Reason for The Crusades explained
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The Early Church Fathers didn’t travel on warships. If you would only take the time to read them you would find out and understand why.
I thought about this warship as I drove to Lexington this afternoon. Its cannons aren’t visible; the weapons of man aren’t trained on me. It’s not an intimidating scene, but it nevertheless sends a message.
The real Crusaders would have unleashed their weapons on me; of that I have no doubt.
But what about the wannabe Crusaders? That’s the thought that kept running through my mind as the miles mounted up behind me.
I’m a Christian pastor, retired, a minister of the gospel of peace. I’m armed only with the armor of God; not ready to kill. Would @Armour of God and @Wrangler have the audacity to gun me down? Would they really do to me what their heroes, the Crusaders, would have done had they encountered me? How far will they go to demonstrate they live their principles?
“Although the first three centuries of the Christian movement were marked by an almost universal stance of pacifism, one can trace a perceptible - albeit grudging - easing of the prohibition against Christian involvement in warfare. While the bishops and leaders certainly did not advocate active killing in war, they did begin to allow believers to serve under strict conditions.
As historian Roland Bainton notes, the ascension of Constantine in 324 marks the point of transition in the teaching of the church. It is the position of the authors that this transition marked the first step of decent into a sanctioned theology of holy war. …”
(Christian Jihad, p. 48)
I’m a primitive Christian. I recognize and acknowledge the transition took place - I’m bound by the constraints of history to do so - but I don't support the transition.
As historian Roland Bainton notes, the ascension of Constantine in 324 marks the point of transition in the teaching of the church. It is the position of the authors that this transition marked the first step of decent into a sanctioned theology of holy war. …”
(Christian Jihad, p. 48)
I’m a primitive Christian. I recognize and acknowledge the transition took place - I’m bound by the constraints of history to do so - but I don't support the transition.
Wrangler
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The reason is simple. 12 people aren't enough to establish a government, let alone make war.
There's no evidence the early church father's brushed their teeth. That's no reason for us to not act on our responsibilities.
Wrangler
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Yea, that's what all your posts in this thread are about - bound by the constraints of history to answer the reasons FOR the Crusades.
Such hypocrisy! You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
12 people? I’m talking about the Early Church Fathers, not 12 people.
According to you and the concealed identity church you attend, they were all armed with swords and ready to kill. In fact they had no swords and spoke loud and clear against Christian participation in war.
The reasons for the Crusades were clearly identified in the OP and have been reiterated many times, by various persons, throughout the thread.
The transition from the pacifism of the first three centuries of church history to Christian participation in the wars of the nations is important. The Crusades wouldn’t have happened without it. As I will go on to demonstrate, the shift in attitude and teaching started with very tight restrictions - Christians would be allowed by the church to serve in the military but not allowed to kill their enemies - and gradually loosened with the passage of time.
I’m not the one who is teaching Christians that they have to be “armed, ready to kill” in order to follow Jesus. It is you and your concealed identity church who should be ashamed.
Christian history is rebuking you.
Please provide the names of the 12 people whom you are referring to.
All extant writings of the Early Church Fathers are available to read online at no cost.
This is what they look like in my personal library.
The task set before @Wrangler isn’t as daunting as he may think it to be. The pacifism of the early Christians / Christian churches is primarily documented in the ten volumes covering the Ante Nicene period. (The red volumes.) He probably doesn’t know that because he hasn’t read them. (If he has read them, he knows it.) I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but either way he (and his concealed identity church) is misleading the audience.
It is those writings which disprove and dispose of his teaching on the matter.
I encourage everyone to read the Early Church Fathers.
As we witnessed in this thread a couple of days ago, @Wrangler rejected my recommendation to read two excellent books on the martyrs. In this post I‘m making another book recommendation for him and for all of my readers:
NayborBear
Active Member
Yes! I can explain why:
Because! That's why!
Because there was Prophecy coming to pass afoot! Prophecy that wouldn't have come to pass HAD "physical/carnal(some say)" been implemented!
Which is why Jesus healed the guard's ear Simon lopped off. Otherwise? There WOULD have been even MORE physical violence, and injury, death, and arrests forthcoming. Not to mention the isolating and persecuting/s of what few followers of Christ and His teachings which He had received from the Father!
Meaning? The WHOLE POINT of the "Lamb slain from the foundations of the world?"
Would have been for naught!
And one may ask: "Wouldn't the healing of the guard's ear have convinced, or at least signaled to 'em that they were arresting someone special?"
