Reasons Jews Reject Jesus

[Matthias]

Bs"d

It's a big mess. It places Mordechai in the time of Moses, and many more course mistakes. It are just the rantings of one man.

Have you discussed it with Muslims?

 

[Eliyahu613]

Then why is Isaiah not also speaking about the messiah when he is speaking about Israel?

Bs"d

Because Isaiah speaks about a time period thousands of years before the messiah.

And about 700 years before JC.

 

[Eliyahu613]

Have you discussed it with Muslims?

Bs"d

Yes.

 

[Eliyahu613]

Are you saying that the rabbis, with their various views, didn’t go by the prophets?

Bs"d

What I'm saying is that there are a lot of rabbi's with whom I disagree.

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

Because Isaiah speaks about a time period thousands of years before the messiah.

And about 700 years before JC.

If messiah isn’t included in what Isaiah wrote about Israel because the messiah hadn’t come yet, would you say that Isaiah is also not talking about the people of Israel who had not come yet?

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

What I'm saying is that there are a lot of rabbi's with whom I disagree.

Would you list the names of the rabbis whom you agree with? I’m interested in reading them.

 

[Eliyahu613]

It doesn’t persuade Jews who believe Jesus is the messiah.

Bs"d

There were many Jews who worshiped golden calves. There are many Jews who are Buddhists. There are many Jews who are atheists.

All that means nothing.

 

[Eliyahu613]

Would you list the names of the rabbis whom you agree with? I’m interested in reading them.

Bs"d

I disagree with every reform rabbi, with every conservative rabbi, with every rabbi who discards or changes part of the law, and with every rabbi who says that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

 

[Eliyahu613]

Okay, here's how we know it was Jesus. You don't start with someone else's belief system when you're talking to converts. You start with yours, even if they are Jews. Why? Because their beliefs are wrong and based on all the wrong things, so your goal isn't to prove theirs wrong, your job is to prove yours right...

If Jesus is not the Messiah, then the Messiah will never come. Period.

That is how specific the prophecies concerning the Messiah were.

Do you know how I can say that? The Messiah was prophesied to come during the time of the second Temple.

The second Temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

So either we are right, and Jesus is who He claimed to be, or there's no Messiah coming.

Bs"d

I assume you refer to the prophecy of Daniel 9. Well, that does not speak about THE messiah, but about two messiah's. But not THE messiah.

For the finer details look here: Daniel 9

 

[Eliyahu613]

If messiah isn’t included in what Isaiah wrote about Israel because the messiah hadn’t come yet, would you say that Isaiah is also not talking about the people of Israel who had not come yet?

Bs"d

In Isaiah 53 Isaiah does not speak about future Jews. But he does so in some end time prophecies.

 

[NayborBear]

You’re showing him your / Christian interpretation of the text. He believes you have the actors wrong.

Isaiah 53:
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.


9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.


10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

One should be able to see here as Isaiah was going from dictation to narration that the My people spoken of in verse 8 concerns Israel. (As Jehovah had not yet at this time divorced Israel. But? He could see the path they were on and what its end would be.)

In verse 9 the tomb given was from Joseph of Aramathiah.
A very rich man who was Jesus' Uncle.
It was rumored that when Jesus was but a lad, this same Joseph took him a sailing across the pond to what is now England. As Joseph had a profitable tin mining operation going on. (tis also rumored that the people in what is now called England were "migrants" (if you will) from the 10 tribes of Israel who had migrated from Israel's captivity by Nebacadrezzar (with whom Hezakiah's daughters migrated with the the Prophet Jeremiah in his travelings) across the Caucasus mountains (later being referred to as "caucasions") and settled in the British Isles.

In verse 10 we can see how it pleased the LORD that 1 of His "Priests" should rise up for the cause/glory of God in the "substitution" of Abraham's sacrifice of Issac! (which is where the term "Saxon" comes from. "Issac's sons.")

Too much of "HIS Story?"

 

[Eliyahu613]

One should be able to see here as Isaiah was going from dictation to narration that the My people spoken of in verse 8 concerns Israel. (As Jehovah had not yet at this time divorced Israel.

Bs"d

God will NEVER break HIs covenant with Israel, not even when they go off the right path:

The Christian churches believe in the theory that G.d rejected His chosen people, and that instead the Christians are the new spiritual Israel. However, G.d says clearly in the Holy Torah that He will never break his covenant with the Jewish people, even not when they stray away from Him. When the Jews go astray G.d will punish them. (Leviticus 26:14-17) And if they then still don't listen, G.d will punish them seven times harder. (idem:18-22) And if they then still don't listen, G.d will punish them another seven times harder. (idem:23-24) And if they then still refuse to turn back to G.d, He will punish them another seven times harder. (idem:27-28) But despite all this, G.d will not break His covenant with the Jewish people: Leviticus 26:44-45; "And yet for all that, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break My covenant with them: For I am Y-H-W-H their G.d. But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their G.d: I am Y-H-W-H."

"Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying: The two families that the LORD hath chosen, He has even cast them of? Thus they have despised My people, that they should no more be a nation before them. Thus saith the LORD: If My covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: for I will cause their captivety to return and have mercy on them." Jeremiah 33:24-26

If G.d rejected the Jews, why then is He now fulfilling the prophecies that He will gather in the Jews and bring them back to their land? "Fear not, for I am with thee, I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west. I will say to the north; give up, and to the south; keep not back: Bring my sons from far, and My daughters from the ends of the earth." Isaiah 43:5+6 The whole world witnesses this miracle, how after almost 2000 years of dispersion over the whole earth the Jews are returning to Israel. In just 50 years a state has been built from scratch, the Hebrew language has been revived. Is there any precedent in history for this? Is there any other people that was dispersed throughout the whole world for almost 2000 years that held on to their identity and their religion?---Surely we see here the hand of G.d. However, this is not the final ingathering of Jews, that is to be done by the messiah. The final ingathering will be after the war of Gog from Magog with Israel. This is described by the prophet Ezekiel, in Ezekiel 38 and 39. Please read these two chapters in order to get a good overview of this. Ezekiel 38:8; "In the latter years thou shall come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel." Here it is prophesied that Gog will attack Israel, a land that is brought out of many nations. We see now that the Jews from the whole world are coming home. The Jews are coming from Africa, America, all the European countries have given their share of Jews, we have had mass immigration from Russia, the Jews are coming home from all over the world.

 

[NayborBear]

God will NEVER break HIs covenant with Israel, not even when they go off the right path:

Didn't say the LORD "broke" His covenant! You did!
He DID however "divorce" Israel!

Hosea 1:
2 The beginning of the word of the Lord by Hosea. And the Lord said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, DEPARTING from the Lord.

Even a blind man should be able to see that it was not the LORD that broke His covenant!
It was Israel that DEPARTED from THEIR end of the covenant!

And time after time when Israel strayed off and the LORD chastised them?
They would cry out to the LORD! Whimpering from the persecutions and defeats in battle!
And time after time the LORD would hear their cries and gather them back in!

Are ya starting to see a pattern here?
That no matter how far Israel strayed, the LORD would "eventually" gather them back in?

UNTIL?
Jeremiah 3:
7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.

8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

 

[Spyder]

#1 reason in my experience - the thing which by policy must not be discussed on this board.

That reason affected not only the Jews.

 

[Eliyahu613]

Didn't say the LORD "broke" His covenant! You did!
He DID however "divorce" Israel!

Hosea 1:
2 The beginning of the word of the Lord by Hosea. And the Lord said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, DEPARTING from the Lord.

Even a blind man should be able to see that it was not the LORD that broke His covenant!
It was Israel that DEPARTED from THEIR end of the covenant!

And time after time when Israel strayed off and the LORD chastised them?
They would cry out to the LORD! Whimpering from the persecutions and defeats in battle!
And time after time the LORD would hear their cries and gather them back in!

Are ya starting to see a pattern here?
That no matter how far Israel strayed, the LORD would "eventually" gather them back in?

UNTIL?
Jeremiah 3:
7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.

8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Bs"d

Thus saith the LORD: If My covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: for I will cause their captivety to return and have mercy on them." Jeremiah 33:24-26

The covenant between God and Israel will never be broken.

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

In Isaiah 53 Isaiah does not speak about future Jews.

That’s consistent with your argument against Isaiah speaking about the messiah in Isaiah 53.

I was reading online last night about some of the talmudic rabbis who said Isaiah was including the messiah in the people of Israel in the chapter 53. I may try to find those Jewish sources again and quote them for interested readers.

They accepted, generically, what you don’t.

But he does so in some end time prophecies.

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

I disagree with every reform rabbi, with every conservative rabbi, with every rabbi who discards or changes part of the law, and with every rabbi who says that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

Our readers need to know that there are rabbis who say that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah. You’ve done them a good service by confirming that there are.

 

[Matthias]

Isaiah 53:
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.


9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.


10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

One should be able to see here as Isaiah was going from dictation to narration that the My people spoken of in verse 8 concerns Israel. (As Jehovah had not yet at this time divorced Israel. But? He could see the path they were on and what its end would be.)

In verse 9 the tomb given was from Joseph of Aramathiah.
A very rich man who was Jesus' Uncle.
It was rumored that when Jesus was but a lad, this same Joseph took him a sailing across the pond to what is now England. As Joseph had a profitable tin mining operation going on. (tis also rumored that the people in what is now called England were "migrants" (if you will) from the 10 tribes of Israel who had migrated from Israel's captivity by Nebacadrezzar (with whom Hezakiah's daughters migrated with the the Prophet Jeremiah in his travelings) across the Caucasus mountains (later being referred to as "caucasions") and settled in the British Isles.

In verse 10 we can see how it pleased the LORD that 1 of His "Priests" should rise up for the cause/glory of God in the "substitution" of Abraham's sacrifice of Issac! (which is where the term "Saxon" comes from. "Issac's sons.")

Too much of "HIS Story?"

I don’t find rumors persuasive. I can’t imagine @Eliyahu613 would.

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

There were many Jews who worshiped golden calves. There are many Jews who are Buddhists. There are many Jews who are atheists.

All that means nothing.

Both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament address the serious matter of Jewish infidelity to God.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Mohammed was directly spoken to by the Archangel Gabriel.

The Old Testament has an opening for the coming Messiah.

The New Testament closes it.

The Quran is fiction.