living with the wicked ones, but at harvest time, God will tell the angels together the tares, the wicked ones, and burn them but put the wheat, Christians, in his barn.
Helen
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Rapturists don't need to hold their breath...there will be no rapture of Gods people out of trouble...we are not here "for it"( trouble) but we will be here through it..
Isa 43
"When you pass through the waters,I will be with you;
and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you.
When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned;
neither the flames set you ablaze."
" Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness."
"God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble."
Isa 43
"When you pass through the waters,I will be with you;
and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you.
When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned;
neither the flames set you ablaze."
" Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness."
"God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble."
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
This passage is not about the church. It is about the tribulation. Jesus was talking about an earthly harvest. Jesus was not talking about the church harvest. The church has been harvesting for 1990 years. The rapture is not an escape clause. The rapture is the end of the bride's work on earth. The groom is going to take over, and the church will be with God.
1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] BEHOLD, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
scripture says that the “rapture” occurs as the LAST TRUMPET is blown.
MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. You cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation. Can youse explain? Come on you Rapturist, if ya cant explain this im afraid your pre or mid trib rapture is shot down
scripture says that the “rapture” occurs as the LAST TRUMPET is blown.
MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. You cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation. Can youse explain? Come on you Rapturist, if ya cant explain this im afraid your pre or mid trib rapture is shot down
Keraz
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The Last Trumpet is to call up everyone who has ever lived to stand before God on His Great White Throne, Revelation 20:11-15
Those whose names are found in the Book of Life will receive Immortality and will live with God on earth. Revelation 21:1-7
1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is a prophecy about the GWT Judgment. Proved by how it is only then, that Death is no more.
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On the basis of Psalm 110 in the Old Testament, few dispensationalists would even see the church in the Old Testament in the first place; as Ephesians shows, the church is a revealed New Testament mystery. Expressed contemporaneously, it would be like showing CNN an empty jail cell as "proof" of someone's escape, when in fact there was no one in the cell in the first place. (Mind you, it's never stopped CNN before from putting its own slant on facts.)
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
As you will see below, St. Augustine, preeminent among the Church Fathers, presented the common view of the "Rapture" of the Church. It will take place on the "Last Day."
There is no place for a "Pretribulational Rapture." Augustine, despite some errors in doctrine, such as his allegorical view of the Millennium, is presenting an uncontested view of when the Rapture would take place. This excludes any early view of a Pretribulational Rapture, even if it may be debated what is meant by "imminent expectation."
Many Christians viewed that Christ's Coming was relatively "soon," since even Christ said that. But that did not mean that they thought Christ could come "at any moment," or even before the reign of Antichrist.
Augustine sees Christ coming from heaven to render judgment upon *all men,* whether good or evil, on the "Last Day." This is the judgment of the Church, as well as the judgment of the Wicked. He wrote, "In that day true and full happiness shall be the lot of none but the good."
Augustine here, in the "City of God," argues that "judgment" does not wait until the Last Day to be effected, but takes place all through history, whenever and wherever sin takes place. However, he places "Final Judgment" at the 2nd Coming of Christ from heaven, which takes place on the "Last Day." Thus, for Augustine and for all the Church Fathers, Christ returns from heaven for his Church on the literal "Last Day" of the age, when both the saints and the sinners are to be judged in a final way.
Intending to speak, in dependence on God's grace, of the day of His final judgment, and to affirm it against the ungodly and incredulous, we must first of all lay, as it were, in the foundation of the edifice the divine declarations. Those persons who do not believe such declarations do their best to oppose to them false and illusive sophisms of their own, either contending that what is adduced from Scripture has another meaning, or altogether denying that it is an utterance of God's. For I suppose no man who understands what is written, and believes it to be communicated by the supreme and true God through holy men, refuses to yield and consent to these declarations, whether he orally confesses his consent, or is from some evil influence ashamed or afraid to do so; or even, with an opinionativeness closely resembling madness, makes strenuous efforts to defend what he knows and believes to be false against what he knows and believes to be true.
