Replacement Theology

[James Forthwright]

Would anyone care to debate on the subject of Replacement Theology?
That is, that the Church has superseded or replaced the Jews in the fulfillment of
scriptural prophecies.

I would argue in the affirmative.

 

[StanJ]

I would have to disagree James. God will keep his promise to His people, the Jews, but Christians are under a NEW covenant. This includes those that would be considered "completed Jews".
Revelation shows how God will accomplish this.

 

[James Forthwright]

I would have to disagree James. God will keep his promise to His people, the Jews, but Christians are under a NEW covenant. This includes those that would be considered "completed Jews".
Revelation shows how God will accomplish this.

Thanks for the prompt response, Stan. I guess the main point of dispute is the definition of "His people". From my perspective renouncing Christ (Yahshua) as Messiah as well as refusing to acknowledge His redemptive
sacrifice for our sins on Calvary disqualifies anyone, Jew or Gentile, from inclusion to the family of God and thereby disqualifies themselves as "His people".

Could you be more specific in your reference as to how the Book of Revelation supports your claims? After a Jew has died (without ever accepting Christ as Lord) do you believe they can be granted salvation?

Concerning your use of the term "completed Jews" how are they any different in God's eyes to Gentile Christians?

Another bewildering aspect I've noted is that, generally speaking, converts from one religion to another are usually quite critical of their former faith. As a former Catholic, for instance, I am readily able to converse
at length on the numerous fallacies of Catholicism. Regarding Jewish converts to Christianity a.k.a. "completed Jews", I've yet to meet one who dares to grab that doctrinal bull by the horns.

 

[StanJ]

Thanks for the prompt response, Stan. I guess the main point of dispute is the definition of "His people". From my perspective renouncing Christ (Yahshua) as Messiah as well as refusing to acknowledge His redemptivesacrifice for our sins on Calvary disqualifies anyone, Jew or Gentile, from inclusion to the family of God and thereby disqualifies themselves as "His people".Could you be more specific in your reference as to how the Book of Revelation supports your claims? After a Jew has died (without ever accepting Christ as Lord) do you believe they can be granted salvation?Concerning your use of the term "completed Jews" how are they any different in God's eyes to Gentile Christians?Another bewildering aspect I've noted is that, generally speaking, converts from one religion to another are usually quite critical of their former faith. As a former Catholic, for instance, I am readily able to converseat length on the numerous fallacies of Catholicism. Regarding Jewish converts to Christianity a.k.a. "completed Jews", I've yet to meet one who dares to grab that doctrinal bull by the horns.

IMO, only those who personally heard the message of Jesus in His day renounced Him as their Messiah, but that was still forgivable as Jesus Himself said.
You're right, there is no Jew or Gentile in God's eyes under the NC, but there is under the old and under that, the 144,000 in Rev 7 & 14, will be used to bring His people to repentance.
As an ex RC myself, I have no problem speaking to them either, but I am much more sensitive than I used to be about labeling them all as unbelievers.
I grew up in Montreal and knew many from Jews for Jesus, and for most of my professional career, I worked for Jewish companies. I have a certain empathy and understanding of their beliefs.
You'll discover I have no problem dealing with bull!

 

[Butch5]

Would anyone care to debate on the subject of Replacement Theology?
That is, that the Church has superseded or replaced the Jews in the fulfillment of
scriptural prophecies.

I would argue in the affirmative.

I'm not familiar of the intricacies of replacement theology, however, I would submit that, the premise, the church replaced Israel is not what the Scriptures teach. God's plan to save mankind has been the same from the beginning, salvation would come through Abraham and his Seed.

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. (Gen 12:3 KJV)

14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee. (Gen 13:14-17 KJV)

God promised the land to Abraham and his Seed. However, Abraham never received that land while he was alive.


KJV Acts 7:1 Then said the high priest, Are these things so?
2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child. (Act 7:1-5 KJV)

Stephen says that although God promised the land to Abraham and his Seed, Abraham never received the land. This promise was also made to Isaac and Jacob, but the never received the land either. Paul said,


8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. (Heb 11:8-13 KJV)

The promise was that they would inherit the land and that all nations would be blessed through them and their Seed. The Jews believed that they were this promised seed, however, Paul points out that they are not the promised seed. He says that when God made the promise to Abraham He did not says seeds as of many but rather He said seed as of one. He says that that Seed is Christ.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal 3:16 KJV)

So, the promise has been the same from the very beginning, the Jews simply misunderstood who the Seed was. They understood seed as plural, but Paul says that God meant seed singular, one Seed which is Christ.

