Replacement Theology thrown down in 1 verse?

[Trekson]

But if any of National Israel is to be saved it must be through Christ, which we know, how then do we make up a new, different category for them, apart from "Church of Christ"?

Hi Naomi, This is the best representation of what replacement theory people believe that I've ever heard. I do, however, disagree but to your point above. Many Messianics consider themselves as "completed" Jews and I think that is an apt description.

 

[Waiting on him]

Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers [THE PATRIARCHS, ABRAHAM, ISAAC, AND JACOB] , and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (9:3-5)

This is also said of the church

 

[Enoch111]

This is also said of the church

The Israelites are those who belong to the twelve tribes of Israel. You will notice that they are contrasted with the Church in Revelation 7.

 

[Waiting on him]

I’m not saying we replace Israel I’m saying we become a part of Israel

 

[Waiting on him]

Hebrew: ישׂראל
Transliteration: yiώrâ'êl
Pronunciation: yis-raw-ale'
Definition: From H8280 and H410; he will rule as God;
{Jisrael} a symbolical name of Jacob; also (typically) of his posterity: - Israel.
KJV Usage: Israel (2,489x), Israelites (16x)
This is what I proclaim!

 

[CoreIssue]

I’m not saying we replace Israel I’m saying we become a part of Israel

We do not become part of Israel, we share with Israel.

The wife of Christ is the church, not Israel. The wife of God is Israel, not the church.
Ephesians 3:6 New International Version (NIV)
6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

 

[Waiting on him]

We do not become part of Israel, we share with Israel.

The wife of Christ is the church, not Israel. The wife of God is Israel, not the church.
Ephesians 3:6 New International Version (NIV)
6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Isaiah 54:4-7 KJV
[4] Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more. [5] For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. [6] For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. [7] For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.

Tecarta Bible PremiumThey were his bride. And he divorced them lawfully due to fornication. This in my opinion is why Christ made it clear in NT, you can only put her away due to fornication.

But if her husband be dead she is lawfully free to take another husband.

 

[CoreIssue]

Isaiah 54:4-7 KJV
[4] Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more. [5] For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. [6] For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. [7] For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.

Tecarta Bible PremiumThey were his bride. And he divorced them lawfully due to fornication. This in my opinion is why Christ made it clear in NT, you can only put her away due to fornication.

But if her husband be dead she is lawfully free to take another husband.

Wife not bride and the wife is not dead.

The Abraham covenant is unconditional. It will be fulfilled through Israel.

 

[Naomi25]

My question is there one tree or two?

Is there one root or two? Are we grafted onto one Christ, or more than one Christ? If there is only one way for man to be saved...coming to Christ, I would suggest that means there is one root, one tree, one Christ.

 

[CoreIssue]

Is there one root or two? Are we grafted onto one Christ, or more than one Christ? If there is only one way for man to be saved...coming to Christ, I would suggest that means there is one root, one tree, one Christ.

Fig tree is figurative of Israel, not Christ.

 

[Naomi25]

Paul devotes Romans 9-11 to the matter of Israel (the Israelites, the twelve tribes).

1. Here is how he starts: For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers [THE PATRIARCHS, ABRAHAM, ISAAC, AND JACOB] , and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (9:3-5)

2. Then he quotes Isaiah about a believing remnant: Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. (9:27-29)

3. Then he quotes Isaiah regarding unbelieving Jews: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?... But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. (10:16,20,21)

4. Then he shows that during the Church age, the *good olive tree* consists of believing Jews into which believing Gentiles are grafted as branches from the *wild olive tree*: Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace...For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
(11:5,24).

Because of their unbelief, the majority of Jews have been made spiritually blind, while the Gentiles are being saved.

5. Then he confirms that a specific number of Gentiles will enter into the Church: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (11:25) [This signifies the end of the church age]

Thus far you have only said what I have. Swinging dangerously close to replacement theology!

6. Then he reverts back to the salvation of Israel (the promised redemption and restoration of Israel) after the Second Coming of Christ, who will come as the Deliverer or Redeemer of Israel: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (11:26,27) This is a direct quotation from Isaiah 59:20,21: And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD...

