Reasons Jews Reject Jesus

[Jim B]

Stop trolling amigo Jim

a) I am not "trolling amigo". b) What business is it of yours if I point out his laziness?

 

[Johann]

a) I am not "trolling amigo". b) What business is it of yours if I point out his laziness?

Yes, you are trolling him, this time I'm reporting you.
You have a good day.

 

[Jim B]

Yes, you are trolling him, this time I'm reporting you.
You have a good day.

Go ahead and report me. I'm putting you on ignore.

 

[Eliyahu613]

To the trenches my friend . JESUS ALONE is our hope and our salvation , HE ALONE is who we shall point too .
Every word o truth in the holy scriptures is GOOD for our soul . Now lift those hands up my friend , ITS LORD PRAISINGTIME .

Bs"d

You put your hope on JC.

I put my hope on the one and only true God Y-H-W-H who is one.

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5

 

[Eliyahu613]

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3. The "we" versus "he" passages:

"throughout Isaiah whenever the pronouns 'we', 'our', or 'us' are introduced abruptly, as in 53:1ff. (that is, without an explicit identification of the speakers, as in 2:3; 3:6; 4:1; etc.), it is always the prophet speaking on behalf of the people of Israel with whom he identifies (1:9f; 16.6; 24.26; 33.2, 20; 42.24; 59:9-12; 63:15-19; 64:3-11; etc.).

Accordingly, if the 'we' or 'us' in 53:1ff is the prophet speaking on behalf of Israel, then the 'he' or 'him' of these same verses cannot also be a reference to Israel." [HI:JSS53:110]

Bs"d

Nobody in his right mind will deny that Isaiah 42 speaks about Israel, and that the servant there is Israel, because that is plainly mentioned several times in the text.

However, Isaiah addresses that servant with different pronouns, even in the same sentence:

"Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? Did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? For they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law. Therefore He hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart."

We see here that Isaiah, clearly speaking about the Jewish people, jumps in this short piece of text from "we" to "they" to "he". Three different incompatible pronouns, both singular and plural, all for the Jewish people.

That doesn't mean we're dealing here with three different subjects, that's just the writing style of Isaiah, and the same goes for Isaiah 53.

Nobody will deny that Isaiah 42 speaks about Israel, and that the servant there is Israel, because that is plainly mentioned several times in the text.

However, Isaiah addresses that servant with different pronouns, even in the same sentence:

"Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? Did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? For they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law. Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart."

We see here that Isaiah, clearly speaking about the Jewish people, jumps in this short piece of text from "we" to "they" to "he". Three different incompatible pronouns, all for the Jewish people.

That doesn't mean we're dealing here with three different subjects, that's just the writing style of Isaiah, and the same goes for Isaiah 53.
The facts have not changed. The facts are that Christians don't have any proof from the book of Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach that Isaiah 53 should speak about the messiah.

The fact remains that Israel is many times called "the servant of God". See here for examples: Isaiah 53

The fact remains that the context of Isaiah 53 speaks about Israel.

The fact remains that when you fill in the people of Israel for the servant, then you get the concept that Israel is being punished for the sins of Israel. That is a simple logical concept which is found all through the Tanach.

When you want to say the the servant is God/messiah, then you get the concept that God is punished for the sins of Israel, an illogical concept which is nowhere to be found in the Tanach.

The truth is really not hard to see.

 

[Johann]

Bs"d

Nobody in his right mind will deny that Isaiah 42 speaks about Israel, and that the servant there is Israel, because that is plainly mentioned several times in the text.

However, Isaiah addresses that servant with different pronouns, even in the same sentence:

"Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? Did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? For they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law. Therefore He hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart."

We see here that Isaiah, clearly speaking about the Jewish people, jumps in this short piece of text from "we" to "they" to "he". Three different incompatible pronouns, both singular and plural, all for the Jewish people.

That doesn't mean we're dealing here with three different subjects, that's just the writing style of Isaiah, and the same goes for Isaiah 53.

Nobody will deny that Isaiah 42 speaks about Israel, and that the servant there is Israel, because that is plainly mentioned several times in the text.

However, Isaiah addresses that servant with different pronouns, even in the same sentence:

"Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? Did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? For they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law. Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart."

We see here that Isaiah, clearly speaking about the Jewish people, jumps in this short piece of text from "we" to "they" to "he". Three different incompatible pronouns, all for the Jewish people.

That doesn't mean we're dealing here with three different subjects, that's just the writing style of Isaiah, and the same goes for Isaiah 53.
The facts have not changed. The facts are that Christians don't have any proof from the book of Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach that Isaiah 53 should speak about the messiah.

The fact remains that Israel is many times called "the servant of God". See here for examples: Isaiah 53

The fact remains that the context of Isaiah 53 speaks about Israel.

The fact remains that when you fill in the people of Israel for the servant, then you get the concept that Israel is being punished for the sins of Israel. That is a simple logical concept which is found all through the Tanach.

When you want to say the the servant is God/messiah, then you get the concept that God is punished for the sins of Israel, an illogical concept which is nowhere to be found in the Tanach.

The truth is really not hard to see.

