Reason for The Crusades explained

[GodsGrace]

The main motive for the crusades in Palestine were to take back Jerusalem for Christianity. Why would that be necessary?

Oh.
Because Islam was conquering that whole area and moving into Europe.
Signs of it are still visible in Spain, where beautiful bldgs and churches are Islamic in design.

 

[Debp]

Oh.
Because Islam was conquering that whole area and moving into Europe.
Signs of it are still visible in Spain, where beautiful bldgs and churches are Islamic in design.

After Spain the Muslims went into France. That is when the Crusades started. Elsewise they would have conquered all of Europe.

 

[Matthias]

Amen. It will take divine intervention to stop the warring madness.

 

[Wrangler]

And the final “war of the great day of Jehovah” is not fought by us.

But that final war is not the war we are talking about is it? When I have more time, I see if you answered my questions about Christ, Christians being Christian and Christian nations, starting with the Roman Empire and Joan of Ark.

I was thinking about the beginning. In Genesis, we are given dominion. Your position implies this gift doesn't apply to Christians.

 

[GodsGrace]

Two things. First, the Celtic church in Britain, (the Middle East, and later elsewhere ask through Asia), which began through the gospel being carried there by the (Celtic) Galatians in the first century, was a powerful Christian force in Britain for over a 1000 years, sending missionaries into Europe for centuries. The Celtic church's greatest foe was the Catholic Church, which promoted and arranged marriages between Catholic princes and the daughters of Celtic leaders creating compromise and political confusion which affected true practice. Demands from such as Augustine for the Celtic church to submit to Papal authority was accompanied with threats of war. Those threats were carried forward with devastating results to the Celtic way of life.

I don't know too much about the Celtic religion...although, of course, what you've posted is correct.
The CC wanted to maintain its superiority - mostly for political reasons...which is why I stated that after 300 or 400 the CC became somewhat corrupt and too political.

Augustine is not a favored church father/doctor of mine.
He caused problems that are still plaguing us today, both with calvinism and with
the assumed necessity for infant baptism in the CC (although they no longer state that an unbaptized infant is going to hell). Probably much more I'm not familiar with.

Second, one doesn't have to believe in the trinity to believe Jesus is the Son of God and therefore divine, in fact, His Sonship is the greatest evidence to His divinity. You don't need the 3 in 1 formula and extraneous complicated and associated doctrinal presumptions and compulsion to accept in order to believe in the Father and the Son.

Don't want to derail.
What about the Holy Spirit?
If Jesus is not God (as many claim) WHO is He?
If He IS God and we don't have the Trinity...HOW is His divinity explained?
I'm sorry you didn't comment in the thread I had started which is now coming to an end.

Christianity as a general system of belief and practice may have been relatively impartial. The same could not possibly be said for Catholicism.

Catholicism was the only church and the only church that protected the teachings of the NT.
Until it became politically inclined. I'd say the 400s and onward.
In Italy it still had a lot of power in the 1800's.
(but we're making up for it now --- Italy is practically an atheist country).

 

[GodsGrace]

After Spain the Muslims went into France. That is when the Crusades started. Elsewise they would have conquered all of Europe.

Yes Ma'am.
The Crusades stopped Islam from invading and conquering all of Europe.
But some hate the CC so much, they cannot see through their hatred.
Although, yes, it must be said (as I think I already did) that human mistakes were made.
Give man power and he'll mess it up every time.

 

[GodsGrace]

Amen. It will take divine intervention to stop the warring madness.

I very much hate war as much as you do.
But here's the problem Matthias...
BOTH SIDES have to hate war.

If only ONE SIDE hates war...they will be at the mercy of the war-mongers.

I do NOT want to be at the mercy of MAN.
Man is damaged by the sin nature and cannot be trusted.

Have you ever read Lord of the Flies?
If not...read it.

