Rebellion, freewill, and covid

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Karl Peters

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2021
1,472
680
113
66
Fontana
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I love "freewill". It is what makes me alive and a person. I mean if I, as a person, was just a fancy robot made by God, or some zombie being totally control by some spiritual power, it just wouldn't seem so good. Happily God didn't make us to be like that. He made us alive and that meant giving us "freewill".

Never-the-less, with that freewill came the ability to make good and bad choices!! A bad choice, and truly the only real bad choice, is to not listen to God.

As the Great I AM, He is always around. Indeed He holds all things together with His hands, so we can talk to Him about all things. We have the freewill to choose Him, seek Him, and listen to Him - or not. We can choose to believe He is not around, if we want. He gave us freewill which enables us to think what we want and make the choice we want, given the circumstances.

The problem with not seeking Him of course is that we don't really know the best things for us - He does. Another problem is that He has the ability to control up the circumstances!

For example - He could stop Covid! He could do it right now!! Yet He does want us seeking Him so He can counsel, advise, and teach us. It's good for us to have freewill, but even that works best if we get counsel, advice, and teaching from the Lord our God! So sometimes He has set up circumstances which encourage us to seek Him


Ps 78:34 When He killed them, then they sought Him, And returned and searched diligently for God;

So why do we have this Covid pandemic, with lots of people getting sick and even dying? It just might be that He is again trying to get us to actually seek Him, and His wisdom.

Dan 12:4 “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”

Being a merciful God; He makes sure knowledge will increase. Vaccines started coming from our increase in knowledge about a 100 years ago, and that increase in knowledge has been awesome for people. As a kid back in the 1960's I remember seeing a kid going to our school who had major trouble waking. I was told he had Polio, but when I had kids I never saw that at my kids schools. A vaccine pretty much did away with it. And as a kid I remember that kids had to - I repeat - had to get vaccines in order to go to school. It of course was the smart thing to do. My kids did get vaccines shots.

So why, or what bit of logic are we getting, that we now think it is not wise to get vaccinated from Corvid? It has become more and more clear that while the vaccine might not completely rid us of the possibility of getting Covid it massively helps. It is saving lives, keeping people from getting really sick, and reducing the effects on our society, yet many people don't see the wisdom in getting it.

Ok - I am not saying that everyone needs to get it. A person could be living on a desert island all by themselves. And I understand that God gave us the freewill to make choices. I also understand that God can do miracles and heal us, but He also made a connection between listening to Him (which is wise) and healing us.

Ex 15:26 and said, “If you diligently heed the voice of the LORD your God and do what is right in His sight, give ear to His commandments and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought on the Egyptians. For I am the LORD who heals you.”

So we have variance in the Covid vaccine, and because people didn't use wisdom and get vaccinated we as a nation (supposedly under God) is dealing with another round. It might have had an effect anyway, but primarily the problem is with unvaccinated people - those who choose not to get the vaccine.

Ok - I don't always "heed the voice of the Lord" either. I sometime get sick. And I clearly see that I can get rebellious. Still, He also had me working in Christian healing ministries, so I know He can heal. He told me He liked me in that ministry because I listened to Him. I didn't really like it, though I saw lots of miracles. I didn't like it when I didn't see the miracles needed - but He has His reasons - and He is have known to say that He can't do great miracles because of our disbelief.

So believe in Him, and that means you believe He is there to get wisdom from. And if He has cause knowledge to increase, like the knowledge of man to now make helpful vaccines - what are you going to hear from Him if not the wise thing to do?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Josho

An Apologetic Sheepdog

Well-Known Member
Aug 12, 2021
975
348
83
66
Atlanta, Ga
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So we have variance in the Covid vaccine, and because people didn't use wisdom and get vaccinated we as a nation (supposedly under God) is dealing with another round. It might have had an effect anyway, but primarily the problem is with unvaccinated people - those who choose not to get the vaccine.

That is a totally unfounded presumption devoid of any legitimate factual support whatsoever and nothing more than a logical fallacy appealing to a presumption of legitimacy and a circular statement.
 

Karl Peters

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2021
1,472
680
113
66
Fontana
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That is a totally unfounded presumption devoid of any legitimate factual support whatsoever and nothing more than a logical fallacy appealing to a presumption of legitimacy and a circular statement.

