Replacement Theology

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justaname

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Wormwood said:
justaname,

Thanks for your response. I do not disagree with the meaning of "until." However, I do disagree with the phrase "full number." Pleroma is never used in the NT in the numerical sense. In fact, this same word is used in verse 12. The word simply means fullness. Paul is referring to the fullness of God's salvation coming upon the Gentiles.

So, lets look again at Paul's train of thought. He does not want the Gentiles to be arrogant about their position. Israel has experienced a partial hardening until the fullness of the Gentiles has arrived. This "fullness" refers to their full inclusion or salvation. Now that the Gentiles were being fully welcomed into the family of God, all of Israel (not just the remnant) would find salvation through their jealousy over the Gentiles full inclusion into the family of God. As one commentator puts it:

To me, this makes far more sense in the context as Paul is referring to Jew and Gentile relations. It makes very little sense to me for Paul to suddenly jump into some far away eschatological prediction about the entire nation coming to salvation just before the end of the world. No, I think Paul is talking about God's plan of salvation. Israel was temporarily hardened in order to open the door for Gentiles to be fully accepted by faith, and through their faith and full acceptance, the Israelites would also come to faith. Thus, the Gentiles should not be arrogant because Israel's hardening resulted in their salvation and now all Israel can be grafted back in as a result of seeing the faith of the Gentiles and embracing that faith as well.
I appreciate your disagreement, yet I do not quite comprehend what you convey "were being fully welcomed into the family of God."

Is it not God who welcomed the Gentiles through the gift of the Holy Spirit? Did not the Gentiles know this, hence the need to stay humble and not grow prideful against the nation people of Israel, the majority that were hardened? Was this not fully understood by Paul already? Within context Paul is speaking specifically to Gentile converts and verse 26 can not speak of the combination of fulfilled Jews and Gentile converts. Verse 26 must be understood as national Israel. So then if you say the fulness refers to the fulfilled Jews accepting the Gentiles into the family of God, this is a weak argument that does not fit the overall theme Paul set (cf 10:1, 11:1). This eschatological prediction makes complete sense within the theme of the section.
 

Phoneman777

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justaname said:
So then who is Paul speaking of here?

Romans 11:25
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

and here...Romans 11:28
From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

If Paul is speaking of "Spiritual Israel" here this verse makes no sense.

Now if verse 28 is ethnic Israel then verse 26 must be ethnic Israel also, because the pronoun "they" refers back to the last mention of who Paul is speaking of.

and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

Again context. And just for clarity the passage...

For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Paul co-mingles the idea of the natural branches of Literal Israel being broken off from the True Vine Jesus and replaced with the wild branches of Spiritual Israel, a clear theme throughout the entire passage. Let's not pretend that the passage only deals with Literal Israel in order to force "all Israel shall be saved" to prop up a belief that God is going to perform "divine cataract surgery" on blind Literal Israel so that they may go forth to "fulfill their prophetic destiny. There will be no reverting back from Spiritual Israel to Literal Israel now that the "wild branches" not only cover the True Vine, but even a total conversion of the Literal Israelite nation tomorrow would be but a drop in the bucket in comparison to the almost 2 billion "wild branches" who have claimed the name of Jesus. Prophecy is Christ centered, not centered around the Antichrist or those who call Christ "the Great Imposter".
 

Wormwood

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justaname,

Thanks for your reply. No. I am not saying that they were being welcomed by national Israel . I am saying that they were being welcomed by God. The fullness of God's salvation toward the Gentiles was now being realized in Paul's day. This is the "mystery" of God's plan now being revealed. In order to clarify, Ill just post the text and do a brief, verse by verse commentary.

“Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
God's kindness has been extended toward the Gentiles because of their faith in Christ. However, they should not be arrogant because they can be cut off just like the natural branches (national Israelites who did not believe).

And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
Here is God's plan of salvation that Paul is about to expound upon. The Gentiles have been grafted in because of their faith even though they were outside the promises of God and strangers to the covenant. God's rich mercy had come to a people who were not his people. If God can accept a people who were not his people because of their faith in Christ, how much more will he embrace his people (national Israel) if they come to faith.

