Reasons Jews Reject Jesus

[Mr E]

The New Testament presents Jesus as the fulfillment of this requirement for the Messiah, that he be descended from King David. And so we have verses such as:

The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. (Matthew 1:1)

In addition, both Matthew and Luke provide genealogies tracing Jesus back to David.

Respectfully-- this is the kind of tripe that Jews dismiss with a wave of the hand.

You can't ignore the gap from Joseph to Jesus.... No Joseph, no blood. No Joseph, no Y chromosome. No direct lineage.

You must understand they are extremely dismissive of the gospel accounts, considering them to be apologies for the sect (they might say Jesus cult) who wrote their own histories (ignoring the fact that they did the same).

The gospel accounts can't even agree on one generation-- who Joseph's own father was-- never mind the inconvenient premise that stands as an elephant in the manger-- both gospels go along with the idea that Joseph is not the actual father.

Swing and a miss.

 

[Mr E]

In Judaism, an adoptive father was always considered father in every respect.

No.

Not in every respect. Quite glaringly obvious, not with respect to bloodlines.

 

[Johann]

Respectfully-- this is the kind of tripe that Jews dismiss with a wave of the hand.

You can't ignore the gap from Joseph to Jesus.... No Joseph, no blood. No Joseph, no Y chromosome. No direct lineage.

You must understand they are extremely dismissive of the gospel accounts, considering them to be apologies for the sect (they might say Jesus cult) who wrote their own histories (ignoring the fact that they did the same).

The gospel accounts can't even agree on one generation-- who Joseph's own father was-- never mind the inconvenient premise that stands as an elephant in the manger-- both gospels go along with the idea that Joseph is not the actual father.

Swing and a miss.

Not really a "swing and a miss"--are you Messianic?

Always willing to pull up the Midrash, Mishnah, Talmud or any rabbinical source to come to the bottom of this, that's IF, we can get to the bottom of this.

 

[Adam]

Absurd. Jesus identifies himself as David’s lord. He asks the Pharisees how can David’s son (descendant) be his lord.

It is a profound question and they had no answer for it.

If Jesus is God then why does he call God his Father?

In the context of the spiritual, one's Lord is one you surrender your will to. David surrenders his will to the man he will become, Jesus, and thereby becomes Jesus. At the same time, Jesus is the product of David's reincarnation, and therefore David's spiritual son.

Note also the context: the Saducees don't believe in "the ressurection" and challenge Jesus. Jesus answers that after death you will become a spirit. Then immediately afterwards, within the context of RESSURECTION Jesus poses this counter-challenge. This would be a non-sequitur if he were not revealing his own nature.

 

[Johann]

No.

Not in every respect. Quite glaringly obvious, not with respect to bloodlines.

I would politely disagree with you.
We can pull up the Talmud, or any rabbinical writings--even the Sages and, of course, Dr. Michael Brown--again, are you Messianic?

To explain all this we have to start a new thread.
Might help me to wipe away the cobwebs and get serious.

 

[Adam]

Jesus alone is the Messiah who existed before creation; He created the world. David was not and is not the Messiah.

Taking a few verses out of context (without understanding them) is tragic.

I am quoting it exactly as it is written and how you choose to interpret it is up to you.

Do you actually believe that John the Baptizer is Elijah re-created and that Jesus is David re-created? Or are you just here to spread false doctrine? If the former, you are seriously deluded and must learn to interpret Scripture correctly. If the latter, you should probably consider how God regards those who teach others false doctrine.

I interpret scripture as it is written: spiritually, not in the flesh.

Jesus is not a descendent of David, in the flesh, but in the spirit.

 

[Johann]

No.

Not in every respect. Quite glaringly obvious, not with respect to bloodlines.

I would venture to say Michael Brown, One for Israel--and the Sages had it wrong, and you hold the "mafte'ach"--

Shalom
J.

 

[Johann]

If Jesus is God then why does he call God his Father?

In the context of the spiritual, one's Lord is one you surrender your will to. David surrenders his will to the man he will become, Jesus, and thereby becomes Jesus. At the same time, Jesus is the product of David's reincarnation, and therefore David's spiritual son.