There's nothing wrong with this either, except for the assumption that it has to happen after the Rapture. The passage does not say that...at all. Says nothing about it. It only says that IF their partial hardening has meant salvation to the nation, how much more will it mean for their full inclusion!!
You are reading a Rapture into the passage, only because you want it there. Jesus is fully capable of bringing National Israel to a saving knowledge of him while the Church is still present. As I said before...God has worked on the Church while Israel is present, and all this time he's bought Jews into the Church. Why would we suddenly assume that the Church must be gone for God to bring this about? If it's not in the text and it doesn't hold up rationally, there is no reason, biblically, to demand it must be so.

7. Then he mentions the patriarchs again, since this restoration of Israel is a fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant:As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. [THE PATRIARCHS, ABRAHAM, ISAAC, AND JACOB]

Now it is up to you to study the Abrahamic Covenant and see how it relates to the kingdom of Israel on earth under Christ.

Yes, beloved for the Father's sake, which is why, I believe Romans 11 says what it does. But having the bible say that God will "save all Israel" for the sake of the Patriarch's, and then leaping to the conclusion that it has to be done seperately when the Church is removed because Israel has a "separate agenda" is something that simply doesn't appear in scripture...certainly not in this passage. Israel, when she is grafted back on, is bought to Christ. That means she becomes part of the body. Ipso facto, she, like any other saved Jew now, or before, becomes part of the Church. You're not going to find any scripture in the NT that says otherwise. They must come to Christ. And when someone comes to Christ we become his. Being his, is being part of the Church.

 

[Waiting on him]

She’s free to marry another. And it won’t be like sister wives.

 

[Waiting on him]

Thus far you have only said what I have. Swinging dangerously close to replacement theology!


There's nothing wrong with this either, except for the assumption that it has to happen after the Rapture. The passage does not say that...at all. Says nothing about it. It only says that IF their partial hardening has meant salvation to the nation, how much more will it mean for their full inclusion!!
You are reading a Rapture into the passage, only because you want it there. Jesus is fully capable of bringing National Israel to a saving knowledge of him while the Church is still present. As I said before...God has worked on the Church while Israel is present, and all this time he's bought Jews into the Church. Why would we suddenly assume that the Church must be gone for God to bring this about? If it's not in the text and it doesn't hold up rationally, there is no reason, biblically, to demand it must be so.



Yes, beloved for the Father's sake, which is why, I believe Romans 11 says what it does. But having the bible say that God will "save all Israel" for the sake of the Patriarch's, and then leaping to the conclusion that it has to be done seperately when the Church is removed because Israel has a "separate agenda" is something that simply doesn't appear in scripture...certainly not in this passage. Israel, when she is grafted back on, is bought to Christ. That means she becomes part of the body. Ipso facto, she, like any other saved Jew now, or before, becomes part of the Church. You're not going to find any scripture in the NT that says otherwise. They must come to Christ. And when someone comes to Christ we become his. Being his, is being part of the Church.

What can I say all of Israel would be saved.

 

[Naomi25]

Hi Naomi, This is the best representation of what replacement theory people believe that I've ever heard. I do, however, disagree but to your point above. Many Messianics consider themselves as "completed" Jews and I think that is an apt description.

Sorry, I'm not sure I get your point. You think what I've said is the best (which is bad, because you think replacement theology is bad) representation of RT that you've heard? And you disagree? Is that what you're saying? Because if it is, how is any of what I've said unbiblical?
Also, it's not strictly wrong for saved Jews to think of themselves as "completed" Jews. As I keep saying...those Jews who are in Christ, they have remained attached to the "root" naturally! They belong there naturally! It is we that have been grafted in. So, for them to consider themselves "completed" is not wrong at all, it is exactly as they were born...destined to be.

 

[Naomi25]

Fig tree is figurative of Israel, not Christ.

Israel does not nourish itself. Listen to how Paul talks about the tree and branches here:

If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. -Romans 11:16–24

In the image here, of a tree, we clearly have a nourishing root and branches. The branches are Israel and the root is Christ. The root is holy, the root supports the believers. Those who are "believers" are grafted onto the root. Those who are not believers, are broken off the root.
When we combine this image with the one where Christ tells us that he is the vine and we are the branches, and that those who do not "abide" in him will be cut off and thrown into the fire". The imagry is the same, and cannot be doubted.

Israel does not nourish itself, even if it hasn't been "broken off"...even if it is believing Israel, it still must be connected to the holy, nourishing root.