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:
Continuing with this thought, Paul wants to make sure the Gentiles do not become arrogant about their status before God and look down upon the national Israelite who stands outside God's promises because of their lack of faith.

a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
There was an initial hardening upon Israel in order to bring the fullness of God's salvation promises to the Gentiles. This could also be translated, "until the fullness of the Gentiles has arrived." A couple words to take note of here. First, pleroma means "fullness" not "full number." The term is never used numerically in the NT. The same word is used in verse 12 of this chapter referring to the "full inclusion" of the Jews. I think that is what is Paul's intent here....the "full inclusion" of the Gentiles. Eiselthe is an aorist verb indicating a past tense that can mean "has arrived" or "entered." This is how Paul uses the word in Romans 5:12 when he speaks of sin "entered" or "came into" the world.

So, to summarize, I think Paul is saying here, "A partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the full inclusion of the Gentiles has arrived."


And in this way all Israel will be saved,
This is the means by which all Israel will be saved. The means of Israel's hardening in order to include the Gentiles which would then cause national Israelites to come to faith in Christ due to the jealousy of seeing those who were "not my people" become God's people. I don't see how one could construe this to mean some future event where the entire nation comes to faith. It just doesn't fit in my estimation. Its talking about the means of salvation, not the number of Israelites being saved. The means by which all Israel will be saved is this "mystery" of God's plan to used his hardened people as a means of salvation of the entire world. As Paul says later, "God has bound all men over to disobedience that he might have mercy on them all." God's mercy is available to all people through this "mystery." Again, the focus here is God's present plan for the salvation of all, and not a future eschatological plan for a not-yet born nation of people.

as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”” (Romans 11:22–27, ESV)
This verse further substantiates the view here. This verse is not pointing to some eschatological event when God takes away the sins of the future nation of Israel. Its talking about God's plan to bring all men to salvation through the hardening of Israel and the inclusion of the believing Gentiles into the people of God. God will banish ungodliness from Jacob and remove their sins through this plan to bring Israel to jealousy over the full inclusion of the Gentiles.

I hope that helps clarify my views on these texts.
 

StanJ

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Keeth said:
Yea, I know, it all depends on what your definition of is, is. Heard it before. Define what you wish, as you wish, so that you may beleive as you wish.
They're not MY definitions, they're from experts, and the fact that you've heard it all before and refuse to recognise the truth therein just shows you won't accept it so there's no real use in continuing to tell you what you will not receive or refuse to understand. You obviously came here to search for itchy ears, but I doubt you'll find any.
 

justaname

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Wormwood said:
justaname,

Thanks for your reply. No. I am not saying that they were being welcomed by national Israel . I am saying that they were being welcomed by God. The fullness of God's salvation toward the Gentiles was now being realized in Paul's day. This is the "mystery" of God's plan now being revealed. In order to clarify, Ill just post the text and do a brief, verse by verse commentary.

God's kindness has been extended toward the Gentiles because of their faith in Christ. However, they should not be arrogant because they can be cut off just like the natural branches (national Israelites who did not believe).

Here is God's plan of salvation that Paul is about to expound upon. The Gentiles have been grafted in because of their faith even though they were outside the promises of God and strangers to the covenant. God's rich mercy had come to a people who were not his people. If God can accept a people who were not his people because of their faith in Christ, how much more will he embrace his people (national Israel) if they come to faith.


Continuing with this thought, Paul wants to make sure the Gentiles do not become arrogant about their status before God and look down upon the national Israelite who stands outside God's promises because of their lack of faith.


There was an initial hardening upon Israel in order to bring the fullness of God's salvation promises to the Gentiles. This could also be translated, "until the fullness of the Gentiles has arrived." A couple words to take note of here. First, pleroma means "fullness" not "full number." The term is never used numerically in the NT. The same word is used in verse 12 of this chapter referring to the "full inclusion" of the Jews. I think that is what is Paul's intent here....the "full inclusion" of the Gentiles. Eiselthe is an aorist verb indicating a past tense that can mean "has arrived" or "entered." This is how Paul uses the word in Romans 5:12 when he speaks of sin "entered" or "came into" the world.

So, to summarize, I think Paul is saying here, "A partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the full inclusion of the Gentiles has arrived."



This is the means by which all Israel will be saved. The means of Israel's hardening in order to include the Gentiles which would then cause national Israelites to come to faith in Christ due to the jealousy of seeing those who were "not my people" become God's people. I don't see how one could construe this to mean some future event where the entire nation comes to faith. It just doesn't fit in my estimation. Its talking about the means of salvation, not the number of Israelites being saved. The means by which all Israel will be saved is this "mystery" of God's plan to used his hardened people as a means of salvation of the entire world. As Paul says later, "God has bound all men over to disobedience that he might have mercy on them all." God's mercy is available to all people through this "mystery." Again, the focus here is God's present plan for the salvation of all, and not a future eschatological plan for a not-yet born nation of people.


