Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders
- Thread starter Trekson
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Revelation 1-22 consists of a number of figurative prophetic parallels (most believe seven in total) revealing the overall battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. They relate, like every other New Testament book, to the period running between the first and Second Advents. John basically goes behind the scenes into the spiritual realm and articulates in symbolic form the enormity of the great conflict between light and darkness. In the book of Revelation, we get a perceptive insight into the invisible realm.
Parallels are simply different camera views of the same corresponding intra-Advent period which look at different aspects of the great battle between darkness and light. Basically, it is telling the same story from different angles.
Looking at Revelation 10:5-7, there is clearly a major dilemma for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also makes reference to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious Second coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.
How could Revelation be chronological when we do not read of the birth of Christ until Revelation 12? The millennium does not follow Revelation 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.
The ESV Study Bible states: “Revelation unveils the unseen spiritual war in which the church is engaged: the cosmic conflict between God and his Christ on the one hand, and Satan and his evil allies (both demonic and human) on the other. In this conflict, Jesus the Lamb has already won the decisive victory through his sacrificial death, but his church continues to be assaulted by the dragon, in its death-throes, through persecution, false teaching, and the allure of material affluence and cultural approval. By revealing the spiritual realities lying behind the church’s trials and temptations during the time between Christ’s first and second comings, and by dramatically affirming the certainty of Christ’s triumph in the new heaven and earth, the visions granted to John both warn the church and fortify it to endure suffering and to stay pure from the defiling enticements of the present world order.”
Revelation is designed to enlighten God’s people, stir their hearts and increase their faith. Significantly, the conclusion of each parallel terminates with a record of the glorious Second Advent, which includes the rescue of His saint and the final destruction of the wicked.
Those who have eyes to see will get the general thrust of the book! That does not mean we will grasp every minute detail. But we should get the overall message of the apocalypse.
Cycle 1
Seven Churches (Ch 2-3)
Cycle 2
Seven Seals (Ch 6-8:1)
Cycle 3
Seven Trumpets (Ch 8-11)
Cycle 4
The Church and its onslaught from the devil and the beast’s and ultimate victory in heaven.
Cycle 5
Seven Vials (Ch 15-16)
Cycle 6
Babylon (Ch 17-19)
Cycle 7
The spiritual binding of Satan from the cross. The advance of the Gospel to the nations. The victorious reign of the saints in heaven. The ushering in of the New Heaven and the New Earth (Ch 20-22:1-5).
The rapture occurs when Jesus descends from heaven, as depicted in Revelation 14:14-16. I see only one reaping. It occurs after the witnesses have died. The dead are reaped first (which includes the two witnesses), after that the living.
"Perhaps" means this is apocalyptic literature, hence the interpretation is not 100% sure. Therefore, I think it is improper to be dogmatic, rather I respect the alternate views of my Christian brothers and sisters, whether or not I agree.
Last edited:
Do you even read what other people are writing? Read back on my posts and then come back to me. The last trump ushers in the catching away not the other way around as you claim. Until you acknowledge that fact we are going nowhere.
You have the order all wrong.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell
upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
This cannot be the rapture. The 7th trumpet sounds after this is completed (Rev 11:15).
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
After the 2 witnesses are caught up the trumpet sounds.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Your thesis contradicts what the context reveals and what the rest of Scripture teaches. Revelation 11:15-19 relates to the one and only climatic return of Christ at the end, not Revelation 11:11-12.
Christ said Himself, in Matthew 24:29-31, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
This is the end! Jesus clearly comes “after the tribulation.”
1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”
This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” His appearing sees “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”
1 Corinthians 15:22-24, 51-53 describes a ‘last trump’ saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power ... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”
There is the only one last trumpet. It sounds at Christ’s climactic singular return. The word eschatos, from where we get our word English eschatology, and simply means end, last, farthest or final.
The coming of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” The glorification of the kingdom of God sees the simultaneous destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.
Three series of judgments, poetically named as:
o. Trumpets = listen up, announcement!
o. Scrolls = list of accusations against a people spurning God.
o. Bowls = hot oil poured out, ancient method of torture.
o. Trumpets = listen up, announcement!
o. Scrolls = list of accusations against a people spurning God.
o. Bowls = hot oil poured out, ancient method of torture.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Your claim is NOT Biblical. Here is why...
Jesus speaking:
Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."
KJV
That means the 7th Vial is timed WITH the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.
1 Thess 5:2
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
KJV
2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV
That "day of the Lord" is the last day... of this present world, and that is when Jesus said He comes "as a thief", which includes how both Apostles Paul and Peter used that "as a thief" metaphor.
WPM noted:
<chronological>
This has the etymology:
χρονος = time
λογος = reckoning
i.e. "reckoning according to time."
I would say the beginnings of the judgments are chronological, and their effects overlap.
It's not good. This is punishment of people, angels, cherubim for their flagrant disobedience. God will not be patient forever.
I suspect these events will be confined to the Middle East.
<chronological>
This has the etymology:
χρονος = time
λογος = reckoning
i.e. "reckoning according to time."
I would say the beginnings of the judgments are chronological, and their effects overlap.
It's not good. This is punishment of people, angels, cherubim for their flagrant disobedience. God will not be patient forever.
I suspect these events will be confined to the Middle East.
Not true. That is what you have been wrongly taught. You cannot even address the basic rebuttals here. This is a common Pretrib trait, along with nasty ad hominem.
