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Rapture, Will There Be One?

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Christina, Apr 23, 2007.

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  1. Bamp;#39;midbar

    Bamp;#39;midbar New Member

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    (SwampFox;10547)
    CB has heartened me greatly in that respect because I have had a glance at those who do not buy into this great deception.
    Our backgrounds are so different. [​IMG] I grew up (Christian), never having heard of the rapture. Most Christians I know do not hold it. But those novels are making inroads in the weak in faith. We need to get out more education about this. Also, we need more zeal, so that our lack of warmth does not cause our brother to stumble.It seems that you see an association with that specific belief and a vulnerability to the Anti-Christ. That makes it dangerous indeed! But what about the rapture as a specific belief makes it so vulnerable (compared to other incorrect beliefs) to this deception?
     
  2. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    If I understand your Question B the importance is that Christians are going to attacked/challenged like never before both physically and spiritually. Satan is the most beautiful (full pattern ) arch angel ever created he is super natraulhe can make fire come down from heaven, mimic Christ miracles, And he is going to come in peace claiming to be Christ. To be taught rapture you are told don't worry about whats going happen you won't be here. So these Christians are not prepared for the great delusion that will come. The shepherds(preachers) are not preparing them for what we are to know.Even if they don't teach rapture but just fail to teach you how to recognize this Antichrist they fail in there duty. these rapture people don't want to face reality of Gods word. All must choose who they will follow the real Christ or the false one. Sean accuses us of just not listening to him the problem is rapture is not in the bible its a lie of men. The bible makes it very clear in two verses there is no rapture fly away doctrine. There are more but these two make it pretty clear.Its not my believe or Swampfox, and Bets belief its the word of God he wants us to be ready for battle. Not told we are flying away.As Swampfox stated you dont have to agree with the three world ages or the lie in the garden that we teach,these are things that refer to Gods over all plan and are NOT nessary to know. But Rapture is about your very soul and salvation. Thats why it is so important. If only one person learns that antichrist comes first and is saved from following Satan we will be happy. Ezekiel 13:20Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.1 Corinthians 15:52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed
     
  3. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Kriss)
    If I understand your Question B the importance is that Christians are going to attacked/challenged like never before both physically and spiritually.
    That is correct Kriss, it is happening already.(Kriss)
    Satan is the most beautiful (full pattern ) arch angel ever created he is super naturalhe can make fire come down from heaven, mimic Christ miracles, And he is going to come in peace claiming to be Christ.
    Correct that is. Claiming to be God indeed. (Isaiah 14:14) (and other verses)(Kriss)
    To be taught rapture you are told don't worry about whats going happen you won't be here. So these Christians are not prepared for the great delusion that will come. The shepherds(preachers) are not preparing them for what we are to know.Even if they don't teach rapture but just fail to teach you how to recognize this Antichrist they fail in there duty. these rapture people don't want to face reality of Gods word.
    Which is sad to be honest. but het we can't make the world knows these things. Our Father has to open people's eyes. The "world" wants us "comfortable" with lies and leave reality. Christ wants us to know the truth and be in reality.(Kriss)
    All must choose who they will follow the real Christ or the false one.
    True. I already chose mine.(Kriss)
    Sean accuses us of just not listening to him the problem is rapture is not in the bible its a lie of men.
    Yea, isn't Lucy the author of confusion? Yea. (I Corinthians 14:33) Is Lucy the author of false accusions? I say unto ye, Yea.(Kriss)
    The bible makes it very clear in two verses there is no rapture fly away doctrine. There are more but these two make it pretty clear.Its not my believe or Swampfox, and Bets belief its the word of God he wants us to be ready for battle. Not told we are flying away.. Ezekiel 13:20Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.1 Corinthians 15:52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed
    Yea, isn't that the purpose of our Gospel (Spiritual) Armour. I say unto ye, Yea.Ephesians 6:10-20 - Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
     
  4. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    It seems that you see an association with that specific belief and a vulnerability to the Anti-Christ. That makes it dangerous indeed! But what about the rapture as a specific belief makes it so vulnerable (compared to other incorrect beliefs) to this deception?
    Typically, at least in my own experiences, the rapture is taught by the church as something that will happen so we don't have to know and understand the rest of Scripture in most cases. It often involves grabbing certain verses from here and there while ignoring the rest of them and the surrounding context. This gets dangerous quickly because it ignores that the antichrist will show up as Christ. These people thinking Christ is coming to rapture them away first and then the false one comes as a big and bad man much later. If you don't know the Scriptures about the fake, then this can become a problem if you're planning on seeing Christ coming to get you first. Especially when the antichrist shows up saying that he's going to take care of you and will rapture you away from the trouble. You'll notice that I cite the Bible that E. W. Bullinger assembled quite often. He was a rapture believer but he knew Scripture. I don't want to be seen as a judge as any regard, but I firmly believe a man of the make that Bullinger was as such an excellent scholar would know when the rapture didn't unfold. If I can get these rapture believers to even look at the Scriptures, then I am satisfied in my purpose because that will help them know. I just hate it when books and video games are believed over the Word. On top of that, as I documented above, God's wrath will come against those that have accepted the mark. If one thinks the antichrist is the Christ, they'll accept that mark. Heaven forbid it, but it will happen because some will choose to ignore the Word. To make my own play on words here - God uses a two-edged sword in his Word. There is a major theme illustrated by imagery straight out of the relationship of a man in a woman with regards to our relationship to God. We are to be found without child - spiritually speaking(!) - for example. The message is to be faithful and loyal. These who go whoring after false religions will feel the wrath of that cup that is so often spoken of. Jesus isn't the groom for no real reason. How it's all going to go down is right here in front of us, and buddy when one fails to read and understand, it's no one's fault but their own.
     
