Reason for The Crusades explained

[Matthias]

No but your argument against Scripture principles in practice, like doing justice, buying a sword and using it IS a Strawman.

You haven’t read all of my posts and it’s obvious.

 

[Wrangler]

They didn’t violate Scripture and they suffered injustice.

Suffering injustice is no excuse to do DO JUSTICE yourself. What kind of victim mentality is that?

 

[Matthias]

Agreed. Like him slaughtering all his enemies as the first order of business upon his return.

Read it again. When he returns.

In the meantime, you would have his followers kill one another.

Do I have that Scripture correct?

 

[Matthias]

Suffering injustice is no excuse to do DO JUSTICE yourself.

They did do justice themselves.

What kind of victim mentality is that?

 

[Wrangler]

You haven’t read all of my posts and it’s obvious.

Stop hijacking the thread. This thread is about the reasons FOR the Crusades. Seems you want to talk about anything but. Deflection. Odd fanaticism for a pacifist.

 

[Matthias]

Stop hijacking the thread. This thread is about the reasons FOR the Crusades.

What are you talking about? Read your own posts.

Seems you want to talk about anything but. Deflection. Odd fanaticism for a pacifist.

I’ve talked about the reasons for the Crusades. (So have others.) Your protestation to the contrary is groundless.

 

[Wrangler]

I’ve talked about the reasons for the Crusades.

Oh? What post was that? I seem to recall you launched into immediate condemnation and couldn't even explain what your principle objection was to the Crusades. Here is the earliest post from you.

I’m not defending or condoning the acts of the Muslims, but neither am I defending or condoning the acts of the Crusaders.

Not defending the Crusaders is EXACTLY what you've done for 44 pages. Not once providing the reasons FOR the Crusades.

 

[Matthias]

Oh? What post was that?

Multiple posts.

I seem to recall you launched into immediate condemnation and couldn't even explain what your principle objection was to the Crusades. Here is the earliest post from you.

See all of my posts. Because you haven’t, you speak out of ignorance.

Not defending the Crusaders is EXACTLY what you've done for 44 pages.

I haven’t defended the Crusaders in any of my posts.

Not once providing the reasons FOR the Crusades.

See above.

 

[Matthias]

@Wrangler lives in the United States. Know this, you followers of Jesus who live outside of the United States: he would kill you if war broke out between the United States and the nation you live in; and he would think that he was serving God for doing it.

Instead of following his example, follow the example of the apostles and the followers of Jesus who did not kill the followers of Jesus who lived in nations that were at war with the nations they lived in.

It isn’t Jesus who wants his followers to kill his followers. Never forget that.

Matthew 12:25; Mark 3:25; Luke 11:17.

 

[Wrangler]

Multiple posts.

I haven’t defended the Crusaders in any of my posts.

Blatantly contradicting yourself. You claim to have provided the reasons FOR the Crusades in ‘multiple posts’ and in THE VERY SAME POST confess you haven’t defended the crusaders in any posts.

You are so over—spiritualized, you cannot even intellectually acknowledge the reasons other devoted Christians acted soulful considerations for the sake of JUSTICE.

 

[Wrangler]

@Wrangler lives in the United States. Know this, you followers of Jesus who live outside of the United States: he would kill you if war broke out between the United States and the nation you live in; and he would think that he was serving God for doing it

What does give to Caesar what is Caesar mean to you in practice as it pertains to military service of killing people?

Nothing.

 

[Matthias]

Blatantly contradicting yourself.

Certainly not.

You claim to have provided the reasons FOR the Crusades in ‘multiple posts’ …

Which I have.

… and in THE VERY SAME POST confess you haven’t defended the crusaders in any posts.

I’ve attacked the Crusaders in posts where I’ve spoken about them.

No reasonable person would see providing the reasons for the Crusades and not defending the Crusaders as a contradiction; they would see it as a criticism of the whole proposition.

You are so over—spiritualized, you cannot even intellectually acknowledge the reasons other devoted Christians acted soulful considerations for the sake of JUSTICE.

See above.

 

[Matthias]

What does give to Caesar what is Caesar mean to you in practice as it pertains to military service of killing people?

Nothing.

You’re wrong again. I see it as something -> something that Jesus did not command his followers to do and something which the followers of Jesus should not do.

***

Jesus did command his followers to pay their taxes. Jesus did command his followers to obey the governments of the world but not to obey the governments of the world when they demanded his followers to do what the followers of Jesus should not do.

Jesus did not command his followers to enlist in the military services of the nations. In the first 300 plus years of Christianity, those who became followers of Jesus left the military or were executewd by the military. This information has been provided in the thread.

Followers of Jesus, if the government commands you to kill fellow followers of Jesus, do not do it.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I’d like to know how many members approve of @Wrangler’s teaching.

I will hazard a guess and say those who relish the thought of an eternal fiery hell for all those who fail to support their view....and those who are desensitised to violence in their choice of entertainment.

Like him slaughtering all his enemies as the first order of business upon his return. Do I have that Scripture correct?

What are you missing in all your arguments Wrangler?......Authorisation.

The “world” (Caesar’s governments) is authorized to do whatever it wants to, because satan is it’s god and ruler (1 John 5:1; Luke 4:5-7).....the devil has God’s permission to do his darndest to derail the faith and commitment of Christ’s disciples to remain separated from “the world” where violence is the remedy for everything. We cannot do violence to our Christian brothers and sisters (1 John 4:20-21) nor do we have God’s sanction to take a human life...ever.