What devoid of logic is thinking God is not there to talk to and that He is not going to give us wise advice - so you can say something is devoid of logic and not provide any support for the ridiculous statement - but that is clearly seen through.

Still - you have the freewill to think God is not there to give us wisdom, increase knowledge, help us by providing cures, - but who then is the fool?
 

An Apologetic Sheepdog

Well-Known Member
Aug 12, 2021
975
348
83
66
Atlanta, Ga
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What devoid of logic is thinking God is not there to talk to and that He is not going to give us wise advice - so you can say something is devoid of logic and not provide any support for the ridiculous statement - but that is clearly seen through.

You need to learn to read then comprehend that which you do before responding with unrelated straw man gibberish as you just did.

The statement I made is 100% factual and true ( easily verifiable) and I made no mention of "logic" ( devoid or otherwise)
 

Karl Peters

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2021
1,472
680
113
66
Fontana
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You need to learn to read then comprehend that which you do before responding with unrelated straw man gibberish as you just did.

The statement I made is 100% factual and true ( easily verifiable) and I made no mention of "logic" ( devoid or otherwise)
What - another quick accusatory unsupported statement. Who are you listening to?
 

Addy

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2020
4,288
4,467
113
61
Ontario
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
You need to learn to read then comprehend that which you do before responding with unrelated straw man gibberish as you just did.
YOU need to learn RESPECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

These forums have enough BULLIES...we don't need new ones. Speak without insulting and demeaning the person you are speaking to.
 
Last edited:

An Apologetic Sheepdog

Well-Known Member
Aug 12, 2021
975
348
83
66
Atlanta, Ga
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
YOU need to learn RESPECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

These forums have enough BULLIES...we don't need new ones. Speak without insulting and demeaning the person you are speaking to.

And you need to learn that respect is EARNED ( not given)

Countering a incorrect point is not "bullying" and if you go up and detail read...….

You will see i addressed the point (not the person) in any way and only AFTER I was "insulted" ( see #3) above did I respond.

He set the stage for my next response ( a do unto others situation)

So, make sure you have a clear understanding of situations before you comment in the future.
 

Addy

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2020
4,288
4,467
113
61
Ontario
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
You need to learn to read then comprehend that which you do before responding with unrelated straw man gibberish as you just did.

These are FORUMS... RESPECT is integral for GOOD and HEALTHY flowing communication... RESPECT is the basis of all conversation... and that should NOT have to be pointed out to a "CHRISTIAN"... but in the world of hiding behind a computer... SADLY this is often NOT the case.

In the above quote... you have accused Karl of having low reading comprehension... making unrelated statements... speaking nonsense ( gibberish). DOES that make you FEEL SUPERIOR???

I have learned many lessons here... I don't RESPECT bullies. Speak.. and allow others their style of speaking... NO one is forcing you to contribute to these conversations.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

An Apologetic Sheepdog

Well-Known Member
Aug 12, 2021
975
348
83
66
Atlanta, Ga
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In the above quote... you have accused Karl of having low reading comprehension... making unrelated statements... speaking nonsense ( gibberish). DOES that make you FEEL SUPERIOR???

Did you miss the part where he directly implied I was "devoid of logic" and alluded to being a fool first?

RESPECT is integral for GOOD and HEALTHY flowing communication... RESPECT is the basis of all conversation... and that should NOT have to be pointed out to a "CHRISTIAN"

How then would you then critique Jesus when he referred to the Pharisees as sons of Satan, brood of vipers and so forth in some of their "communications" ?
 

Addy

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2020
4,288
4,467
113
61
Ontario
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Did you miss the part where he directly implied I was "devoid of logic" and alluded to being a fool first?
Two wrongs don't make a right... I have been watching you... and this is the thread I decided to focus on. Karl shared his heart in the first post... YOU chose to come right in and knock him off.

How then would you then critique Jesus when he referred to the Pharisees as sons of Satan, brood of vipers and so forth in some of their "communications" ?
YOU are NOT JESUS... LOL You are one contributor within these forums. But to answer your question... I would say HE was exercising RIGHTEOUS ANGER.

That is a totally unfounded presumption devoid of any legitimate factual support whatsoever and nothing more than a logical fallacy appealing to a presumption of legitimacy and a circular statement.

