Johann
Well-Known Member
--who did not pre-exist-a mere creature-a "created being"-
Whose eyes are closed, in light of plain Scriptures?
Reasons Jews Reject Jesus
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Whose eyes are closed, in light of plain Scriptures?
Johann
Well-Known Member
Johann
Well-Known Member
You say my eyes are closed-you can show me nowhere in the OT of the pre-existent Christ Jesus? Correct?
Johann
Well-Known Member
Johann
Well-Known Member
Johann
Well-Known Member
Johann
Well-Known Member
What is the notional/ideal exegeses of John 1:1--how is it that you admit the pre-existence of the Logos/Memra-yet at the same time a created being?
Johann
Well-Known Member
So, the pre-existent Jesus/created - was just a concept in the mind of God?
See how ludicrous this sound?
So, in the "let us" accounts in Genesis to whom was YHVH having a conversation with?
1. His mind
2. Angels
3. Jesus
Johann
Well-Known Member
Johann
Well-Known Member
Then show me Scripture references of the pre-existence of Messiah in the OT-since you claim we are using the same references
Theophanies in the Old Testament
Did God appear in human form before His incarnation? Why then would He have to be born? Is the Angel of the Lord actually Jesus? Tim Chaffey, AiG–U.S., explains.
answersingenesis.org
The Pre-Incarnate Son
November 27, 2017by Michael J. Svigel
Throughout the Old Testament, we encounter a mysterious figure referred to as “the angel of the LORD” (Genesis 16:7), “the word of the LORD” (15:1 NASB; Jeremiah 1:4 NASB), or even the “presence” of the LORD (Exodus 33:14). This figure sometimes takes human form (Genesis 16:7), comes as a voice from heaven (22:11), or appears as a flame of fire (Exodus 3:2). In these cases, this “angel of the LORD” is the visible and/or audible representative of God, the “spokesperson” of the Trinity. We know from later revelation in Scripture that this person of the Godhead is God the Son.
Though some have identified “the angel of the LORD” as a mere created, angelic being sent by God as an emissary or a stand-in, Scripture identifies this figure with the divine name Yahweh (LORD) or God (Exodus 3:2–6; Judges 6:14). We shouldn’t let the English translation of “angel” confuse us. The Hebrew word used here, malach, simply means “messenger,” so “messenger of Yahweh” in this sense means the member of the Godhead whose role is to reveal God’s messages to people.
In the New Testament, when John described Jesus as “the Word” of God, who is distinct from God the Father but also fully God (John 1:1–3), the apostle was likely drawing on the Old Testament figure of “the angel of the LORD” and “word of the LORD.” The conclusion, therefore, is that this mysterious figure of the Old Testament is none other than Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
A1. The Preincarnate Son of God | Bible.org
[Author’s note: The series of studies in Christology beginning in this issue is planned to present the whole doctrine of Christ including His Person and His work from eternity past to eternity future. Without undue development of any one theme, the series is intended to include every important...
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Johann
Well-Known Member
METATRON
Did you know that according to the book of the Zohar and the writings of the Sages, Metatron1, described as the prince of the world and power of God, has the characteristics of God himself? He is the highest being in the celestial hierarchy. Just like God himself, he too sits on God’s throne of glory. And on his head he wears the crown through which the universe was created. His attire is God’s light and is called “the little God”. Professor Idel, head of the department in Jewish thought at Hebrew University describes Metatron’s nature and position as “Half man, half God… he fixes the problem of human sin and fulfills humans actual purpose.”
The book of the Zohar continues describing the character and nature of Metatron as one carrying the image of God, representing God to his creation. He’s described as the angel of the covenant, as the son of God. As the small God, as God’s firstborn. As mediator to God. As overseer to the tree of life, as the King’s representative, responsible for the whole creation, and more.
It’s interesting enough, that whoever reads the NT will discover that Jesus the Messiah is defined in the exact same way. But the NT was written a long time before the Zohar and the rest of the Sages’ literature was written.