Page 1
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What Adventists Believe About God the Son - Adventist.org

Adventist believe that Jesus is the Son of God. We believe that Jesus died for our sins to make a way for our salvation.

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I have already, in detail-explained the "we-them-he" in Isaiah 53 in the 4 servant songs-using your own resources-which CANNOT be that Israel "died" for the sins of the whole world and thus become our "savior"-see for yourself how idiotic this sounds.

But I'm not saying anything to you that you already KNOW/YADA is the truth-you have rejected the Truth and now speak AGAINST truth.

Thank our great God and Savior Christ Jesus that He is raising up apologists that can thoroughly refute rabbinical writings and "muzzle the ox"-so to speak


Amazing that you count them as dung and turned your back on Christ, the very ONE whom you speak against now.
You have discarded EGW writings-and embraced Talmudic writings.
The very concept-the Israel, a sinful people, "died" for the sins of the whole world-thus becoming our "savior" is a caricature-this you have to realize.

You are correct-"This is not really hard to see"-

 

[Johann]

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52:13 "will prosper" This verb (BDB 968, KB 1328, Hiphil imperfect) has two connotations.

to consider, to give attention to, to ponder ‒ Isa. 41:20; 44:18; Deut. 32:29; Ps. 64:9
to prosper, "to have success" ‒ 1 Sam. 18:15; Isa. 52:13; Jer. 20:11; 23:5
The question is which of these best parallel the series of verbs "high," "lifted," and "greatly exalted." Will the Servant be

listened to
lifted up
Both fit the context of chapters 44-55.

"He will be high and lifted up and greatly exalted" The threefold use of these verbs with similar meaning intensifies the idea.

will be high ‒ BDB 926, KB 1202, Qal imperfect, cf. Isa. 6:1; 57:15
will be lifted up ‒ BDB 669, KB 724, Niphal perfect (with waw), cf. Isa. 6:1; 33:10; 57:15
will be greatly exalted ‒ BDB 146, KB 170, Qal perfect (with waw), cf. Isa. 5:16
Special Topic: Lifted Up

52:14
NASB, NKJV, LXX   "were astonished at you"
NRSV   "were astonished at him"
NJB   "were aghast at him"
JPSOA   "were appalled at him"
REB   "recoil at the sight of him"
Peshitta   "amazed at him"
NET   "were horrified by the sight of you"
The MT has "you," עליך (also LXX), but "him," עליו is read by the Targums and some Syriac versions. The UBS Text Project, p. 142, gives "you" a B rating, p. 142.

There is a fluidity between the corporate focus ("you") and the individual ("him") in the Servant Songs. The individual ideal Israelite paid the price for corporate Israel (cf. Isa. 53:8) as well as corporate humanity (cf. Gen. 3:15)!

"My people" This is not in the Masoretic Hebrew text. The Servant is not identified with corporate Israel but an individual, an ideal Israelite (i.e., Messiah.
"His appearance was marred more than any man,

And His form more than the sons of men"

The term "marred" (BDB 1008, KB 644) is found only here. BDB has "disfigurement of face." KB has "ugly in form," from an Arabic root.

The same root consonants are used in Lev. 22:25 for "corruption."

The same root consonanta are used in Ezek. 9:1 for "destruction."

Jesus was beaten very badly, almost unrecognizable, first by the Sanhedrin and then by the Roman soldiers. The rabbis used this verse to say that the Messiah will have leprosy.

52:15
NASB, NKJV   "sprinkle"
NRSV, JPSOA, NET   "startle"
NJB, LXX   "astonished"
Peshitta   "purify"
The MT (NASB) has a sacrificial term (BDB 633 I, KB 683, Hiphil imperfect, cf. Exod. 29:21: Lev. 4:6,17; 5:8; 6:27; 8:11,30; 14:7,16,27,51; 16:14,15,19; Num. 8:7; 19:4,18,19,21). It can also mean "spattered" (cf. Lev. 6:27; 2 Kgs. 9:33; Isa. 63:3). Many modern translations have "startle" (BDB 633 II, "cause to leap"), which comes from an Arabic root. The UBS Text Project, p. 142, gives the MT a "B" rating (some doubt).

The question is "What do the kings hear and see?"

a marred man (Isa. 52:14; 53:5)
a high, lifted up, and greatly exalted man (Isa. 52:13)
Does the verb of Isa. 52:15a mean:

startle with joy
startle with shock
sprinkled as a sacrifice (cf. Isa. 53:4-5,10)

 

[Johann]

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53:1 "Who has believed our message" The speaker (plural) is uncertain, but possibly

the faithful Jewish remnant
the prophets
It is obvious that very few understood the concept of a suffering Messiah (cf. John 12:38; Rom. 10:16)! However, one day the kings of the earth will understand (cf. Isa. 52:15 and Phil. 2:6-11)!

For "believed" (BDB 52, KB 63, Hiphil perfect)

"arm of the Lord" This is an anthropomorphic phrase (cf. Isa. 51:9; 52:9,10; Deut. 5:15) for YHWH's actions, here involving the ministry of the Servant.



