RAPTURE QUESTIONS

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BOWnQUIVER

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The end of 1 Thess. 4 speaks of the Rapture of the church; the beginning of 1 Thess. 5 speaks of the Day of the Lord in judgment upon earth.

Well Farouk 1Thes4 is all about the Day of the Lord. Easy to prove.

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord takes place AFTER the tribulation period
 
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BOWnQUIVER

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Well Farouk 1Thes4 is all about the Day of the Lord. Easy to prove....

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord takes place AFTER the tribulation period

OOOOPS
 
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Keraz

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It is evident that there are two separate ‘Days of the Lord’ in which the Lord acts to punish His enemies. The Sixth Seal, the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, is the next prophesied event that we can expect, of a worldwide judgement/punishment by fire from the sun, which will clear and cleanse His Land. Most clearly described in Isaiah 30:25-30, Isaiah 63:1-6 and Habakkuk 3:12 ‘Furiously You traverse the earth, in anger You trample down the nations.’ But the Lord is not seen: Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11

Then, much later, at the Return of Jesus, is the Sixth and Seventh Bowl fulfilment, the great Day of the Sovereign Lord, when He disposes of the armies of the Anti Christ.
Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-5
 

BOWnQUIVER

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It is evident that there are two separate ‘Days of the Lord’ in which the Lord acts to punish His enemies.

EZEK 39 [8] Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

This is the day. Does not say this is one of the days of the lord. Theres only one Day of the Lord
 

Enoch111

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There is not going to be a rapture. At the end of this age the wicked are taken and burned. We will be here on earth and be forever with our LORD.
You would be wise to refrain from making comments on subjects which you know nothing about. By making such remarks you make God and Christ out to be liars.

The Resurrection/Rapture of the saints of God is one of the key doctrines of Scripture. And the eternal home of the Church is the New Jerusalem, which is in Heaven. There will be others on earth but not the Church.
 

Rocky Wiley

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You would be wise to refrain from making comments on subjects which you know nothing about. By making such remarks you make God and Christ out to be liars.

The Resurrection/Rapture of the saints of God is one of the key doctrines of Scripture. And the eternal home of the Church is the New Jerusalem, which is in Heaven. There will be others on earth but not the Church.

Think old testament!

When Jesus comes again it will be to take the wicked and burn them. Rev is about the old, it was written just prior to 70 AD when the end of the old age pasted away completely. I think I will post that soon.

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
 

BOWnQUIVER

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The Resurrection/Rapture of the saints of God is one of the key doctrines of Scripture.

Enoch, if what you say is true. Answer 1 simple question

1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] BEHOLD, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

scripture says that the “rapture” occurs as the LAST TRUMPET is blown.

MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. You cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation. Can you explain?
 
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Enoch111

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Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. You cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation. Can you explain?
The Bible is speaking about TWO DIFFERENT TRUMPETS sounded for TWO DIFFERENT REASONS.

1. For the Resurrection/Rapture the "last trump" is "the trum[pet] of God" sounded to summon the saints to Heaven: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thess 4:16)

2. For the Great Tribulation, the seventh trumpet (which is NOT called "the last trumpet") is to announce the MOST SEVERE vials of God's wrath: And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. (Rev 16:17-19)
 

Joseph77

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Update: I just looked up Chiniquy, and found his story interesting.
excerpt from fifty years introduction:

"Chiniquy aspired to the priesthood of Rome, but his joy of being ordained a priest of Rome became "as if a thunderbolt had fallen upon me when I pronounced the awful oath which is required from every priest:

'I will never interpret the Holy Scriptures except according to the unanimous consent of the Holy Fathers' " (excerpt from Chiniquy's "Fifty Years in the Church of Rome"). How unlikeRome's oath is the Scripture, "20But ye have an Unction [Greek, chrisma] from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 27But the Anointing [Greek, chrisma, or unction]

which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same Anointing teachethyou of all things, and is Truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him" (1John 2:20,27)!As a proponent of total abstinence from alcoholic beverages, he was vehemently opposed by his drunken fellow priests.

"For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre" (Titus 1:7). He was horrified at the liberties taken by the priests of Rome, especially with their female confessors, who wererequired to confess their most intimate faults to the ears of a man, in the name of Auricular Confession. "For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret" (Ephesians 5:12).

