Wrangler
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Reason for The Crusades explained
- Thread starter Debp
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“The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world.” - Paul
Do you know the account of Bishop James of Nisibis? I’ll go over it for my readers when I return home this evening.
Wrangler
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Give to Caesar what is Caesar's is a principle Jesus espoused. It is in line with Odo Amoris that St. Thomas Acquinas expounded on Summa Theologica.
Neither Jesus, nor the Apostles, killed for Caesar; neither did they teach followers of Jesus to kill for him.
The words of Peter, though spoken in a different context, are applicable here: ”We must obey God rather than man.”
NayborBear
Active Member
I think in the process of your reading/research/documenting? You may well discover, or come to a point that there was indeed "violence" waged from both sides, as the "still young and growing Church" at the time was "forced:" Not to "simply endure", but: DEFEND THE FAITH from the forces that were set upon their extinction! (a motto that has been so watered down as to have little to no meaning these days)
And it was indeed the "when" the Christian Constantine "mandated/commanded:" by force when necessary, (how can I say) Christ's Church?
A "Victim Of The GREAT COMPROMISE!"
Of which many, of the paganistic/heathen items, although, somewhat watered down, are still being practiced and observed in today's Churches.
Forced "conversions" and torture too, from what I understand. That is not the way of Christ. No can come to Jesus by force, it is an act of the Holy Spirit in a soul that is willing.If we are truly following Jesus, we must be governed by His principles.
Love your enemies.
Turn the other cheek.
Resist not evil.
Peter, put away thy sword.
My kingdom is not of this world, thus my servants do not fight.
Blessed be the peacemakers.
We wrestle not against flesh and blood.
Let your light so shine before men.
The Crusaders violated all these principles when they killed, raped, and pillaged under the banner of the holy cross.
Crusader armies, particularly during the First (1099) and Fourth (1204) Crusades, frequently engaged in widespread rape, slaughter, and looting of civilians, including Jews, Muslims, and fellow Christians. These atrocities occurred throughout their journeys, notably in the Rhine valley, during the siege of Antioch, and notably in the brutal 1204 sack of Constantinople.
“For three days, or perhaps even a week, the crusaders perpetrated every single atrocity under the sun—rape, pillage, murder,” Gibson said. “The chroniclers talk about ‘rivers of blood’ running in the streets of the city, and it may not be an exaggeration. Terrible crimes were committed, and a lot of people died, Christians included. Local Christians were considered just as heretical as the Muslims and the Jews. They turned Jerusalem into a ghost town.”
Archaeological evidence verifies long-doubted medieval accounts of First Crusade conquest - Inside UNC Charlotte
The UNC Charlotte-led archaeological dig on Jerusalem’s Mount Zion has been going on for over a decade, and through stratigraphic evidence, the archaeologists have been able to confirm the 11th century date of the 17-meter-wide by 4-meter-deep ditch, which abutted the Fatimid city wall (built in...inside.charlotte.edu
I‘ve been quoting the historical record extensively -> Christians in the Ante Nice period (and before) did not kill their enemies. Christians in the Nicene period (and after) did kill their enemies.
When you listen to Paul say, “We do not use the weapons of the world,” what do you hear?
Yes, there is a time for war....except that our weapons are not carnal....but mighty IN GOD.Ecclesiastes 3:
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
See a whole lot of peace. Don't see any war, nor killing!
Christianity has become so empathetic pacifists!
But don't you worry, there are always plenty of worldly governments and people to make war of the carnal kind.....because the Way to life is narrow and only a few find it.
Does anyone here believe that Caesar loved his enemies?
I’m particularly interested in hearing from @Wrangler, @Armour of God, @NayborBear on this question.
I’m particularly interested in hearing from @Wrangler, @Armour of God, @NayborBear on this question.
NayborBear
Active Member
Do you mean these (self professing) "Christians?"
But, to further answer this "clip" I posted. Would we, or even Should we as trying as we may in "imitating" Christ, be doing these same things in shepherding? As opposed to "Sheep Herding?"
Or?
Are we to act like so many "servants" working for the House Holder in this parable, where He stated:
Matthew 13:
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Well?.......Tis been Two Thousand years!