53:2 "like a tender shoot" This (BDB 413) refers to His inconspicuous beginnings. It has some connotative relationship with the Messianic term "Branch" (BDB 666, cf. Isa. 4:2; 11:1,10). Both are used together in Isa. 11:1.



"He has no stately form or majesty

That we should look upon Him"

Jesus was not physically unusual or attractive. He did not stand out in a crowd in any way (i.e., He could melt into the crowd, cf. John 8:59; 12:36).

53:3 "He was despised" This verb (BDB 102, KB 117, Niphal participle) is used as a title, "The Despised One" in Isa. 49:7. The Qal passive participle is used in Ps. 22:6, which Christians believe describes Jesus' crucifixion (cf. Matt. 27:35,39,43,46; Mark 15:29,34; Luke 23:34; John 19:24; 20:25).

So many of the texts in this section of Isaiah are used in the NT. Isaiah clearly reveals God's redemptive plan for all humans.

The last two lines of Isa. 53:3 have been interpreted in several ways.

some of the rabbis said the Messiah would have leprosy (cf. Isa. 53:11)
some relate it to 52:14 and see it referring to the beatings Jesus received at the hands of Herod's and Pilate's guards
some relate it to Jesus' words in Matt. 26:31; Mark 14:27 (from Zech. 13:7) or John 16:32
"sorrows" This word (BDB 456) can mean

physical pain ‒ Exod. 3:7
emotional pain ‒ Ps. 38:17-18; Jer. 45:3
It is used in this context (53:13-14) of the Servant suffering on behalf of Israel (cf. Isa. 53:8) and all mankind (cf. Isa. 53:6).

53:4 "griefs" The word literally means "sickness" (BDB 318, cf. Deut. 28:59,61), but is used in a much wider sense in Hebrew (Isa. 1:6; 6:10). This speaks of Jesus' substitutionary work (cf. Mark 10:45; 2 Cor. 5:21).

Many have tried to interpret this strophe and Isa. 53:5d as teaching that Jesus' death dealt with believers' sins and sicknesses, but this is to misinterpret the parallelism (cf. Ps. 103:3). "Sickness" is a Hebrew idiom for sin (cf. Isa. 1:5-6; Ps. 103:3). My favorite charismatic author, Gordon Fee, has written a powerful booklet on this issue entitled The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospels.



"bore. . .carried" These two verbs are parallel.

bore ‒ BDB 669, KB 724, Qal perfect, used of bearing one's guilt, Gen. 4:13; Lev. 5:1,17; 7:18; Num. 5:31; 14:34; Ezek. 14:10; 44:12, but it is also used of someone or some animal bearing another's guilt, cf. Lev. 10:17; 16:22; Num. 14:33; Ezek. 4:4,5,6 and of the suffering Servant's redemptive ministry in Isa. 53:4
carried ‒ BDB 687, KB 741, Qal perfect; this is literally "bear a heavy load," it is used of the Servant in Isa. 53:4 and Isa. 53:11 (Qal imperfect)
Notice the series of verbs in Isa. 53:4-6 of what YHWH did to the Servant for humanity's benefit.

smitten by God, Isa. 53:4 ‒ BDB 645, KB 697, Hophal participle
afflicted (by God), Isa. 53:4 ‒ BDB 776, KB 853, Pual participle
pierced through for our transgressions, Isa. 53:5 ‒ BDB 319, KB 320, Poal participle
crushed for our iniquities, Isa. 53:5 ‒ BDB 193, KB 221, Pual participle
the chastening for our well being (no verb) upon Him, Isa. 53:5
by His scourging we are healed, Isa. 53:5
This is the textual foundation for the doctrine of the vicarious, substitutionary atonement.

"Smitten of God" It was God's will that Jesus die (cf. Isa. 53:10; John 3:16; Mark 10:45; 2 Cor. 5:21). Jesus' trial and death were not accidents or mistakes, but the plan of God (cf. Acts 2:23; 3:18; 4:28; 1 Pet. 1:20).

53:5 "pierced. . .crushed" As "bore" and "carried" in Isa. 53:4 were parallel, so too, these verbs.

pierced ‒ BDB 319, KB 320, Poal participle usually by a sword in battle, but not here. The same root means "polluted" for mankind's purification and forgiveness.
crushed ‒ BDB 193, KB 221, Pual participle; this verb is used several times in Isaiah
Isa. 57:15 ‒ Niphal participle, "the heart of the contrite"
Isa. 3:15 ‒ Piel imperfect, "crushing My people"
Isa. 19:10; 53:5 ‒ Pual participle, "to be crushed"
Isa. 53:10 ‒ Piel infinitive construct, "to crush"
It denotes one who is humbled. In this context by YHWH Himself for the greater good of all mankind.

53:6 This is the OT counterpart to Rom. 3:9-18,23; 5:12,15,18; 11:32; Gal. 3:22. This shows the terrible development of the Fall of Genesis 3 (cf. Gen. 6:5,11-12; Ps. 14:3; 143:2).

You are noticed @amigo de christo -thank you for your participation.

