Reasons why the Jehovah’s Witness religion is false (Despite my love for them as human beings)

[Aunty Jane]

Here is where your entire argument goes right off the tracks into being absolutely wrong. Protestantism is not "more correct". It simply swung to the opposite extreme of taking an unbiblical position. Because the papacy was corrupt, Protestants somehow concluded that all government is bad, including God's government.

I would argue that Protestantism is a lot more dangerous than Catholicism because of the clever way its adherents expertly sell lawless doctrines as Christian. Whether they are honest enough with themselves to admit or not, Protestants arrogantly believe that they are smart enough to figure out what is right and wrong for themselves, irrespective of God's commandments. It shows in their contempt for God's commandments, their contempt for the OT as a whole, and their frequent misuse of Paul and Christ's words.

As Richard Rex succinctly pointed out in his article about Martin Luther, Martin Luther's liberal approach to reading scripture is what paved the way for modern humanism to become prevalent in the West today.

As corrupt as Catholicism is, it has historically managed to keep entire groups of people united because there is government and a centralized authority. Protestantism, however, has served to do the exact opposite of uniting because its adherents hate the idea of being ruled by anybody, let alone God. It is for this very reason that their churches produce the craziest doctrines and continue to split into disagreeing sects. Just look at the controversies in the Methodist and Baptist groups.

You can think i'm wrong, but the fact that Protestants refuse to accept Paul's own words in 1 Cor. 1:10-13 about how Christ isn't split among disagreeing sects inherently proves all of Protestantism is false.

Well said.... How often are the heretics calling others "heretics"....Jesus will let us all know soon enough. There will be no excuses then....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Here is where your entire argument goes right off the tracks into being absolutely wrong. Protestantism is not "more correct". It simply swung to the opposite extreme of taking an unbiblical position. Because the papacy was corrupt, Protestants somehow concluded that all government is bad, including God's government.

I would argue that Protestantism is a lot more dangerous than Catholicism because of the clever way its adherents expertly sell lawless doctrines as Christian. Whether they are honest enough with themselves to admit or not, Protestants arrogantly believe that they are smart enough to figure out what is right and wrong for themselves, irrespective of God's commandments. It shows in their contempt for God's commandments, their contempt for the OT as a whole, and their frequent misuse of Paul and Christ's words.

As Richard Rex succinctly pointed out in his article about Martin Luther, Martin Luther's liberal approach to reading scripture is what paved the way for modern humanism to become prevalent in the West today.

As corrupt as Catholicism is, it has historically managed to keep entire groups of people united because there is government and a centralized authority. Protestantism, however, has served to do the exact opposite of uniting because its adherents hate the idea of being ruled by anybody, let alone God. It is for this very reason that their churches produce the craziest doctrines and continue to split into disagreeing sects. Just look at the controversies in the Methodist and Baptist groups.

You can think i'm wrong, but the fact that Protestants refuse to accept Paul's own words in 1 Cor. 1:10-13 about how Christ isn't split among disagreeing sects inherently proves all of Protestantism is false.

First, the Catholics are not Bible Alone. They are like the rest of the biblical cults (JW’s, Mormons, etcetera) in that they add their own extra biblical words to the Bible. So this creates the problem of authority. With a Protestant, I can at least show him or her the Bible in how their belief is false and they cannot argue tradition to say otherwise. The Protestants only appeal is to play some dishonest games with the original languages and or quote other verses out of context or ignore the verses you presented to them (of which I can point out to them).

Second, not all Protestants are the same. The Church of Christ (Which is Protestant) does not believe in Martin Luther’s Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism that turns God’s grace into a license for immorality. Granted, I disagree with the Church of Christ’s view of Initial Salvation in that we must be baptized first to be initially saved.

Three, while many Protestants (not all of them) do put on a big light and music show, I would not be caught dead in a Catholic Church because it looks evil. It’s got idols everywhere. They have weird confessional booths. They chant and throw that incense around. Some Catholic Churches have dead remains displayed openly. The worship of skulls is also done by certain Catholic groups. Then they do that whole odd thing with the Lord’s supper (Turning the true thing into abomination). They pray to Mary and it’s all about Mary (with Jesus taking a backstage). They wear holy garments and act all like they are holy because of that (and it is just soooo fake).