 

[Waiting on him]

Sorry, I'm not sure I get your point. You think what I've said is the best (which is bad, because you think replacement theology is bad) representation of RT that you've heard? And you disagree? Is that what you're saying? Because if it is, how is any of what I've said unbiblical?
Also, it's not strictly wrong for saved Jews to think of themselves as "completed" Jews. As I keep saying...those Jews who are in Christ, they have remained attached to the "root" naturally! They belong there naturally! It is we that have been grafted in. So, for them to consider themselves "completed" is not wrong at all, it is exactly as they were born...destined to be.

The were cut off for my good.... what does a person do with that???

 

[Mal'ak]

1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

1 Corinthians 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

1 Corinthians 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

1 Corinthians 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

The Old Testament was an example to us, and not the fulfilling of the Word of God. There was no replacement, just a new covenant made that was opened to all and not just the bloodline of Isaac.

Exodus 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.

The covenant God had with Israel was a legal document in the form of the law, starting with the ten commandments. God said that he would make promises to them and keep those promises and blessings as his chosen people if they agreed to follow his law, they agreed and the legal agreement was made in the form of a spiritual marriage.

Isaiah 50:1 Thus saith the Lord, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.

Jeremiah 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Years later after much sin and backsliding, Israel and Judah were divorced by God because they broke the covenant between them. God gave them a lot of chances and hundreds of years, but they continued to rebel against God even up until the murder of Jesus Christ by the Jewish leaders.

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

After the divorce of Israel and Judah because they "continued not in [God's] covenant", Jesus made a new covenant with Israel and Judah which was a better one then their first. Jesus dying for our sins made it so we can receive forgiveness, while under the old law we still were guilty and could not keep the law.

Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

But the difference between the old covenant and the new, is that it is a spiritual agreement made between each person and God instead of a nation and God. The "adoption" of Christ allows the gentiles and Jews to join the new covenant as spiritual Israel, instead of it being based on their bloodlines. "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel...they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: But the children of the promise are counted for the seed". The "Promise" is the foundation of Christianity said here by Jesus himself:

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

 

[Naomi25]

The were cut off for my good.... what does a person do with that???

I think Paul says it quite well:

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
“For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
“Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”
For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. -Romans 11:33–36

Can we necessarily understand why God has done it this way? Not beyond what he's told us: to make Israel "jealous". But God is good and wise and we can look to the amazing love demonstrated on the cross and just know that in all things we can humbly praise him for his incredible mercies.

 

[Waiting on him]

1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

1 Corinthians 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

1 Corinthians 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

1 Corinthians 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

The Old Testament was an example to us, and not the fulfilling of the Word of God. There was no replacement, just a new covenant made that was opened to all and not just the bloodline of Isaac.

Exodus 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.

The covenant God had with Israel was a legal document in the form of the law, starting with the ten commandments. God said that he would make promises to them and keep those promises and blessings as his chosen people if they agreed to follow his law, they agreed and the legal agreement was made in the form of a spiritual marriage.

Isaiah 50:1 Thus saith the Lord, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.

Jeremiah 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Years later after much sin and backsliding, Israel and Judah were divorced by God because they broke the covenant between them. God gave them a lot of chances and hundreds of years, but they continued to rebel against God even up until the murder of Jesus Christ by the Jewish leaders.

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

After the divorce of Israel and Judah because they "continued not in [God's] covenant", Jesus made a new covenant with Israel and Judah which was a better one then their first. Jesus dying for our sins made it so we can receive forgiveness, while under the old law we still were guilty and could not keep the law.

Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

But the difference between the old covenant and the new, is that it is a spiritual agreement made between each person and God instead of a nation and God. The "adoption" of Christ allows the gentiles and Jews to join the new covenant as spiritual Israel, instead of it being based on their bloodlines. "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel...they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: But the children of the promise are counted for the seed". The "Promise" is the foundation of Christianity said here by Jesus himself:

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

Congratulations on your marriage!

 

[Waiting on him]

I think Paul says it quite well:

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
“For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
“Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”
For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. -Romans 11:33–36

Can we necessarily understand why God has done it this way? Not beyond what he's told us: to make Israel "jealous". But God is good and wise and we can look to the amazing love demonstrated on the cross and just know that in all things we can humbly praise him for his incredible mercies.

PRAISE GOD!