This verse further substantiates the view here. This verse is not pointing to some eschatological event when God takes away the sins of the future nation of Israel. Its talking about God's plan to bring all men to salvation through the hardening of Israel and the inclusion of the believing Gentiles into the people of God. God will banish ungodliness from Jacob and remove their sins through this plan to bring Israel to jealousy over the full inclusion of the Gentiles.

I hope that helps clarify my views on these texts.
I have a much clearer understanding of your view thank you. This makes a compelling case linguistically. I am not fully convinced, yet you have given me reason to investigate further. Thanks!
 
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Phoneman777

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Wormwood said:
justaname,

Thanks for your reply. No. I am not saying that they were being welcomed by national Israel . I am saying that they were being welcomed by God. The fullness of God's salvation toward the Gentiles was now being realized in Paul's day. This is the "mystery" of God's plan now being revealed. In order to clarify, Ill just post the text and do a brief, verse by verse commentary.

God's kindness has been extended toward the Gentiles because of their faith in Christ. However, they should not be arrogant because they can be cut off just like the natural branches (national Israelites who did not believe).

Here is God's plan of salvation that Paul is about to expound upon. The Gentiles have been grafted in because of their faith even though they were outside the promises of God and strangers to the covenant. God's rich mercy had come to a people who were not his people. If God can accept a people who were not his people because of their faith in Christ, how much more will he embrace his people (national Israel) if they come to faith.


Continuing with this thought, Paul wants to make sure the Gentiles do not become arrogant about their status before God and look down upon the national Israelite who stands outside God's promises because of their lack of faith.


There was an initial hardening upon Israel in order to bring the fullness of God's salvation promises to the Gentiles. This could also be translated, "until the fullness of the Gentiles has arrived." A couple words to take note of here. First, pleroma means "fullness" not "full number." The term is never used numerically in the NT. The same word is used in verse 12 of this chapter referring to the "full inclusion" of the Jews. I think that is what is Paul's intent here....the "full inclusion" of the Gentiles. Eiselthe is an aorist verb indicating a past tense that can mean "has arrived" or "entered." This is how Paul uses the word in Romans 5:12 when he speaks of sin "entered" or "came into" the world.

So, to summarize, I think Paul is saying here, "A partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the full inclusion of the Gentiles has arrived."



This is the means by which all Israel will be saved. The means of Israel's hardening in order to include the Gentiles which would then cause national Israelites to come to faith in Christ due to the jealousy of seeing those who were "not my people" become God's people. I don't see how one could construe this to mean some future event where the entire nation comes to faith. It just doesn't fit in my estimation. Its talking about the means of salvation, not the number of Israelites being saved. The means by which all Israel will be saved is this "mystery" of God's plan to used his hardened people as a means of salvation of the entire world. As Paul says later, "God has bound all men over to disobedience that he might have mercy on them all." God's mercy is available to all people through this "mystery." Again, the focus here is God's present plan for the salvation of all, and not a future eschatological plan for a not-yet born nation of people.


This verse further substantiates the view here. This verse is not pointing to some eschatological event when God takes away the sins of the future nation of Israel. Its talking about God's plan to bring all men to salvation through the hardening of Israel and the inclusion of the believing Gentiles into the people of God. God will banish ungodliness from Jacob and remove their sins through this plan to bring Israel to jealousy over the full inclusion of the Gentiles.

I hope that helps clarify my views on these texts.
I appreciate greatly that explanation of Romans 11 and I can't wait to get to heaven so I can choke Paul for so often writing things "hard to be understood".
 
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Keeth

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StanJ said:
They're not MY definitions, they're from experts, and the fact that you've heard it all before and refuse to recognise the truth therein just shows you won't accept it so there's no real use in continuing to tell you what you will not receive or refuse to understand. You obviously came here to search for itchy ears, but I doubt you'll find any.
Ac 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

So tell us StanJ, just who is it that can be saved under a different name than that of Jesus Christ. If Peter was not referring to all Jews, even all the world, which Jews and others can and will be saved apart from the name and by faith in Jesus Christ. Just exactly who is exempt from this truth?
 