Note also the context: the Saducees don't believe in "the ressurection" and challenge Jesus. Jesus answers that after death you will become a spirit. Then immediately afterwards, within the context of RESSURECTION Jesus poses this counter-challenge. This would be a non-sequitur if he were not revealing his own nature.

Dear brother, I simply love your pathos--but Yeshua is not David, or David Yeshua--and there is no karma in scriptures.
Shalom
J.

 

[Mr E]

I would politely disagree with you.
We can pull up the Talmud, or any rabbinical writings--even the Sages and, of course, Dr. Michael Brown--again, are you Messianic?

To explain all this we have to start a new thread.
Might help me to wipe away the cobwebs and get serious.

By all means- be my guest…. start another thread or a dozen of them if you like.

If you say something true, and someone disagrees with it (rejects it) does their rejection make what you said untrue?

It’s not conjecture or speculation or some sort of “work around” that Jews are standing on— it’s blood. It’s DNA. That’s the argument you have to overcome. Mr Brown can’t help you. How do you counter their argument? It’s a matter of X’s and Y’s.

 

[Lizbeth]

I hear you @Lizbeth --if you have time, listen to this--Christianity, Christ and our Bibles is being debunked as "fairy tales"--I have listened to these debates for years, Scobac, Tovia Singer and others and it doesn't help to read the Jewish Study Bible or the Chumash and ancient rabbiniccal writings online, luring unstable Christians in/through the gate/s of Judaism.

J.

May the Lord give them eyes to see. That speaker doesn't understand the hidden nature of truth in the scriptures....hid from the wise and learned but revealed to little children. The carnal mind is certainly enmity with God and can't perceive the things of the spirit. Jews are sometimes enemies for the gospel's sake, but they are loved for the sake of the patriarchs, whose people and descendants they are.

I think it's a snare to believe that THIS world will be utopian...that could lead people to try and bring it about with the arm of flesh.

Hebrew roots movement (which I embraced at one time) has led some to become law-keepers (fallen from grace!).....I didn't know that Christians are also being lured to Judaism. And some are being lured to Catholicism as well.

 

[Johann]

Jews have no problem with the idea that Joseph was the father of Jesus--

Doesn't it make sense to say that the Gospel of Luke gives Mary's genealogy, since it would be nonsense to go through Joseph's line if he is not the biological father of Jesus?

It should be noted that the Gospel of Matthew sets the precedent for presenting a genealogy of Jesus that goes through Joseph. Incidentally, this genealogy goes through a line (Jehoiakim) that is disqualified for kingship. Therefore, it is not surprising that Luke's genealogical list also gives a genealogy (much different from that given by Matthew), which is supposedly that of Joseph.

The Gospel of Luke provides a variant tradition concerning Jesus' ancestry. In the literal Greek of its genealogical listing "Joseph of the Heli" (Luke 3:23) is just another way of saying "Joseph son of Heli."

Some Christian commentators have claimed that Luke gives Mary's genealogy. Accordingly, it is proposed that Heli is the father-in-law of Joseph, that is, Heli is the name of Mary's father. There is no genealogical record, in either the Jewish Bible or the New Testament, which refers to a man as the son of his father-in-law. There is no verse in the New Testament that says Mary is the daughter of Heli.

To presume that Mary was of Davidic descent presents the problem that Mary could not pass on what she did not possess: (1) Maternal connection does not enter into consideration for succession to the throne of David which is passed on only through a continuous male line: "There shall not be cut off from David a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel" (Jeremiah 33:17);

(2) Biblically, the right of lineal privilege, that is, kingship and priesthood, are exclusively passed on through the male line. The incident regarding the inheritance of the daughters of Zelophehad (Numbers, chapters 27 and 36) does not apply here since it concerns the transference of physical property and not privileges of lineage.

Considering Luke's genealogical list, neither Joseph nor Mary could claim an inheritance to the throne of David through Heli. Heli and his progeny would be disqualified in regard to the Davidic kingship if he were a descendant of Nathan. Of all the son's of David, God chose Solomon to sit on the throne of Israel (1 Chronicles 29:1, 1 Kings 2:24).