  5. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (SwampFox)
    I just hate it when books and video games are believed over the Word.
    Sadly, that used to be me minus the part where nobody even told me about the Word or God. Oh well, I'm glad I can study now as it is reality...not a fairy tale.
     
  6. Bamp;#39;midbar

    Bamp;#39;midbar New Member

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    Thank you, all three of you. I see the danger. If you think you are going to be gone before the Anti-Christ, then you are hardly going to be on the lookout. The leaders ought to tell people that false people will say, “I am the Christ.” A great falling away will happen. I think of how diligent Paul could be when giving people warnings, with tears:
    Acts 20:29 "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 "Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.
    People should imitate his diligence. Also, I think people should be warned not to have itching ears. There are many false teachers and ravenous wolves, and we must be careful there. There is great danger in falling away from the faith.
    2 Timothy 3:3 For the time is coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine, but having itching ears, they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own desires, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander away to myths.
     
  7. Sean A.

    Sean A. New Member

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    I’m back…but for a short time! I thought I would try again to talk a little sense into you guys.Here are 3 different commentaries and normally I don’t like to refer to them but I just wanted to know how many thought this verse related to the rapture. I also looked in NIV study Bible and it didn’t even make a comment on it. Nelson’s Commentary13:20–23 These prophetesses were sowing discouragement and doubt among those not involved in demonic divination and were offering encouragement to those already initiated: the righteous . . . the wicked. They would be stopped through the same judgment that was to come on the rest of the false prophets.Believer’s Bible commentary13:17–23 The prophetesses practiced witchcraft, putting magic charms on people’s wrists and veils on their heads. They doomed some people to death by magic spells and kept others alive. GOD would deliver His people and destroy these false prophetesses.KJV Commentary17–23. The practices of these women are associated with the occult, as seen in verse 23, Divine divinations. My people here has reference to Israel and, perhaps particularly, the godly remnant in Israel.Now wouldn’t you think some of these Bible scholars would have made some kind of comment about the rapture or lack thereof if this actually referred to it?As for the word rapture here is a explanation that should make sense but probably not. This should prove that it is a word of conveinence. I'll start with some ground work. When we are talking about "the rapture" (Pre, Mid, or Post Trib) we have to understand where the word comes from. The word rapture is not used in the English Bible but it is implied and I'll give info to back this up. This is out of Strong's Lexicon726ἁρπάζω [harpazo /har·pad·zo/] v. From a derivative of 138; TDNT 1:472; TDNTA 80; GK 773; 13 occurrences; AV translates as “catch up” four times, “take by force” three times, “catch away” twice, “pluck” twice, “catch” once, and “pull” once. 1 to seize, carry off by force. 2 to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly. 3 to snatch out or away.In the Latin the word was "rapiemur". I'll show 1 Thes. 4:17 in the Latin to prove this. When the Latin Vulgate was translated from the Greek this is the word they used for harpazo!I The 4:17 Deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur [suddenly caught up] cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus.The English word rapture comes from this Latin word. So when we are discussing verses that use the words like "caught up" then it should be understood that it refers to the same meaning as the word "rapture".Let the pounding begin!
     
  8. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Now wouldn’t you think some of these Bible scholars would have made some kind of comment about the rapture or lack thereof if this actually referred to it?
    I don't base my interpretation on what the commentary does or doesn't say. False doctrines and flying away are nothing new under the sun, I think this verse illustrates that quite well.
    As for the word rapture here is a explanation that should make sense but probably not. This should prove that it is a word of conveinence.
    I actually outlined this in our study on the site. Rapture is drawn from the Latin word (see above post) that is the equivalent of the Greek harpazo. Rapture itself didn't initially mean what it does now as far as time. However, the word itself has been modernized to mean what was once called the pretribulation rapture. This puts Christ coming back twice because in v.16 he's heralded by Michael, the Archangel. He descends with a shout. This is Gr. keleuma which is Strong's #G2752: [list type=decimal][*]an order, command, spec. a stimulating cry, either that by which animals are roused and urged on by man, as horses by charioteers, hounds by hunters, etc., or that by which a signal is given to men, e.g. to rowers by the master of a ship, to soldiers by a commander (with a loud summons, a trumpet call)[/list]
     