StanJ

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Keeth said:
So tell us StanJ, just who is it that can be saved under a different name than that of Jesus Christ. If Peter was not referring to all Jews, even all the world, which Jews and others can and will be saved apart from the name and by faith in Jesus Christ. Just exactly who is exempt from this truth?
You read and even underline the word and still don't understand what it says Keeth? It's pretty clear English to me and is basically Christianity 101. What don't you get?
 

Keeth

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StanJ said:
You read and even underline the word and still don't understand what it says Keeth? It's pretty clear English to me and is basically Christianity 101. What don't you get?
I don't get why you deny that Peter was addressing all of Israel, when the truth that he decalred is universal and applies not only to all of Israel, but to the entire human family.
 

StanJ

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Keeth said:
I don't get why you deny that Peter was addressing all of Israel, when the truth that he decalred is universal and applies not only to all of Israel, but to the entire human family.
Well I guess that is because you have a problem understanding. I NEVER said Peter did not refer to all of Israel or even mean it for all of Israel. The operative word is ALL and how you want it to mean the same thing in every use but that it does NOT. If you still don't understand then I suggest you re-read all my posts in question and try to understand what they are directed at, although IMO you already do, but are now vacillating.
 

Wormwood

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Lol Phoneman777. I hear you. Perhaps he wanted to help us practice love in these areas since he knew we wouldn't agree on them! :)
 
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brakelite

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The following is based on an article entitled "Who is Real Israel" presented by two Jewish converts to the Christian faith, both pastors.

Who is true Israel? Is it the physical nation fighting for its existence in the Middle East, or is it the spiritual entity we know as the church. And if its the church, which one?
The name “Israel” first appears in the Bible in Genesis 32:28 After a night of wrestling with the heavenly visitor (who I personally believe to be Christ Himself) Jacob prevails in his efforts and his name is changed from Jacob, the deceiver or supplanter, to Israel, meaning he will rule. Jacob has prevailed with God and overcome.
At the time of this event, Jacob was reluctant to face Esau after 20 years of exile and was quite simply terrified of him. His former deception of his father and claim to be Esau was now playing on his conscience and he desired God’s blessing and forgiveness before proceeding. So the ‘Angel’ asks Jacob his name, to which he truthfully replies ‘my name is Jacob’. In this he was confessing his guilt, and God then knew he was a changed man, so gave him a new name that celebrated so to speak his victory over sin, self and his night of wrestling in prayer, the ‘Angel’ saying “for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.”
Israel, as a name therefore represents spiritual victory over sin.

This is significant as it tells us God’s purpose for His people. That is, to live in victory over sin, to show forth God’s true character to the world.
In Exod 4:22,23 Moses is instructed on how he is to speak to Pharaoh in order that Israel’s descendants may be freed from slavery. God says to Moses “and thou shalt say unto Pharaoh ‘Thus saith the Lord,Israel is My son, my firstborn and I say unto thee let My son go to serve me…”
This is the first time Israel is used in a corporate sense for the entire nation. Before it applied only to an individual, but here we see it being applied to his descendants. First to a victorious man, then to his people.
Did Israel live up to that name? What was God trying to accomplish in establishing Israel in the first place? Was it not that He would have a people to represent Him on the earth? Before God had His champions, but all failed. Sin interposed and no longer was any of God’s chosen able to fulfill the true destiny that God intended for them. Adam failed over appetite. So did Noah. Abraham also, but God was determined to establish a people after His own heart and show the gentiles His law, His mercy and grace and power. Interesting that Adam, Noah, and Israel all failed on points of appetite. (Gen 9:20,21; Exodus 16:27-29.)
It wasn’t until Jesus came on the scene in person that the title “Israel” in it’s truest spiritual sense and power could be rightly bestowed. And Mathew in particular showed this time and time again how Jesus was the fulfillment of the OT prophecies which may have originally applied to the nation, but now, according to Mathew’s inspired writings, applied in fact to Jesus. Examples are Hosea 11:1 ; Isaiah 41:8,42:1-3
Paul followed the same idea and reasoning by paralleling Col 1:15 with Ex 4:22, Gal 3:16 with Isaiah 41:8 and elsewhere.
Jesus Himself proclaimed Himself as the true vine, in fulfilment of Ps 80:8 which applied to the nation.
So now the mantle and authority once bestowed upon the nation has been given to Jesus. Jesus is the essence of true Israel. He only has the right to bear the name for He only has prevailed with sin and overcome. Jesus walked over the same ground that Israel walked, but came through victorious. In His temptations in the wilderness, it was appetite that came under particular scrutiny.
What Paul does in Romans and other writers in the NT however is extend that idea and show how the name Israel also now applies to Jesus’ descendants, just as it did to Jacob’s descendants. Peter also showed this when he compared the church to Exodus 19:6.(1 Peter 2:9).
So as Paul says, immediately after saying that Jesus is the ‘seed’ of Abraham, Gentile converts in Galatia were now also Abraham’s seed because they are Christ’s. They are also heirs according to the promise.
This is not ‘replacement ‘ theology. It is merely a revelation of who true Israel always was and who Israel is now. It is those people, of whatever nation kindred tongue and people, who by faith in the mercy grace and power of God overcome sin and receive Christ’s righteousness and forgiveness as a gift and are willing to share that gift with the lost. True Israel was always exclusively those who “as princes had power with God and men and prevailed”.
Thus the unfulfilled covenant that Jeremiah speaks of and repeated in hebrews, “I will place My laws in their hearts and in their minds I will write them” applies to the church, not a resurgent nation. All Israel will be saved, but the descendants of Jesus, not flesh and blood descendants of Jacob.
And the prophecies that most believe apply to the nation, apply to the church. For example, Armageddon is not the world arrayed against the nation of Israel, but the unsaved world (those who have accepted the mark) arrayed against the remnant who have refused the mark, and are under the sentence of death. Those who keep the commandments of God, (and thus have gained that victory over sin) and have the faith of Jesus. Rev.12:17; 14:12.