He led an effort to bring Catholicism to the United States by bringing in a large colony of French
Canadian Catholics to the state of Illinois. Attacked by jealous priests,

Chiniquy was compelled to require the services of Abraham Lincoln, who ably defeated the Jesuits in open court battle; however, as Chiniquy warned, the Jesuits would not forgive or forget their wound. Chiniquy later demonstrated that Lincoln's assassination in 1865 by John Wilkes Booth was carefully orchestrated by a conspiracy of Jesuit-Catholic accomplices. "Lest Satan should get anadvantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices" (2Corinthians 2:11).

Suffice it to say that Chiniquy's breaking into the full freedom and liberty of the Gospel was aided by the whale vomiting its unwanted meal. Rome ultimately excommunicated Chiniquy, but not before he gave his resignation. The bishop "answered angrily: 'Mr. Chiniquy, I am your superior, I do not want to argue with you.

You are inferior: your business is to obey me. Give me at once an act of submission, in which you will simply say that you and your people will submit yourselves to my authority, and promise to do anything I will bid you.'

I calmly answered: 'What you ask me is not an act of submission, it is an act of adoration. I do absolutely refuse to give it.'

'If it be so, sir,' he answered, 'you can no longer be a Roman Catholic priest.' I raised my hands to heaven, and cried with a loud voice:

'May God Almighty be for ever blessed'" (excerpt from Chiniquy's "Fifty Years in the Church of Rome").

"So then it is not of him thatwilleth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy" (Romans 9:16).Chiniquy returned to his room to contemplate the enormity of his situation.

Taking his New Testament, he glanced providentially at these words, "Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men" (1Corinthians 7:23).

Gospel Salvation now became very plain to this former priest. "Strange to say! Those words came to my mind, more as a light than an articulated sound.

They suddenly but most beautifully and powerfully gave me, as much as a man can know it, the knowledge of the great mystery of a

perfect salvation through

Christ alone. They at once brought a great and delightful calm to my soul."
 
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Behold

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Does anyone here know what the final sign is, that is happening right now, that shows us that Jesus is about to come and get His Bride?
I can tell you, but as this Thread is 5 pages deep, and im not going to read it all, ...who knows the answer?
Step up... and no the Virus is not the sign.
 

farouk

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Since the rapture of the church is a New Testament doctrine, one would not expect to see the church in the Old Testament in any case.
 

Keraz

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Does anyone here know what the final sign is, that is happening right now, that shows us that Jesus is about to come and get His Bride?
I can tell you, but as this Thread is 5 pages deep, and im not going to read it all, ...who knows the answer?
Step up... and no the Virus is not the sign.
My advice to you, is to be ready for dramatic things; a huge world changer that will set the scene for all the prophesies about the time before Jesus Returns; to take place.
We will all be here on earth, where the Lord Promises wonderful Blessings to His people. Isaiah 65:20-23, Psalms 37:29
Stand strong in your faith, prove your trust in the Lord and endure until the end, when all who do this will be amply rewarded. Matthew 24:13, Matthew 16:27
 
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Enoch111

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...and no the Virus is not the sign.
The way is being prepared very effectively for the reign of the Antichrist through the TOTALITARIANISM which has resulted from the pandemic. The general population has meekly submitted to (1) useless lock downs, (2) useless social distancing, (3) useless masks, (4) useless remedies like Remdesivir, and (5) useless vaccines like the one being presently tested. This is happening right across the globe.

There is not a single political leader who has had the courage to call for an INDEPENDENT investigation into all the entities connected with this pandemic, as well as those who have been violently opposing the use of HCQ (which is not only cheap but extremely effective).

Before the reign of the Antichrist goes into effect, the Holy Spirit and the Church will be "taken out of the way". They will be removed to Heaven. So this totalitarianism is a *sign* of things to come.
 
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Nancy

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The way is being prepared very effectively for the reign of the Antichrist through the TOTALITARIANISM which has resulted from the pandemic. The general population has meekly submitted to (1) useless lock downs, (2) useless social distancing, (3) useless masks, (4) useless remedies like Remdesivir, and (5) useless vaccines like the one being presently tested. This is happening right across the globe.