 

[Johann]

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"the iniquity of us all to fall on Him" Jesus died for the sins of the entire world. Everyone is potentially saved by Christ (cf. John 1:29; 3:16-17; 12:47; Rom. 5:18; 1 Tim. 4:10; Titus 2:11; Heb. 2:9; 7:25; 1 John 2:2; 4:14). Only willful unbelief keeps anyone from God.

Some commentators have tried to make a restrictive theological distinction between the "all" [twice] of Isa. 53:6 and "the many" of Isa. 53:11d and 12e. However, the parallelism of Rom. 5:18, "all" and "the many" of Isa. 5:19, clearly shows that they refer to the same group (i.e., fallen humanity made in the image and likeness of YHWH, Gen. 1:26-27).

God desires all humans to be saved ‒ John 4:42, 1 Tim. 2:4; 4:10; 2 Pet. 3:9).

53:6d
NASB, TEV   "fall on"
NKJV, NRSV, REB, Peshitta   "laid on"
NJB   "to bear on"
NET   "to attack"
JPSOA   "visited upon"
LXX   "gave him over to"
The MT has the verb (BDB 803, KB 910, Hiphil perfect), which can mean

cause to light upon (here)
cause one to entreat (KB 910, Hiphil, #2)
interpose (cf. Isa. 53:12, Qal participle)
attack or assail (NET, p. 1269, #10)
NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: ISAIAH 53:7-9
7He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

53:7 "Like a lamb" The sacrificial allusion is significant (cf. John 1:29 and 2 Cor. 5:21).

"He did not open His mouth" This means the Servant did not attempt to defend Himself. There are several allusions to this in Jesus' trials.

Jesus' night trial before Caiaphas ‒ Matt. 26:63; Mark 14:61
Jesus' trial before Pilate ‒ Matt. 27:12-14; Mark 15:5; John 19:9
Jesus before Herod the Tetrarch ‒ Luke 23:9
53:8a This may refer to Jesus' unfair trials.

before the Sanhedrin
before Pilate




53:8d "For the transgression of my people" This phrase shows that the term "Servant" in this context cannot be national Israel. The Servant dies (cf. Isa. 53:8c,d) for Israel.

Here the DSS has "of his people."

This song/poem has several rare and unusual verbals.

Isa. 52:15, "what had not been told" ‒ Pual perfect (BDB 707, KB 765)
Isa. 52:15, "they will understand" ‒ Hithpolel perfect (BDB 106, KB 122)
Isa. 53:4, "smitten" ‒ Hophal participle (BDB 645, KB 697)
Isa. 53:4, "afflicted" ‒ Pual participle (BDB 776, KB 853)
Isa. 53:5, "pierced" ‒ Poal participle (BDB 319, KB 320)
Isa. 53:5, "crushed" ‒ Pual participle (BDB 193, KB 221)
Isa. 53:7, "led" ‒ Hophal imperfect (BDB 384, KB 383)
Isa. 53:8, "considered" ‒ Polel imperfect (BDB 967, KB 1319)
53:9 Verse 9a and 9b may be antithetical parallelism on "rich," in this context referring to "the wicked." I think the first option is best. This verse describes so explicitly the crucifixion and burial of Jesus (cf. Matt. 27:38-59), as does Psalm 22.

NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: ISAIAH 53:10-12
10But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
11As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.

53:10 "But the Lord was pleased

To crush Him, putting Him to grief"

YHWH was pleased (lit. "it was the will of" ‒ BDB 342, KB 339, Qal perfect). This verb means "to delight in" (cf. Isa. 58:2; 62:4) or "desire" (55:11). It is even used of YHWH's pleasure to put someone to death in 1 Sam. 2:25. It is shocking to use a verb like this in connection with the unfair, painful treatment of the righteous Servant. YHWH had an eternal redemptive plan!
YHWH's will and purpose was "to crush" (Piel infinitive construct, cf. Isa. 53:5) and "put to grief" (Hiphil perfect, BDB 317, KB 311). The verb means "to make sick" (JPSOA) or "sore by hitting." There was a high and costly price to pay for human redemption (cf. 2 Cor. 5:21)! YHWH and His Servant paid it fully and freely!


NASB   "If He would render Himself as a guilt offering"
NKJV, NRSV   "When You make His soul an offering for sin"
TEV   "His death was a sacrifice to bring forgiveness"
NJB   "if he gives his life as a sin offering"
JPSOA   "if he made himself an offering for guilt"
Peshitta   "he laid down his life as an offering for sin"
REB   "who had given Himself as a sacrifice for sin"
LXX   "If you give an offering for sin"
This phrase is so simple yet so profound. It involves

the will of YHWH
the will of the Servant
the sinful ones who chose to receive this guilt offering (implied)
This is the Hebrew theological concept of "corporality." It is illustrated by

the sacrificial system (Leviticus 1-7), but especially the Day of Atonement (cf. Leviticus 16)
the sin of Achan affecting the Israeli army (Joshua 7)
the clear explanation in Romans 5:12-21
another great example in 2 Cor. 5:21
One innocent One paid the price to set free all the guilty ones!