For what purpose was Israel chosen in the first place? Was it not to reveal the character and love of God to as world lost in idolatry and pagan perversions?
Not only so, but also for the fact that God loved man so much that He simply wanted to have someone to fellowship with. So He chose Abraham, and accepted His descendants as His special people because of Abraham's obedience. God's continuing favour was conditional however on Israel's continuing obedience and faithfulnass. God certainly promised that He would never reject them, but He gave many warnings of what would result of their rejecting Him.

By the time of Jesus, the national religion was so corrupted that they were suffering relentlessly under the harsh rule of an occupying power. A fulfilment of one of the warnings. That Jesus came though confirms God's faithfulness. He had not yet rejected them. He was giving them every opportunity to repent, and reestablish truth to their now formalised and meaningless ceremonies. Jesus came to set them straight. He was the last in a long line of prophets who were sent by the owner of the vineyard, all of whom they killed. Would they kill the Son also?

When Jesus entered the temple for the first time He found it a mess.
So Jesus went about to clean up His Father's house.
John 2:13 And the Jews’ passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise.
17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.



Then, later on in His ministry, again He visited the temple, only to find it had reverted to what it had been before, So, again Jesus cleansed it.

Mathew 21:12 ¶ And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.



When the Jews questioned Jesus authority, He told them the following parable.



Mathew 21:33 ¶ Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.



Notice this very important thing. When cleansing the temple the first time, Jesus called it My Father's house.

At the second cleansing, Jesus quoted the OT and referred to it again as being My house.

Continuing to reject Jesus authority and teaching however, brought upon the religious rulers the woes of Mathew 23. Denunciations of no mean character and judgment.
Jesus laments their obstinacy and rebellion with His heart rendering cry of "O Jerusalem,Jerusalem. thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Then take careful note. He finishes His address with the following words.
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.


Whose house is it now? Is it God's house? No.His Father's house? No. My house? No. He says Your house!!! They rejected the Son, therefore the kingdom was given to a nation that would bear the fruit and fulfill the purposes that God originally intended. The church. A holy nation, a royal priesthood.

Has God rejected His people though? No. They can still be grafted back into the vine, but they must first renounce and repent of their rejection of their Messiah and accept Him. Then, and only then, can any Jew enter the kingdom of God. Same condition as set out for anyone else. "No man cometh unto the Father except by Me."
 

Phoneman777

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brakelite said:
The following is based on an article entitled "Who is Real Israel" presented by two Jewish converts to the Christian faith, both pastors.

