Regeneration before or after saving faith

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Anthony D'Arienzo

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Not really. It's relevant to the discussion, because calvinists see grace as irresistible, therefore in thier system, why would God convict anyone who he didn't cause to accept him? Yet the Spirit works on many who refuse him.
The Spirit convicting men is not the same as effectual calling;
The Spirit is resisted daily, but the effectual call is never resisted.

._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )
 
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Waiting on him

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Not really. It's relevant to the discussion, because calvinists see grace as irresistible, therefore in thier system, why would God convict anyone who he didn't cause to accept him? Yet the Spirit works on many who refuse him.
Well when I got the rotten news, I pretty much feel I had no choice but to agree.....then I heard the good news... And I'll never forget it.
 

Preacher4Truth

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Not really. It's relevant to the discussion, because calvinists see grace as irresistible, therefore in thier system, why would God convict anyone who he didn't cause to accept him? Yet the Spirit works on many who refuse him.
Irresistible Grace does not teach the Holy Spirit cannot be resisted. It does mean that when God saves his elect they will not always resist that grace.

Going off face value of the phrase "irresistible grace" is misleading. One must understand what is meant by the statement, not what it looks like it means.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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I want others to notice how @Renniks and his errant source leave off a portion of the quote with an ellipsis where the point is proven by Scripture.

Here it all is:

"We can say, first, that regeneration is the cause of faith. That’s plain in 1 John 5:1: “Everyone who believes [that is, has faith] that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.” Having been born of God results in our believing. Our believing is the immediate evidence of God’s begetting."

The text proves his point, there is nothing unbiblical about the quickening that takes place. Oh, and by the way, the source was heretic Leighton Flowers, Mr. personal achievement salvation himself. Or better yet, God chooses people like we choose the best meats at a deli. God chooses by the quality of the meat. His "choice meats" faux pas. These are two examples of his grace denying false gospel.

Oh yes, the evil teaching of poor Leighton...I did it my way, Flowers.
 
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CharismaticLady

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What prompted your repentance?
Trying to break up with a married man I was obsessed with and couldn't do it no matter how many times I tried. So after months of trying I gave up. And told God He was stronger than I was, and if He wanted this relationship broken, then to make him break up with me. Within a week he did. What happened after that is my testimony of becoming born again and filled with the Spirit.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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Renniks,

Thank you for finally beginning to offer your responses both with quotes and portions of scripture.
You may have done so in the past but I had not seen it. I chided you for not doing it, so now I commend you for offering what you can,Rennicks
The term used is irresitable grace...not irresistable damnation; from the 1689 confession of faith.."

The confession States:
" by the decree of God, for the manifestation of His own glory, some men and angels are predestined unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death."(
Westminster Confession of Faith, III:3).

You quoted the 1644, not a bad confession, but notice I use the 1689;
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )
 

Waiting on him

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Renniks,

Thank you for finally beginning to offer your responses both with quotes and portions of scripture.
You may have done so in the past but I had not seen it. I chided you for not doing it, so now I commend you for offering what you can,Rennicks
The term used is irresitable grace...not irresistable damnation; from the 1689 confession of faith.."



You quoted the 1644, not a bad confession, but notice I use the 1689;
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )
For the manifestation of His glory too whom?
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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"Renniks,
How about a simple question?
okay... a simple question is, why are you not answering what I did post. Agree or disagree
Your emphasis was that this ‘you’ in ‘patient towards you’ refers to the Christians who are the elect of God[/QUOTE].
If you worked through what I posted you will see it.
No need to go all over the place to see this...it is right here;

You claimed there was not two distinct groups spoken of,
2]It doesn't irreversibly separate us into two categories of people.


what I posted shows it....i will make it even more clear....elect believers in red,
ungodly reprobates in blue.

2 Peter 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;
but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things,
be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Notice it goes back and forth contrasting between the beloved elect, and the wicked....you said it does not divide between two groups??? care to look again?


T
 

Waiting on him

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13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


Revelation 21:5 KJV
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

How many times does God make the new things new??
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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he Greek for ‘you’ is humas, accusative plural. Because 2 Peter is addressed to ‘you’ Christians – the elect – does that mean that the ‘you’ only applies to Christians?

If you read the passage it only means the to-usward is the beloved, in contrast to the ungodly scoffers.

Do all these other verses only apply to Christians?

Both epistles contrast the elect with the non elect
  • writing to Christians does not prohibit instruction to and about the ungodly. It is consistent biblical interpretation to conclude that 2 Peter 3:8 is appealing to the unbelievers when it states that the Lord is ‘not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance’.
  • except you are ignoring this whole passage...He says but beloved
  • 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;
    but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
  • The ‘any’ refers to unbelievers who are perishing and the ‘all’ indicates all unbelievers who should repent.
Not at all...he is not addressing the unbelieving scoffers here....He is guaranteeing the each elect sheep will be saved...God is not willing to have one perish, but that all come to repentance.
The word is not the weaker word, thelo, but rather boulomai
Boulomai expresses also the inward predisposition and bent from which active volition proceeds; hence it is never used of evil people.

Boulomai denotes the unconscious willing or an inner decision or thinking while thelo indicates conscious willing and denotes a more active resolution urging on to action.
In other words, God has decreed destined and purposed who would be saved...ie, all the elect sheep.

    • [*]Now here's a really amusing part, you say this is only for believers, because that's who Paul is writing to, but believers' don't need to repent....they already have.
  • Yes, these elect had already repented, but Peter is telling the believers how to deal with the scoffers from vs4-7.....God is longsuffering until all the elect are born. Christians alive today had not been born yet, so God is longsuffering with the wicked until each and every elect person gets saved by Jesus
Chrysostom an early church father said makrothumeo

“is a word which is used of the man who is wronged and who has it easily in his power to avenge himself but will never do it.” (cf. Nu 14:18)

God waits for men to be saved and exhibits an immense capacity for patience before He breaks forth in judgment (Joel 2:13; Lk 15:20).

God endures endless blasphemies against His name, along with rebellion, murders, and the ongoing breaking of His law, waiting patiently while He is calling and redeeming His own. It is not impotence or slackness that delays final judgment but it is His attribute of patience. This attribute of God is reflected in His ability to be inconvenienced or taken advantage of by a person over and over again and yet not manifest anger! Amazing love and grace from an amazing God.

God's "longsuffering" was behind His delaying the Genesis Flood for 120 years,

"when the patience [makrothumia] of God kept waiting in the days of Noah during the construction of the ark in which a few, that is eight persons, were brought safely through the water" (1Peter 3:20-note)

 
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