Four, if somebody asked me for a Catholic or Protestant to visit my home for me to do a Bible teaching for them, I would choose the Protestant because they are seeking to make the Bible their authority (despite their false doctrines). The Catholic to me would not appear to really know his Bible all that well unless he was a priest or something. Granted, I am not saying all Catholics on the planet may be that way, I am just sharing you my own experience. Also, if the Catholic brought in their idol statues or did their extra biblical nonsense in my home, I would tell them to stop. I don’t have to worry about that with a Protestant.

Five, I have not met too many spiritual Catholics with them truly knowing the Bible well. For them, they look at the Bible through the lens of the Catholic Church. My experience with with the average Catholics is that they are worldly and their faith is not spoke of. Protestants I know do talk about their faith openly.

Six, the pope (Head of the Catholic Church) is into world peace with the world’s religions. If that is the unity you are talking about that is not the kind of unity I would want to share in. Many Protestants would not want to join into that kind of unity.

Seven, Catholics sought to destroy the very Bible we have in our hands today (i.e. the King James Bible). The Vatican tried to kill King James and his translation. In fact, Catholics used to persecute those who had the Bible and they killed them even. Today, they have changed tactics. Instead of killing people who had the Bible, they help create a New Testament Greek Text with United Bible Societies called the Nestle and Aland Text (Which is where all your Modern Bibles come from today). Modern Bibles have been known to push Catholic doctrines and other false beliefs subtly. Granted, I use Modern Bibles to update the archaic words in the King James Bible, but Modern Bibles cannot be my authority (Because of the many problems inherent within them). So they are a spirit that is out to destroy or alter the Bible. They are of a spirit that worships does not seek to worship Jesus alone, but they are of the worship of many gods. That is why I would not want them to be at my Bible study teaching in my home. They are not on the same page at all.

Eight, the evils of the Catholic Church (to the killing of the saints among other things) is no light matter.

So I would say I would disagree with you big time.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Here is where your entire argument goes right off the tracks into being absolutely wrong. Protestantism is not "more correct". It simply swung to the opposite extreme of taking an unbiblical position. Because the papacy was corrupt, Protestants somehow concluded that all government is bad, including God's government.

I would argue that Protestantism is a lot more dangerous than Catholicism because of the clever way its adherents expertly sell lawless doctrines as Christian. Whether they are honest enough with themselves to admit or not, Protestants arrogantly believe that they are smart enough to figure out what is right and wrong for themselves, irrespective of God's commandments. It shows in their contempt for God's commandments, their contempt for the OT as a whole, and their frequent misuse of Paul and Christ's words.

As Richard Rex succinctly pointed out in his article about Martin Luther, Martin Luther's liberal approach to reading scripture is what paved the way for modern humanism to become prevalent in the West today.

As corrupt as Catholicism is, it has historically managed to keep entire groups of people united because there is government and a centralized authority. Protestantism, however, has served to do the exact opposite of uniting because its adherents hate the idea of being ruled by anybody, let alone God. It is for this very reason that their churches produce the craziest doctrines and continue to split into disagreeing sects. Just look at the controversies in the Methodist and Baptist groups.

You can think i'm wrong, but the fact that Protestants refuse to accept Paul's own words in 1 Cor. 1:10-13 about how Christ isn't split among disagreeing sects inherently proves all of Protestantism is false.

In addition, not all Protestants are Hyper Grace (Whereby they are like a George Sodini - see this article here). Many Protestants seek to obey God and live holy as best as they can. Granted, many of them (not all of them) do not believe you can be perfectly holy in this life (and they use 1 John 1:8 as a banner flag that they will always sin this side of Heaven). But there are those who don’t believe that way. There is one I know who believes in Sinless Perfection (in regards to righteous conduct). Yes, I know that most of them have a wrong view of sin and salvation and so they may not deal with sin properly (in every case). But the point here is that the Catholic is justifying sin blatantly and continually with his open idolatry (of bowing down to statues) and praying to Mary and the saints and with their false version of the Lord’s supper, and with their weird chants and prayer beads and confession booths, and even more stuff that’s weirder than a bag of cats.

 

[WalkInLight]

Here is where your entire argument goes right off the tracks into being absolutely wrong. Protestantism is not "more correct". It simply swung to the opposite extreme of taking an unbiblical position. Because the papacy was corrupt, Protestants somehow concluded that all government is bad, including God's government.