Who is true Israel? Is it the physical nation fighting for its existence in the Middle East, or is it the spiritual entity we know as the church. And if its the church, which one?
The name “Israel” first appears in the Bible in Genesis 32:28 After a night of wrestling with the heavenly visitor (who I personally believe to be Christ Himself) Jacob prevails in his efforts and his name is changed from Jacob, the deceiver or supplanter, to Israel, meaning he will rule. Jacob has prevailed with God and overcome.
At the time of this event, Jacob was reluctant to face Esau after 20 years of exile and was quite simply terrified of him. His former deception of his father and claim to be Esau was now playing on his conscience and he desired God’s blessing and forgiveness before proceeding. So the ‘Angel’ asks Jacob his name, to which he truthfully replies ‘my name is Jacob’. In this he was confessing his guilt, and God then knew he was a changed man, so gave him a new name that celebrated so to speak his victory over sin, self and his night of wrestling in prayer, the ‘Angel’ saying “for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.”
Israel, as a name therefore represents spiritual victory over sin.

This is significant as it tells us God’s purpose for His people. That is, to live in victory over sin, to show forth God’s true character to the world.
In Exod 4:22,23 Moses is instructed on how he is to speak to Pharaoh in order that Israel’s descendants may be freed from slavery. God says to Moses “and thou shalt say unto Pharaoh ‘Thus saith the Lord,Israel is My son, my firstborn and I say unto thee let My son go to serve me…”
This is the first time Israel is used in a corporate sense for the entire nation. Before it applied only to an individual, but here we see it being applied to his descendants. First to a victorious man, then to his people.
Did Israel live up to that name? What was God trying to accomplish in establishing Israel in the first place? Was it not that He would have a people to represent Him on the earth? Before God had His champions, but all failed. Sin interposed and no longer was any of God’s chosen able to fulfill the true destiny that God intended for them. Adam failed over appetite. So did Noah. Abraham also, but God was determined to establish a people after His own heart and show the gentiles His law, His mercy and grace and power. Interesting that Adam, Noah, and Israel all failed on points of appetite. (Gen 9:20,21; Exodus 16:27-29.)
It wasn’t until Jesus came on the scene in person that the title “Israel” in it’s truest spiritual sense and power could be rightly bestowed. And Mathew in particular showed this time and time again how Jesus was the fulfillment of the OT prophecies which may have originally applied to the nation, but now, according to Mathew’s inspired writings, applied in fact to Jesus. Examples are Hosea 11:1 ; Isaiah 41:8,42:1-3
Paul followed the same idea and reasoning by paralleling Col 1:15 with Ex 4:22, Gal 3:16 with Isaiah 41:8 and elsewhere.
Jesus Himself proclaimed Himself as the true vine, in fulfilment of Ps 80:8 which applied to the nation.
So now the mantle and authority once bestowed upon the nation has been given to Jesus. Jesus is the essence of true Israel. He only has the right to bear the name for He only has prevailed with sin and overcome. Jesus walked over the same ground that Israel walked, but came through victorious. In His temptations in the wilderness, it was appetite that came under particular scrutiny.
What Paul does in Romans and other writers in the NT however is extend that idea and show how the name Israel also now applies to Jesus’ descendants, just as it did to Jacob’s descendants. Peter also showed this when he compared the church to Exodus 19:6.(1 Peter 2:9).
So as Paul says, immediately after saying that Jesus is the ‘seed’ of Abraham, Gentile converts in Galatia were now also Abraham’s seed because they are Christ’s. They are also heirs according to the promise.
This is not ‘replacement ‘ theology. It is merely a revelation of who true Israel always was and who Israel is now. It is those people, of whatever nation kindred tongue and people, who by faith in the mercy grace and power of God overcome sin and receive Christ’s righteousness and forgiveness as a gift and are willing to share that gift with the lost. True Israel was always exclusively those who “as princes had power with God and men and prevailed”.
Thus the unfulfilled covenant that Jeremiah speaks of and repeated in hebrews, “I will place My laws in their hearts and in their minds I will write them” applies to the church, not a resurgent nation. All Israel will be saved, but the descendants of Jesus, not flesh and blood descendants of Jacob.
And the prophecies that most believe apply to the nation, apply to the church. For example, Armageddon is not the world arrayed against the nation of Israel, but the unsaved world (those who have accepted the mark) arrayed against the remnant who have refused the mark, and are under the sentence of death. Those who keep the commandments of God, (and thus have gained that victory over sin) and have the faith of Jesus. Rev.12:17; 14:12.