"He will prolong His days" It is obvious that the Servant dies (cf. Isa. 53:8,9,12). Therefore, this verse must refer to life after death!

Notice all the things that YHWH will do for Him.

He will see His offspring (lit. "seed"), Isa. 53:10
He will prolong His days (this must refer to His afterlife), Isa. 53:10
the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand (i.e., YHWH's plan to restore fellowship with mankind), Isa. 53:10
He will see it and be satisfied, Isa. 53:11 (refers to YHWH's good pleasure [will]), Isa. 53:10e
He will justify the many, Isa. 53:11
allot Him a portion with the great, Isa. 53:12
He will divide the booty with the strong, Isa. 53:12
Poetry is always difficult to interpret. Some of these items are uncertain!

 

[Johann]

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53:11
NASB   "He will see it"
NKJV, Peshitta   "He shall see the travail of His soul"
NRSV, NJB, REB   "he shall see light"
LXX, DSS   "to show him light"
The MT has "of the travail of his soul he shall see." Notice there is no "it" but it seems to refer to "the anguish of His soul." The JPSOA footnote suggests "it" refers to "the arm of the Lord" from v. 1, which is also a feminine noun.

The UBS Text Project thinks "light" may have dropped out of the text and gives a "B" rating for its inclusion. To see light is idiomatic for "to live" (i.e., resurrection").

"By His knowledge" the NRSV has "he shall find satisfaction through his knowledge." The question of "what knowledge" seems to relate to

see His offspring (Isa. 53:10d)
prolong His life (Isa. 53:10e)
prospering of YHWH's will (Isa. 53:10f)
results of His anguish (Isa. 53:11a)
"the Righteous One. . .justify" These are both formed from one root (BDB 842, 843). YHWH's sin-bearing (cf. Isa. 53:11e) Servant will accomplish righteousness for all who believe and receive (cf. John 1:12; 3:16; Rom. 10:9-13).

"the many" See note at "all" of Isa. 53:6.

"He will bear their iniquities" The same verb (BDB 687, KB 741, Qal imperfect) was also used in Isa. 53:4. See note there.

53:12a,b "He will divide the booty with the strong" This is a war idiom of victory. It is not to be taken literally, but figuratively of spiritual victory (cf. Isa. 52:13)!

"He poured out Himself to death" This verb (BDB 788, KB 881, Hiphil perfect) is literally "be naked" or "be bare" or "to empty." It is used in Isaiah in several senses.

to uncover a weapon, Isa. 22:6
for the Spirit being given (i.e., poured out), Isa. 32:15
BDB calls it a metaphor in this text reflecting the Piel usage #3 (cf. Ps. 141:8)
KB calls it "to tip out," a metaphor "to throw away one life to death"
"And was numbered with the transgressors" Luke 22:37 quotes this verse as being spoken by Jesus in Gethsemane when the soldiers and guards came to arrest Him.

Notice the same word (BDB 833) was used of Israel's sin in Isa. 53:8 and all humans' sin in Isa. 53:5.

"He Himself bore the sin of many" This means substitutionary, vicarious atonement (cf. Matt. 20:28; Mark 10:45; 14:24; 2 Cor. 5:21; Gal. 1:4; 1 Tim. 2:6; Titus 2:14; 1 John 2:2). The UBS Text Project thinks "sin" should be plural (B rating).

"And interceded for the transgressors" And He still does (cf. Rom. 8:27,34; Heb. 7:25; 9:24; 1 John 2:1)!



1. Does the title "My Servant" refer to the Jews or the Messiah?

2. Why are the numerous references to the Gentiles' inclusion so significant in this passage?

3. Why did God choose the Jews?

4. Why did the Servant suffer?

5. Why was God pleased to crush Him?

6. What does Isa. 53:6 say about sin?

7. Why has this passage been so influential on the church?

So-@Elijahu613--former 7th Day Adventist-can you honestly tell me this passage in Isaiah 53 is referring to Isarael-or Yeshua.

 

[Johann]

Bs"d

Nobody in his right mind will deny that Isaiah 42 speaks about Israel, and that the servant there is Israel, because that is plainly mentioned several times in the text.

However, Isaiah addresses that servant with different pronouns, even in the same sentence:

"Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? Did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? For they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law. Therefore He hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart."

We see here that Isaiah, clearly speaking about the Jewish people, jumps in this short piece of text from "we" to "they" to "he". Three different incompatible pronouns, both singular and plural, all for the Jewish people.

That doesn't mean we're dealing here with three different subjects, that's just the writing style of Isaiah, and the same goes for Isaiah 53.

Nobody will deny that Isaiah 42 speaks about Israel, and that the servant there is Israel, because that is plainly mentioned several times in the text.

However, Isaiah addresses that servant with different pronouns, even in the same sentence:

"Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? Did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? For they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law. Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart."

We see here that Isaiah, clearly speaking about the Jewish people, jumps in this short piece of text from "we" to "they" to "he". Three different incompatible pronouns, all for the Jewish people.

That doesn't mean we're dealing here with three different subjects, that's just the writing style of Isaiah, and the same goes for Isaiah 53.
The facts have not changed. The facts are that Christians don't have any proof from the book of Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach that Isaiah 53 should speak about the messiah.