This was your FIRST post to Karl... NOTHING but insults... and NOT cool.... Just saying.

Next step is to report you. Thought I would share my thoughts first... to give you an opportunity to finesse your "style".
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I love "freewill". It is what makes me alive and a person. I mean if I, as a person, was just a fancy robot made by God, or some zombie being totally control by some spiritual power, it just wouldn't seem so good. Happily God didn't make us to be like that. He made us alive and that meant giving us "freewill".

Never-the-less, with that freewill came the ability to make good and bad choices!! A bad choice, and truly the only real bad choice, is to not listen to God.

As the Great I AM, He is always around. Indeed He holds all things together with His hands, so we can talk to Him about all things. We have the freewill to choose Him, seek Him, and listen to Him - or not. We can choose to believe He is not around, if we want. He gave us freewill which enables us to think what we want and make the choice we want, given the circumstances.

The problem with not seeking Him of course is that we don't really know the best things for us - He does. Another problem is that He has the ability to control up the circumstances!

For example - He could stop Covid! He could do it right now!! Yet He does want us seeking Him so He can counsel, advise, and teach us. It's good for us to have freewill, but even that works best if we get counsel, advice, and teaching from the Lord our God! So sometimes He has set up circumstances which encourage us to seek Him


Ps 78:34 When He killed them, then they sought Him, And returned and searched diligently for God;

So why do we have this Covid pandemic, with lots of people getting sick and even dying? It just might be that He is again trying to get us to actually seek Him, and His wisdom.

Dan 12:4 “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”

Being a merciful God; He makes sure knowledge will increase. Vaccines started coming from our increase in knowledge about a 100 years ago, and that increase in knowledge has been awesome for people. As a kid back in the 1960's I remember seeing a kid going to our school who had major trouble waking. I was told he had Polio, but when I had kids I never saw that at my kids schools. A vaccine pretty much did away with it. And as a kid I remember that kids had to - I repeat - had to get vaccines in order to go to school. It of course was the smart thing to do. My kids did get vaccines shots.

So why, or what bit of logic are we getting, that we now think it is not wise to get vaccinated from Corvid? It has become more and more clear that while the vaccine might not completely rid us of the possibility of getting Covid it massively helps. It is saving lives, keeping people from getting really sick, and reducing the effects on our society, yet many people don't see the wisdom in getting it.

Ok - I am not saying that everyone needs to get it. A person could be living on a desert island all by themselves. And I understand that God gave us the freewill to make choices. I also understand that God can do miracles and heal us, but He also made a connection between listening to Him (which is wise) and healing us.

Ex 15:26 and said, “If you diligently heed the voice of the LORD your God and do what is right in His sight, give ear to His commandments and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought on the Egyptians. For I am the LORD who heals you.”

So we have variance in the Covid vaccine, and because people didn't use wisdom and get vaccinated we as a nation (supposedly under God) is dealing with another round. It might have had an effect anyway, but primarily the problem is with unvaccinated people - those who choose not to get the vaccine.

Ok - I don't always "heed the voice of the Lord" either. I sometime get sick. And I clearly see that I can get rebellious. Still, He also had me working in Christian healing ministries, so I know He can heal. He told me He liked me in that ministry because I listened to Him. I didn't really like it, though I saw lots of miracles. I didn't like it when I didn't see the miracles needed - but He has His reasons - and He is have known to say that He can't do great miracles because of our disbelief.

So believe in Him, and that means you believe He is there to get wisdom from. And if He has cause knowledge to increase, like the knowledge of man to now make helpful vaccines - what are you going to hear from Him if not the wise thing to do?
I weighed getting Covid again against the unknown effects of the vaccines and decided I'd go with getting Covid again, which I might have again.

I got Covid the first time last November because a couple of people I work with did not quarantine themselves when they knew they'd been directly exposed to it and one even had it. And now the same thing is happening, and it sure changes your perspective on the matter of people's rights and freedoms vs. the good of other people. I don't think we should do nothing at all about this. The problem is, the things that are being done aren't very well thought out. We do not have wise leadership here in the US. And apparently not in other countries as well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Karl Peters

Addy

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2020
4,288
4,467
113
61
Ontario
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
I got Covid the first time last November because a couple of people I work with did not quarantine themselves when they knew they'd been directly exposed to it and one even had it. And now the same thing is happening and it sure changes your perspective on the matter of people's rights vs. the good of other people. I don't think we should do nothing at all about this. The problem is, the things that are being done aren't very well thought out.
OH Ferris.... I am sooooooo sorry to hear this report. Are you starting to feel sick?? And how sick did you get the first time??