 

[Brakelite]

Oh.
Because Islam was conquering that whole area and moving into Europe.
Signs of it are still visible in Spain, where beautiful bldgs and churches are Islamic in design.

Actually, that is an interesting misunderstanding. The architecture so prominent in Muslim mosques etc, particularly the domed ceilings, were originally Christian, as seen in the "lost/dead cities of Syria" from Christian era long before Islam came on the scene.

https://www.perplexity.ai/search/lost-cities-of-syria-k_JfGWp0S.K.BC4wxrRz3A

 

[GodsGrace]

Actually, that is an interesting misunderstanding. The architecture so prominent in Muslim mosques etc, particularly the domed ceilings, were originally Christian, as seen in the "lost/dead cities of Syria" from Christian era long before Islam came on the scene.

https://www.perplexity.ai/search/lost-cities-of-syria-k_JfGWp0S.K.BC4wxrRz3A

Domed ceilings are of the Christian era.
Witness the Pantheon in Rome.

The buildings I'M speaking about were built by the Islamic invaders and has nothing to do with domed ceilings.

There's quite a difference Brakelite.




Pantheon


Alcazar of Sevilla

 

[GodsGrace]

Actually, that is an interesting misunderstanding. The architecture so prominent in Muslim mosques etc, particularly the domed ceilings, were originally Christian, as seen in the "lost/dead cities of Syria" from Christian era long before Islam came on the scene.

https://www.perplexity.ai/search/lost-cities-of-syria-k_JfGWp0S.K.BC4wxrRz3A

PS
Architecture aside...
Islam would have invaded all of Europe were it not for the Crusades.
This is simple history.

 

[Brakelite]

PS
Architecture aside...
Islam would have invaded all of Europe were it not for the Crusades.
This is simple history.

Hasn't changed much though has it. Europe is now as near to an Islamic state as one could presently imagine. The irony... Christian (so called Western civilization) Europe made it possible.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hasn't changed much though has it. Europe is now as near to an Islamic state as one could presently imagine. The irony... Christian (so called Western civilization) Europe made it possible.

Yes sir.
England is done for.
I don't see how it could regress/go back to how it was just 10 or 15 years ago.

Germany is close.
France is trying, but we'll see.
Italy is not as bad but it also is having an effect.

Christians want to be pacifists...
but Muslims do not.

 

[Matthias]

 

[Matthias]

“Swords” are the weapons of the world.

The apostles, it has been suggested, used swords to kill an unknown number of people. They didn’t. Listen to, and believe, Paul.

 

[Chihuahua]

I do not see anyone here suggesting the apostles killed anyone. Peter did have a sword and used it.

 

[Matthias]

I do not see anyone here suggesting the apostles killed anyone.

Then you need to review the thread again, because someone did and you missed it.

Peter did have a sword and used it.

And Jesus rebuked him for using it.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I believe He would prefer they not do so or anyone regardless of faith. That does not exclude the existence of a just war between one nation that has Christians and another. What is preferred is not necessarily plausible.

Jesus is called the “Prince of Peace” for a reason.....he never sanctioned violence, but in his famous Sermon on the Mount, he said....

“Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.”

Who are the “meek” who will “inherit the earth”?
Do the meek carry guns or AK47’s or hand grenades? Do they unleash weapons of mass destruction on their fellow humans that include women and children and the elderly? Is there sanction in God’s word for the murder of innocents? Does God sanction wars that are purely political?

How do “the meek inherit the earth” if everyone goes to heaven?

“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.”

Who are the “peacemakers”? Can we tell the difference between a “peacemaker” and a “peacekeeper”?
Yes...the main difference is that a peacemaker is one who maintains peace with God and their fellow man. You can identify them because they are not armed. They don’t arrive in tanks with guns.

They are to “love their enemies” in the sense of not hating them, because they pose a political threat to the nation we occupy. The world will do what the world under satan has always done...robs us of peace by making war with another nation over political or material gains. How can Christians be a part of that?