The fact remains that Israel is many times called "the servant of God". See here for examples: Isaiah 53

The fact remains that the context of Isaiah 53 speaks about Israel.

The fact remains that when you fill in the people of Israel for the servant, then you get the concept that Israel is being punished for the sins of Israel. That is a simple logical concept which is found all through the Tanach.

When you want to say the the servant is God/messiah, then you get the concept that God is punished for the sins of Israel, an illogical concept which is nowhere to be found in the Tanach.

The truth is really not hard to see.

You seem stunned-as to the Pronouns and verbs-that has already been covered-just look up my posts.

Yes, Messiah/Yeshua-was crushed for the sins of not only Israel, but of the sins of the whole world-truth is not really hard to see.

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]

Joh 1:2 Bereshis (in the Beginning) this Dvar Hashem was with Hashem [Prov 8:30].
Joh 1:3 All things through him came to be, and without him came to be not one thing which came into being. [Ps 33:6,9; Prov 30:4]

--but you already know this, and have rejected what stands written before your eyes.

 

[Johann]

"Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? Did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? For they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law. Therefore He hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart."

Isa 42:24 Who gave Ya’akov as loot, and Yisroel to ones plundering? Did not Hashem, He against Whom we have sinned? For they would not walk in the darkhei HaShem, neither were they obedient unto His torah.
Isa 42:25 Therefore He hath poured upon it the chemah (burning heat) of His anger, and the strength of the fury of milchamah; and it hath set him on fire round about, yet it knew not; and it consumed it, yet it laid it not to lev.

24Who subjected Jacob to plunder and Israel to spoilers? Was it not the Lord? This, that we sinned against Him, and they did not want to go in His way and did not hearken to His Torah. כדמִֽי־נָתַ֨ן לִמְשִׁיסָּ֧ה (כתיב לִמְשִׁוסָּ֧ה) יַֽעֲקֹ֛ב וְיִשְׂרָאֵ֥ל לְבֹֽזְזִ֖ים הֲל֣וֹא יְהֹוָ֑ה זוּ חָטָ֣אנוּ ל֔וֹ וְלֹֽא־אָב֚וּ בִדְרָכָיו֙ הָל֔וֹךְ וְלֹ֥א שָֽׁמְע֖וּ בְּתֽוֹרָתֽוֹ:

Rashi-
This, that we sinned against Him: This is what caused the plunder and the spoiling, what we sinned against Him.

זו חטאנו לו: זו היא שגרמה את המשיסה והבז את אשר חטאנו לו:
and they did not want: Our forefathers did not want to go in His ways.

You want to use THIS portion of Scripture as your proof-text that Isaiah 53 CANNOT possibly refer to the Yeshua HaMashiach?
Jer_33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Tzemach Tzedakah (Righteous Branch, i.e., Moshiach Ben Dovid Yehoshua, see 30:9; 23:5; Zech 3:8 Ezra 3:8; 6:11-12; Mt 2:23; Isa 4:2; 9:2-7; 11:1-12; 53:2; Moshiach the new “Joshua” Isa 49:8) to sprout up unto Dovid; He shall execute mishpat and tzedakah in ha'aretz.

I will raise unto David a righteous branch — The house of David seemed to be quite sunk and ruined by the threatening pronounced against Jeconiah, (Jer_22:30,) that none of his seed should ever sit upon the throne of David: but here we have a promise which effectually secures the honour of the covenant made with David, notwithstanding that threatening; for by it his house will be raised out of its ruins to a greater lustre than ever, and shine brighter than it did even in the days of Solomon. We have not so many prophecies of Christ in this book as we had in that of the Prophet Isaiah. But here we have a very illustrious one. Of him, doubtless, the prophet here speaks, and of no other person. Even the Jewish doctors, as well as Christian interpreters, understand this as a prophecy of the Messiah, who is called the branch: Isa_4:2; Isa_53:2; and the man the branch, Zec_3:8. And here he is termed the righteous branch, not only because he himself was righteous, but because he makes his people righteous; and a king that shall reign and prosper — Not like kings that now were of the house of David, going backward in all their affairs, but one that shall set up a kingdom in the world, which shall be victorious over all opposition; one to whose hands the good pleasure of the Lord shall be committed, and under whose care and management it shall prosper; one who shall execute judgment and justice in the earth — All the world over, Psa_96:13. The present kings of David’s line were unjust and oppressive, and their affairs therefore did not prosper; but this king shall break the usurped power of Satan, institute a perfect rule of holy living, and in due time make all the world righteous. In his days — That is, under his dominion, when his kingdom shall be set up and established upon earth; Judah shall be saved, &c. — The people of God, typified by Judah and Israel, shall be saved with a spiritual and eternal salvation, a salvation from the guilt and power of sin, into the favour and image of God here, and into the kingdom of his glory hereafter. At which kingdom, till they arrive, God will be a special protection to them, their refuge and strength, and very present help in trouble; so that they shall dwell safely — Confiding in the care of their strong helper, and preserved in perfect peace. And this is his name whereby he shall be called — Namely, by his people, and by God; the name whereby he shall be known, and which shall at once be descriptive both of his person and office. THE LORD, Hebrew, JEHOVAH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS — Though of the seed of David according to the flesh, he shall indeed be JEHOVAH, God in human nature, and OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS; namely, justifying us by his merits, sanctifying us by his Spirit, and directing us in every part of our duty by his doctrine and example; the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth in him with a faith that worketh by love.