I would argue that Protestantism is a lot more dangerous than Catholicism because of the clever way its adherents expertly sell lawless doctrines as Christian. Whether they are honest enough with themselves to admit or not, Protestants arrogantly believe that they are smart enough to figure out what is right and wrong for themselves, irrespective of God's commandments. It shows in their contempt for God's commandments, their contempt for the OT as a whole, and their frequent misuse of Paul and Christ's words.

As Richard Rex succinctly pointed out in his article about Martin Luther, Martin Luther's liberal approach to reading scripture is what paved the way for modern humanism to become prevalent in the West today.

As corrupt as Catholicism is, it has historically managed to keep entire groups of people united because there is government and a centralized authority. Protestantism, however, has served to do the exact opposite of uniting because its adherents hate the idea of being ruled by anybody, let alone God. It is for this very reason that their churches produce the craziest doctrines and continue to split into disagreeing sects. Just look at the controversies in the Methodist and Baptist groups.

You can think i'm wrong, but the fact that Protestants refuse to accept Paul's own words in 1 Cor. 1:10-13 about how Christ isn't split among disagreeing sects inherently proves all of Protestantism is false.

Jesus was never interested in authority and "right" teaching from any group. Jesus is the teacher.
Love is a difficult emotional word, going from feeling affectionate towards someone to dying for them.

I have had a conversation where when I used love, it was thought of as the hollywood sense of icing on a cynical hard isolated life of survival and making do with what one can grasp and keep hold of.

Jesus was about service, seeing real need and meeting it. The structures and authority of society mattered little, it was the heart of believers set on loving those they met and interacted with.

It is true that keeping an open heart, seeing and accepting difficulties and setbacks is difficult to keep together, but that is carrying ones cross daily.
Religion often is just doing what is needed and hoping this is enough to be safe. And from one perspective this is actually true, but from another it leads to apathy and decay. Often people have tended to the idea of being right, being perfect in church structure and behaviour rather than seeing the needs around and truly loving others with an open heart.

Our emotions tend towards rejection of others, rising in anger because the stupid dolts still hold this heretical position, so God should blast them into hell, because that is what they deserve for opposing the clear and perfect way. This kind of emotional release can happen even after a few sentences, and the anger and judgmentalism that follows is appalling.

Once you begin to see Jesus has His people in lots of different places loving and caring, walking in His ways and giving Him praise, you begin to see its that path that matters and not our own insights or judgmentalism.

When people live so long now, it is a wonder many are still standing upon a rock and loving and helping as they walk.

God bless you

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus was never interested in authority and "right" teaching from any group. Jesus is the teacher.
Love is a difficult emotional word, going from feeling affectionate towards someone to dying for them.

I have had a conversation where when I used love, it was thought of as the hollywood sense of icing on a cynical hard isolated life of survival and making do with what one can grasp and keep hold of.

Jesus was about service, seeing real need and meeting it. The structures and authority of society mattered little, it was the heart of believers set on loving those they met and interacted with.

It is true that keeping an open heart, seeing and accepting difficulties and setbacks is difficult to keep together, but that is carrying ones cross daily.
Religion often is just doing what is needed and hoping this is enough to be safe. And from one perspective this is actually true, but from another it leads to apathy and decay. Often people have tended to the idea of being right, being perfect in church structure and behaviour rather than seeing the needs around and truly loving others with an open heart.

Our emotions tend towards rejection of others, rising in anger because the stupid dolts still hold this heretical position, so God should blast them into hell, because that is what they deserve for opposing the clear and perfect way. This kind of emotional release can happen even after a few sentences, and the anger and judgmentalism that follows is appalling.

Once you begin to see Jesus has His people in lots of different places loving and caring, walking in His ways and giving Him praise, you begin to see its that path that matters and not our own insights or judgmentalism.

When people live so long now, it is a wonder many are still standing upon a rock and loving and helping as they walk.

God bless you

This is not true. Jesus did care about what people believed over false beliefs (Matthew 22:23-33) (Also see Matthew 23). Did you not Jesus said there will be false Christ’s that will arise? The apostle Paul talks about how there are those who preach another Jesus. Peter talked about how there are false teachers who have eyes full of adultery and who cannot cease from sin. Jesus even said that we can judge righteously.

 

[WalkInLight]

This is not true. Jesus did care about what people believed over false beliefs (Matthew 22:23-33) (Also see Matthew 23). Did you not Jesus said there will be false Christ’s that will arise? The apostle Paul talks about how there are those who preach another Jesus. Peter talked about how there are false teachers who have eyes full of adultery and who cannot cease from sin. Jesus even said that we can judge righteously.