Even though the Sages did understand that God does reveal himself to humanity, they chose not to recognize Jesus, the God-sent Messiah. And therefore, they made for themselves a substitute for him: Metatron.
THE IDEA THAT GOD REVEALS HIMSELF TO HUMANITY IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN IS BASED ON THE JEWISH SCRIPTURES
The OT is full of examples and prophecies that the promised Messiah will be God himself. In his love he’ll reveal himself to us, suffer with and for us. He will die and bring a perfect sacrifice for our sins. We’ve created videos on the topic of the suffering Messiah.
Now we’d like to go through some examples to show that the God of the OT does reveal himself in the likeness of men, coming as the Messiah.Let’s start with Genesis 3.
“And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
This means that Adam and Eve are talking to and are physically with God who’s walking in the Garden.
In Genesis 18 we read about Abraham our father.
“And the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth and said, “O Lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant.” Genesis 18:1-3
Further into the chapter, in verse 22, the text says explicitly:
“So the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD.”
While the angels are leaving God stayed with Abraham.
“YHWH”, THE LORD, HE IS THE ONE WHO APPEARED TO ABRAHAM.
And Abraham indeed identifies one of the angels as God. For this reason he bows before him and invites him to eat with him. The Talmud acknowledges this too. In the tractate Bava Metzia 76 God himself comes to visit Abraham. Rabbi Steinsaltz interprets the passage:
“He came out and saw the Lord, stand in the entrance. He who said: “Lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant.” Let’s continue to read: In verse 13 God, who is eating with Abraham, asks him a question: “The LORD said to Abraham, ‘Why did Sarah laugh…'”
These verses cannot be understood in a different way: One of the three is identified as God himself. And he promises Abraham to come back in a year after a son has been born to Sarah. Sarah hears that and laughs and God answers her. There is no other way in which this chapter can be understood. Abraham, Sarah and God took part in this dinner and conversation, being physically present.
This chapter is pretty amazing. It states explicitly that Abraham and Sarah met God and spoke with him face to face. God appeared to them in human likeness with dust on his feet and all that.
And after Abraham served him butter and milk and beef for sure some of it got caught in his beard, like it happens to Moti. No doubt, if these verses were written in the NT instead of in the OT the rabbis would mock us and call these verses idolatry. And for sure they would laugh and ask us if God gained weight after the dinner. For these are the typical claims with which the rabbis attack the idea that God revealed himself in Jesus the Messiah when he took on flesh. If God appears to Abraham in flesh and blood for several hours what would stop him from taking on flesh in the person of the Messiah for several years?
Let’s continue.
Did you ever hear the term “Messiah King”? The prophecy about the Messiah King is found in Jeremiah 23:
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: ‘The Lord is our righteousness.’” (Jeremiah 23:5-6)
“Branch” is a common term for the Messiah. Jeremiah prophesies that this branch from the line of David will bring salvation to Israel.
AND WHAT WILL BE HIS NAME? THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
In the OT no one except for God himself is called YHWH, (LORD) but here the Messiah receives the name “the LORD our righteousness”. As opposed to names like Daniel (the LORD is my judge) or Elinadav (My LORD is gracious) here, the explicit name of God is mentioned. Y-H-W-H.
To make sure you can’t accuse us of using a missionary-christian interpretation let’s see how the Sages interpreted this passage.
In the Midrash Proverbs section 19 it says:
“Rav Huna says: the 7 names of the Messiah are Ynon, the Lord our righteousness, Branch, Consoler, David, Shilo and Elijah.”
And in Midrash Lamentations 1 the passage is interpreted:
“What is the name of the Messiah King? Rabbi Abba Bar Kahana says: ‘The Lord’ is his name, and this is what they will call him: ‘The Lord our Righteousness’.”
According to Rabbi Johanan bar Nappaha the Messiah will be called by the name of God.
“Rabbi Johanan said: ‘Those three will be called by God’s name: The righteous ones, the Messiah and Jerusalem… the Messiah, as it is written (Jeremiah 23) and this is the name that they will call him: The Lord our Righteousness.