  9. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    again we aren't saying we are not changed in the twingling of an eye into spiritual bodies its just very clear it is at the last trumph no other time. You can search and struggle to make your Pre-trib rapture fit but it is not in Gods word period unless you want to base your salvation on an misunderstanding in 1Thess 4 if you are comfortable with that fine. We will go with Gods clearly stated word. God isnt the author of confusion if he was coming back before the last trump he would have said so just as clearly as he says hes coming ay the last one. The rapture is called a theroy because thats what it is a theroy not a fact Ill stake my salvation on facts not mens theroy yours is up to you
     
  10. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    As a matter of fact Sean think about this: The mistake made by the church of Thessolians (1 thess 4)is very similar to the rapture mistake they thought Christs return was imminent, and Paul had to correct them(2 Thess) telling them the great falling away caused byThe Man of Lawlessness ( Satan )had to come first so in essence 1 Thess. is closer to proving Christ coming soon to rapture you is false,and the same lie the Thessolianians believed. and you should not make the same mistake. Christ isn't coming any day (as the Thessolians thought) but after the falling away and at last Trump
     
  11. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    If you are right Sean we all get raptured ...end of it...we sit in heavan and watch Satan beat kill and torture the unbelievers left behind on earth... But if we are right, you are left here thinking Christ has come when actually its the instead of christ... He will have another lie for you rapurists , probably that he doens't want to leave behind your loved ones and thats when you'll hand over the elect who will not bend the knee to the false christ... Man play the odds if nothing else, get ready and know that if you are not immediatly changed into the Spirit body when he gets here WE WERE RIGHT... its like leading you to salvation for us... we love you and care for you and don't want you to worship satan thinking he's Christ...What is motivating you? our love for YOU is motivating us...
     
  12. HeatherLeigh7

    HeatherLeigh7 New Member

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    Ezekiel 13:20 is talking about false prophetesses sewing pillows over God's outstretched saving arms...taking it upon themselves to cushion things. It is so close to the origins of the Rapture theory. Margaret McDonald dreamed it up in the 1830's. False prophetess sewing pillows...teaching his children to fly.Look her up on Wikipedia. I haven't posted enough yet to be allowed to post links. Sorry. [​IMG]
     
  13. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Most rapture doctrine believers (and I am not saying all nor am I targeting anyone is specific with this statement) also apparently hold very strong to the interpretation of I Timothy that women shouldn't teach at all. I find this very ironic that they believe in this yet also believe in the doctrine of a 15 year old girl that claimed to see visions.I don't normally run on personal attacks, but this truth needs to get out there:
    Among her prophecies, McDonald claimed that Robert Owen, the founder of New Harmony, Indiana was the Antichrist.
    (Source: Wikipedia)I guess that sort of puts that rapture believers out of luck. They've already missed the secret rapture because the antichrist died over a century ago.Hey, if you want to let a 15 year old tell you what to believe over the Word of God, then that's your choice.
     
  14. Daniyel

    Daniyel New Member

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    Dan. 12:1-2:"And there will be a time of tribulation such as has never been since nations came into existence...and at that time...those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to ever lasting life and some to everlasting cocontempt." Consistently in Scripture, the resurrection of the saints is said to occur right after the tribulation; viz."on the last day." The duration of the tribulation is to be found in relation to the question "How long" in Dan. 12:6; viz. three and a half years.
     
  15. jodycour

    jodycour New Member

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    Hi, I'm new to this site!I am an ordained minister, I've been so since1985.I do definately believe that there will be a rapture!There actually already has been one. When Jesus was resurected, the Word of God tells us that, the graves where opened and the Old Testament Saints got up and walked around. If these were only spirits, as some people believed, why where the graves opened?Interesting huh?The Word also refers to us having to be taken away so that the Anti-Christ can have reign!If we were not removed we would have power over him!So he would not beable to do all that he needs to do!Bro.Jody
     
  16. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    If we were not removed we would have power over him!
    Luke 10:19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
     
  17. jodycour

    jodycour New Member

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    We do have power now, that's why He doesn't reign now!
     
  18. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    The power is not limited to a time and place. It's given to us over all our enemies. If you believe on Christ and are saved through him you don't need a pretrib. rapture to stay safe.
     
  19. jodycour

    jodycour New Member

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    Well,I wasn't refering to ourselves being safe, I was refering to the Anti-Christ being exploited for who he is, and that we have power over all of our enemies so we need to be taken out of the way!
     
  20. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Hi, I'm new to this site!I am an ordained minister, I've been so since1985.I do definately believe that there will be a rapture!There actually already has been one. When Jesus was resurected, the Word of God tells us that, the graves where opened and the Old Testament Saints got up and walked around. If these were only spirits, as some people believed, why where the graves opened?Interesting huh?The Word also refers to us having to be taken away so that the Anti-Christ can have reign!If we were not removed we would have power over him!So he would not beable to do all that he needs to do!Bro.Jody
    May I asked based on what that you believe this.
     
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