Authority and teaching comes from Jesus to the believer. No organisation has a veto on this teaching.

Jesus compares His teaching to those of false christs and false teachers who do not teach what Jesus teaches.

My point is Jesus did not appoint an organisation or group who were to control and be the edict makers for his followers like the Pope does with his statements in cannon law. The apostles were followers just as we are, and shared their insights into the emphasis and meaning of following Jesus and obeying His word.

I have been told by quite a few groups that I must be wrong because what I am sharing is not the same as their teacher. I need the right teacher and then I will see the truth. And it is here that testifies how heretical these folk are. If their teachers were echoing Jesus and His approach, then we would see the quotes and words. But often their teaching dismisses Jesus and His teaching to only apply to this group over there or that situation and not the general population. Ironically there are specific issues where there are situational contradictions where Paul acknowledges women in his fellowship group yet denies women from speaking in church or teaching men.

The word "teach" is a difficult word in this context. Jesus said to call no man "teacher" for the only "teacher" we have is the Lord. Teaching in the christian sense is explaining or expanding on the teaching given by the Lord or Jesus, not laying down new foundations or principles not held in scripture. So the RCC crosses this boundary 100% which is where I have a problem with their approach and calling the pope Jesus on earth.
Priests are not "father", but rather we are all ambassadors of the Lords ministry here on earth, a witness of His love working through our lives.

God bless you

 

[farouk]

@WalkInLight We do need the help of the gracious Holy Spirit of God in order truly to understand and appreciate Scripture doctrine, especially as it concerns the Person and Work of Christ.

 

[Grailhunter]

Comparisons and Perspectives

The words cult and heresy are usually used incorrectly. Still common usage but used outsider the parameters of their definitions and the definitions have changed. Get a hold of a 1950's dictionary and look the words up.

Cult....for the most part must be physically harmful to themselves or others and the mental harm can be worse and longer lasting than physical harm. Branch Davidian, Jim Jones, Heaven's Gate, Charles Mansion's group.

Not to be confused with occult....which involves idolatry, the devil and demons and incantations and fortune telling.

The word heresy, as it is now is mostly a misnomer. Once Christ's church was fractured the definition of heresy change to; A possibility of condemnation of any religion that is not your own and the people involved with it are all heretics. But the next guy might like their religion and the people, even if it is not their religion. So it is matter of perspective and personal beliefs.

But we are still going to use the words. My own definition of heresy is a belief that is blasphemous against God or denies the Deity of God or can lead people to Hell. The topic of the Trinity opens up a much broader discussion because throughout Christianity there are more than one formula for the Trinity. And written doctrines can venture off into fuzzy logic in application. For example; The church might professes a belief in the Trinity, but treat the Holy Spirit like it was not a Deity but rather the Holy Spirit of God....Part of that is the phycological affect of not giving the third member of the Trinity a name. It a spirit! Or a ghost! Boo! They may not worship or pray to the Holy Spirit or have hymns about the Holy Spirit.

So by my definition of heresy is that the Jehovah's Witnesses, OSAS, and Calvinists are heresies. But that does not mean they are not good people....but personal good is not going to get them to Heaven. So when Judgment Day comes they will be standing in front of Yeshua and He is going to ask them; So you do not believe I am a God and there is no Hell? Well they are going to get a big surprise. Or He will ask, So you think salvation is a license to sin? Or you think my Father is a monstrous puppet master that denied mankind free-will? Then they will be judged! Is it a sure thing they are going to Hell?....that is above my paygrade, Christ's judgment will be just.

The next question is; Should we excommunicate these people? Not associate with them? That is a good question. I don't have to worry about associating with Jehovah's Witnesses because they are a very to themselves people. But I go to so many different churches that there are OSAS and Calvinists in those churches and I do not take a survey. I much harder on all three on this forum because it is a matter of debate and I try to shake their tree to try to make them think and I do it as a warning to those that read the forum.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Authority and teaching comes from Jesus to the believer. No organisation has a veto on this teaching.

Jesus compares His teaching to those of false christs and false teachers who do not teach what Jesus teaches.

My point is Jesus did not appoint an organisation or group who were to control and be the edict makers for his followers like the Pope does with his statements in cannon law. The apostles were followers just as we are, and shared their insights into the emphasis and meaning of following Jesus and obeying His word.