that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch; the Messiah; so it is explained by the Targum, which calls him the Messiah of the righteous; and by Kimchi and Ben Melech; and by the ancient Jews (e) also; who is frequently by the prophets spoken of as a branch, Isa_4:2, Zec_3:8; which respects his incarnation, his springing up and appearance in the earth, and the meanness and weakness of it; and here, his descent from the family of David, when that was in a low and mean condition, to be his successor in his throne and kingdom, not in a temporal, but in a spiritual sense; and is a branch and plant not of man's raising, but of the Lord's, his human nature being formed without the help of man; and is that tabernacle which God pitched, and not man; and is therefore elsewhere called the Branch of the Lord, and said to be brought forth by him, Isa_4:2; the epithet of "righteous" is given him, because righteous in himself, and the author of righteousness to others; a branch that brings forth and bears the fruits of righteousness, from whence all those that are ingrafted in him come to have righteousness;
and a King shall reign and prosper; the King Messiah, the same with David's righteous Branch, his son and offspring; who was appointed by God the Father "King" over Zion, the church, from all eternity; was always promised and spoken of as a King, and came as such, though his kingdom was not with observation, it being not of this world; and when he ascended to heaven, he was declared Lord and Christ; and now "reigns" on the same throne with his Father, and will till all enemies are put under his footstool: and as he prospered in his priestly office, by obtaining the redemption and salvation of his people, which is the "pleasure of the Lord" that was to "prosper in his hand", Isa_53:10; so likewise in his kingly and prophetic offices, by going forth in his Gospel conquering and to conquer; riding forth therein prosperously, and subduing his enemies, and causing his ministers to triumph in him: or, "shall deal prudently" (f), as the word is rendered in Isa_52:13;-

See how ludicrous this is?

 

[Johann]

The truth is really not hard to see.

Interesting-how can a sin-laden Israel "die" for the sins of the whole world?

 

[Johann]

Bs"d

I invested enough time and energy in you.

It's time you show me where your assumptions are to be found in the Tanach and in dictionaries. Go ahead, I'm waiting.

I have already answered-just follow the road.

 

[Johann]

This single quote from Psalms - and there are other Messianic verses which present the same proof - PROVES that Yeshua is NOT God (Elohim), since he (Yeshua) refers to the ONE, True God as HIS Elohim! Verse 10 also proves how Yeshua worshipped the same God we should worship from his birth! Thus, since Yeshua very clearly referred to the God HE WORSHIPPED as Elohim, the term Elohim cannot possibly refer to Yeshua in the sense of making him God!

Proves that Yeshua is not God?

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
Bereshis (in the Beginning) this Dvar Hashem was with Hashem [Prov 8:30].
All things through him came to be, and without him came to be not one thing which came into being. [Ps 33:6,9; Prov 30:4]
In him was Chayyim (Life) and the Chayyim (Life) was the Ohr (Light) of Bnei Adam. [TEHILLIM 36:10 (9)]

Your emphatic assertion is proven to be false, according to Scriptures.

 

[Johann]

The truth is really not hard to see.