Which is a more than viable question!
Until one considers that with God? ALL things are possible!
I'm thinking a "spirit of stupor" that caused 'em to treat the situation like a jump rope. "SKIP IT!"
Orders to follow and be carried out!And, forgot about as quickly as snapping your fingers.
But?............THAT?.........Was THEN!.........Which isn't NOW! Some two thousand years LATER, now is it?
Yes! I can explain why:
Because! That's why!
Because there was Prophecy coming to pass afoot! Prophecy that wouldn't have come to pass HAD "physical/carnal(some say)" been implemented!
Which is why Jesus healed the guard's ear Simon lopped off. Otherwise? There WOULD have been even MORE physical violence, and injury, death, and arrests forthcoming. Not to mention the isolating and persecuting/s of what few followers of Christ and His teachings which He had received from the Father!
Meaning? The WHOLE POINT of the "Lamb slain from the foundations of the world?"
Would have been for naught!
And one may ask: "Wouldn't the healing of the guard's ear have convinced, or at least signaled to 'em that they were arresting someone special?"
Which is a more than viable question!
Until one considers that with God? ALL things are possible!
I'm thinking a "spirit of stupor" that caused 'em to treat the situation like a jump rope. "SKIP IT!"
And, forgot about as quickly as snapping your fingers.
But?............THAT?.........Was THEN!.........Which isn't NOW! Some two thousand years LATER, now is it?
Thanks. The Christians / Christian churches were pacifist until the 4th century.
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NayborBear
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From what I've read/learned is that they really didn't have much choice. As non-Christian "heathen/pagans," were dead set on annihilation of these "Christ-Men!" It was brutal from accounts I've read!
And it wasn't until a Christian Constantine's reign in that region, and his "pursuit for peace," when it was mandated (by force) for both sides to compromise!
To which some of these pagan practices and ceremonies have long been "absorbed/adopted" by even today's Churches, to the point of watering down by these "traditions of men." Or/And, justified by passive empathetic bands of believers subscribing to a motto of "going along to get along."
Or? The brutality of the conflict/s endured by these early Christians would STILL be going on today!
So, it is little wonder when the Catholic Church in Rome became set upon a course of war, conspired with some people (plausible deniability ya know?) in creating (I'd say by means of rye ergot) that some guy named Mohammad during one of these "sessions/trip/s" where/when he had a "vision." shortly thereafter declaring himself a prophet. To wage war AGAINST those non-repentive Jews to Jesus Christ of Nazareth! To the dismay at the Church in Rome? Got out of control very quickly!..........And?........Is (more or less) to this day!
This is my take on the how and why of "The Crusades."
(political opinion coming..)
Which is why I liken "The Donald" to much like one of those "Crusader's of Yesteryear."
And God Bless Israel! Although "blinded in part" until the "fullness of the Gentiles" (that's us folks) come in!
As to just what the word/term "fullness" means, or is?.......
Not sure!.......But in case it gets "Western?"
Best keep your powder dry!
Better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it!
(Most any native Indian will tell ya: "If the government tells you don't need guns?" (trust 'em) "You need guns!")
Wrangler
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He's too fanatically triggered by this thread to acknowledge the thread title - the reasons FOR the Crusades.
A thread about the reasons Islam should not have ever used force, especially in conquering the holy lands would be of no interest to him. Any reason is OK with this hypocrite. As soon as it comes to millions of Christians for centuries defending themselves from such a scourge, he can't cope. Scripture and the facts of history produce cognitive dissonance with his pacifism.
I’ve acknowledged the thread title, multiple times.
That’s not true. That’s not even logical.
Yet another assertion that isn’t true.
Of course I can cope with it. I’ve spent and am spending a great deal of time examining the history and your false narrative about it. I’m reading a book right now (that has been in my private library for twenty years) that wasn’t even on my radar to read in the next ten years - because of your false teaching.
Scripture and history are on my side. I’m using Christian sources to prove that is the case.
The Early Church Fathers seal the matter in my favor. You know that is true if you’ve read them.
If we are truly following Jesus, we must be governed by His principles.
Love your enemies.
Turn the other cheek.
Resist not evil.
Peter, put away thy sword.
My kingdom is not of this world, thus my servants do not fight.
Blessed be the peacemakers.
We wrestle not against flesh and blood.
Let your light so shine before men.
The Crusaders violated all these principles when they killed, raped, and pillaged under the banner of the holy cross.