I have been told by quite a few groups that I must be wrong because what I am sharing is not the same as their teacher. I need the right teacher and then I will see the truth. And it is here that testifies how heretical these folk are. If their teachers were echoing Jesus and His approach, then we would see the quotes and words. But often their teaching dismisses Jesus and His teaching to only apply to this group over there or that situation and not the general population. Ironically there are specific issues where there are situational contradictions where Paul acknowledges women in his fellowship group yet denies women from speaking in church or teaching men.

The word "teach" is a difficult word in this context. Jesus said to call no man "teacher" for the only "teacher" we have is the Lord. Teaching in the christian sense is explaining or expanding on the teaching given by the Lord or Jesus, not laying down new foundations or principles not held in scripture. So the RCC crosses this boundary 100% which is where I have a problem with their approach and calling the pope Jesus on earth.
Priests are not "father", but rather we are all ambassadors of the Lords ministry here on earth, a witness of His love working through our lives.

God bless you

The impression I got from your post is that it is not correct for me to judge the false beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses (or to state how they are false). Yet, the RCC (Roman Catholic Church) is just as guilty as the JW’s. It seems to be the common theme to many in this thread (who are not even JW) and their suggesting it is wrong for me to expose the JW’s false beliefs. This suggests to me that they are either liberal or they do not understand the Bible in what it really teaches.

But after re-reading your post, it could be read in such a way that you are condemning the JW religion. If this is the case, then praise GOD.

But if you are condemning the JW religion: I would have made your post more clear that you were condemning them. We should not be afraid to stand up to expose the darkness of other false religions or cults.

 

[theefaith]

So you believe Jehovah’s Witnesses of the WatchTower organization are really God’s genuine witnesses?
If so, then you need to go back to the beginning of the thread and check out what I had written on them.

no the apostles and their successors

 

[Bible Highlighter]

no the apostles and their successors

Well, there are no more apostles today because to be an apostle you had have seen the risen Christ. Paul says he is last of the apostles, as well. Ephesians says that the saints are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. But this really has nothing to do with why the JW’s are a false religion or biblical cult (Because they add unbiblical things to Scripture). The same is true for Catholics. They add unbiblical things to Scripture just like the JW’s. But again, this thread is not about Catholicism. Neither is this thread about whether there are apostles today. So please do not discuss these things here in detail. The point of this thread is discussing the reasons why the JW religion is false. It has nothing to do with your thinking that apostles exist today or that they had some kind of successors or something. The JW religion is false based of the silly anti-biblical things they believe and because of the false things they believed and did in history multiple times.

 

[theefaith]

Well, there are no more apostles today because to be an apostle you had have seen the risen Christ. Paul says he is last of the apostles, as well. Ephesians says that the saints are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. But this really has nothing to do with why the JW’s are a false religion or biblical cult (Because they add unbiblical things to Scripture). The same is true for Catholics. They add unbiblical things to Scripture just like the JW’s. But again, this thread is not about Catholicism. Neither is this thread about whether there are apostles today. So please do not discuss these things here in detail. The point of this thread is discussing the reasons why the JW religion is false. It has nothing to do with your thinking that apostles exist today or that they had some kind of successors or something. The JW religion is false based of the silly anti-biblical things they believe and because of the false things they believed and did in history multiple times.

yes we agree Jw’s Sda’s lds’s and the like are not the true church for one the church must be universal and these all
Came out of the burned over district in the 1800’s

scripture says there must be apostles Matt 28:19 acts 1;8
Until the end
End of time and the ends of the earth

 

[Bible Highlighter]

yes we agree Jw’s Sda’s lds’s and the like are not the true church for one the church must be universal and these all
Came out of the burned over district in the 1800’s

scripture says there must be apostles Matt 28:19 acts 1;8
Until the end
End of time and the ends of the earth

Matthew 28:19
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”

A disciple and an apostle are not the same thing. All believers are t be disciples (or disciplined ones in following Jesus Christ). But not all believers are apostles. Anyways, I see no mention here of apostles in this above verse.

Acts of the Apostles 1:8
“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”

Again, I see nothing here about how the apostles will last forever. It merely says that the apostles during their time would go unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The saints (believers) are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets (with Jesus being the chief cornerstone).