By Jack KinsellaThe Shema is the central prayer in the Jewish prayer book. It is generally one of the first prayers a Jewish child learns. The Shema defines what it means to be Jewish as it has since the days of Moses: Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad—“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one” (Deuteronomy 6:4). It is upon this central truth that Judaism was founded as the world's first uniquely monotheistic faith, surrounded as it was by a world of polytheistic paganism. The Bible declares emphatically that “there is no God besides Me” (Deuteronomy 32:39), “I am the LORD and there is no other” (Isaiah 45:18), together with similarly strong declarations in Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 46:10, Exodus 3:14, and elsewhere. So to someone born into a Jewish family and then raised in the Jewish faith, the Christian understanding of the Trinity is pagan polytheism, as is the Christian understanding of Yeshua as both Son of God and God the Son. To a Jew, this sounds like another god, a different god than the God of the Shema. So to him, a call to follow Yeshua is a call to be unfaithful to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And if God has a Son, why didn't He mention Him in the Old Testament?As a matter of fact, He did. Read Psalm 2:12: “Kiss his son, or he will be angry and your way will lead to your destruction, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.” Of Whom do you think the Psalmist is referring when he speaks of the “Son”? Among the Bible's unmistakably monotheistic declarations are a number of perplexing assertions of plurality. It is perplexing because the Bible is most definite that there is only one God, but there is just as definitely a plurality about His Person. Of all the other names Moses might have made use of for God, he used Elohim, a plural invariably translated “us” as in Genesis 1:26—“Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness . . .” or Genesis 11:7—“Let us go down and confuse their language . . .” Moses had other, singular Names he could have chosen for God besides Elohim, but Moses used the plural form because it was the one that God inspired him to use. Other plural terms used for God in the Old Testament include panim (equivalent to the Greek prosopa, for “faces,” “persons,” or “presence”), which is found in Exodus 33:14-15, Psalm 27:8-9, and Deuteronomy 4:37. The literal Hebrew for “Maker” in Job 35:10, Psalm 149:2, and Isaiah 54:5 is the plural, “Makers.” For “Creator” in Ecclesiastes 12:1, the literal Hebrew is “Creators.” The Bible teaches that no man has ever seen God or can ever see God, yet there are numerous references to visible appearances of God in the Old Testament. Some of these are clear references to the Son of God, as in Daniel 3:25. The King had ordered three men thrown into the furnace, but the captain of the guard reported there were four walking unhurt in the midst of the flames. “Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God” (NKJV). That the Son is also the eternal God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is demonstrated by the fact that He allows Himself to be worshipped—blasphemy for anyone else except God. There were also the three men that appeared to Abraham. Two were angels, but one the Bible refers to repeatedly as “the Lord.” Joshua 5:13-15 records a nearconfrontation between Joshua and a man that stood before him holding a drawn sword. Joshua went up to him and asked, “Are you for us or for our enemies?” “Neither,” he replied, “but as commander of the army of the LORD I have now come.” The Bible says that Joshua threw himself down before the man and worshipped and was instructed to take off his sandals, for the place where he now stood was holy ground. This cannot be just an angel. Angels cannot accept worship. The commander of the Lord's Army is, in fact, the Lord Himself, since only the Lord can accept worship. The “Angel of the Lord” in Genesis 16:7, 13, Genesis 22:11-12, and Exodus 3:2-6 are similar examples of the pre-incarnate Redeemer that later stepped out of space and time to be born, fully God and fully man, to a Jewish virgin in Bethlehem. According to John 1:1-3, He was Yeshua of Nazareth, and simultaneously, God the Son, present at Creation and without Whom “nothing was made that has been made.” The Father and the Son are one God, but at the same time, two distinct Persons. Colossians 1:15 explains it this way: “The Son is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn over all Creation.” Just as the Shema is the bedrock doctrine of Judaism, this truth is the bedrock doctrine of Christianity; “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God” (Matthew 16:16). Only as God the Son could He be our Redeemer—unless God Himself redeems us, we cannot be redeemed. The law of God demands perfect obedience to the Law—Yeshua is the only One who ever lived who fulfilled that demand. The law demands just punishment for those who sin—He fulfilled that demand as well. The law has been upheld. It is satisfied.To deny the Son is to deny the Father Who promised our redemption: “if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins” ( John 8:24).

You sit with a problem

 

[amigo de christo]

Bs"d

You put your hope on JC.

I put my hope on the one and only true God Y-H-W-H who is one.

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5

If your hope is not in CHRIST JESUS whom YHWH did send , then its not in YHWH who SENT HIM .

 

[amigo de christo]

You seem stunned-as to the Pronouns and verbs-that has already been covered-just look up my posts.

Yes, Messiah/Yeshua-was crushed for the sins of not only Israel, but of the sins of the whole world-truth is not really hard to see.

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]

Joh 1:2 Bereshis (in the Beginning) this Dvar Hashem was with Hashem [Prov 8:30].
Joh 1:3 All things through him came to be, and without him came to be not one thing which came into being. [Ps 33:6,9; Prov 30:4]

--but you already know this, and have rejected what stands written before your eyes.

A denial of Christ JESUS is a denial of the Father who sent Him .
John said well what spirit it is that denies JESUS as the Christ . As for the lambs we shall continue
to POINT to CHRIST ALONE whom GOD did send as the only means , the only name whereby one may be saved .
Keep marching on my friend . We point to CHRIST . He who honors the SON honors the FATHER .

 

[Johann]

A denial of Christ JESUS is a denial of the Father who sent Him .
John said well what spirit it is that denies JESUS as the Christ . As for the lambs we shall continue
to POINT to CHRIST ALONE whom GOD did send as the only means , the only name whereby one may be saved .
Keep marching on my friend . We point to CHRIST . He who honors the SON honors the FATHER .

We are in a warfare my brother-give this a listen.

 

[amigo de christo]

Proves that Yeshua is not God?

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
Bereshis (in the Beginning) this Dvar Hashem was with Hashem [Prov 8:30].
All things through him came to be, and without him came to be not one thing which came into being. [Ps 33:6,9; Prov 30:4]
In him was Chayyim (Life) and the Chayyim (Life) was the Ohr (Light) of Bnei Adam. [TEHILLIM 36:10 (9)]

Your emphatic assertion is proven to be false, according to Scriptures.

The man actually thinks he knows torah . He believes he knows moses and the prophets .
But i know He does NOT . Cause the law and the prophets , moses himself SPOKE OF CHRIST .
If he hears not the law he will not be convinced though one even rose from the dead .
The law is spiritual and it does point to Christ . Point to Christ till the last breath my friend . The LORD is our hope
and our salvation . Praise be to the glorious Lord .