Regeneration before or after saving faith

[Eternally Grateful]

Two things: 1, he is talking about both. 2, Paul routinely uses a quote from the OT to make another point.

1. Your wrong
2. he is talking about 2 nations. There is NOTHING in the context of Mal 1 where he is talking about 2 babies who have not been born yet.

I do not care of it is paul or anyone else. When you use a quote from another author You take them in context Because you do not assume everyone knows the passage quoted and they WILl go back an investigate to see what was being said. You do not take them to say something they never insinuated or said.

But hey, Let’s do another 1.

Genesis 25:23
And the Lord said to her: “Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger.”

Again, Is this talking about 2 babies not yet born, Or two nations?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The word is we do not choose God, he chooses us. Christ died for those who were chosen and their sin, not every sin of every man. Salvation is not dependent upon us in anyway, God and God alone. We have no right to question God.

I am talking about Romans 9, can we please stick to the topic.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Which view. The fatalistic view. Or the view as written in context?

Fatalism is by an impersonal force. God doing things by his own purpose, counsel, will and wisdom is not an impersonal force. Your illustration is apple's and oranges.

As a side note, I've attempted to reach out to you like a Christian, you rejected this and reacted to that with name calling, sowing discord and attempting to cause division.

 

[Dcopymope]

It is quite simple and irrefutably logical; if you are regenerated by God before you can respond and express faith, then it has nothing to do with you or imagined free-will. Therefore, since God creates every person depraved and without any freedom to accept or reject this forced "grace", then God is responsible if anyone goes to Hell. It eliminates all responsibility and rebellion since everyone can only do what God predestines and wills. Everyone is 100% obedient to the will of God! They can do no other.

The Biblical order is "repent and believe" and then "salvation" follows. It is not in the reverse order. Such Fatalism, as some argue for in the name of Calvinism, is an unbiblical heathen philosophy that makes God out to be a Puppeteer and a Monster!

Doctrines like calvinism are a prime example of why Christianity is considered a joke by many. They give atheists, and other unbelievers all the ammunition, all the excuse they need to reject God. It certainly is not an interpretation of scripture that paints God in a positive light.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Just facts, not opinion. What you are preaching is not in Scripture.

There you go again, No basis, no context no proof.

Just attack.

Again, I can say the same about you.. This line of reasoning is meaningless. If this is all you are going to do. Well then there is no need to continue,, All your doing is making yourself look bad. And I would hate to feed you while you do this. Because I actually do care

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Your going by what you THINK IS FAIR,

You don’t get to decide what is and is not fair.

You see, you used circular reasoning. What you used to Jude another can be used to judge yourself.

Sadly it is a thing many people use, which is meaningless and nothing but a derogatory statement used to try to tear an app onene down. But has no power. Because the same argument can be used against them

This is so funny because you're projecting. He has done none of this.

But you certainly have, your track record shows this.

Sad fact is you've determined by your own reality that God owes everyone a chance to be saved and cannot be God or fair if he doesn't. Well, he doesn't, and he's under no obligation to do so. He will save all his elect and none else. They are chosen by grace, not based on anything about them but solely based on his own purpose and will, Ephesians 1.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Fatalism is by an impersonal force. God doing things by his own purpose, counsel, will and wisdom is not an impersonal force. Your illustration is apple's and oranges.

As a side note, I've attempted to reach out to you like a Christian, you rejected this and reacted to that with name calling, sowing discord and attempting to cause division.

This is on responsive t romans 9 Would you like to discuss that?

fatalism says everything will happen based on Gods will. It means when Hitler killed millions. That was Gods will.

It says God chose to save one bay while condemn another baby before they were born



Sorry bro. You came at me like a roaring lion..If you want to admit you did this and apologize. I can and do forgive, but You do what you always do. When you are called out. You try to act all nice and try to take the onus off you.

I do not buy it anymore.

 

[Paul Christensen]

But then you have a problem. He would have had to pay for all sins in case one of those decided to believe and meet the condition. But we are told we were elected before the foundation of the world.


It does say that, but that is out of the context. He is not willing that any of the elect perish.

The fact is that if everyone in the world were to receive Christ, His finished word and the paid debt would cover them all. By the way I don't support universalism because God set the narrow gate of faith in Christ as the way to enter into salvation and eternal life.

The question I keep answering, and no one seems able or willing to answer it. How does anyone know they are elect if it not that they have believed the gospel, exercised faith in Christ and met the conditions? Does a person have to know that they are definitely elected before they can even take the first step in receiving Christ, and how can they know?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is so funny because you're projecting. He has done none of this.

I am but he is not?

Lol.. Your funny dude.

But you certainly have, your track record shows this.

Sad fact is you've determined by your own reality that God owes everyone a chance to be saved and cannot be God or fair if he doesn't. Well, he doesn't, and he's under no obligation to do so. He will save all his elect and none else. They are chosen by grace, not based on anything about them but solely based on his own purpose and will, Ephesians 1.

Well this is just your opinion. I will not condemn you for this, and I have agreed to disagree with many of your brethren,

Unlike Like , who has condemned me (as a false teacher) Because I believe faith is not an action. But a state of mind.

Practice what you preach man.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Question for the room

What was one of the main arguments the jewish religious sect used to show Why God chose them?

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Just facts, not opinion. What you are preaching is not in Scripture.

I agree. Unfortunately you are not dealing with a person who is rational or can ever be corrected. I'm just going by his track record where he is never wrong about anything even when proven wrong.

He listens to no one, and is self taught by his own proud self-testimony, rejecting teachings of others. It's probable he is under no authority or pastoral leadership.

