Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[Dave L]

So the 12 tribes are either believers or they are disbarred and are now gentiles. Ok.... when did believing Israel reject Messiah and how is it, if they are redeemed, do they have to acknowledge that rejection before He will return?

Hosea 5:14-15 For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”

Ephraim was the largest tribe of the north so Hosea and Isaiah would use Ephraim as a collective term for all the northern Kingdom. Likewise, Judah being the largest tribe in the southern kingdom, that kingdom was collectively known as Judah. So in verse 14, we see that the reference is all 12 tribes.

And that being the case, Yeshua says next that He will return to His place until they (all 12 tribes) acknowledge their offense. So He is not going to return and set foot on this planet until they do.

And Yeshua affirmed this in....

Matthew 23:37-39 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

So again, when did the redeemed reject Yeshua, and how could they be considered redeemed while in rejection of Yeshua? And that rejection of Yeshua would have had to happen before He ascended back to the Father, as it is the rejection that caused Him to return to the Father. And we know that the rejection has not ended because Yeshua has not returned.

Wow. To be a part of the body of Messiah, the bride of Messiah, the ekklesia of Messiah, and reject the Messiah before the ekklesia even started at Shavuot following His ascension. Anyone who wants to go down that rabbit trail of Alice in Wonderland really should consider serious professional counseling to untie those knots.

You need to define Israel according to Jesus who is Israel personified. And those who believe in him. To whom all of God's promises are Yes according to Paul. And no to any who reject him.

 

[Dave L]

You accused me of being a false prophet and deceiver -- prove it.

I prove it by your "end time claims" that cannot be found in scripture.

 

[bbyrd009]

You accused me of being a false prophet and deceiver -- prove it.

ha well fwiw I thank God for ppl who disagree, and I'd maybe have to pick you for VP too ok. Even if you are a determinist

 

[Copperhead]

Point is ,they didn't!!And yes I understand we all don't want to ,but if we are all gone ,who gonna help them?

So what is your overall point? Even the story of the rich man and Lazarus, when the rich man was suffering in hades and wanted Abraham to send Lazarus to his household to warn them, Abraham told him that they had Moses and the Prophets.

Well, same thing. If we are all out of here, those that remain will have Moses, the Prophets, the Gospels, and the Epistles. If that doesn't convince them along with knowing the righteous up to that point were taken out, then nothing will convince them.

 

[Copperhead]

You need to define Israel according to Jesus who is Israel personified. And those who believe in him. To whom all of God's promises are Yes according to Paul. And no to any who reject him.

No, I only need to define Israel as it was defined from Sinai onward. And in the post I made, I let it define who Israel is and it is quite clear that is has nothing to do with some spiritual semantics. It stated clearly who Israel is... the both Judah and Ephraim.. Judah and Israel... all the tribes physically. You are using allegorical interpretation methods and putting a new definition on who Israel is. The method has no foundation in objective truth. Everything become subjective to the interpreter. Dangerous.

 

[Dave L]

No, I only need to define Israel as it was defined from Sinai onward. And in the post I made, I let it define who Israel is and it is quite clear that is has nothing to do with some spiritual semantics. It stated clearly who Israel is... the both Judah and Ephraim.. Judah and Israel... all the tribes physically. You are using allegorical interpretation methods and putting a new definition on who Israel is. The method has no foundation in objective truth. Everything become subjective to the interpreter. Dangerous.

You are missing the entire NT teaching that Jesus is Israel along with those who believe in him. The broken off unbelievers from Israel are gentiles unless they accept Christ individually. At that point God grafts them back into Israel.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

What do you all rapturist think would had happened if the prophets and the diciples wanted to be raptured before they had to do what they were meant to do?

They died for that,and for you to say you want to escape IMO it's a slap in their face!!!

It isn't what we want that matters, but what God wants. In any case, you can't compare that time with the times that will pertain to the Tribulation. The Great Tribulation will be a time of utter spiritual darkness. I expect that all the saints who went before us will be glad to see the rescue and resurrection of those remaining alive at that time--as well as receiving their own resurrection bodies.

 

[Copperhead]

You are missing the entire NT teaching that Jesus is Israel along with those who believe in him. The broken off unbelievers from Israel are gentiles unless they accept Christ individually. At that point God grafts them back into Israel.

