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Rapture, Will There Be One?

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Christina, Apr 23, 2007.

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  1. Sean A.

    Sean A. New Member

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    The only reference to the "sealed" in Revelation is the 144,000 and all of these are from the tribes of Israel. These are those that are sealed on their foreheads. The you use states the same thing. The Church and the Tribes have always been separate so why would we lump them together now? Rev. 7:3-83 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.In no way does this imply the Church. Now look at the verses right after the sealing of the tribes.Rev. 7:9, 13-149 After these things I looked, and behold, ha great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”14 And I said to him, 2“Sir, you know.”So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.So this multitude comes out and is before the throne and the Lamb (this is before the 7th seal) which is in Heaven because the voice tells John to come up here and then John starts to describe the throne room (Rev. chapter 4). It looks like it's getting earlier and not later.
     
  2. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    II Timothy 2:19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. Even following the logic that you bring to the table, there is already a huge hole in what you're proposing. The sealed exist at least up to the 5th seal where I quoted the verse. From what we have said about the context, this carries over to the 6th. Following your logic, even the 144,000 that is supposedly still there is not really there because of reading 9:20 in that way. They obviously didn't just vanish! So where are they? The 144,000 applies to many even in America today. Do you not know your history? Where did the Caucasian race come from? Across the Caucus mountains for which they are named! Follow the dispersion of the 10 "lost" tribes of Israel. They're not lost, they're scattered abroad!
     
  3. Sean A.

    Sean A. New Member

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    So what tribe are you from? I'm not from any of these tribes so I guess I'm out of luck.All I was saying was the only people that were still alive had to repent that's what the verse says. Yes the 144,000 from the tribes are there as well but they are sealed (which means they were good enough to be sealed in the 1st place) from the things happening in Revelation so it's like their not there if that makes any sense. If the Church is still here then they have to be on one side of the fence or the other. They are either with those that need to repent or they are with the 144,000. The Church is not mentioned after chapter 4 with the exception of Jesus' concluding remarks at the end of the book.
     
  4. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    The church is not mentioned after the conclusion of Revelation 3, that is correct. However, we should not ignore the context in which they are mentioned. The church is never referred to as one big colossal entity. The word is only used to refer to the seven churches of which only two are found to okay in the sight of our Lord. These 7 churches are a lesson to us all. The churches are not the universal church, the body of Christ. These churches are seven very distinct churches and five of them don't have it right. These five teach one very dangerous thing. For example, the first church named, that of Ephesus, has "left thy first love" (Revelation 2:4) What is our first love? It's Christ, clearly. The second church is told that the one that overcomes wins, not the one that's raptured away. The message remains the same throughout... These five churches - the majority, have gone whoring (to use a Biblical term) from Christ and his Word, after the false Christ, the antiChrist (Gr. literally means instead of). The majority of churches teach the rapture doctrine; that we'll all fly away. Ezekiel 13:20Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am agains your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly. God never says that you're going to fly away.
     
  5. Bamp;#39;midbar

    Bamp;#39;midbar New Member

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    (SwampFox;10532)
    The majority of churches teach the rapture doctrine; that we'll all fly away.
    Perhaps, if we count by physical buildings, perhaps. Fortunately, a number of major groups do not teach it, so most Christians perhaps still aren't in groups that are teaching it. I hope, anyway. I suspect also that it is more common in English speaking areas than in, say, Russian or other language groups. Though, maybe in Spanish it is making headway, I don't know.
     
  6. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    I hope and pray that way B'Midbar. CB has heartened me greatly in that respect because I have had a glance at those who do not buy into this great deception. I also share in the belief that some who truly know the Scripture will be awakened when the fake shows up, so if I can just get a rapture believer to look and think then I'll walk away satisfied. There's a lot of so called doctrinal issues that I expect disagreement in, and I know there are some you and I would disagree on, but this is a very, very big one. Belief one way or another in what happened in Eden, the First Earth Age, the dispersion of the 10 "lost" tribes, and so on won't change our salvation. However, in the case of the rapture, being wrong about the rapture means just about everything. It's the difference between the phony and the True Christ!
     
  7. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." so the only one here are those killed and those who refused the mark...not any rapture folks anywhere....how can you say no to what you nver saw?
     
  8. Sean A.

    Sean A. New Member

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    To understand Rev. 20:4 completely you need to go back to Rev. 13:15-17.REV.13:15-1715 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.This verse says that as many that wouldn't worship the image of the beast were killed. These are the ones spoken of in Rev. 20:4. The throne is not on the Earth at this time. It is in Heaven, refer to Rev. chapter 4. There will be people who are saved in the tribulation period but only those who are killed for not worshipping the beast. The blood of Jesus saves all who accept it now but after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in and Israel is restored as God's chosen people (Rom. 11:25-26) which makes the sealing of the 144,000 make more sense. Those elect are protected and everyone else that's left alive on Earth must refuse the beast and shed their own blood to be saved. Those that do this will reign with Christ a 1000 years. This is their reward. Your reward as a Christian now is to be spared from going through God's wrath due to His grace. God's grace will keep you from having to shed your own blood to make it to Heaven.
     