Ephesians 2:19-20 (NKJV)
“Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,”

While Jesus lives in the hearts of believers on a spiritual level, Jesus is not physically among us. Yet, we are built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ (who is the Incarnate Word). Jesus sits physically in the flesh at the right hand of God the Father in Heaven. The saints are built upon Jesus being the chief cornerstone. On top of Jesus being our foundation are the apostles and prophets. The saints are built upon the apostles and prophets and so logic dictates there are no more prophets or apostles because the saints (us) are built upon them just as we are built upon Jesus who is not physically among us anymore.

To be an apostle means you have witnessed the risen Lord Jesus Christ.
For Paul says the following in 1 Corinthians 9:1:

“Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?” (1 Corinthians 9:1) (NKJV).

The gift of an apostle was to have miraculous signs and wonders.

2 Corinthians 12:12
“Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.”

1 Corinthians 2:4-5
“And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.”

The Spirit was given to the apostles to bring in remembrance of what Jesus said and did with the apostles and not us because we did not walk physically with Jesus.

John 14:26
“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”

Paul is said to be the last apostle.

1 Corinthians 15:8-9
“And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.”

 

[theefaith]

Matthew 28:19
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”

A disciple and an apostle are not the same thing. All believers are t be disciples (or disciplined ones in following Jesus Christ). But not all believers are apostles. Anyways, I see no mention here of apostles in this above verse.

Vs 16 the eleven, the eleven are apostles

Acts of the Apostles 1:8
“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”

Again, I see nothing here about how the apostles will last forever. It merely says that the apostles during their time would go unto the uttermost part of the earth.

How did they get to America?
They must have successors
Moses in Matt 23 had successors and they had the same authority and power and it was taken from them Matt 21;43 and given to Peter and the apostles so naturally they too would have successors and Christ commanded obedience to them so same to the apostles and their successors!

The saints (believers) are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets (with Jesus being the chief cornerstone).

no the church is!
Believe are not even Christians but only catechumens

Ephesians 2:19-20 (NKJV)
“Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,”

While Jesus lives in the hearts of believers on a spiritual level, Jesus is not physically among us. Yet, we are built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ (who is the Incarnate Word). Jesus sits physically in the flesh at the right hand of God the Father in Heaven. The saints are built upon Jesus being the chief cornerstone. On top of Jesus being our foundation are the apostles and prophets. The saints are built upon the apostles and prophets and so logic dictates there are no more prophets or apostles because the saints (us) are built upon them just as we are built upon Jesus who is not physically among us anymore.

To be an apostle means you have witnessed the risen Lord Jesus Christ.
For Paul says the following in 1 Corinthians 9:1:

“Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?” (1 Corinthians 9:1) (NKJV).

The gift of an apostle was to have miraculous signs and wonders.

2 Corinthians 12:12
“Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.”

1 Corinthians 2:4-5
“And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.”

The Spirit was given to the apostles to bring in remembrance of what Jesus said and did with the apostles and not us because we did not walk physically with Jesus.

John 14:26
“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”

Paul is said to be the last apostle.

1 Corinthians 15:8-9
“And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.”

If something is no longer possible it is no longer required

the triple office of apostle remains to teach to govern and to sanctify

Authority of the Apostles!

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission!

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well until Christ returns in glory!

apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!

Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments for the forgiveness of sin.


The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4

Christian rule of faith is not the Bible alone! But the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20


The teaching of Peter and the apostles and successors is the teaching of Christ!

Authority in what they teach and not in a person in an office!

Jesus is not our salvation: only what He taught?

Lk 2:30 Matt 16:16 Jesus in His person is our salvation, not only in what He taught!
Matt 16:13 not what do people say about what I teach, but whom do people say the I am!

The teaching of the successors of Moses not their person?

The successors of Moses sit in the seat of Moses Matt 23:1

Peters confession not Peters person? Matt 16:18

You give the keys to a person not to a confession!

Acts 1:26 they choose Mathias not the teaching of Mathias!

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission as Christ! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

We must be taught by Peter, the apostles, and their successors! Lk 10:16 Matt 28:19 Jn 21:17 Jn 16:13 acts 2:42

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Matthew 18:17
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

It is a thing unthinkable! To refuse to hear the church is to refuse to hear Christ!
Christ and His church are one. Acts 9:4

Spiritual Fathers have care for our souls!

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:

Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That makes Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!

Obedience of the faithful Christians or spiritual anarchy of the heretical fundamentalists!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If something is no longer possible it is no longer required

the triple office of apostle remains to teach to govern and to sanctify

Authority of the Apostles!