There is not a single political leader who has had the courage to call for an INDEPENDENT investigation into all the entities connected with this pandemic, as well as those who have been violently opposing the use of HCQ (which is not only cheap but extremely effective).

Before the reign of the Antichrist goes into effect, the Holy Spirit and the Church will be "taken out of the way". They will be removed to Heaven. So this totalitarianism is a *sign* of things to come.


I agree with all of your post except the last line as, I'm not a pre- tribber...sorry!
But, I still love you, lol. :D
 
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Timtofly

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Think old testament!

When Jesus comes again it will be to take the wicked and burn them. Rev is about the old, it was written just prior to 70 AD when the end of the old age pasted away completely. I think I will post that soon.

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
So how is the church the last to leave? Christ left first. We are in Christ, we leave first.

For all history, the first will be last and the last will be first. The nations had the first age. Then Abraham and the Hebrews had the next one. The last one was the church. Therefore, the church will leave, then those alive from Abraham, the sheep will leave. Then there will be a remnant of wheat. They leave. Then the tares are burned up. But in leaving the sheep and the wheat are not the church. They die, and are the firstfruits in Christ for one last Lord's Day. That Millennium, many deny. They really do not want to go with the church or stay another 1000 years. Only God knows what they want.

God says there is going to be a rapture, and there is going to be one last thousand years. The church will be in Paradise, the temple of God. The resurrected remnant will populate the earth for 1000 years. There was a populated earth before Noah and the Flood. There will be one last battle with Satan before the earth is destroyed in fire after the last 1000 years of population like before Noah's Flood. The earth was perfect and got worse before the Flood. It will be near perfect once more, and there will still be disgruntled humans who rebel one last time.

People just do not go around and make things up when Paul taught a rapture. When John said Satan will be bound for a literal 1000 years. That is not figurative. Paul is not figurative when he states the living church will meet Christ in the air. In the last 50 years, people have come out of the sea stating Paul did not mean that and John did not mean that. They have convinced millions of people around the world. What is made up; is denying God's Word because some have become disgruntled, and claim it must have already happened. We are too advanced. We can never live in Biblical times. That is too old fashioned and backwards thinking. We are the enlightened, and know better than those who take everything biblically literal.
 

n2thelight

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Yes Job and David and Lazarus, and every person that has ever lived will be there when the prophecy of 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 takes place.
That is because it will happen AFTER the Millennium, proved by how it is only then that Death will be no more. Revelation 21:4

The false teaching of a resurrection, of anyone other than the Trib martyrs, Rev 20:4, before the Great White Throne Judgment, is a lie and will never happen.
Even during the Millennium, as Isaiah 65:20 tell us; there will still be death. Immortality is only given to those whose names are found in the Book of Life, that is opened at the GWT, not before!

Do a study on resurrection .The change happens at death or at the return of Christ ,whichever happens first.We are DIRT,and dust we shall return,never EVER needing it again
 

Keraz

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Do a study on resurrection .The change happens at death or at the return of Christ ,whichever happens first.We are DIRT,and dust we shall return,never EVER needing it again
Why don't you do what your bottom line says?
"All that we have learned from our youth up must be tested and proved by the Word of God. Where we find it is true we must learn it over again, from God. And where it will not stand the test of His Word we must be not only content, but thankful to give it up; and receive Divine revelation in the place of man's imagination."

NOWHERE does the Bible say the dead are changed at anytime before the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium.
Your beliefs are contrary to the Bible.
The ONLY resurrection will be the martyrs killed during the 42 month GT. Jesus will raise them back into mortal bodies, Revelation 20:4. As He did with Lazarus and there were a few others. NEVER yet made immortal. Even Moses and Elijah await their immortal bodily resurrection. Revelation 20:11-15
 
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n2thelight

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Guess we need to do the order of the seals trumps and vials
Why don't you do what your bottom line says?
"All that we have learned from our youth up must be tested and proved by the Word of God. Where we find it is true we must learn it over again, from God. And where it will not stand the test of His Word we must be not only content, but thankful to give it up; and receive Divine revelation in the place of man's imagination."