That, therefore, which the whole Church of the true God holds and professes as its creed, that Christ shall come from heaven to judge quick and dead, this we call the last day, or last time, of the divine judgment. For we do not know how many days this judgment may occupy; but no one who reads the Scriptures, however negligently, need be told that in them day is customarily used for time. And when we speak of the day of God's judgment, we add the word last or final for this reason, because even now God judges, and has judged from the beginning of human history, banishing from paradise, and excluding from the tree of life, those first men who perpetrated so great a sin. Yea, He was certainly exercising judgment also when He did not spare the angels who sinned, whose prince, overcome by envy, seduced men after being himself seduced. Neither is it without God's profound and just judgment that the life of demons and men, the one in the air, the other on earth, is filled with misery, calamities, and mistakes. And even though no one had sinned, it could only have been by the good and right judgment of God that the whole rational creation could have been maintained in eternal blessedness by a persevering adherence to its Lord. He judges, too, not only in the mass, condemning the race of devils and the race of men to be miserable on account of the original sin of these races, but He also judges the voluntary and personal acts of individuals. For even the devils pray that they may not be tormented, Matthew 8:29 which proves that without injustice they might either be spared or tormented according to their deserts. And men are punished by God for their sins often visibly, always secretly, either in this life or after death, although no man acts rightly save by the assistance of divine aid; and no man or devil acts unrighteously save by the permission of the divine and most just judgment. For, as the apostle says, There is no unrighteousness with God; Romans 9:14 and as he elsewhere says, His judgments are inscrutable, and His ways past finding out. Romans 11:33 In this book, then, I shall speak, as God permits, not of those first judgments, nor of these intervening judgments of God, but of the last judgment, when Christ is to come from heaven to judge the quick and the dead. For that day is properly called the day of judgment, because in it there shall be no room left for the ignorant questioning why this wicked person is happy and that righteous man unhappy. In that day true and full happiness shall be the lot of none but the good, while deserved and supreme misery shall be the portion of the wicked, and of them only. CHURCH FATHERS: City of God, Book XX (St. Augustine)
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Agree! Jesus said his disciples are not greater than their master. We aren't greater than Christ! If he had to suffer, we also have to suffer. Anybody out there who hasn't suffered in his or her life?
This is a tough world, and we can't say we deserved it when we are born into it. It's simply our fate, just as it was Jesus' fate to come into a fallen world to redeem fallen men. To come here he had to suffer. So to save us he had to come here and suffer the world's ills, including the world's hostility towards God.
We will suffer, whether it is the ills of the world or persecution from the ungodly. We will not get out of here alive, unless we survive the time of Antichrist's reign.
I think Antichrist will enjoy "superpower" status for 3.5 years, but will largely rule in Europe. That will be the worst place to be--the heart of Christian Civilization, now backslidden and apostate.
But after 3.5 years things will change. Perhaps the nations will begin to throw off his authority. The nations, after all, are destined to be redeemed, just like Israel is destined to be redeemed. At some point, remnants from all nations will embrace Christ when he comes to bring judgment against the Antichrist.
Well as i thought. The Rapturist cant answer the LAST TRUMPET question. So lets look at the actual LAST TRUMPET in scripture. Its a MYSTERY!
1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
MYSTERY—last trumpet {it shall sound} – The LAST one! – No more trumpets to be blown – Its the LAST trumpet!
REVELATION 8 [1] And when he had opened THE SEVENTH SEAL, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. [2] And I saw the SEVEN ANGELS which stood before God; and to them were given SEVEN TRUMPETS.
Seventh angel has a trumpet. It shall sound. Its also the LAST one to be heard. Its also AFTER the trib period
REVELATION 10 [6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: [7] But in the days of the voice of THE SEVENTH ANGEL, when he shall begin to sound, THE MYSTERY OF GOD SHOULD BE FINISHED, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
MYSTERY SOLVED! The seventh angel begins to sound. This is the LAST trumpet you find being blown in the bible
REVELATION 16 [17] And the SEVENTH ANGEL poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, IT IS DONE.