We are to be “NO PART OF THE WORLD”.....do you understand what that means in real terms? It means that if God permits the world to do whatever it does under satan’s Influence, then you have to become “PART OF THE WORLD” in order to participate in its violence. If you are part of the world, you have no part with God.

No amount of justification will disarm Scripture......I would rather be “over-spiritualized” than devoid of real spirituality altogether, just to become part of what God is going to destroy in the end, anyway.

When Christ returns he will not have a human army, but angels who are authorized to carry out justice....the real and lasting kind.

 

[Matthias]

Readers, is it the faithful and wise followers of Jesus who are teaching you to kill his brothers and sisters in war or is it the foolish and wicked who are teaching you to kill his brothers and sisters in war?

Unless the foolish and wicked repent, the Messiah is going to cut them in pieces when he returns.

 

[Matthias]

“You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill.”

Why is this not a military recruitment tool?

How many followers of Jesus would enlist in the militaries of the nations in which they reside if it was?

 

[Matthias]

“I talked to a brother the other day who was a conscientious objector in the 1960’s. I asked him why he refused to do military service.

‘Because I don’t want to kill a Christian brother. And it would be unreasonable to first run and ask an enemy soldier what he believes before you eventually kill him. So I can’t kill anyone.’

I found this argument for pacifism very interesting. Now, I think it’s clear that Jesus doesn’t want me killing anyone, regardless of their faith. He wants me to love my enemies (Mt 5:44) and not use weapons of war (2 Cor. 10:3).”

Should Christians Kill Each Other?

I talked to a brother the other day who was a conscientious objector in the 1960’s. I asked him why he refused to do military service. “Because I don’t want to kill a Christian br…

pcpj.org

The Crusaders didn’t love their enemies. (It shouldn’t be necessary for me to say that they used weapons of war.)

The Crusaders fought against Christian brothers and sisters (as well as Muslims and Jews). I will speak against them whenever the subject arises.

 

[Matthias]

“From Medieval Times to the Enlightenment

Throughout the Medieval Era, Christians continued to persecute Jews.

When Pope Urban II called for the liberation if Jerusalem in 1095, the biblical tropes of Jews as Christ killers and devils inspired Christian crusaders to slaughter thousands of Jews.”

Understanding the Origins of Antisemitism

When you think about the antisemitism definition, if you're asking why are Jews hated, or what is antisemitism, it's vital to look back at the historical progression of the world’s most ancient hatred.

www.ajc.org

@Wrangler stands with the “inspired Crusaders”. I stand against him and against the Crusaders.

Slaughtering unbelieving Jews is not something Jesus commanded his followers to do.

 

[Wrangler]

What are you missing in all your arguments Wrangler?......Authorisation.

Again with the enslaved mindset. Why do you keep ignoring there where the Lord is, there is freedom, 2 Corinthians 3:17?

Plus, there is plenty of sanction detailed in Scripture as summarized by these posts. You're just in denial.

And then you will be an apologist for Christians warring, including the Battle of Tours 732 and the Crusades? LOL This question reveals you have not read or understood Scripture at all. Ever read my signature?

1. He trains my hands for war. 2 Samuel 22:35
   • Do you suppose this training has no practical application? That God trains us to do a thing only for us NOT to do that thing?
2. Ex 5:3 Yahweh is a man of war; Yahweh is his name.
3. We are made in Gods image. Ge 1:27
   • Just who do you suppose we - being made in God' image, a man of war - should war against, if not our brothers and sisters that live in another Nation?
4. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey. 1 Samuel 15:3
   
   • I look forward to the over-spiritualized engaging in mental gymnastics and rationalizations on this one.
5. Conquest of Canaan. Joshua 1:1-6
6. And the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’ “One suggested this, and another that. 1 Kings 22:20

Many do not grasp why Jesus is NOT called the king of peace. A prince is in the waiting, his power yet to be In full effect. Christ's ministry is to show us a better way that is yet to come, which explains why he said the Kingdom of God is near, i.e., not here yet. And also why his 2nd Coming will began by Jesus waging war and defeating his enemies. In the meantime, we war. Pay attention his story, history, our story is the story of war.

I look forward to my prayers being answered in reading your honest answers to these questions tomorrow:

1. What are the reasons FOR the Crusades?
2. What is your primary objection to the Crusades?
3. If attending to soulful, worldly and fleshy needs is inherently sinful, why is the Sabbath only 1 day/week?
4. What are we supposed to do the other 6 days of the week if only one day is reserved exclusively for spiritual matters?
5. Why do you not accuse Christ of having in his heart to kill people but do accuse me?
6. Is following Jesus commands to buy a sword (with the intent to use it for its intended purpose) and give to government what is the government sinful?
7. If killing people is inherently sinful, why did God command us to do justice, which always included killing people? See God’s judgement throughout the OT and Christ at Rev 19.
8. If killing people is inherently sinful, why is murder prohibited in the 10C while killing is not prohibited?
9. If killing people is inherently sinful, why is it the first order of business upon Christ’s return?
10. If killing people is inherently sinful, why will Christ ultimately condemn many to death in The Lake of Fire on Judgment Day, aka The Second Death?

Thank you for your attention in these matters.

 

[Wrangler]

@Wrangler stands with the “inspired Crusaders”. I stand against him and against the Crusaders.

You only stand because there are Christians who reject your pacifism. Otherwise, you'd be slaughtered as kafirs by Jihadi's.