WPM noted: "last trump"
"Last trumpet" (last of seven, last before the rapture) is noted in 1Corinthuans 15:51-52).
The judgments are described as elements of a coming war:
Scroll = documented sins of our sinful race (including me).
Trumpet = signal to attack (no radios back then).
Bowl = punishment, devastation, compared to hot-oil torture.
You fight an army of angels, you are going to loose; better to seek sanctuary.
Ancient cities had walls and also a tower in the middle. If the enemy broke through the walls, the citizens retreated to the tower. Similarly:
"The name of the Lord is a strong tower;
the righteous runs to it, and is safe." (Proverbs 18:10)
"Last trump" (seventh trump, "last" of seven) is depicted in Revelation 11:15.
"Last trumpet" (last of seven, last before the rapture) is noted in 1Corinthuans 15:51-52).
The judgments are described as elements of a coming war:
Scroll = documented sins of our sinful race (including me).
Trumpet = signal to attack (no radios back then).
Bowl = punishment, devastation, compared to hot-oil torture.
You fight an army of angels, you are going to loose; better to seek sanctuary.
Ancient cities had walls and also a tower in the middle. If the enemy broke through the walls, the citizens retreated to the tower. Similarly:
"The name of the Lord is a strong tower;
the righteous runs to it, and is safe." (Proverbs 18:10)
"Last trump" (seventh trump, "last" of seven) is depicted in Revelation 11:15.
No. This is all your personal opinion or what you have been taught. It is not in the text. Why can you not let the text speak for itself? Because it exposes pre-trib. It is the end!
Revelation 10:1-11 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”
The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious second coming. We will the symbolism shortly.
Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”
The third parallel in Revelation 11:15 makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”
The next verse, verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”
One cannot help but note the finality attached to the sounding of the seventh trumpet. This is particularly striking when you then compare this to the trumpet passages that connect to the second coming of the Lord. The link is unquestionable.
Whichever way you look at it, there is an unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet. This corresponds with the conclusiveness associated with second coming passages elsewhere in Scripture. Let us look at some of the all-consummating detail.
Christ said Himself, in Matthew 24:29-31, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
This is the end! Jesus clearly comes “after the tribulation.”
1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”
This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” His appearing sees “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”
1 Corinthians 15:22-24, 51-53 describes a ‘last trump’ saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power ... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”
There is the only one last trumpet. It sounds at Christ’s climactic singular return. The word eschatos, from where we get our word English eschatology, and simply means end, last, farthest or final.
The coming of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” The glorification of the kingdom of God sees the simultaneous destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.
IMO:
The rapture of the church includes all believers, living and dead.
In fact the dead are raised first (1Thessalonians 14:16-17):
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven
with a cry of comnand, with the archangel's call,
and with the sound of the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first;
then we who are alive who are left,
shall be caught up together with them
In the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air;
and so we shall always be with the Lord.
(1Thessalonians 4:16-17)
That is mighty gooid news.
WPM noted:
<The Rapture of the two witnesses is not the rapture of the Church>
o. "Church" is the body of Christian believers.
o. The two witnesses are Christians believers
o. Hence two witnesses are part of the Church..
o. They come from heaven.
o. They prepare the way for the Messiah.
o. They are voluntarily martyred
o. They rise at the midpoint of the seven years (Rev 11:2).
o. The rapture occurs at the midpoint of the seven years.
o. Therefore they are part of the rapture.
o. They knew they were going to die, and they never hesitated.
The rapture of the church includes all believers, living and dead.
In fact the dead are raised first (1Thessalonians 14:16-17):
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven
with a cry of comnand, with the archangel's call,
and with the sound of the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first;
then we who are alive who are left,
shall be caught up together with them
In the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air;
and so we shall always be with the Lord.
(1Thessalonians 4:16-17)
That is mighty gooid news.
WPM noted:
<The Rapture of the two witnesses is not the rapture of the Church>
o. "Church" is the body of Christian believers.
o. The two witnesses are Christians believers
o. Hence two witnesses are part of the Church..
o. They come from heaven.
o. They prepare the way for the Messiah.
o. They are voluntarily martyred
o. They rise at the midpoint of the seven years (Rev 11:2).
o. The rapture occurs at the midpoint of the seven years.
o. Therefore they are part of the rapture.
o. They knew they were going to die, and they never hesitated.
Last edited:
- Where does it say the tribulation is seven years?
- So, Enoch and Elijah are Christians belonging to the Church?
WPM quired:
<So Enoch and Elisha are Christians>
They deserve that title far more than I do, they gave their lives.
<What do to you mean "perphaps">
I mean the text does not directly specify.
<where is battlefield Middle East specified>
Jerusalem in the Middle East is God's chosen city (Jeremiah 3:17).
It is an ancient city, dating back perhaps 1500 years.
The coming battlefield is specified in Revelation 16:16:
Greek Aρμαγεδων, English Armageddon.
This has the etymology "mountain of Megeddo." referring to a large, flat plain in Jerusalem that lies at the foot of Tel Megiddo. A tel is a small hill.
Been there, seen that, great place to have a battle. Battles have indeed been fought there in the past.
Last edited:
The old covenant is gone forever. We are now in the new. It is time to leave it. God is no respecter of persons today. All races are on the same level. So, am i getting you right, Enoch and Elisha are nor literal characters? They symbolically represent the whole Church?
Similar threads