Nah. Yeshua defined Israel the same way as the prophets. We may be grafted in, but that doesn't negate the physical Hebrews. We only feed on the root.... the faith of the Patriarchs. The physical promises still belong to physical Israel and will be realized in full one day.

Romans 9:3-4 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;

No past tense. Present tense.

Romans 11:28-29 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Not according to the Bible. It says they acknowledge and accept Christ when they see him . at the second coming. Not before.

From what passage are you speaking? I'm not arguing with you but my reading of Zechariah chapters 12, 13 and 14 leads me to believe that they acknowledge their grievous sin of rejecting their Messiah before they see Him coming with His "holy ones" (Zechariah 14:5). In any case, it will happen as the Lord directs.

 

[Dave L]

Nah. Yeshua defined Israel the same way as the prophets. We may be grafted in, but that doesn't negate the physical Hebrews. We only feed on the root.... the faith of the Patriarchs. The physical promises still belong to physical Israel and will be realized in full one day.

Romans 9:3-4 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;

No past tense. Present tense.

Romans 11:28-29 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Paul spoke to the last generation of the circumcision before Christ abolished it. After they died off, all became gentiles who claimed the name Israel without divine authorization.

 

[Copperhead]

Paul spoke to the last generation of the circumcision before Christ abolished it. After they died off, all became gentiles who claimed the name Israel without divine authorization.

That is reading more into any text than was is there. One cannot make any case that those of Israel who did not claim Yeshua are now gentiles. You are adding to the scripture your own take on things. The best that anyone can state is that those who are in rejection are branches broken out of the tree, but they do not lose the fact that they are still Israelite branches. Even Paul yearned for his brethren after the flesh, Israelites like him, that they would know and accept Yeshua. But at the same time, he never said they were no longer Israelites. Only you have imposed that on the text.

And it requires an Israel that is currently in unbelief to fulfill many passages. Ezekiel says they will be brought back into the land, initially in unbelief. That would be what we see today. And it will be an unbelieving Hebrew people that then turn and fulfill Hosea 5:15 and Matthew 23:39. And to get them to turn is the primary reason for the 70th week of Daniel, the false Messiah, 2/3 of them getting wiped out, etc. To drive them to the wall to where they realize their big mistake of rejecting Yeshua and call on Him.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

All will make it to the millennium except for those ,ie satans angels who were already sentenced to die(the 2nd death)satans angels will die the 2nd Christ feet touch the earth.

At the start of the Lords Day,ie,the millennium those whom don't have any worries about the 2nd death will teach those w--hom do.Those who hadn't overcome are considered dead meaning even though they are now in their spiritual bodies they still stand a chance to die the 2nd death ,which is the death of the soul

Those people who were not overcomers before the return of Christ will have to prove themselves at the end of that Day,when satan is released for a short season.

You and I apparently have a different understanding of the Millennial Kingdom--which I believe, based on Scripture, will be a mortal kingdom comprised of the survivors from the Tribulation and their descendants.

 

[Willie T]

You and I apparently have a different understanding of the Millennial Kingdom--which I believe, based on Scripture, will be a mortal kingdom comprised of the survivors from the Tribulation and their descendants.

The "descendants of the survivors of tribulation" are all those who have lived from the moment Jesus told them that "they would suffer tribulation" for being Christians. And, all Christians have.

 

[Copperhead]

The "descendants of the survivors of tribulation" are all those who have lived from the moment Jesus told them that "they would suffer tribulation" for being Christians. And, all Christians have.

No, Matthew 25 shows that they are the remaining mortal Hebrews and those of the nations that come thru the tribulation and meet the criteria for entrance into the millennial kingdom. It is because they are mortal and still carry their sin nature that Yeshua and his bride will be ruling with a rod of iron, having to put the heavy hand down on those who get out of line. The bride doesn't go thru the tribulation period which has a specific purpose to get Israel to turn to Yeshua. By its very nature, the bride is made up of those who already have turned to Yeshua. To have the bride go thru that period is some sort of purgatory idea that suggests that Yeshua's atonement just isn't good enough to get the job of justification done. That is blasphemy.

Adam and Eve were told to rule over the earth. They failed. The second Adam (Yeshua) and his bride (the redeemed) will rule over the restored earth millennial kingdom. YHVH will restore things to what they were supposed to be and the second Adam and his Bride will not fail like the first did.

