Regeneration before or after saving faith

[reformed1689]

30 Jesus answered and said, lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

All men, Nothing here distinguishing one an or one people group from another..

READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER! It's referring to the Greeks that came to ask to see Jesus. All men are all people groups. Not every individual.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There is a GENERAL call. But not all are drawn, literally dragged, to Christ.

I was not dragged to christ. Niether were your. Neither was Paul. Or peter, Or anyone else who has ever come to christ

I was however, LED to christ. Through many things, The HS’s conviction and teaching, Being drawn by other believers who walked the walk, an I saw had the love of God and power in their lives. And a continued look at my own in, and how sinful and guilty I was. Until I become bankrupt (poor in spirit)

At this time, I call out to God like the tax collector did.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If you can't understand basic context I can't.

I understand basic context.

Is this all your going to do? Because if it is, then you hav nothing to show me, Or really anyone else. Because all you are doing is trying to puff yourself up and knock someone you consider our enemy down..

 

[Preacher4Truth]

And since chapter 12:32 says that Christ will draw ALL MEN to Himself, it means that the Father grants the Son what the Son desires.

That is an errant misinterpretation of the text. God has not drawn every single person due to the facts that all who are drawn are saved and raised, John 6:35-40 and, no person living in Alaska and elsewhere contemporaneously when he said this were drawn unless you're some quasi mormon, universalist or mystic and believe contrary to what Christ stated above.

You are not thinking rationally through the implications of your statements, you make biblically inept statements that are easily proven incorrect.

Then you add the last sentence which is a weird twist on the biblical narrative.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER! It's referring to the Greeks that came to ask to see Jesus. All men are all people groups. Not every individual.

I read the whole chapter. Better yet, I looked at what Jesus said in context.

Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify Your name.”

Then a voice came from heaven, saying, “I have both glorified it and will glorify it again.”

29 Therefore the people who stood by and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to Him.”

30 Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. 31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am [e]lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

34 The people answered Him, “We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?”

35 Then Jesus said to them, “A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he is going. 36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.

Its not there.

 

[Paul Christensen]

30 Jesus answered and said, lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

All men, Nothing here distinguishing one an or one people group from another..

Charles Spurgeon says that the first thing an unsaved person needs to do is to believe in and take hold of the salvation promises for him. Once he has done that and has received Christ as Saviour on the basis of those promises, then he can think about election. Otherwise it is putting the cart before the horse.

The fact that any unsaved person can understand and believe the gospel of Christ so as to act accordingly, shows that he or she is one of the elect. If the person is not one of the elect, they wouldn't be understanding or believing the gospel. But we won't know who will believe the gospel or not unless we make the effort to share God's invitation to them through the gospel.

Just because God knows who are the elect and who are not, doesn't mean that He withholds His invitation to come to Christ on the basis of His promises in Scripture. The pardon is offered to all the prisoners, and the prison door is open for them to walk out. Whether they decide to accept the pardon and walk out is up to them. The ones who accept the pardon and walk out are the ones who find out that they were elected for freedom, and the ones who decide not to accept the pardon and remain in the prison are the ones who are not elected.

Spurgeon says that the acceptance of the promises of God for salvation take priority over any mystery decree made in heaven.

 

[Stumpmaster]

When does one become Regenerated? Does it happen before in order to empower us to believe or does it happen after we believe?

Play nice

This snippet from my files is really nice, friend of. Who can refute it successfully?

 

[Paul Christensen]

READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER! It's referring to the Greeks that came to ask to see Jesus. All men are all people groups. Not every individual.

How do you reconcile:
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day" (John 6:44)?

 

[reformed1689]

I was not dragged to christ. Niether were your. Neither was Paul. Or peter, Or anyone else who has ever come to christ

I was however, LED to christ. Through many things, The HS’s conviction and teaching, Being drawn by other believers who walked the walk, an I saw had the love of God and power in their lives. And a continued look at my own in, and how sinful and guilty I was. Until I become bankrupt (poor in spirit)

At this time, I call out to God like the tax collector did.

I'm just telling you what the Greek means.

 

[reformed1689]

How do you reconcile:
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day" (John 6:44)?

I don't understand your question.

 

[reformed1689]

I read the whole chapter. Better yet, I looked at what Jesus said in context.

Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify Your name.”

Then a voice came from heaven, saying, “I have both glorified it and will glorify it again.”

29 Therefore the people who stood by and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to Him.”

30 Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. 31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am [e]lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

34 The people answered Him, “We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?”

35 Then Jesus said to them, “A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he is going. 36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.

Its not there.

Again, the WHOLE chapter.

 

[reformed1689]

That is an errant misinterpretation of the text. God has not drawn every single person due to the facts that all who are drawn are saved and raised, John 6:35-40 and, no person living in Alaska and elsewhere contemporaneously when he said this were drawn unless you're some quasi mormon, universalist or mystic and believe contrary to what Christ stated above.

You are not thinking rationally through the implications of your statements, you make biblically inept statements that are easily proven incorrect.

Then you add the last sentence which is a weird twist on the biblical narrative.

Right, but he has "never" been proven wrong....

 

[Paul Christensen]

I don't understand your question.

Well, you said that Jesus being raised up on the cross does not draw individuals to Him, and the Scripture I just quoted says that no individual can come to Him except the Father draws him. It seems that your view contradicts John 6:44 and that is what puzzles me.

 

[reformed1689]

Well, you said that Jesus being raised up on the cross does not draw individuals to Him, and the Scripture I just quoted says that no individual can come to Him except the Father draws him. It seems that your view contradicts John 6:44 and that is what puzzles me.

I said it is not referring to individuals, rather, it is referring to people groups. I don't understand the confusion.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Right, but he has "never" been proven wrong....

In Hebrews the Scripture says: "Today, if you hear His voice, don't harden your heart". This shows that it is possible for an individual to hear the voice of God through the Scriptural salvation promises, and through them being drawn to Christ, and then to harden his heart and refuse to respond to the drawing of the Father. Otherwise, why did the Apostle to the Hebrews bother to give the instruction?

 

[Paul Christensen]

I said it is not referring to individuals, rather, it is referring to people groups. I don't understand the confusion.

So you are saying that John 6:44 also refers to people groups?

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Right, but he has "never" been proven wrong....

That's the problem.

Appolos got cured of this, but that was by God's grace. He doesn't do this for all, but for whom he wills, just like salvation.

 

[Enoch111]

God has not drawn every single person...

Only God knows that. However Mark 16:15,16 makes it clear that God wants every single person to hear the Gospel, which is when the Holy Spirit draws men to Christ. And it is by the hearing of the Gospel and obedience to the Gospel that people are saved.

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Having read this commandment of Christ, Christians must ask themselves why? And the answers are given in Scripture:

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (Isa 45:22)
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.(1 Tim 2:3,4)
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Pet 3:9)

 

[reformed1689]

So you are saying that John 6:44 also refers to people groups?

No, I am not saying that.

 

[reformed1689]

Only God knows that. However Mark 16:15,16 makes it clear that God wants every single person to hear the Gospel, which is when the Holy Spirit draws men to Christ. And it is by the hearing of the Gospel and obedience to the Gospel that people are saved.

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Having read this commandment of Christ, Christians must ask themselves why? And the answers are given in Scripture:

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (Isa 45:22)
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.(1 Tim 2:3,4)
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Pet 3:9)

Context, context, context, I can't scream it enough....