Jesus said, 'salvation is of the Jews' and Paul tells the Gentiles in Rome that they are grafted into the Israel.


15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; {among them: or, for them}
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. (Rom 11:15-21 KJV)

It's been one plan from the beginning. The land inheritance is yet to be fulfilled. It will be fulfilled at the resurrection.

 

[hopefuldivider]

Would anyone care to debate on the subject of Replacement Theology?
That is, that the Church has superseded or replaced the Jews in the fulfillment of
scriptural prophecies.

I would argue in the affirmative.

I do not know if I want to enter this debate or not, but I would like to point something out. There are two very different views that are often lumped together as "replacement theology".

There is true replacement theology which views a dramatic break between the old and new covenant and between Israel and the Church. At the danger of sounding crass, sort of an out with the old and in with the new. The Jews were rejected for their lack of faith and disobedience, so God simply chose a new people, sort of divorcing the old.

The other view does not see such a dramatic break. In this view, gentiles were added to Israel to form the church. As such the church did not replace Israel but is Israel. In other words the two terms refer to the same body. Those that hold to this view generally also hold to the view that unregenerate Jews, as a whole, will eventually be saved, but not as a separate entity. This view holds that they will be grafted back into Israel from whence they came.

I hope this helps.

 

[aspen]

Jesus was a Jew. He was also inclusive. Paul was not interested in excluding Jewish Christions. Jesus was a fulfillment of the law not a replacement for the Law

 

[ATP]

RT is false doctrine.

 

[James Forthwright]

First of all, sincere thanks to all who responded to this thread. Since so far I’m the only one arguing for the doctrine of Replacement Theology and expect to be vastly outnumbered I will of necessity be rather selective in my responses. Don’t feel slighted if your reply is not addressed.

IMO, only those who personally heard the message of Jesus in His day renounced Him as their Messiah, but that was still forgivable as Jesus Himself said.

That’s a rather IMO grossly magnanimous approach to salvation Stan. If that is the case why bother testifying to modern day Jews? Seems like they’d be better off remaining in ignorance of the Messiah than having the opportunity to reject Him.

You're right, there is no Jew or Gentile in God's eyes under the NC, but there is under the old and under that, the 144,000 in Rev 7 & 14, will be used to bring His people to repentance.

There is no Old Covenant any more. It doesn’t exist for anyone, Jew or Gentile. There is no temple in Jerusalem, no Levitical priesthood making sacrifices for sin.
The 144,000 is probably a symbolic number of 12,000 from each tribe of Israel. And most of those that “call themselves Jews” these days have no direct lineage to the original Israelites.
Lastly, the call to repentance would have no effect on those Jews who have already died since the resurrection of Christ Jesus.

Regarding the term “His people” there are two key scriptures from Christ Himself that need to be understood.

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Mat. 7:20)
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me (John. 10:27)

I grew up in Montreal and knew many from Jews for Jesus, and for most of my professional career, I worked for Jewish companies. I have a certain empathy and understanding of their beliefs.
You'll discover I have no problem dealing with bull!

[/QUOTE]I wasn’t questioning YOUR reluctance in dealing with bull but precisely those Jews for Jesus a.k.a. Messianic Jews utter timidity in criticizing their unregenerate Jewish brethren’s doctrinal beliefs. Upon further reflection, there are but TWO Jews that I’m aware of who converted to Christianity that dared to confront the fallacies of their former faith (Benjamin H. Freedman and Brother Nathanael Kapner). They appear to be rarer than hen’s teeth. How do you explain this strange phenomenon?