Whether through Joseph or Mary, Jesus is disqualified from the messianic office.

© Gerald Sigal

JEWS FOR JUDAISM

And now we have a problem--see that @Mr E?
Who's right--Tovia and Scobac, or Brown and Jews for Jesus?

Shalom
In a debate, you get to know your opponent and what he believes--and you then need to counter with Scriptures, and extra-biblical sources.

 

[Adam]

Dear brother, I simply love your pathos--but Yeshua is not David, or David Yeshua--and there is no karma in scriptures.
Shalom
J.

The Messiah is David's Son, and also David's Lord. (Source: scripture)

A man's father is his lord. A man must, according to the commandments, respect his father.

So David is Messiah's Lord and also Messiah's Son.

There is only one answer to this riddle: What sits between your father and your son? Yourself.

 

[Wrangler]

Their argument is non-negotiable. Jesus MUST have descended from (his father) Joseph to be considered a messiah candidate and to have had the most basic bona fides to qualify as a legitimate son in the ancestral line of David.

In debate, no point is negotiable. Debate is not a negotiation.

It about what argument most appeals to reason. Regarding bona fide, one thing the Messiah and Scripture teaches us time and again is NOT to look to pedigree. The Patriach’s were nobodies who came from nobodies. It is God alone who elevated these common men to leadership.

Moses and David were murderers. Jacob was a polygamist. Others were incestuous, prostitutes. The mother of Mary was guilty of conceiving out of wedlock, the penalty of which was death.

So, the question is in light of all this, is it reasonable that the redeemer of the world would emerge from the outcast, qualify by the slimmest of margins? Or inconsistent with all of scripture, have impeachable, bona fide credentials?

I agree it is questionable or debatable. To claim the relationship to David MUST BE BIOLOGICAL is an extra-biblical standard IMO. And in the final analysis, we must end the debate, end the negotiation and STAND on what seems among reasonable men to make the most sense.

We must allow unbelievers to come to Jesus, as it were; to weigh unencumbered by passion or prejudice the facts and arguments in full consideration. And allow them in the meantime to voice their initial passion or prejudices.

 

[Johann]

By all means- be my guest…. start another thread or a dozen of them if you like.

If you say something true, and someone disagrees with it (rejects it) does their rejection make what you said untrue?

It’s not conjecture or speculation or some sort of “work around” that Jews are standing on— it’s blood. It’s DNA. That’s the argument you have to overcome. Mr Brown can’t help you. How do you counter their argument? It’s a matter of X’s and Y’s.

No, it's not a matter of "X's and Y's"--again, I politely disagree--by dismissing Dr. Brown and Tovia Singer, Scobac, and the Messianics plus the Sages and their writings, sweeping it under a carpet, you are doing yourself a disservice--remember, we are not only discussing the genealogies, but the total debunking of Christ, the virgin birth, the Cross, and the resurrection of Christ as fictitious.

I have given you three interpretations, Brown, One for Israel, Jews for Jesus--and now Tovia--are you familiar with these names besides Brown?

 

[Wrangler]

It's the only acceptable manner of ancestral transference- by blood, father to son and I'll explain why it must be so as well as how it can be so.

I already explained in great detail how this is not the Biblical standard. ‘Can’ is a potential word, not a word denoting actuality.

Having said that, you seem to have a solution yet to express. So, by all means, do so.

 

[Wrangler]

He is either of this line through a father, or he is not. For the Jews, there is no equivocating on this point.

There is no equivocation on this point. Jesus is the son of David through marriage. They are falsely asserting it must be through blood, which is unprecedented.

For instance, there were 2 Hebrew kingdoms. Both could not be ‘the rightful heir’ of David.

 

[Wrangler]

If Jesus is God then why does he call God his Father?

This topic is prohibited. PM me if you want a more detailed explanation.

 

[Johann]

May the Lord give them eyes to see. That speaker doesn't understand the hidden nature of truth in the scriptures....hid from the wise and learned but revealed to little children. The carnal mind is certainly enmity with God and can't perceive the things of the spirit. Jews are sometimes enemies for the gospel's sake, but they are loved for the sake of the patriarchs, whose people and descendants they are.