Funny thing is he came up with all his erroneous views "on his own," obviously directly from God to his mind, thus what he says is apparently "ex cathedra" while being, as per Scripture, not contextual or accurate, but always out of context.

Yet his errors are the same errors of Finney, Sandeman, the Wesley's, Arminius, Pelagius and other heretics. His ignorance of church history, the gospel in church history lends to his errant views.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I agree. Unfortunately you are not dealing with a person who is rational or can ever be corrected. I'm just going by his track record where he is never wrong about anything even when proven wrong.

He listens to no one, and is self taught by his own proud test, rejecting teachings of others. It's probable he is under no authority or pastoral leadership.

Funny thing is he came up with all his erroneous views "on his own," obviously directly from God to his mind, thus what he says is then "ex cathedra" while being as per Scripture not contextual or accurate, but it if context. Yet his errors are the same errors of Finney, Sandeman, the Wesley's, Arminius, Pelagius and other heretics. His ignorance of church history, the gospel in church history lends to his errant views.

Again/

This argument can be used against the user who posted it.

All anyone has to do is look at his posts.

It must be a calvinist trait. You attack anyone who disagrees with you. You tell everyone they do not listen to reason. they do not listen to scripture.

Its called being a bully. You bully people. I guess in hopes they will come to your way of thinking? News flash. No one has ever repented because someone bullied them to come their way. They may be scared into agreeing with you. But deep down inside they will never see it your way

Oh wait, Its not calvinist. Catholics do the same..

Oh well.


You want to discuss romans 9. Or just make silly attacks like you always do?

 

[reformed1689]

1. Your wrong
2. he is talking about 2 nations. There is NOTHING in the context of Mal 1 where he is talking about 2 babies who have not been born yet.

I do not care of it is paul or anyone else. When you use a quote from another author You take them in context Because you do not assume everyone knows the passage quoted and they WILl go back an investigate to see what was being said. You do not take them to say something they never insinuated or said.

But hey, Let’s do another 1.

Genesis 25:23
And the Lord said to her: “Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger.”

Again, Is this talking about 2 babies not yet born, Or two nations?

Again, both.

 

[reformed1689]

Its called being a bully. You bully people. I guess in hopes they will come to yoru way of thinking?

Wrong:

bul·ly1
/ˈbo͝olē/
Learn to pronounce
Filter definitions by topic

See definitions in:
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Savoury
Hockey
noun

1. a person who habitually seeks to harm or intimidate those whom they perceive as vulnerable.
   
   

verb

1. seek to harm, intimidate, or coerce (someone perceived as vulnerable).
   "her 11- year-old son has been constantly bullied at school"

 

[reformed1689]

I am talking about Romans 9, can we please stick to the topic.

And I am talking about the whole of Scripture.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Again, both.

Ah

“Two nations are in your womb” Not two babies are in your womb.

Sorry I can not add to the word what is not here.

So I will have to disagree with you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Wrong:

bul·ly1
/ˈbo͝olē/
Learn to pronounce
Filter definitions by topic

See definitions in:
All
Savoury
Hockey
noun

1. a person who habitually seeks to harm or intimidate those whom they perceive as vulnerable.
   

verb

1. seek to harm, intimidate, or coerce (someone perceived as vulnerable).
   "her 11- year-old son has been constantly bullied at school"

Yep

And if you look at his posts to me for the past few years.

That is what he has done, Bully and intimidate people who do not agree with him.

Are you like him?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And I am talking about the whole of Scripture.

Right now we are talking about romans 9, Can you please keep in context? Or is this too hard for you?

By the way can you answer What reason did the pharisees use to show why they were Gods chosen people?

 

[Paul Christensen]

I guess him calling me a false teacher is with the forums rules?

Yet I m not unconscious. Thats where you are wrong in all of your calculations.. Even if your right, and someone came and woke me up. I would still have to CHOSE to be rescued.

I am retired coast guard. I have witnessed many a life saving rescues. And you know what? Not everyone ill just sit by and idly let you save them. And some have died because they refuse to trust the one who was sent to save them

Grace has no qualification. Nor does love.

Jesus told us to forgive unconditionally.

God is not going to tell us to love all people (agape I’ve) even our next, when he refuses to do the same.

ALL people are Gods enemy, For him to love al people like he demands us to do. He must LOVE ALL PEOPLE.

Thats means giving them the ability to chose life over death.

God also has the right to do whatever it takes to let that happen.

I think it is best to keep to kicking the ball and not the players so that you don't weaken your position. The best way to correct a person if you think they are wrong is to show them through Scripture, rather than abusing them by accusing them of not practising what they preach, etc.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Again/

This argument can be used against the user who posted it.

All anyone has to do is look at his posts.

It must be a calvinist trait. You attack anyone who disagrees with you. You tell everyone they do not listen to reason. they do not listen to scripture.

Its called being a bully. You bully people. I guess in hopes they will come to your way of thinking? News flash. No one has ever repented because someone bullied them to come their way. They may be scared into agreeing with you. But deep down inside they will never see it your way

Oh wait, Its not calvinist. Catholics do the same..

Oh well.


You want to discuss romans 9. Or just make silly attacks like you always do?

I've never attacked you. I go against your errant false gospel.

No, I do not bully but am reminded of your name calling post full of accusations. And you're doing it again right here. Now, go show us where I've done what you accuse.

You will not worship the God of Scripture unless he extends mercy to everyone, loves everyone, let's everyone hear the gospel and let's everyone get a chance to vote. That isn't the God of Scripture.