I keep reading where you are wondering what "identity concealed Church" a fellow posting Wrangler attends. And thought I'd share my thought/s on which Church I attend.
I rather "envision" from what I've read in the Bible, what, or how "Temple" was, or what really went on in there. There was this time Mary and Joseph were searching high and low for their young first born. And discovered him in Temple teaching, and others, listening. Kind of like old men sitting around a cracker or pickle barrow, solving world problems.
IMHO? Pretty much? This is the Church, or Temple, I attend. Care to place a name, label, or denomination on it? I guess? One could also liken it to an "Interactive Sunday School?"
I can't "pigeon hole" a name, or denomination on it! Like so many others would wont to do.
I dunno! Perhaps can be called: "Church of the Interactive Tare Hunters, Separators, and Binders?"
I've tried explaining "my take" of what the Father is doing in my life, in and through Jesus Christ of Nazareth!
What "name" or denomination would you put on it?
A "handle" I used to refer to this "strange act of God" was:
Jesus-version 2.0.
Isaiah 28:21
For the Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
NayborBear
Active Member
No! I can't! Can you explain to me what became of the "Righteous Indignation" Jesus used in "cleaning out the Temple of God?"
NayborBear
Active Member
I hear: "Unseen/Spiritual Warfare!"
Do you hear or see any form of "Righteous Indignation" that when threatened with extinction "Crosses Over" from Unseen to Seen?
Perhaps? An Emotional road one only travels when is comes to disciplining their children?
Hmm!
Kinda make one wonder How God uses His Righteous Indignation doesn't it?
Or, perhaps He lost it over millennia?
“Theodoret, writing his own version of Church history, also includes the account of Bishop James of Nisibis, who inspired the army against the Persians in the fourth century by calling down the judgment of God on the approaching heathen. The pestilence that followed was directly attributed to the hand of God, and included mosquitoes and gnats to upset horses and elephants on which the enemy was traveling. He writes of the Bishop with a stirring sense of reverence:
’For that holy man, through prayer, filled with valor both the troops and the rest of the townsfolk, and built the walls, withstood the engines, and beat off the advancing foe. And all this he did without approaching the walls, but by beseeching the Lord of all within the church. … Jacobus [mounted] the wall to see the barbarians and to let fly at them the darts of his curse. So the divine man consented and climbed up into a tower but when he saw the innumerable host he discharged no other curse than to that mosquitoes and gnats might be sent forth upon them, so that by means of these tiny animals they might learn the might of the Protector of the Romans. On his prayer followed clouds of mosquitoes and gnats, they filled the hollow trunks of the elephants, and the ears and nostrils of horses and other animals. Finding the attack of these little creatures past endurance they broke their bridles, unseated their riders and threw the ranks into confusion. The Persians abandoned their camp and fled head-long. So the wretched prince learned by a slight and kindly chastisement the power of the God who protects the pious, and marched his army home again, reaping for all the harvest of the siege not triumph but digrace.‘“
(Christian Jihad, pp. 57-58)
The Bishop wasn’t ”armed, ready to kill” but he defended himself and the town, even the Roman army, from an attacking Persian army by calling upon God to defend them with insects. He didn’t use the weapons of the world. He had no sword in his hand. He didn’t kill his enemies.
@Wrangler and his concealed identity church tell us that men like the Bishop are “disobedient,” cowards,” and “man in form but not substance”. It’s a false narrative.
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And why can’t you? You can’t because the Apostles obeyed the teaching and example set by Jesus. They didn’t kill their enemies.
Jesus drove the sellers and the animals out of the temple with a whip. I addressed it in this thread yesterday.
That’s what you should hear. Physical warfare is prohibited.
We see obedience to the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles in response to persecution by their enemies. What we don’t see is the followers of Jesus using weapons of the world to defend themselves, nor to attack, those who were persecuting them.
Perhaps? An Emotional road one only travels when is comes to disciplining their children?
Hmm!
Kinda make one wonder How God uses His Righteous Indignation doesn't it?
Or, perhaps He lost it over millennia?