REVELATION 11 [14] The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. [15]And THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
As i said before, we do not flit off to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event. As the seventh angel sounds the trumpet the kingdoms of this world are to become the kingdoms of the Lord and thats where the Lord will bring us after meeting Him in the air. His kingdom, right here on Gods green earth
Europe was never the heart of Christian anything.
As for 'in Europe', have you seen (in the news) how many people have caved and are willingly wearing masks all day long, or whenever seen in public , in the USA !?!
The rule is not written in Scripture as if it is going to be in any country or small group of countries , is it ? Throughout Africa, South America , Asia, Russia, it has been ruling .... and yes, even in the usa....
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Seriously?
You need to read some history.
Here in the US a lot of people wear masks out in public. God is judging us, and we, as a nation, deserve it. It is not the Beast system, but it is the result of the trend in former Christendom of going apostate. We've compromised our religion, and now have abandoned it. Fortunately, there are still many good and strong Christians in the US, and I would suppose, in Europe too. But I do expect the Antichristian Empire to emerge shortly--perhaps within the next 20 years. I can't make real predictions at this point.
"Joseph77 said: ↑
Europe was never the heart of Christian anything.
Seriously?
You need to read some history."
Very serious. The victors rewrite history, remember? (or never knew ? ) Then find out.
Europe was never the heart of Christian anything.
Seriously?
You need to read some history."
Very serious. The victors rewrite history, remember? (or never knew ? ) Then find out.
Seriously ?
Read what God Revealed through one or all: Martin Luther, Charles Chiniquoy, and Keith Green
about the beast and the beast system///. the anti-christ.
When I read / devoured the Scripture through and through, and God Revealed in the Apocalypse the end hours,
I thought or realized - this is not going to just all of a sudden happen over-night (nor even in twenty nor a hundred years) ...
It has been (as revealed by God though those above, and many others, and mainly in His Word)
"in place" developing, as written, for generations, to deceive the whole world, as it has.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I'm very familiar with Luther, since I was raised and confirmed as a Lutheran. I don't know anything about Chiniquoy, but I regularly listen to Keith Green's songs on youtube. I'm not sure what you're saying? Luther believed the Papacy was the Antichrist, and thus, was a postribulationist. I have no idea what Keith Green believed on the subject?
Update: I just looked up Chiniquy, and found his story interesting. I was interested to learn that one of his followers, Jack Chick, derived his inspiraton for Chick tracts from Chiniquy, or so it seems. I used to read them a lot!
I'm not a Catholic basher, nor am I interested in bashing "high church organizations." At one time Christianity was state-wide, and most all citizens of a state were Christian, no matter how genuine their faith and practice. I would expect that many Catholics not act well, and that the leadership suffer some corruption over time. And I do think that many of the high churches, including the RCC, have suffered serious corruption!
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Well not "THE antichrist perhaps", but the office is.... of the beast.. .yes, as God revealed to all the Reformers for hundreds of years,
and to thousands of Waldensians and Anabaptists etc etc etc (the true believers persecuted and killed by both catholic and protestant authorities, and secular authorities .... )
Keith Green was assassinated for / or died after if you'd rather/. publishing the catholic chronicles which exposed the darkness vividly and clearly.... as God Directed....
Charles Chiniquoy, "Fifty Years", (both Keith and Charles available online I think) ,
he was a priest welcome and high in rank in the USA, Canada and Europe,
until he got saved. Then he was excommunicated , and later wrote the expose with a humongous amount of inside personal and often hidded before knowledge.
His congregation all freely and voluntarily left the abomination at the same time he did -
as God says "Come out of her My people" ....
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Davy
Well-Known Member
That's what God's Word teaches, but many aren't that interested in what God's Word teaches; they instead like to listen to men and read a lot of so-called religious books written by men. They remind me of those at Athens which the Apostles met who were always discussing the latest philosophical theory, ever studying but never coming to the Truth.
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