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission!

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well until Christ returns in glory!

apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!

Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments for the forgiveness of sin.


The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4

Christian rule of faith is not the Bible alone! But the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20


The teaching of Peter and the apostles and successors is the teaching of Christ!

Authority in what they teach and not in a person in an office!

Jesus is not our salvation: only what He taught?

Lk 2:30 Matt 16:16 Jesus in His person is our salvation, not only in what He taught!
Matt 16:13 not what do people say about what I teach, but whom do people say the I am!

The teaching of the successors of Moses not their person?

The successors of Moses sit in the seat of Moses Matt 23:1

Peters confession not Peters person? Matt 16:18

You give the keys to a person not to a confession!

Acts 1:26 they choose Mathias not the teaching of Mathias!

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission as Christ! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

We must be taught by Peter, the apostles, and their successors! Lk 10:16 Matt 28:19 Jn 21:17 Jn 16:13 acts 2:42

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Matthew 18:17
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

It is a thing unthinkable! To refuse to hear the church is to refuse to hear Christ!
Christ and His church are one. Acts 9:4

Spiritual Fathers have care for our souls!

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:

Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That makes Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!

Obedience of the faithful Christians or spiritual anarchy of the heretical fundamentalists!

Well, sorry. I don't agree. No offense, but I believe you are blinded by the extra biblical beliefs by your church just as the JW's are. Anyways, discussion on whether the apostles continued is really is not the topic of this thread. This thread is about the reasons why JW's are false. I know. You think your church is the continuation of the apostles as one reason why you think the JW's are not correct. But this actually runs contrary to Scripture. Then again, if you cannot see bowing down to statues as idolatry, I don't think you will be convinced by Scripture on how apostles have ceased. Anyways, this really is not a good argument against the JW religion in my humble opinion (Seeing Scripture makes it clear apostleship has ended).

 

[theefaith]

Well, sorry. I don't agree. No offense, but I believe you are blinded by the extra biblical beliefs by your church just as the JW's are. Anyways, discussion on whether the apostles continued is really is not the topic of this thread. This thread is about the reasons why JW's are false. I know. You think your church is the continuation of the apostles as one reason why you think the JW's are not correct. But this actually runs contrary to Scripture. Then again, if you cannot see bowing down to statues as idolatry, I don't think you will be convinced by Scripture on how apostles have ceased. Anyways, this really is not a good argument against the JW religion in my humble opinion (Seeing Scripture makes it clear apostleship has ended).

the church wrote the New Testament scripture

if there are no apostles then there is no salvation! No church! No sacrifice of Christ no sacraments! no means of grace!

Truth must be revealed by God, and in its fullness in the sacred deposit of faith by Christ to his church! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 and must be taught by the church, or proposed for our belief by the apostles!
Matt 28:19-20 Lk 1:4 Jn 20:21 acts 8:31 Rom 1:5 col 2:7 1 Tim 3:15
matt 18:17

Christ and His church are one! acts 9:4 Acts 5:32 Jn 15:1-5

Truth is immutable! Cannot change!

And same truths revealed by Christ and taught by the church are always believed and taught from the beginning when Christ taught his church in person! Jude 1:3 the faith once delivered to the saints or the deposit of faith eph 4:5 one faith!


Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13)

The evidence of true faith is humble subjection and obedience to Christ & His holy church!

The rule of faith for Christians is Jesus Christ Jn 14:6 and His church! Matt 18:17 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

True Christians cannot listen to the errors of excommunicated heretics, but we listen faithfully to Christ, in the bosom of holy mother church, the only ark of salvation!
1 pet 3:20-21 matt 18:17 matt 16:18-19 matt 28:19-20 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-23

Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13)

Christ and His church are one! (Acts 9:4 eph 5:31 Jn 15:1-5)

Rejection of the one true church or its teaching is rejection of Christ and God!

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32 Jn 8:12 & Matt 5:14

 

[Bible Highlighter]

the church wrote the New Testament scripture

No. The Scriptures were inspired by God (2 Timothy 3:16). So it was God who is the ultimate author.

if there are no apostles then there is no salvation! No church!

The early church existed, but the Catholic Church is not like the early church by a long shot because there was no RCC practices done by the early church. Only the Catholic Church that emerged later in history added the extra biblical Catholic sacraments (of which we do not find in the Bible). Yes, you have sacraments like baptism, but it is not called that in the Bible and you make up the whole infancy baptism thing.

