Regeneration before or after saving faith

[SovereignGrace]

You say your act (responding) saved you. 1 Peter 1:3 denies your teaching and declares it false.

Wonder who is correct, you, or Scripture? I bet you're banking on you being correct based upon your own reasoning. You teach response saves.

Throw in 1 Corinthians 1:26ff. Then sprinkle in Ephesians 1:19-20. The very same power that rose the Christ's body from the dead is the very same power that resurrects the spiritually dead from their dead state in sin. And they think they accomplished their salvation by making a decision.

 

[friend of]

No my friend. Nowhere does the Greek word helko mean that God draws and those who choose to obey come.

John 12:32 says he draws all men to himself

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Actually, the Lord draws all men to Himself. It's up to us whether or not we respond in faith. The act of responding is what causes us to become born again and regenerated.

Not understanding the verse does not make it say what you want.

 

[SovereignGrace]

John 12:32 says he draws all men to himself

And again my friend, that word translated helko means to literally drag off, to lead, impel, to draw with an inward power. If God draws all men to Himself, then all are saved. Are you a universalist? I'd bet dollars to donuts you are not. So, then when we look at that word 'draw' in John 12:32, this can not mean everybody without exception.

 

[SovereignGrace]

John 12:32 says he draws all men to himself

But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the market place before the authorities,[Acts of the Apostles 16:19]

'Dragged' in that verse is helko which is the exact same word used for 'draw' in John 12:32. If what you are saying is true concerning that verse, everybody is saved, as all the Father draws[helko in John 6:37, too] will come to Him, and they are saved.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Not understanding the verse does not make it say what you want.

I have shown him in 3 or 4 posts the meaning of the word 'draw' in the Greek and he just keeps posting the same old response, "John 12:32 says he draws all men to himself."

 

[friend of]

And again my friend, that word translated helko means to literally drag off, to lead, impel, to draw with an inward power.

Then why do they choose not to cooperate? It says he draws all men to himself

 

[SovereignGrace]

Then why do they choose not to cooperate? It says he draws all men to himself

Again, go back and reread the posts where I showed that the Greek word used for ‘draw’/‘dragged’ means they will come. John 6:37, John 12:32, John 18:10, John 21:11, Acts of the Apostles 16:19, Acts of the Apostles 21:30, and also James 2:6.

When Peter drew the sword, it came.
When Peter drew the net, it came to the shore.
When they drew/dragged Paul and Silas to the marketplace, they came.
When they drew/dragged Paul out of the synagogue, he went out, and they slammed the door behind him.
When the Father draws, they come.

This word means it accomplishes what the Father intends when drawing the lost unto Himself. So, by using your application of John 12:32, universalism is the only option.

Also, seeing that not everyone whoever lived will have heard of the Christ before they die, there is no way for them to be drawn. Romans 10:14-17 clearly states none can know the Christ outside of hearing the word of God(or reading it).

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I have shown him in 3 or 4 posts the meaning of the word 'draw' in the Greek and he just keeps posting the same old response, "John 12:32 says he draws all men to himself."

The idol of free will dominates the mind of so many until Jesus sets them free.

 

[reformed1689]

Hmm, well, in every dictionary I've seen, foresight is just a synonym of foreknowledge, meaning the same thing, so.

English Dictionary or Greek?

I can understand this concept of limited atonement, because while John does state Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world, its only those who believe in Jesus, those who accept the ransom he paid for our souls that are saved.

In context this is understood of world meaning all people groups both Jew and Gentile, not every individual.

This isn't a one way street however, God is giving humanity a choice, he isn't forcing anyone.

And nobody, in their natural state, chooses God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

When does one become Regenerated? Does it happen before in order to empower us to believe or does it happen after we believe?

Play nice

We can not be made alive UNTIL we are justified. Our sins must be washed and we must be made clean first. THEN that which is dead because of sin can be made alive because of Christ

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It all happens at one point in time. We are given a new heart and enabled to believe,[quickened by the Spirit].
A person cannot believe apart from the Spirit.

God does the unseen work ;
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Thats not being born again

Born again (regeneration) happens because God has drown people to itself and helped them apart from the human spirit to understand the gospel where they can make a choice o say yes or no.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

English Dictionary or Greek?


In context this is understood of world meaning all people groups both Jew and Gentile, not every individual.


And nobody, in their natural state, chooses God.

No one in their natural state, can be made alive, because it is the penalty of sin which keeps them dead.

The penalty must be removed, THEN through adoption. One who has been dead in christ, because of sin, is made alive,

 

[Eternally Grateful]

First, foreknowledge does not mean foresight. It means knowing that person in an intimate way.
Second, Christ did not die for the sins of every person.
Third, just because it is commanded to preach the Gospel to every nation does not mean each person is elect or even has the potential to be elect.
Fourth, it does not say that God's will is to save each individual person. If that were the case, all would be saved.

Yes

And you do not have to KNOW someone to chose to receive what they are offering, people do it every day.

This is the flaw of fatalistic thinking.

Second, John the Baptist said he came to take the sins of the world. And Jesus said his father loved the whole world he sent his son to die for it. So your wrong
Third no one claimed everyone is elect. It helps when we do not real into what people are saying.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Foreknowledge is the Greek is a verb, proginosko, which means God is doing something in foreknowing ppl. This is Him electing ppl unto salvation. Whom He did foreknow[proginosko] He also did predestinate to become conformed to the image of His Son[Romans 8:29].

Yes

And how did he predestination?what was his will?

John 6; 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, " that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Many people this day saw him, But they did not believe, Jesus even said at the end, are you going to leave also. Peter said where wold they God He had the word of eternal life and they came to believe. Where s the others did not

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So your act of response saved you.

Got it.

To the contrary it is God who has caused us to born again; 1 Peter 1:3. Yet you claim to have done this by "responding."

I'm not left wondering whether you or God is correct here.

No

Jesus saved us, He offered us the gift. The tax collector who got on his knees and pleaded for Gods mercy received it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If people don't respond the how can God move their heart to conversion?

If they do not respond. How can the love of God be proclaimed?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yes

And how did he predestination?what was his will?

John 6; 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, " that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Many people this day saw him, But they did not believe, Jesus even said at the end, are you going to leave also. Peter said where wold they God He had the word of eternal life and they came to believe. Where s the others did not

He said earlier, “All the Father gives me...”. That’s not just those living then but all that the Father had given Him. Later on in John 17 He prayed 20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.” So, He was not only praying for His sheep then, but for His sheep that would be saved later. Same thing with John 6:39-40. That includes all believers of all time, not just those living in the time of the Christ’s ministry.

 

[SovereignGrace]

No

Jesus saved us, He offered us the gift. The tax collector who got on his knees and pleaded for Gods mercy received it.

Exactly. But man in his unregenerate state will never bow the knee to Him. He hates Him, is hostile with Him, is at enmity(has an ill-will towards)with Him. That’s exactly what Romans 8:5-9 avers. Those who bow are those He humbled.

 

[reformed1689]

Yes

And you do not have to KNOW someone to chose to receive what they are offering, people do it every day.

This is the flaw of fatalistic thinking.

Second, John the Baptist said he came to take the sins of the world. And Jesus said his father loved the whole world he sent his son to die for it. So your wrong
Third no one claimed everyone is elect. It helps when we do not real into what people are saying.

World does not mean every individual.

If during the Superbowl the commentator says "The eyes of the whole world are on this moment." Does that mean literally every individual is watching the game? Of course not.