Minor tractate, Soferim 13, Halakha 12:
“We … God our Lord in Elijah the prophet, your servant and in the kingdom of David your Messiah soon he will come and appear to his sons and on his throne will sit no one else and he will give his glory to no other. Because by your holy name you promised him that his lamp will not be put out forever. ‘In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will dwell securely, and this is the name he will be called: the Lord our Righteousness.’ Blessed be you, o Lord, who raises up a horn of salvation for his people Israel.”
Also here, the Messiah is being identified with “The Lord our Righteousness,” referring to Jeremiah 23.
“When they both confessed their deeds Judah was side by side with Ruben. Since: to one who orders his way rightly I will show the salvation of God Judah confessed and therefore inherited the kingdom and from him will come the Messiah that will save Israel as it is written: ‘In his days Judah will be saved.'” (Tzror Hamor, Genesis Vayechi)
The commentator explains that Judah acted rightly since from him the Messiah will come. He bases this on Jeremiah 23, verse 6. In other words, he too sees in this verse a messianic prophecy that predicts that the Messiah will be God.
In ‘Midrash Tehillim’ it says that God calls the Messiah by his name. And what is his name? The answer is “the Lord of Hosts” and the Messiah we will call “and this is the name he will be called: The Lord our righteousness.”
www.oneforisrael.org
Did you know that according to the book of the Zohar and the writings of the Sages, Metatron1, described as the prince of the world and power of God, has the characteristics of God himself? He is the highest being in the celestial hierarchy. Just like God himself, he too sits on God’s throne of glory. And on his head he wears the crown through which the universe was created. His attire is God’s light and is called “the little God”. Professor Idel, head of the department in Jewish thought at Hebrew University describes Metatron’s nature and position as “Half man, half God… he fixes the problem of human sin and fulfills humans actual purpose.”
The book of the Zohar continues describing the character and nature of Metatron as one carrying the image of God, representing God to his creation. He’s described as the angel of the covenant, as the son of God. As the small God, as God’s firstborn. As mediator to God. As overseer to the tree of life, as the King’s representative, responsible for the whole creation, and more.
It’s interesting enough, that whoever reads the NT will discover that Jesus the Messiah is defined in the exact same way. But the NT was written a long time before the Zohar and the rest of the Sages’ literature was written.
Even though the Sages did understand that God does reveal himself to humanity, they chose not to recognize Jesus, the God-sent Messiah. And therefore, they made for themselves a substitute for him: Metatron.
THE IDEA THAT GOD REVEALS HIMSELF TO HUMANITY IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN IS BASED ON THE JEWISH SCRIPTURES
The OT is full of examples and prophecies that the promised Messiah will be God himself. In his love he’ll reveal himself to us, suffer with and for us. He will die and bring a perfect sacrifice for our sins. We’ve created videos on the topic of the suffering Messiah.
Now we’d like to go through some examples to show that the God of the OT does reveal himself in the likeness of men, coming as the Messiah.Let’s start with Genesis 3.
“And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
This means that Adam and Eve are talking to and are physically with God who’s walking in the Garden.
In Genesis 18 we read about Abraham our father.
“And the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth and said, “O Lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant.” Genesis 18:1-3
Further into the chapter, in verse 22, the text says explicitly:
“So the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD.”
While the angels are leaving God stayed with Abraham.
“YHWH”, THE LORD, HE IS THE ONE WHO APPEARED TO ABRAHAM.
And Abraham indeed identifies one of the angels as God. For this reason he bows before him and invites him to eat with him. The Talmud acknowledges this too. In the tractate Bava Metzia 76 God himself comes to visit Abraham. Rabbi Steinsaltz interprets the passage:
“He came out and saw the Lord, stand in the entrance. He who said: “Lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant.” Let’s continue to read: In verse 13 God, who is eating with Abraham, asks him a question: “The LORD said to Abraham, ‘Why did Sarah laugh…'”
These verses cannot be understood in a different way: One of the three is identified as God himself. And he promises Abraham to come back in a year after a son has been born to Sarah. Sarah hears that and laughs and God answers her. There is no other way in which this chapter can be understood. Abraham, Sarah and God took part in this dinner and conversation, being physically present.