But, there will be sin in the kingdom. There will be death in the kingdom. There will still be child bearing in the kingdom. There will be those of the nations that will not come to Jerusalem for the feast of tabernacles and will be punished. Satan will be locked up during that time, but his cronies are still out causing mischief as shown in the kingdom parables of Matthew 13. The kingdom will grow worse to the point when Satan is released, he is able to foment a worldwide rebellion of the nations to throw off the rule of Yeshua. Revelation 20 / Psalms 2.

 

[tzcho2]

I prove it by your "end time claims" that cannot be found in scripture.[/QUOTE

Believing in the rapture & trib doesn't define me as a "false prophet and deceiver" .
Your attempts at character assassination just exposes your heart & your motives on Christian forums, Dave L.
It is Falsely accusation & slander not only me , but ALL those who believe in the Rapture & the Tribulation.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

No, Matthew 25 shows that they are the remaining mortal Hebrews and those of the nations that come thru the tribulation and meet the criteria for entrance into the millennial kingdom. It is because they are mortal and still carry their sin nature that Yeshua and his bride will be ruling with a rod of iron, having to put the heavy hand down on those who get out of line. The bride doesn't go thru the tribulation period which has a specific purpose to get Israel to turn to Yeshua. By its very nature, the bride is made up of those who already have turned to Yeshua. To have the bride go thru that period is some sort of purgatory idea that suggests that Yeshua's atonement just isn't good enough to get the job of justification done. That is blasphemy.

Adam and Eve were told to rule over the earth. They failed. The second Adam (Yeshua) and his bride (the redeemed) will rule over the restored earth millennial kingdom. YHVH will restore things to what they were supposed to be and the second Adam and his Bride will not fail like the first did.

But, there will be sin in the kingdom. There will be death in the kingdom. There will still be child bearing in the kingdom. There will be those of the nations that will not come to Jerusalem for the feast of tabernacles and will be punished. Satan will be locked up during that time, but his cronies are still out causing mischief as shown in the kingdom parables of Matthew 13. The kingdom will grow worse to the point when Satan is released, he is able to foment a worldwide rebellion of the nations to throw off the rule of Yeshua. Revelation 20 / Psalms 2.

Exactly what my reading of Scripture tells me.

 

[Dave L]

There is no direct scriptural support for a 7 year tribulation or pre-trib rapture. If you teach this doctrine it makes you a false prophet and a deceiver. The only rapture happens on the last day after the resurrection according to Paul and Jesus. It will be as in the days of Noah at that time, marrying and giving in marriage just as today.

 

[Dave L]

That is reading more into any text than was is there. One cannot make any case that those of Israel who did not claim Yeshua are now gentiles. You are adding to the scripture your own take on things. The best that anyone can state is that those who are in rejection are branches broken out of the tree, but they do not lose the fact that they are still Israelite branches. Even Paul yearned for his brethren after the flesh, Israelites like him, that they would know and accept Yeshua. But at the same time, he never said they were no longer Israelites. Only you have imposed that on the text.

And it requires an Israel that is currently in unbelief to fulfill many passages. Ezekiel says they will be brought back into the land, initially in unbelief. That would be what we see today. And it will be an unbelieving Hebrew people that then turn and fulfill Hosea 5:15 and Matthew 23:39. And to get them to turn is the primary reason for the 70th week of Daniel, the false Messiah, 2/3 of them getting wiped out, etc. To drive them to the wall to where they realize their big mistake of rejecting Yeshua and call on Him.

If you understand the role circumcision played in Jewish history, you would agree with me and stop chasing parked cars.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

The "descendants of the survivors of tribulation" are all those who have lived from the moment Jesus told them that "they would suffer tribulation" for being Christians. And, all Christians have.

The tribulation that Christians suffer from Satan and his minions, is NOT the same as the Tribulation which is a time of God's wrath and the wrath of the Lamb being poured out on those who belong to the world.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

The kingdom will grow worse to the point when Satan is released, he is able to foment a worldwide rebellion of the nations to throw off the rule of Yeshua. Revelation 20 / Psalms 2.

And then, the Lord will send fire out of heaven, followed by the Final Judgment when Satan, death and hell are tossed into the Lake of Fire where the Antichrist, False Prophet and all of those taking the Mark of the Beast have been residing already for 1000 years. Then the New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven "like a Bride" and Eternity will begin for all those belonging to God the Father and the Lamb.