For what purpose was Israel chosen in the first place? Was it not to reveal the character and love of God to as world lost in idolatry and pagan perversions?
Not only so, but also for the fact that God loved man so much that He simply wanted to have someone to fellowship with. So He chose Abraham, and accepted His descendants as His special people because of Abraham's obedience. God's continuing favour was conditional however on Israel's continuing obedience and faithfulnass. God certainly promised that He would never reject them, but He gave many warnings of what would result of their rejecting Him.

By the time of Jesus, the national religion was so corrupted that they were suffering relentlessly under the harsh rule of an occupying power. A fulfilment of one of the warnings. That Jesus came though confirms God's faithfulness. He had not yet rejected them. He was giving them every opportunity to repent, and reestablish truth to their now formalised and meaningless ceremonies. Jesus came to set them straight. He was the last in a long line of prophets who were sent by the owner of the vineyard, all of whom they killed. Would they kill the Son also?

When Jesus entered the temple for the first time He found it a mess.
So Jesus went about to clean up His Father's house.
John 2:13 And the Jews’ passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise.
17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.



Then, later on in His ministry, again He visited the temple, only to find it had reverted to what it had been before, So, again Jesus cleansed it.

Mathew 21:12 ¶ And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.



When the Jews questioned Jesus authority, He told them the following parable.



Mathew 21:33 ¶ Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.



Notice this very important thing. When cleansing the temple the first time, Jesus called it My Father's house.

At the second cleansing, Jesus quoted the OT and referred to it again as being My house.

Continuing to reject Jesus authority and teaching however, brought upon the religious rulers the woes of Mathew 23. Denunciations of no mean character and judgment.
Jesus laments their obstinacy and rebellion with His heart rendering cry of "O Jerusalem,Jerusalem. thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Then take careful note. He finishes His address with the following words.
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.


Whose house is it now? Is it God's house? No.His Father's house? No. My house? No. He says Your house!!! They rejected the Son, therefore the kingdom was given to a nation that would bear the fruit and fulfill the purposes that God originally intended. The church. A holy nation, a royal priesthood.

Has God rejected His people though? No. They can still be grafted back into the vine, but they must first renounce and repent of their rejection of their Messiah and accept Him. Then, and only then, can any Jew enter the kingdom of God. Same condition as set out for anyone else. "No man cometh unto the Father except by Me."
Nuthin more pathetic than for so called "Christians" to claim themselves to be "more than conquerors", "victorious", and "overcomers", while they remain slaves to sin and Satan. That's why they feebly argue that these titles don't refer to triumphing over sin, but triumphing over death, as if they are going to rise up out of the grave desiring to obey and serve Jesus for all eternity when they went down into the grave despising the Holy Spirit's pleadings that they stop doing the things which made necessary necessary Jesus' unspeakable torture and death in the first place. To their shock and amazement, they will sadly hear Jesus say, "I never knew you...Depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
 

Keeth

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StanJ said:
Well I guess that is because you have a problem understanding. I NEVER said Peter did not refer to all of Israel or even mean it for all of Israel. The operative word is ALL and how you want it to mean the same thing in every use but that it does NOT. If you still don't understand then I suggest you re-read all my posts in question and try to understand what they are directed at, although IMO you already do, but are now vacillating.
Now we have a problem, the following is a quote from you, from post #77(emphasis mine)

Your vernacular doesn't prove itself Keeth. Israel is a nation of the world and those that are part of the Kingdom of God are from ALL nations. Only Israel has been created and promised a future, unlike ANY other nation of earth, either from yesterday or today or the future.
Peter was NOT addressing ALL the people of Israel, he was addressing the leadership in Jerusalem. Which claimed to represent ALL Israelites, when in fact they did not. Many had already believed and many more would, but none of them lost their citizenship, only their membership in Judaism.
 

StanJ

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Keeth said:
Now we have a problem, the following is a quote from you, from post #77(emphasis mine)
No, again it's you that has a problem, because you don't know how to read or insist on equivocating and prevaricating about what I write in black and white.

You need to actually be able to read with comprehension in order to understand what Peter WAS saying and WHO He was saying it to (addressing)

The next day the rulers, the elders and the teachers of the law met in Jerusalem. 6 Annas the high priest was there, and so were Caiaphas, John, Alexander and others of the high priest’s family. 7 They had Peter and John brought before them and began to question them: “By what power or what name did you do this?”
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: “Rulers and elders of the people!