This chapter is pretty amazing. It states explicitly that Abraham and Sarah met God and spoke with him face to face. God appeared to them in human likeness with dust on his feet and all that.
And after Abraham served him butter and milk and beef for sure some of it got caught in his beard, like it happens to Moti. No doubt, if these verses were written in the NT instead of in the OT the rabbis would mock us and call these verses idolatry. And for sure they would laugh and ask us if God gained weight after the dinner. For these are the typical claims with which the rabbis attack the idea that God revealed himself in Jesus the Messiah when he took on flesh. If God appears to Abraham in flesh and blood for several hours what would stop him from taking on flesh in the person of the Messiah for several years?
Let’s continue.
Did you ever hear the term “Messiah King”? The prophecy about the Messiah King is found in Jeremiah 23:
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: ‘The Lord is our righteousness.’” (Jeremiah 23:5-6)
“Branch” is a common term for the Messiah. Jeremiah prophesies that this branch from the line of David will bring salvation to Israel.
AND WHAT WILL BE HIS NAME? THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
In the OT no one except for God himself is called YHWH, (LORD) but here the Messiah receives the name “the LORD our righteousness”. As opposed to names like Daniel (the LORD is my judge) or Elinadav (My LORD is gracious) here, the explicit name of God is mentioned. Y-H-W-H.
To make sure you can’t accuse us of using a missionary-christian interpretation let’s see how the Sages interpreted this passage.
In the Midrash Proverbs section 19 it says:
“Rav Huna says: the 7 names of the Messiah are Ynon, the Lord our righteousness, Branch, Consoler, David, Shilo and Elijah.”
And in Midrash Lamentations 1 the passage is interpreted:
“What is the name of the Messiah King? Rabbi Abba Bar Kahana says: ‘The Lord’ is his name, and this is what they will call him: ‘The Lord our Righteousness’.”
According to Rabbi Johanan bar Nappaha the Messiah will be called by the name of God.
“Rabbi Johanan said: ‘Those three will be called by God’s name: The righteous ones, the Messiah and Jerusalem… the Messiah, as it is written (Jeremiah 23) and this is the name that they will call him: The Lord our Righteousness.
Minor tractate, Soferim 13, Halakha 12:
“We … God our Lord in Elijah the prophet, your servant and in the kingdom of David your Messiah soon he will come and appear to his sons and on his throne will sit no one else and he will give his glory to no other. Because by your holy name you promised him that his lamp will not be put out forever. ‘In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will dwell securely, and this is the name he will be called: the Lord our Righteousness.’ Blessed be you, o Lord, who raises up a horn of salvation for his people Israel.”
Also here, the Messiah is being identified with “The Lord our Righteousness,” referring to Jeremiah 23.
“When they both confessed their deeds Judah was side by side with Ruben. Since: to one who orders his way rightly I will show the salvation of God Judah confessed and therefore inherited the kingdom and from him will come the Messiah that will save Israel as it is written: ‘In his days Judah will be saved.'” (Tzror Hamor, Genesis Vayechi)
The commentator explains that Judah acted rightly since from him the Messiah will come. He bases this on Jeremiah 23, verse 6. In other words, he too sees in this verse a messianic prophecy that predicts that the Messiah will be God.
In ‘Midrash Tehillim’ it says that God calls the Messiah by his name. And what is his name? The answer is “the Lord of Hosts” and the Messiah we will call “and this is the name he will be called: The Lord our righteousness.”
Why Messiah must be God! - ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry %
All the biblical reasons why the Messiah must be God Himself - from a Hebraic perspective!!If you agree Jesus is God - PLEASE SHARE!
www.oneforisrael.org
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