  9. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    This is all speculation based on a Theroy show us one scripture that says you are going to fly out of here. Seems to me you are reading what you want to believe into scripture.
     
  10. Sean A.

    Sean A. New Member

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    Do you believe in the Trinity? If you do show me one verse that uses the word Trinity. All Christians believe in the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost (Holy Trinity) but it is no where in the Bible. Do that mean that these 3 don't exist???
     
  11. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Revelation 13:15 "And he had power [it was given unto him] to give life [breath] unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."Satan while sitting in his temple in Jerusalem is given the power to assign his authority to the new religious beast, the "one world system. He has been given the control of all the people on the earth, and he will require them to worship him as god. Satan [the Antichrist] will require their respect, and he will give protection to them and his system. So both the system, and the Antichrist will demand the respect and worship of all people.This is in reference to the two witnesses that will be killed, for the trouble they caused to Satan, the people of the earth, and Satan's religious system. The moment the political beast is healed, it becomes a religious order, and set of moral codes and controls. It will be a copy of Christ's kingdom that will follow, however, it is a complete deception, and cheap imitation.Revelation 13:16 "And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:"This is the "Mark of the beast" which is confusing to many today. This mark is in your hand, and in your forehead. Can a electronic chip be put in your hand, and forehead change your beliefs? I don't think so. "In your hand" is an idiom that means to do Satan's work. You do the work of Satan [the Antichrist] when you bring others to him, or help in his system. This mark in the hand is speaking in a spiritual sense. "In the forehead" is referring to your mind [brain]. Being deceived by Satan in your mind is when you think he is the true Christ, and in ignorance you worship him. No computer chip will condemn you, for it is your faith that you will be judged by.
     
  12. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    The word trinity is not in the bible...but the Godhead is this, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost, these three are one. (1 John 5:7)Lovest thou in Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour.P.S There is no rapture Sean. Read Ezekiel 13:20.
     
  13. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Thanks Jagster I was just going to make a simular post that trinity is a word of convience we use also each individual aspect of the trinity is in to many verses to mention.
     
  14. Sean A.

    Sean A. New Member

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    And you say I'm trying to make scripture say something that it doesn't! Prove to me to mark in your hand is an idiom which means to do Satan's work. I want scripture not commentary. Everything I have given on this forum I have attached scripture to prove my point. That's all I can do. Ask yourself one question "Do I have to change the Bible to line up with my belief system or change my belief system to line up with the Bible?" If you say yes to the second part and I hope you do then all scripture has to line up with your belief and if it doesn't then either the Bible is wrong or your belief system is wrong. Which is it??
     
  15. Sean A.

    Sean A. New Member

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    Why can't the word rapture be a word of conveinence as well?
     
  16. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (Sean A.;10566)
    Why can't the word rapture be a word of conveinence as well?
    the trinity is a combination term for the three aspects of GodThe Father, the Word (son)and the holy ghost. Im sure you reconize those 3words being used many times in scripture.So what is the word rapture a convience for?
     
  17. Sean A.

    Sean A. New Member

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    1 John 5:77 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.Even though I wasn't asking about the word Godhead I'll comment on it as well. First, the verse you use doesn't have the word Godhead in it! I looked at about 7 different versions and none of them have the word Godhead in this verse. I know you are saying that the Godhead is implied and if I agree with you would you agree with me that the word "caught up" used in Rev. 4:1 and 1 Thes. 4:17 means rapture. Are we not doing the same things?
     
  18. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    And it does indeed inplied to the Godhead, even if it doesn't say it. Since when does God say that we are suppose "fly away" if God says in Ezekiel 13:20 that he hates it when "people wants to fly away?" I think that imply at the Final trumpet. (Not 100% sure)Kriss, care to back that up for me?Lovest thou in Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour.
     
  19. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    First Thess4:17 was a misunderstaning by the church in Thess. and Paul quickly wrote a second letter 2Thess saying they had misunderstood what he had said. So a mistake is not prooof of rapture. Rev 4:1 is being addressed to John not the church
     
  20. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Now let me ask you what is the mark(sign) of Christ? Is it not believe in Christ? What mark (sign) do you think the anti christ is going to want? Is it not believe that he is Christ? With that thought what does scripture say about Gods sign(mark)Exodus 13:9This observance will be for you like a sign on your hand and a reminder on your forehead that the law of the LORD is to be on your lips. For the LORD brought you out of Egypt with his mighty handExodus 13:16And it will be like a sign on your hand and a symbol on your forehead that the LORD brought us out of Egypt with his mighty hand."Deuteronomy 11:18Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheadsEzekiel 3:9I will make your forehead like the hardest stone, harder than flint. Do not be afraid of them or terrified by them, though they are a rebellious house."
     
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