I'm not familiar of the intricacies of replacement theology, however, I would submit that, the premise, the church replaced Israel is not what the Scriptures teach. God's plan to save mankind has been the same from the beginning, salvation would come through Abraham and his Seed.
The promise was that they would inherit the land and that all nations would be blessed through them and their Seed. The Jews believed that they were this promised seed, however, Paul points out that they are not the promised seed. He says that when God made the promise to Abraham He did not says seeds as of many but rather He said seed as of one. He says that that Seed is Christ.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal 3:16 KJV)

Now on this point we are in complete agreement. The Promise pertains largely not unto a physical Abrahamic seed (of which there are many besides those that call themselves Jews) but unto Christ and those faithful sheep that are “in Christ” who follow in His footsteps.

Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. (Luk 3:8)

 

[Butch5]

First of all, sincere thanks to all who responded to this thread. Since so far I’m the only one arguing for the doctrine of Replacement Theology and expect to be vastly outnumbered I will of necessity be rather selective in my responses. Don’t feel slighted if your reply is not addressed.




That’s a rather IMO grossly magnanimous approach to salvation Stan. If that is the case why bother testifying to modern day Jews? Seems like they’d be better off remaining in ignorance of the Messiah than having the opportunity to reject Him.



There is no Old Covenant any more. It doesn’t exist for anyone, Jew or Gentile. There is no temple in Jerusalem, no Levitical priesthood making sacrifices for sin.
The 144,000 is probably a symbolic number of 12,000 from each tribe of Israel. And most of those that “call themselves Jews” these days have no direct lineage to the original Israelites.
Lastly, the call to repentance would have no effect on those Jews who have already died since the resurrection of Christ Jesus.

Regarding the term “His people” there are two key scriptures from Christ Himself that need to be understood.

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Mat. 7:20)
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me (John. 10:27)


I wasn’t questioning YOUR reluctance in dealing with bull but precisely those Jews for Jesus a.k.a. Messianic Jews utter timidity in criticizing their unregenerate Jewish brethren’s doctrinal beliefs. Upon further reflection, there are but TWO Jews that I’m aware of who converted to Christianity that dared to confront the fallacies of their former faith (Benjamin H. Freedman and Brother Nathanael Kapner). They appear to be rarer than hen’s teeth. How do you explain this strange phenomenon?



Now on this point we are in complete agreement. The Promise pertains largely not unto a physical Abrahamic seed (of which there are many besides those that call themselves Jews) but unto Christ and those faithful sheep that are “in Christ” who follow in His footsteps.

Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. (Luk 3:8)

I see one plan from the beginning which has been in the process of being fulfilled by God through time. I believe that the land promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be fulfilled in the resurrection.

 

[Wormwood]

The church is the fulfillment of all of God's promises. I don't like the term "replacement theology" because I don't think the church "replaces" Israel. Rather, I think the church is true Israel that consists of both Jews and Gentiles. Gentiles have been grafted in and through faith in the Messiah, become part of true Israel. I think the view that the church is simply a dispensation is very troubling. I find the emphasis on physical Israel to be very similar to a modern day Judaizing where people become more focused on the flesh of Abraham rather than the faith of Abraham. Paul was willing to lose his life over this debate so I think it is no small issue. According to Paul, there is no more Jew or Gentile in Christ. Thus, in Christ we become children of Abraham. To argue that the church is predominately "Gentile" and God has a future plan for the Jews that will come about once the Gentiles are raptured away, not only shows favoritism by God, but also reconstructs the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile that Christ tore down. ALL of God's promises are "yes" in Christ.

 

[hopefuldivider]

Food for thought:

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."
(Galatians 3:16)

What does this say of the land promise to Abraham?

 

[Webers_Home]

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to
seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."
(Galatians 3:16) What does this say of the land promise to
Abraham?

I'm pretty sure that, within the context of Paul's letter, the promises referred
to have no bearing upon the land seeing as how the focus is upon Christ
instead. Here's some wording from the promises.

†. Gen 22:18 . . And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed

The "seed" in that wording can only refer to Christ seeing as none of the rest
of Abraham's posterity ever did something that benefited all the nations of
the whole earth; but Christ did.

†. 1John 2:2 . . And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only,
but also for the sins of the whole world.

==============================================

 

[StanJ]

That’s a rather IMO grossly magnanimous approach to salvation Stan. If that is the case why bother testifying to modern day Jews? Seems like they’d be better off remaining in ignorance of the Messiah than having the opportunity to reject Him.

