Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders

[Scott Downey]

8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, [b]O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been [c]sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Verse 15, the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

Hebrews 10

For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once [a]purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

Christ’s Death Fulfills God’s Will​

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”
8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, [b]O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been [c]sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Christ’s Death Perfects the Sanctified​

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being [d]sanctified.

15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,

16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is [e]remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

 

[Scott Downey]

Shocking to think that any believing Christian would think God is reviving His old covenant with Israel

 

[William Barton]

If Pretrib was in Daniel 9 you would have presented it before now. The fact is: it is not! The burden of proof is with you! You presented Daniel 9 as a proof text, when it is in fact nothing of the sort. It is not there, or in any of the texts that you referenced. That is why you cannot answer my questions. I do not need to prove that something doesn't exist. It is plainly not in the text! That is enough! It is you that is inserting Pretrib where it does not exist!

This is a classic example of manipulating Scripture to fit your doctrine. Clearly, both the method and the doctrine are wrong, thus the conclusion is wrong. William E Cox says in his book Biblical Studies in Final Things: “the futurist arbitrarily places a gap between the sixty-nine and seventieth weeks of Daniels’ prophecy. He does this without one verse of Scripture or one iota of historical data to back up his argument.”

History shows that the 490 years were linear, congruent and sequential. Those of us that take 490 years to mean exactly that do not have to prove that it is harmonious; we just have to accept what it states. We take it literally (1) because it happened literally, (2) there is no command to decapitate it and project it into the unknown. Seven multiplied by seventy comes to 490 cohesive unitary years, not 2,500 broken up years and counting. The clincher is: there is no gap mentioned in the prophecy so there is no need or warrant to insert one in there.

Daniel 9:24 says שבעים שבעים.
שבעים = sevens
שבעים = sevens x10.
That is 77 sevens

Similarly English 77 = seven + seven x10

 

[William Barton]

Your theology doesn't add up. Christ was crucified in the middle of the last week. It is fulfilled. You guys attribute to antichrist what pertains to Christ. Very troubling! Daniel 9 makes no mention of the Church, a rapture, a 7-year tribulation, or a third coming. You were unable to show that, because it doesn't exist. You have nothing in this passage. You also have nothing in the New Testament. It is a man-made belief foisted on Scripture.

WPM noted:
<Daniel 9 makes no mentions of a church>

Not surprising, since:
1). "Church" is an English word, and the Book of Daniel is written in Hebrew
2) There was no church in Daniel's day.

Inclusion of gentiles into the faith/church occurred in Acts chapter 2.

 

[William Barton]

Daniel 9:24 says שבעים שבעים.
שבעים = sevens
שבעים = sevens x10.
That is 77 sevens

Similarly English 77 = seven + seven x10

BTW the pre-tribulation rapture is depicted in Revelation 14:14-16 and
1Thessalonians 4:16.

It's in the Book.

 

[covenantee]

IMO:
o. The old covenant was established by God (Genesis 6:18).
o. At a later time a new covenant was offered (Jeremiah 31:31).

A covenant by definition cannot be broken by either party, but it CAN be recinded by *mutual* conscient.

Jesus suffered a horrible, painful, disgraceful death and God the Father accepted that as payment for anyone/everyone who will run to the tower:

"Out of the anguish of his soul [God the Father] will see and be satisfied..."
(Isaiah 53:11).

"The name of the Lord is a strong tower, the righteous run to it and are safe."(Proverbs 18:10)

BTW
Daniel 9:27 indicates a coming ruler, who is on good terms with the Romans. He brokers a covenant between the Romans and the Jews (necessary because the Jews decline to acknowledge the Roman gods), so that both parties are saisfied.

The Jews are elated, particularly since he then oversees reconstruction of the Jewish temple. Their elation turns to horror when he takes his seat in the newly-built temple, proclaiming himself to be God (2Thessalonians 2:4).

Is the Covenant Confirmer of Daniel 9:27
Christ?
or
antichrist?

 

[WPM]

WPM noted:
<you invent a definition of covenant>

Covenant:
"A mutual agreement between two or more persons"
(Oxford English Dictionary)

<Did God get Adam's agreement>
Adam was given a place to live, with conditions, and he accepted it. When he knowingly broke the rules he was banished from the garden.

<Did the covenant of the rainbow involve man agreeing to it.>
It's the same situation. We did not create this world, we are *invited guests;* we do not make the rules.

<Why was Abraham put to sleep>
God wanted to get his undisturbed attention.

<Christ fulfilled the old ceremonial law>
He did, but that is no help to us. This is what helps us:
"see the suffering of his soul and be satisfied" (Isaiah 53:11)

We were all on the path to hell. Jesus paid our debt for us. He was horribly beaten and then cruified.

God's covenants are made independent of man's response. You do not get that. This demolishes your whole thesis.

 

[WPM]

WPM noted:
<Daniel 9 makes no mentions of a church>

Not surprising, since:
1). "Church" is an English word, and the Book of Daniel is written in Hebrew
2) There was no church in Daniel's day.