I have opted NOT to get vaccinated due to my lifestyle... I rarely go out... maybe twice a week to the grocery store and I get there right for opening... I wear my mask and then come home... I live alone.... but my daughter lives in a large city and her work demands travel... She opted to get vaccinated and I supported her 100%. I hate the politics of this.... It's a medical crisis... NOT a political one.
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,997
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
So we have variance in the Covid vaccine, and because people didn't use wisdom and get vaccinated we as a nation (supposedly under God) is dealing with another round. It might have had an effect anyway, but primarily the problem is with unvaccinated people - those who choose not to get the vaccine.
You are doing exactly what the evil politicians, public health officials, and lying media are doing. Demonizing the unvaccinated. Which means that you are ignorant about (1) the whole COVID Scamdemic, (2) the way vaccines work, (3)the way viruses behave and mutate, and (4) the way bio-weapons work. COVID-19 and ALL the so-called "vaccines" are actually bio-weapons to either kill people, make them sick, or bring on debilitating serious adverse effects. Check out serious ethical medical doctors who are fighting the scam.

COVID has nothing to do with God and everything to do with Satan, the Great Reset, and the New World Order. Jesus said that the devil's agenda is to (1) STEAL, (2) KILL, AND (3) DESTROY. And that is precisely what has been going on since January 2020. However, God is allowing this evil to spread around the world, since it is also a test for believers to stand up to the machinations of evildoers and refuse to worship at the altar of COVID-Moloch!
 

Addy

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2020
4,288
4,467
113
61
Ontario
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
COVID has nothing to do with God and everything to do with Satan, the Great Reset, and the New World Order. Jesus said that the devil's agenda is to (1) STEAL, (2) KILL, AND (3) DESTROY. And that is precisely what has been going on since January 2020. However, God is allowing this evil to spread around the world, since it is also a test for believers to stand up to the machinations of evildoers and refuse to worship at the altar of COVID-Moloch!
THAT is your OPINION Enoch.... YOU refuse to speak for yourself... You have been going on and on for months about this. I feel so sad for you.
You have demonized those who don't agree with you... HOW is that any better?? Don't bother answering... I really do not enjoy running into you.
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,997
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
THAT is your OPINION Enoch....
You need to be able to separate facts from opinions and fiction. And as far as I'm concerned you have yet to focus on the issues rather than attack individuals -- particularly myself. Keep it up and you will be reported for personal attacks.
 

Addy

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2020
4,288
4,467
113
61
Ontario
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
You need to be able to separate facts from opinions and fiction. And as far as I'm concerned you have yet to focus on the issues rather than attack individuals -- particularly myself. Keep it up and you will be reported for personal attacks.

You need to learn to speak for yourself.... that is all I said... Go ahead report me...

THAT is your OPINION Enoch.... YOU refuse to speak for yourself... You have been going on and on for months about this. I feel so sad for you.
You have demonized those who don't agree with you... HOW is that any better?? Don't bother answering... I really do not enjoy running into you.

There is NO personal attack here... I have stated facts.
 

An Apologetic Sheepdog

Well-Known Member
Aug 12, 2021
975
348
83
66
Atlanta, Ga
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Two wrongs don't make a right... I have been watching you... and this is the thread I decided to focus on. Karl shared his heart in the first post... YOU chose to come right in and knock him off.

So, you are stalking me?

YOU are NOT JESUS... LOL You are one contributor within these forums. But to answer your question... I would say HE was exercising RIGHTEOUS ANGER.

Who are "you" to make such a declaration with nothing to shore it up as if that is some level of authority?


This was your FIRST post to Karl... NOTHING but insults... and NOT cool.... Just saying.

Pot meet Kettle
 

Addy

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2020
4,288
4,467
113
61
Ontario
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
I have said my peace. Humility is such a beautiful attribute and sadly... it seems to be the one least found in so many Christians.