You call that a “just war”? There is no such thing among equally evil and greedy people. Propaganda makes it seem like your nation are the “good guys”, when in reality, there are no “good guys” in a world ruled by the devil.....only ‘the lesser of two evils’. You want reality? There it is.

“Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”

Why would Christians be “persecuted for righteousness’ sake”? Because they are seen to be obedient to Christ’s teachings even when everyone else is finding excuses not to be.
If you don’t justify what they justify, they accuse the peacemakers of not being patriotic in joining them in their conflicts....erroneously posed as “for God and country” when the two will never meet.
A true Christian cannot be a patriot...they are opposing ideologies.

“Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.” (Matt 5:5, 9-12 ESV)

True Christians are falsely accused of all sorts of things, because they are “no part of the world” and it’s egotism. No nation on earth will ever bring about the peace and security that most people desire. An absence of war is not peace.....peace ones from the heart and if it is the gift of God, nothing can disturb it...not even death.

One could say Jesus wants us to love our enemies which never got into the context of nations at war. I can't hug and tickle Hitler into giving up. You can't bomb Japan with flowers and chocolates.

This oversimplification is not reality, nor is the opposite of that a solution to peace. It never has been....no war has ended war....it recurrs with monotonous regularity because humans cannot see past their political programming. The killing never stops.....the lives taken in war are celebrated as national heros.....but the fact remains, no one can replace those who gave their lives....their absence left a hole that can never be filled. What did they die for in reality? National pride gave them a place in a cemetery....but it never ended war. And those who came home permanently damaged are often left to fend for themselves..homeless and without hope.....so much for national pride. Used and thrown away.

Should we use diplomacy and avoid war? Absolutely. Jesus wants us to welcome the stranger. Does that mean we should let anyone immigrate and provide them social welfare? The principles are good and should be the basis of decisions, not greed or hate.

Your use of the word “we” shows up the problem......Christians are not part of “we”. As citizens of God’s Kingdom, we are not authorised to hold dual citizenship.

We are to be “no part of the world” (John 17:16; John 18:36) which means that we are “in the world” like Jesus was , but we are not included in the political “we”....It’s “them” and “us”. There is to be a complete separation and an established neutrality that does not allow us to take sides in any political actions or decisions. Even voting for a political party means that you have to share responsibility for what they do in office, since you helped to put them there. How many of them have ever been successful in bringing about the change that people want? Where is your country headed?...same place as all the others...downhill.

What we owe our governments is to obey their laws and pay our taxes.....but we are not obligated to break God’s laws if our governments tell us to kill for them. The Bible principle that Jesus taught is...“You cannot slave for two masters”.

Did the Crusades end war, or prevent Islamic infiltration into the rest of the world? Not in my country or any other. Do you understand why?

 

[Chihuahua]

Jesus is called the “Prince of Peace” for a reason.....he never sanctioned violence, but in his famous Sermon on the Mount, he said....

“Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.”

Who are the “meek” who will “inherit the earth”?
Do the meek carry guns or AK47’s or hand grenades? Do they unleash weapons of mass destruction on their fellow humans that include women and children and the elderly? Is there sanction in God’s word for the murder of innocents? Does God sanction wars that are purely political?

No, God does not sanction political wars. That is why wars can be called just wars. Jesus did not sanction violence, it should only be a necessary and last resort.

How do “the meek inherit the earth” if everyone goes to heaven?

“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.”

Who are the “peacemakers”? Can we tell the difference between a “peacemaker” and a “peacekeeper”?
Yes...the main difference is that a peacemaker is one who maintains peace with God and their fellow man. You can identify them because they are not armed. They don’t arrive in tanks with guns.

If a person is stupid enough to go into a warzone unarmed, good luck to them. It will really sway warlords and pirates,.

They are to “love their enemies” in the sense of not hating them, because they pose a political threat to the nation we occupy. The world will do what the world under satan has always done...robs us of peace by making war with another nation over political or material gains. How can Christians be a part of that?