Inclusion of gentiles into the faith/church occurred in Acts chapter 2.

The word ecclesia is found throughout the Greek Old Testament. It was from that book that Jesus and the apostles preached.

 

[WPM]

BTW the pre-tribulation rapture is depicted in Revelation 14:14-16 and
1Thessalonians 4:16.

It's in the Book.

Maybe you would quote these passages and highlight where the evidence is instead of doing a Jack Van Imp - presenting Bible references that have absolutely nothing to do with what he is claiming.

 

[WPM]

Daniel 9:24 says שבעים שבעים.
שבעים = sevens
שבעים = sevens x10.
That is 77 sevens

Similarly English 77 = seven + seven x10

Lol. What you just wrote does not support pre-trib in any way. This is not a rebuttal. It is an avoidance. This is reinforcing the fact that your doctrine is unbiblical.

 

[WPM]

BTW the pre-tribulation rapture is depicted in Revelation 14:14-16 and
1Thessalonians 4:16.

It's in the Book.

You are a master at avoidance.

The New Testament Scripture makes abundantly clear that Christ was the final sacrifice for sin (Romans 6:10, Hebrews 7:27, 9:12, 28, 10:10, 12, 14 and 1 Peter 3:18) and that there are no more offerings for sin (Hebrews 9:26, 10:18, 26 and 1 John 3:5). The reality is, one can search the New Testament pages, but can search Revelation 20 from start to finish, and there is not the slightest allowance for such a religious sham in the presence of Jesus in the age to come. They will never happen, neither for atonement or memorial. This is a Premil invention!

Scripture describes the old covenant sacrificial system as “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11) and “that which is abolished” (2 Corinthians 3:13). It makes clear: “the old testament … vail is done away in Christ" (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms: “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” Hebrews 10:2 confirms they “ceased to be offered?

 

[WPM]

Shocking to think that any believing Christian would think God is reviving His old covenant with Israel

This is total ignorance.

 

[William Barton]

God's covenants are made independent of man's response. You do not get that. This demolishes your whole thesis.

WPM noted:
<This demolishes your whole thesis>
That is your opinion, to which you are surely entitled.

However the Bible says:
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven...meet the Lord in the air."
(1Corinthians 4:17)

Lol. What you just wrote does not support pre-trib in any way. This is not a rebuttal. It is an avoidance. This is reinforcing the fact that your doctrine is unbiblical.

It gives information about the timing.

The rapture is depicted in Revelation 14:14-16.

The subsequent second coming is depicted in Revelation 14:17-20.

 

[William Barton]

o. The command for Jesus to reap is given (Revelation 14:15).
o Jesus reaps (Revelation 14:16).
o. The Bible says the catch up is "at the last trump" (1Thessalonians 4:16).
o. There are seven trumpets (Revelation ).
o. Hence the rapture is at the seventh (last) trumpet.

 

[WPM]

WPM noted:
<This demolishes your whole thesis>
That is your opinion, to which you are surely entitled.

However the Bible says:
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven...meet the Lord in the air."
(1Corinthians 4:17)

It gives information about the timing.

The rapture is depicted in Revelation 14:14-16.

The subsequent second coming is depicted in Revelation 14:17-20.

We all believe that. But where is your 7 yrs or 3 1/2 yr trib after the rapture in 1 Corinthians 4:17, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Revelation 14:14-16? Why can you not answer simple questions? What are you trying to hide? Do you recognize that you have nothing?

 

[WPM]

IMO:
o Jesus descends from heaven to a cloud (Revelation 14:14)
o The command for Jesus to reap is given (Revelation 14:15)
o. Jesus reaps (Revelation 14:16).

o. The Bible says the catch up is "at the last trump" (1Thessalonians 4:16).
o. There are seven trumpets (Revelation ).
o. Hence the rapture is at the seventh (last) trumpet.

I know. But address the detail i highlighted in blue that proves it is the end. Revelation is not chronological. It is full of recaps of the same game. They all end with the climatic return of Jesus Christ.

 

[WPM]

IMO:
The idea that Jesus paid the penalty for everyone is not correct, rather Jesus paid the penalty for those who are chosen by God (Romans 9:19).

Yes, the offer is made to everone, but only those chosen will respond. It could not be otherwise.

I agree.

 

[William Barton]

LOL. Hello! The Rapture of the two witnesses is not the rapture of the Church.

Then I invite you to demonstrate that from the Bible.

 

[William Barton]

Exactly. That is not the rapture of the Church then as you claim.

"Church" is an English rendering of Greek εκκλασια (ekklasia) where:
εκ= from, out
κλασια = a group

I.e. those chosen from a group.

 

[The Light]

BTW the pre-tribulation rapture is depicted in Revelation 14:14-16 and
1Thessalonians 4:16.

It's in the Book.

This is not correct. The rapture of the Church will happen before the great tribulation. Rev 14 is after the great tribulation.

What you are seeing in Rev 14 is the second harvest which occurs at the 6th seal. It is the 12 tribes across the earth that are raptured immediately after the tribulation. Then the seventh seal is opened, and the wrath of God begins.