I think it's a snare to believe that THIS world will be utopian...that could lead people to try and bring it about with the arm of flesh.

Hebrew roots movement (which I embraced at one time) has led some to become law-keepers (fallen from grace!).....I didn't know that Christians are also being lured to Judaism. And some are being lured to Catholicism as well.

If you are led to do so dear @Lizbeth, go to One for Israel, especially the testimonies--this has nothing to do with Hebrew roots movement, we have aggressive campaigning from Orthodox rabbis against Christians, to "inform them" that our copy and paste New Testament is "glued" to their Torah and is totally fictitious--no Christ--no crucifixion--no resurrection--no virgin birth, but then, this is my passion, I don't expect others to feel the same way.

Everywhere these rabbis go, the places are "packed" to hear the Shema--and mostly Christians are there to hear this charismatic rabbi spearheading Jews for Judaism


Shema Yisroel Adonoi Eloheinu Adonoi Echad.
And thou shalt love Hashem Eloheicha b'chol l'vavcha u'vchol nafshcha uvechol modecha.
And these devarim, which I command thee today, shall be in thine lev;
And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy banim, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine bais, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
And thou shalt bind them for an ot upon thine hand, and they shall be as totafos (ornaments [Shemot 13:16, Shabbos 57a]) between thine eyes.
And thou shalt write them upon the mezuzot of thy bais, and on thy she'arim.

Shalom to you and family
J.

 

[Jim B]

To crack the egg you have to first acknowledge it, fragile as it is. Without wanting to offer a 99-cent biology lesson, I must-- such is the world we now live in. Sigh--- girls have two x-chromosomes (XX) Boys have one x and one y (XY). You can think of that Y as the penis part. It's what makes a boy a boy and not a girl. When a mommy and a daddy love each other (in a Biblical way) a baby can be conceived as a result of two parents joining. The mommy will contribute one of her two X's. If the daddy also contributes an X-- the baby will become a little girl-- an XX just like her mommy and not an XY like her daddy, because she got his X, not his Y. She inherits one X from mom, and one X from dad.

Conversely-- if the baby gets one of its mommy's two X's (that's all she can give, remember) and it gets a Y from the daddy (and not his X) then the baby becomes a little boy-- just like his daddy an XY (one X from mom, one Y from dad).

The Jewish argument is one of science. They ask-- where did little baby boy Jesus get his Y from if not from Joseph AND-- if not from Joseph-- he is simply NOT of the lineage of David and that bloodline that descended through Judah, son of Jacob, son of Issac, son of Abraham.

He is either of this line through a father, or he is not. For the Jews, there is no equivocating on this point.

So what? The New Testament says that Jesus is from the line of David. It doesn't matter if Jews claim otherwise.

 

[Mr E]

May the Lord give them eyes to see. That speaker doesn't understand the hidden nature of truth in the scriptures....hid from the wise and learned but revealed to little children. The carnal mind is certainly enmity with God and can't perceive the things of the spirit. Jews are sometimes enemies for the gospel's sake, but they are loved for the sake of the patriarchs, whose people and descendants they are.

I think it's a snare to believe that THIS world will be utopian...that could lead people to try and bring it about with the arm of flesh.

Hebrew roots movement (which I embraced at one time) has led some to become law-keepers (fallen from grace!).....I didn't know that Christians are also being lured to Judaism. And some are being lured to Catholicism as well.

Now you are treading dangerously close to the precious eschatology of many Christians in addition to those Jews who hope and believe in a coming earthly kingdom with a messiah upon a throne. The Bible is full of stories of men with more than one wife. It’s wanting their Kate and Edith too.

Some will argue away the Jewish concern here saying- it’s a spiritual kingdom he was teaching about, a spiritual throne and ‘the hidden nature’ of things— the mystery, that earthly minded folks don’t comprehend or consider. Then many of those same folks await an earthly messianic kingdom come, with Jesus on the throne in Jerusalem, ruling it with a rod of iron. Go figure.