The Jews were a conquered people and Caesar was the leader of the enemy occupying force. Jesus was asked about whether or not the Jews should pay taxes imposed by the enemy. The answer was yes.
If Caesar had demanded Jesus and his fellow Jews to arm themselves and kill Caesar’s enemies - the Jews were themselves Caesar’s enemies - giving to Caesar what he demanded would be absurd; certainly a demand like that would not be obeyed.
The church he attends has a name, a physical street address, a structure where they meet, publications, a website, a statement of faith, etc.
He doesn’t want you, me, or anyone else here to have that information.
I can’t tell from what you’ve written if you have what he has (see above) or not.
“Emperor Constantine hearkens back to the Old Testament armies, which operated as a killing force for God’s purposes. This must be noted as significant in developing an argument that would be taken up to justify the First Crusade. Moses, Joshua, and Gideon had all shed blood as warriors for God. Note Constantine’s justification for the Old Testament warfare, and by proxy, his war to unite the Roman Empire under him:
’By these not the slaughter of animals alone, but the sacrifice of human victims, and the pollutions of an accursed worship, had been devised: as for example, by the laws of Assyria and Egypt the lives of innocent men were offered up in images of brass or earth.’
The purpose, in Emperor Constantine’s rationale was clear: War for the purpose of defending the innocent, even if it means the slaughter of the enemy, is not only honorable and virtuous, but also God-ordained. Constantine, as Pope Urban II later, ignores the moral implications of the teachings of Jesus Christ and simply uses Old Testament anecdotal evidence to justify the ‘warring church.’”
(Christian Jihad, pp. 60-61)
“Ignores the moral implications of the teachings of Jesus.“
That’s how we got from the pacifism of the early Christian churches to the militarism of the later “warring church.”
’By these not the slaughter of animals alone, but the sacrifice of human victims, and the pollutions of an accursed worship, had been devised: as for example, by the laws of Assyria and Egypt the lives of innocent men were offered up in images of brass or earth.’
The purpose, in Emperor Constantine’s rationale was clear: War for the purpose of defending the innocent, even if it means the slaughter of the enemy, is not only honorable and virtuous, but also God-ordained. Constantine, as Pope Urban II later, ignores the moral implications of the teachings of Jesus Christ and simply uses Old Testament anecdotal evidence to justify the ‘warring church.’”
(Christian Jihad, pp. 60-61)
“Ignores the moral implications of the teachings of Jesus.“
That’s how we got from the pacifism of the early Christian churches to the militarism of the later “warring church.”
“As Emperor Constantine restored order to the Empire - and gave complicit authority to the Christian church - the bishops, theologians and authors became emboldened to an almost eschatological and millennial hope for a temporal peace under the direction of God. This coalition of church and state, in both legislative and militaristic peace, carried serious implications for the formerly pacifistic Christian community.”
(Christian Jihad, p. 61)
Pausing briefly here to point out to my readers that @Wrangler and his concealed identity church insist, against these Christian authors, that there was no “pacifistic Christian community” - ”You are not following Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill.”
Christian / Church history is clearly on the side of the Christian authors, not on the side of Wrangler and his church. Please read the history for yourself.
Returning now to Caner and Caner,
“Would the church now be complicit in warfare and defense? Would bishops preside at executions? The Christian leaders certainly seemed prepared to unite with the state, following centuries of antagonism. As Bainton notes, ‘to the confession of one faith, one lord, and one baptism could now be added that of one empire and one emperor.’”
(Ibid.)
(Christian Jihad, p. 61)
Pausing briefly here to point out to my readers that @Wrangler and his concealed identity church insist, against these Christian authors, that there was no “pacifistic Christian community” - ”You are not following Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill.”
Christian / Church history is clearly on the side of the Christian authors, not on the side of Wrangler and his church. Please read the history for yourself.
Returning now to Caner and Caner,
“Would the church now be complicit in warfare and defense? Would bishops preside at executions? The Christian leaders certainly seemed prepared to unite with the state, following centuries of antagonism. As Bainton notes, ‘to the confession of one faith, one lord, and one baptism could now be added that of one empire and one emperor.’”
(Ibid.)
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