No sacrifice of Christ no sacraments! no means of grace!

There is no such thing as the extra biblical Catholic sacraments because they are not written in the Bible.

Truth must be revealed by God, and in its fullness in the sacred deposit of faith by Christ to his church! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 and must be taught by the church, or proposed for our belief by the apostles!
Matt 28:19-20 Lk 1:4 Jn 20:21 acts 8:31 Rom 1:5 col 2:7 1 Tim 3:15
matt 18:17

Christ and His church are one! acts 9:4 Acts 5:32 Jn 15:1-5

Truth is immutable! Cannot change!

And same truths revealed by Christ and taught by the church are always believed and taught from the beginning when Christ taught his church in person! Jude 1:3 the faith once delivered to the saints or the deposit of faith eph 4:5 one faith!


Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13)

The evidence of true faith is humble subjection and obedience to Christ & His holy church!

The rule of faith for Christians is Jesus Christ Jn 14:6 and His church! Matt 18:17 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

True Christians cannot listen to the errors of excommunicated heretics, but we listen faithfully to Christ, in the bosom of holy mother church, the only ark of salvation!
1 pet 3:20-21 matt 18:17 matt 16:18-19 matt 28:19-20 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-23

Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13)

Christ and His church are one! (Acts 9:4 eph 5:31 Jn 15:1-5)

Rejection of the one true church or its teaching is rejection of Christ and God!

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32 Jn 8:12 & Matt 5:14

The Catholic Church is not the one true church because they bow down to idol statues, and worship many gods like the saints and they turn the Lord’s supper into an abomination not described in Scripture. Rome does not change. They used to be into polytheism before they supposedly went Christian. You guys worship skulls in some circles. You uplift men in holy clothing. It’s a joke. Sorry. It just is. It’s so obviously fake when compared to a study of the Bible alone and comparing the early church with your church. The two are not alike in any sense of the word. But again, this thread I don’t think is for you because you are not really concerned about giving reasons as to why the JW religion is false. You are just speaking about your false religion. That does not help things. Again, either participate in the thread in exposing the JW religion from a normal biblical perspective and or based on why that cult is false from general evidence or move on. This thread is not about Catholicism that you are promoting. Catholicism is no different than the JW religion because you both added something extra to the Bible that contradicts it. So you are not really helping things here.

 

[JohnPaul]

No. The Scriptures were inspired by God (2 Timothy 3:16). So it was God who is the ultimate author.



The early church existed, but the Catholic Church is not the same thing as the early church by a long shot because there was no RCC practices done by the early church. Only the Catholic Church that emerged later in history added the extra biblical Catholic sacraments (of which we do not find in the Bible). Yes, you have sacraments like baptism, but it is not called that in the Bible and you make up the whole infancy baptism thing.



There is no such thing as the extra biblical Catholic sacraments because they are not written in the Bible.



The Catholic Church is not the one true church because they bow down to idol statues, and worship many gods like the saints and they turn the Lord’s supper into an abomination not described in Scripture. Rome does not change. They used to be into polytheism before they supposedly went Christian. You guys worship skulls in some circles. You uplift men in holy clothing. It’s a joke. Sorry. It just is. It’s so obviously fake when compared to a study of the Bible alone and comparing the early church with your church. The two are not alike in any sense of the word. But again, this thread I don’t think is for you because you are not really concerned about giving reasons as to why the JW religion is false. You are just speaking about your false religion. That does not help things. Again, either participate in the thread in exposing the JW religion from a normal biblical perspective and or based on why that cult is false from general evidence or move on. This thread is not about Catholicism that you are promoting. Catholicism is no different than the JW religion because you both added something extra to the Bible that contradicts it. So you are not really helping things here.

What extras have Jehovah’s Witnesses added, are they not like the Apostles and going out and preaching God’s word?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Apostles were to confirm the Word of God (like Scripture) by miracles that they did.

Mark 16:20 says,
“And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”

For example: Do you see Christians today speaking in tongues and prophesying when they first believe the gospel message (for salvation) as a normative thing? No. Yet, we see this in the early church. So this tells you things have changed.

We don’t need to keep confirming the apostle’s words as authoritative Scripture. We know it is true based on many good reasons or evidences.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What extras have Jehovah’s Witnesses added, are they not like the Apostles and going out and preaching God’s word?

I provided my reasons in the beginning of this thread why the JW religion is false.