Regeneration before or after saving faith
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reformed1689
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First, foreknowledge does not mean foresight. It means knowing that person in an intimate way.Ok, but are you going to explain why?
Second, Christ did not die for the sins of every person.
Third, just because it is commanded to preach the Gospel to every nation does not mean each person is elect or even has the potential to be elect.
Fourth, it does not say that God's will is to save each individual person. If that were the case, all would be saved.
Dcopymope
Well-Known Member
I can understand this concept of limited atonement, because while John does state Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world, its only those who believe in Jesus, those who accept the ransom he paid for our souls that are saved.
True
Well its not within Gods will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. This isn't a one way street however, God is giving humanity a choice, he isn't forcing anyone. You can either accept the ransom, the bailout as your get out of jail free card, or you can reject it, see your day in court, and be judged according to your works. So this kind of goes back to your third point, that not all are willing or capable of accepting the ransom.
I've never liked the word Regenerated, or at least the manner in which it has been understood, as some try to make it sound like some mystical phenomenon takes place once one accepts the Gospel of Christ. Of which, not a single Christian, worth mentioning, can claim that is what happened before, upon, or after, their conversion. The attestation is clearly and demonstrably, just not there.
So yes, as I implied, it occurs after, but it is a very slow and natural process. The more you hear and study the Word, the more that your understanding grasps its profundity, the more that you are able to articulate and impart your faith, you will commensurately become edified and regenerated.
It's called maturity, that is, appreciating the grace that we are under and understanding why it was necessary, and being able to differentiate between good and evil, which requires wisdom and understanding, and then to act accordingly.
Many are saved, but not all are edified and regenerated to its full capacity, ...or even close in many cases (as can be said about myself).
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SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
Seeing that faith is a fruit of the Spirit, per Galatians 5:22, that leaves faith coming after regeneration as the error.
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
Foreknowledge is the Greek is a verb, proginosko, which means God is doing something in foreknowing ppl. This is Him electing ppl unto salvation. Whom He did foreknow[proginosko] He also did predestinate to become conformed to the image of His Son[Romans 8:29].Hmm, well, in every dictionary I've seen, foresight is just a synonym of foreknowledge, meaning the same thing, so.
I can understand this concept of limited atonement, because while John does state Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world, its only those who believe in Jesus, those who accept the ransom he paid for our souls that are saved.
True
Well its not within Gods will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. This isn't a one way street however, God is giving humanity a choice, he isn't forcing anyone. You can either accept the ransom, the bailout as your get out of jail free card, or you can reject it, see your day in court, and be judged according to your works. So this kind of goes back to your third point, that not all are willing or capable of accepting the ransom.
Anthony D'Arienzo
Well-Known Member
Eph1....does not start at verse 12...3-11 explain why12,13 take place.
Preacher4Truth
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So you accomplished some feats to earn a gift? You repented while spirituality dead in sin and in so doing you were rewarded for your accomplishment?
Got it.
I understand your gospel. It isn't the Gospel of grace at all, it is salvation by merit. It was deserved due to some thing you did. That is not grace at all. Perhaps nehemiah6 you will wake up to this fact.
Actually, the Lord draws all men to Himself. It's up to us whether or not we respond in faith. The act of responding is what causes us to become born again and regenerated.
Paul Christensen
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What are Clavinists? Is Glenn Gould, whose recording called "The Well Tempered Clavier" one of them? I didn't think they deal with theological issues. All they did was play the piano in concerts!
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
So your act of response saved you.
Got it.
To the contrary it is God who has caused us to born again; 1 Peter 1:3. Yet you claim to have done this by "responding."
I'm not left wondering whether you or God is correct here.
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
That is not what John 12:32 teaches. The word 'draw' in that verse is helko, pronounced hel-koo-o, and it means to literally drag off, lead, impel, draw with an inward power. It is used in John 18:10 when Peter drew his sword. It is used in John 21:11 when Peter drew the net to shore. It is also used in Acts of the Apostles 16:19 when the drew Paul and Silas into the marketplace. And also in Acts of the Apostles 21:30 when they drew Paul out of the synagogue and shut the door behind him.
In all of these verses, it shows how effective helko is. When they are drawn, they come. That is what helko avers. So, if god draws all, then all are saved.
It is also used in John 6:44, meaning those the Father draws, comes.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
You say your act (responding) saved you. 1 Peter 1:3 denies your teaching and declares it false.
Wonder who is correct, you, or Scripture? I bet you're banking on you being correct based upon your own reasoning. You teach response saves.
Its collaborative. God draws all men to himself. It's up to us to believe in Christ's ressurection for sin.
According to that passage, ALL should come to the faith then. This can't be because not all who are drawn will submit to Christ's Lordship.
If people don't respond the how can God move their heart to conversion?
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
No my friend. Nowhere does the Greek word helko mean that God draws and those who choose to obey come. In none of those passages I cited that uses that word does it mean that. Acts of the Apostles 16:19, some versions use the word 'dragged', as that is what they really did to Paul and Silas.
So this can not mean that God is drawing everybody whoever lived. That is where ppl go off the rails in their theology when they try to posit that into their belief that world means 'everybody whoever lived'.
Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.[2 John 2:15]
In that verse, world does not mean everybody whoever lived. I can not mean that, because if it did, then if we love everybody without exception, then the love of the Father is not in us. Which goes against loving our enemies.
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
Wrong my friend. Man does not boast in his salvation. You have man boasting as God does 1/2 the saving and they do the other 1/2. "That dog won't hunt." Dr. Voddie Baucham
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
Wrong again my friend.
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.[John 6:37]
Everyone the Father elected from before the creation of the world[Ephesians 1:4], the Father gave them to His Son to be their Surety. And none of them He shall lose.
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