Crusader armies, particularly during the First (1099) and Fourth (1204) Crusades, frequently engaged in widespread rape, slaughter, and looting of civilians, including Jews, Muslims, and fellow Christians. These atrocities occurred throughout their journeys, notably in the Rhine valley, during the siege of Antioch, and notably in the brutal 1204 sack of Constantinople.
“For three days, or perhaps even a week, the crusaders perpetrated every single atrocity under the sun—rape, pillage, murder,” Gibson said. “The chroniclers talk about ‘rivers of blood’ running in the streets of the city, and it may not be an exaggeration. Terrible crimes were committed, and a lot of people died, Christians included. Local Christians were considered just as heretical as the Muslims and the Jews. They turned Jerusalem into a ghost town.”
inside.charlotte.edu
Love your enemies.
Turn the other cheek.
Resist not evil.
Peter, put away thy sword.
My kingdom is not of this world, thus my servants do not fight.
Blessed be the peacemakers.
We wrestle not against flesh and blood.
Let your light so shine before men.
The Crusaders violated all these principles when they killed, raped, and pillaged under the banner of the holy cross.
Crusader armies, particularly during the First (1099) and Fourth (1204) Crusades, frequently engaged in widespread rape, slaughter, and looting of civilians, including Jews, Muslims, and fellow Christians. These atrocities occurred throughout their journeys, notably in the Rhine valley, during the siege of Antioch, and notably in the brutal 1204 sack of Constantinople.
“For three days, or perhaps even a week, the crusaders perpetrated every single atrocity under the sun—rape, pillage, murder,” Gibson said. “The chroniclers talk about ‘rivers of blood’ running in the streets of the city, and it may not be an exaggeration. Terrible crimes were committed, and a lot of people died, Christians included. Local Christians were considered just as heretical as the Muslims and the Jews. They turned Jerusalem into a ghost town.”
Archaeological evidence verifies long-doubted medieval accounts of First Crusade conquest - Inside UNC Charlotte
The UNC Charlotte-led archaeological dig on Jerusalem’s Mount Zion has been going on for over a decade, and through stratigraphic evidence, the archaeologists have been able to confirm the 11th century date of the 17-meter-wide by 4-meter-deep ditch, which abutted the Fatimid city wall (built in...
inside.charlotte.edu
NayborBear
Active Member
Ecclesiastes 3:
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
See a whole lot of peace. Don't see any war, nor killing!
Christianity has become so empathetic pacifists!
You quote verses from the Old Testament. You wish you could see more war waged by Christians?Ecclesiastes 3:
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
See a whole lot of peace. Don't see any war, nor killing!
Christianity has become so empathetic pacifists!
Jesus did not teach that war, violence, or killing is okay.
According to @Wrangler and his concealed identity church … does it seem normal to you that someone would refuse to identify the name of the church they attend? ... Jesus, the Apostles, and all of the followers of Jesus were armed, ready to.“ History documents that they weren’t and didn’t.
It was.
The rise of Constantine marks the beginning of a transition in the church from pacifistic to non-pacifistic. I’m in the process of documenting the transition. Transition. Change. No longer doing what formerly was done. That’s church history, and the documentation of the shift in teaching and practice is well-preserved for us. Wrangler and his concealed identity church ... does concealing the identity of the church he attends from his audience give you confidence that he has nothing to hide? … are history deniers. Why would he / they do that?
They did endure them and suffered greatly. If they were “armed, ready to kill” as Wrangler and his concealed identity church … concealed, hidden in the shadows, avoiding the light … then why did they endure and suffer greatly instead of using their weapons of the world to prevent that from happening?
Persecution of Christians - armed and unarmed - is still going on today.
Wrangler is a unitarian but he approves of the Catholic Church in Rome having “set upon a course of war.“ Do you like irony? The Crusaders killed unitarians. Wrangler would have been slain by his heroes.
This is my take on the how and why of "The Crusades."
(political opinion coming..)
Which is why I liken "The Donald" to much like one of those "Crusader's of Yesteryear."
And God Bless Israel! Although "blinded in part" until the "fullness of the Gentiles" (that's us folks) come in!
As to just what the word/term "fullness" means, or is?.......
Not sure!.......But in case it gets "Western?"
Best keep your powder dry!
Better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it!
(Most any native Indian will tell ya: "If the government tells you don't need guns?" (trust 'em) "You need guns!")
The how and why of the Crusades are clearly spelled out in the thread.
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