You call that a “just war”? There is no such thing among equally evil and greedy people. Propaganda makes it seem like your nation are the “good guys”, when in reality, there are no “good guys” in a world ruled by the devil.....only ‘the lesser of two evils’. You want reality? There it is.

A just war is a just war. An unjust war is an unjust war. There are two kinds.

“Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”

Why would Christians be “persecuted for righteousness’ sake”? Because they are seen to be obedient to Christ’s teachings even when everyone else is finding excuses not to be.
If you don’t justify what they justify, they accuse the peacemakers of not being patriotic in joining them in their conflicts....erroneously posed as “for God and country” when the two will never meet.
A true Christian cannot be a patriot...they are opposing ideologies.

If you mean blindly following orders in an unjust war, yes. You seem to have some trouble with this. I guess you think I assume all wars of my country must be just. You have no basis for that assumption.

“Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.” (Matt 5:5, 9-12 ESV)

True Christians are falsely accused of all sorts of things, because they are “no part of the world” and it’s egotism. No nation on earth will ever bring about the peace and security that most people desire. An absence of war is not peace.....peace ones from the heart and if it is the gift of God, nothing can disturb it...not even death.

Sure.

This oversimplification is not reality, nor is the opposite of that a solution to peace. It never has been....no war has ended war....it recurrs with monotonous regularity because humans cannot see past their political programming. The killing never stops.....the lives taken in war are celebrated as national heros.....but the fact remains, no one can replace those who gave their lives....their absence left a hole that can never be filled. What did they die for in reality? National pride gave them a place in a cemetery....but it never ended war. And those who came home permanently damaged are often left to fend for themselves..homeless and without hope.....so much for national pride. Used and thrown away.

Okay - you are way off from my approval of just wars.

Your use of the word “we” shows up the problem......Christians are not part of “we”. As citizens of God’s Kingdom, we are not authorised to hold dual citizenship.

We are to be “no part of the world” (John 17:16; John 18:36) which means that we are “in the world” like Jesus was , but we are not included in the political “we”....It’s “them” and “us”. There is to be a complete separation and an established neutrality that does not allow us to take sides in any political actions or decisions. Even voting for a political party means that you have to share responsibility for what they do in office, since you helped to put them there. How many of them have ever been successful in bringing about the change that people want? Where is your country headed?...same place as all the others...downhill.

What we own our governments is to obey their laws and pay our taxes.....but we are not obligated to break God’s laws if our governments tell us to kill for them. The Bible principle that Jesus taught is...“You cannot slave for two masters”.

Did the Crusades end war, or prevent Islamic infiltration into the rest of the world? Not in my country or any other. Do you understand why?

This is a strawman as I did not say anything about wars ending all wars.

 

[Debp]

England is done for.
I don't see how it could regress/go back to how it was just 10 or 15 years ago.

A lot of British are going back to church due to the Islamification of the UK. Hopefully this will lead to a true saving faith in Christ.

There is a big Christmas carol celebration planned for December 13th in Central London.

Brief video.

 

[Aunty Jane]

No, God does not sanction political wars. That is why wars can be called just wars. Jesus did not sanction violence, it should only be a necessary and last resort.

I give up...who called any war “just”?...and in whose opinion are they “just”?

Who determines the “necessity” of a political war in a world we were told to be “no pat of”?

The whole point was....no political war is the business of Christians.....let the world do what the world will do....if God allows it, then it is part of his purpose in giving satan world rulership in the first place. (Luke 4:5-7) He did not tell us to interfere, just as Jesus demonstrated in Israel...he avoided all political issues, even on one occasion hastily exiting the scene when people wanted to make him King.....he was a great candidate, but he was never going to be that kind of king, in this kind of world. He is the King of God’s Kingdom, not man’s.