I can assure you that I do NOT have a problem with conveying what I mean and want to say, and I DON'T equivocate or prevaricate as you apparently do.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
Phoneman777 said:
Nuthin more pathetic than for so called "Christians" to claim themselves to be "more than conquerors", "victorious", and "overcomers", while they remain slaves to sin and Satan. That's why they feebly argue that these titles don't refer to triumphing over sin, but triumphing over death, as if they are going to rise up out of the grave desiring to obey and serve Jesus for all eternity when they went down into the grave despising the Holy Spirit's pleadings that they stop doing the things which made necessary necessary Jesus' unspeakable torture and death in the first place. To their shock and amazement, they will sadly hear Jesus say, "I never knew you...Depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
I can appreciate others concern sometimes as it does seem that ones such as you and I do go on somewhat about the law...they choose to forget however the many times we, and others I am sure, have repeated many times that one cannot obey God's laws by focusing on them, but by faith looking to their Savior, who is true to His promises, and fills those with the righteousness He promised. It is so strange however that they cannot see that the fruits of righteousness can't be anything else but to be in harmony with God's commandments. Thus if our lives are not in accord or in harmony with God's laws, then we must look to our relationship to discover where we are falling short. Problem is so few are willing to do that. It means being transparent. Honest. Submissive. All virtues that directly antagonize mans' ego. Like the Word says of the church in these last days....men shall be lovers of pleasure (themselves) more than lovers of God.
Interestingly, it isn't just Adventists who aren't popular for rebuking sin and unbelief. I really like much of what I hear from Paul Washer...but he has his enemies too.
Some scriptures are really hard for the stubborn to handle. Such as "To the law and the testimony; if they speak not according to this word, there is no light in them". Isa 8:20
 

Keeth

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Apr 11, 2015
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StanJ said:
No, again it's you that has a problem, because you don't know how to read or insist on equivocating and prevaricating about what I write in black and white.

You need to actually be able to read with comprehension in order to understand what Peter WAS saying and WHO He was saying it to (addressing)

The next day the rulers, the elders and the teachers of the law met in Jerusalem. 6 Annas the high priest was there, and so were Caiaphas, John, Alexander and others of the high priest’s family. 7 They had Peter and John brought before them and began to question them: “By what power or what name did you do this?”
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: “Rulers and elders of the people!

I can assure you that I do NOT have a problem with conveying what I mean and want to say, and I DON'T equivocate or prevaricate as you apparently do.
I think you need to get over yourself. You're not the topic at hand. I don't care if you are superior or inferior in reality or just in your own mind. Was the truth Peter stated to all Israel or not? Was it a universal truth which applies to all, even the Jews or not?
 

StanJ

Lifelong student of God's Word.
May 13, 2014
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Keeth said:
I think you need to get over yourself. You're not the topic at hand. I don't care if you are superior or inferior in reality or just in your own mind. Was the truth Peter stated to all Israel or not? Was it a universal truth which applies to all, even the Jews or not?
I think it is obvious that what you think is of no consequence here, as far as I'm concerned, and as you have brought the tone of this thread down to your level of abasement and ad hominem, as you seem to do with all threads you participate in, I really have no desire to repeat myself.
 

newbirth

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hopefuldivider said:
I do not know if I want to enter this debate or not, but I would like to point something out. There are two very different views that are often lumped together as "replacement theology".

There is true replacement theology which views a dramatic break between the old and new covenant and between Israel and the Church. At the danger of sounding crass, sort of an out with the old and in with the new. The Jews were rejected for their lack of faith and disobedience, so God simply chose a new people, sort of divorcing the old.

The other view does not see such a dramatic break. In this view, gentiles were added to Israel to form the church. As such the church did not replace Israel but is Israel. In other words the two terms refer to the same body. Those that hold to this view generally also hold to the view that unregenerate Jews, as a whole, will eventually be saved, but not as a separate entity. This view holds that they will be grafted back into Israel from whence they came.

I hope this helps.
very good point...although I would not say the Jews were replaced or rejected....but were blinded that the gentiles might be grafted in...the Jews are the children of Israel .... Ths gentiles are not called by the promise to Israel ...but by the promise to Abraham....So while the Jews are included in the promise to Abraham ...Gentiles are not included in the promise to Israel......
Romans 9:27
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:


Genesis 26:4
And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;