NOWHERE does the Bible say the dead are changed at anytime before the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium.
Your beliefs are contrary to the Bible.
The ONLY resurrection will be the martyrs killed during the 42 month GT. Jesus will raise them back into mortal bodies, Revelation 20:4. As He did with Lazarus and there were a few others. NEVER yet made immortal. Even Moses and Elijah await their immortal bodily resurrection. Revelation 20:11-15

We Rise Soon after Death
Jesus tells of a poor man Lazarus and his rich neighbor who both died. The rich man ended up in hell, while Lazarus went up to heaven. (Luke 16: 22-24) Both of them came into the next life immediately after death. There was no hint here of a long wait to come back into their bodies, for the rich man's brothers were still alive on earth.

When Jesus was on the cross He promised one of the thieves, "Today you will be with Me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). Jesus did not say, "Just wait twenty centuries or more, and I will fix up your body again."

Since we rise immediately after death, people who have died are in the spiritual world, and they can be seen by those whose spiritual sight is open. For example, when Peter, James and John had their eyes opened to see Jesus in His glory, they also saw Moses and Elijah, who were clearly not in their graves. When Saul went to the witch of En Dor, he spoke with the spirit of Samuel who appeared as an old man (1 Samuel 28: 3-19), and Lazarus found himself in the bosom of Abraham in heaven (Luke 16:22-24). In fact, when Jesus said to the Sadducees that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the God of the living, not the dead, the clear implication is that Abramam, Isaac and Jacob had already risen from death into life (Matthew 22:31-32; Mark 12:26-27; Luke 20:37-38). He is "the God of the Living," not "the God of the dead who will centuries later come back to life."

There Is a Spiritual Body
The Bible teaches that we rise with a different body than the one that is placed in the grave. "There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15: 44). The natural body is what is "sown" in the grave, and the spiritual body is what is raised up (1 Corinthians 15: 37, 42-44). People on earth have an earthly body, while people in heaven have a spiritual, heavenly body (1 Corinthians 15: 46-49). The fact that people in the spiritual world have a spiritual body is evident from the appearance of angels mentioned above. For example, Saul recognized Samuel after his death because he had a body similar to the body he had on earth. Clearly it was Samuel's spiritual body, since his physical body was still in grave, and it was his spirit (1 Samuel 28:13) that had risen and was conversing with Saul.

The fact that there is a spiritual body is also clear from the story of Lazarus and the rich man. After death Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham; the rich man lifted his eyes, and asked that Lazarus might dip his finger in water to cool his tongue (Luke 16: 22-24).

The body we have in the spiritual world is not the body that we put into the grave. The Bible says that our physical body is corruptible and mortal, which means that it does not last, but rots and dies. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Corinthians 15: 50). "We brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out" (1 Timothy 6:7). When we go to our eternal home "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:5, 7; compare Genesis 3:19). So our earthly body cannot go to heaven, but when we put off our physical body, our corruptible and mortal life is changed into an incorruptible and immortal life (1 Corinthians 15: 53-54). Evidently when Paul said this, some people were wondering if everyone would sleep a long time in the grave before the resurrection, for Paul reassures people that we will not all sleep, and that it will not take ages but will happen immediately, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, that is, when we die.
 
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Behold

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My advice to you, is to be ready for dramatic things; a huge world changer that will set the scene for all the prophesies about the time before Jesus Returns; to take place.
We will all be here on earth, where the Lord Promises wonderful Blessings to His people. Isaiah 65:20-23, Psalms 37:29
Stand strong in your faith, prove your trust in the Lord and endure until the end, when all who do this will be amply rewarded. Matthew 24:13, Matthew 16:27

Yes, all that is obvious.

But what i asked you is , do you know what the final sign is, that is happening right now?
I know what it is..
Does anyone else?
I didnt read all 5 pages of this Thread, so maybe someone has already stated it, tho i doubt it.
 

BOWnQUIVER

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The Bible is speaking about TWO DIFFERENT TRUMPETS sounded for TWO DIFFERENT REASONS.

So your saying there are 2 LAST trumpets. 1 LAST trumpet before the trib and 1 LAST trumpet after the trib period. Well that does not suprise me. There are "many" who believe that friday sundown till sunday morning equals 3 days AND 3 nights. And ofcourse it does not