I must admit, I have had many posters here misunderstand or misinterpret my writings, but if there was a gold medal for doing so, you’d be the winner....you missed the point every time.

If a person is stupid enough to go into a warzone unarmed, good luck to them. It will really sway warlords and pirates,.

Again you misunderstand....the concept of a “peacekeeper” in today’s world is to threaten those who want to make war, with weapons. Who today enter war zones unarmed? You got that right at least...but Christians who live in war zones do what Christ directed the Christians to do when the Romans threatened to destroy Jerusalem...he told them to get out of there and flee to the mountains....to a place of safety.

Jesus himself said that he had legions of angels to summon if he needed to.....but he never did. The Christians could have saved Jerusalem if God had wanted it saved. But Jesus had already foretold its destruction. No “just war” was necessary.

A just war is a just war. An unjust war is an unjust war. There are two kinds.

The only “just war” is the one God is fighting for....the ones Israel fought in defence of their God-given land.
If they tried to fight a war without his sanction, they lost.

Israel were the defenders, not the aggressors....and because their land was gifted to them by God, he backed them up. Whose land today was gifted to them by God? Most were stolen by greedy conquerors with much bloodshed. Does God support thieves and murderers?

If you mean blindly following orders in an unjust war, yes. You seem to have some trouble with this. I guess you think I assume all wars of my country must be just. You have no basis for that assumption.

Since this thread is about the Crusades, let’s take that as an example..
Who were the contenders in these bloody skirmishes?
Who sent the Crusaders in with their “Christian cross” on their shields?.....telling their armies that God was with them, whilst the enemy was telling their soldiers the very same thing.....propaganda is not a new invention. It’s the ‘good guys verses the bad guys’ scenario but in God’s eyes they are all ‘bad guys’ since they are taking human life without his sanction....fighting in wars that have nothing to do with him.

The “Holy Land” was no longer “holy” to God because his people had disrespected his laws and disobeyed his Commandments. He allowed gentile nations to dominate Israel’s inhabitants so that the Jews didn’t even have a military force under the nations that conquered their land.
The final straw was the orchestration of Christ’s murder...the last nail in their coffin.
Today there are three “Abrahamic” faiths fighting for control of a place God has long abandoned.

Now bring that back to more modern times and in the two World Wars of last century, the whole world was involved, meaning that many countries had “Christians” in their military ranks because their church told them that they could fight in “just wars”....(it seems that all wars were “just” in their eyes) even against their own “brothers” in the faith.....no dilemma was ever raised about the Bible’s clear directive to Christ’s disciples...

“If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.” (1 John 4:20-21 ESV)

What if the clergy had done their job and told those soldiers the truth instead of backing up the world and sanctioning what God never did. They even blessed the weapons that were going to kill their own brethren....Whose side did God take in those wars?

Can you love your brother with a gun or a bomb...and do you tell them you love them before or after you have killed them?

Okay - you are way off from my approval of just wars.

I wasn’t aware that wars needed your approval....since there is no such thing in the modern era, and hasn’t since the days of ancient Israel....no war has had God’s sanction. God allows the world to do what it does, under the influence of the god it chooses to serve....it’s not the same God as Jesus served. (2 Cor 4:3-4)

This is a strawman as I did not say anything about wars ending all wars.

How is it a straw man to point out that “we” are not to be any part of “them”.
It’s a “them” and “us” situation, so by joining “them” you separate yourself from the genuine Christians...disobeying Christ’s teachings.

What is the point of all those wars and all that loss of life, if there is no end to war? It’s just a monster, loose in the world who just gets bigger teeth as time goes on......their weapons got huge and nations even paraded them in front of their people to show their superiority......but what about today? The weapons they have developed now could fit in your pocket...just as deadly if not more so....

Are you part of God’s solution...or part of the devil’s evil empire which the true God will soon destroy.

You know the part of the Lord’s Prayer that says...”Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”....what do you think Jesus was teaching us to pray for?