Well they have to do it without the Holy Spirit and to clarify, they still have to accept Jesus and go through the tribulation. Sorry responding from my tablet has proved challenging in this environment so I'm going to limit long posts like this to my pc.
I think it is more a last chance than assurance of salvation. Rev 7:13-17

There is no Old Covenant any more. It doesn’t exist for anyone, Jew or Gentile. There is no temple in Jerusalem, no Levitical priesthood making sacrifices for sin.
The 144,000 is probably a symbolic number of 12,000 from each tribe of Israel. And most of those that “call themselves Jews” these days have no direct lineage to the original Israelites.
Lastly, the call to repentance would have no effect on those Jews who have already died since the resurrection of Christ Jesus.

That we are not under the OC doesn't mean others didn't follow it. People still today use obsolete things. I agree that there has been no priesthood since the temple's destruction and that it faded away afterwards. They are used of God as Rev 14 shows and they are indeed from the tribes of Israel, as depicted in v5-8.
Yes I think that is probably correct but also not ALL Jews who died since Jesus' day are unsaved.

 

[Butch5]

Food for thought:

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."
(Galatians 3:16)

What does this say of the land promise to Abraham?

The land was a part of that promise that God made to Abraham.

14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. (Gen 13:14-16 KJV)


8 And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
10 And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.
11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.
12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. {a burning...: Heb. a lamp of fire}
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: (Gen 15:8-18 KJV)


4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. {many...: Heb. multitude of nations}
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. {Abraham: that is, Father of a great multitude}
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. (Gen 17:4-8 KJV)

The land was promised to Abraham and his Seed, the same promise was made to Isaac and Jacob. What Paul does in Gal three is clarify that the Seed that his land was promised to is Christ. The Jews believed they were this promised seed but Paul says no, the Seed that these promises are to is Christ. David prophesies the words of Christ in Psalm 2 with these words.


6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. {set: Heb. anointed} {upon...: Heb. upon Zion, the hill of my holiness}
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. {the decree: or, for a decree}
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
(Psa 2:6-8 KJV)

The word translated "earth" is land. God promised the uttermost parts of the land to Christ.

 

[StanJ]

I wasn’t questioning YOUR reluctance in dealing with bull but precisely those Jews for Jesus a.k.a. Messianic Jews utter timidity in criticizing their unregenerate Jewish brethren’s doctrinal beliefs. Upon further reflection, there are but TWO Jews that I’m aware of who converted to Christianity that dared to confront the fallacies of their former faith (Benjamin H. Freedman and Brother Nathanael Kapner). They appear to be rarer than hen’s teeth. How do you explain this strange phenomenon?

Well that was NOT my experience and they were much more aggressive than other denominations who simply castigated Jews but didn't really have a desire to see them saved. I don't know the men you refer to but my dealings with Jews has always been on a one-to-one basis. I personally find some Messianic groups to be far too sectarian for my liking. I ran into a group on a forum one time where if you were NOT a Messianic Jew, you could not participate in their discussions, which sadly some were way off base. Sadly this happens throughout the body of believers, not just the completed Jews. As you stated, RCs have the same problem in getting away from their traditions and assimilating actual Christian tradition. Bottom line under the NC is that there is no special treatment for ANY group....we are all the same in God's eyes, despite that fact that some as still not treated as such, for example women.

 

[Phoneman777]

Would anyone care to debate on the subject of Replacement Theology?
That is, that the Church has superseded or replaced the Jews in the fulfillment of
scriptural prophecies.

I would argue in the affirmative.

You are correct. God's done with the nation of Israel. Those who see as "irrefutable proof" the events of 1948 that God still has a "plan for Israel" fail to see that it was God Himself Who declared through Solomon that the condition upon which Israel was to be gathered back to Him after being scattered to the wind was REPENTANCE, and there is not a single instance in Scripture where God gathered them back to the land without them having first met that condition. It was the U.N. and their occult operatives through political intrigue who are responsible for the modern nation of Israel. "IF ye be Christ's, THEN are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29 KJV

 

[ATP]

God's done with the nation of Israel.

God is certainly not done with Israel.

Psalm 83:16-18 NIV Cover their faces with shame, Lord, so that they will seek your name. 17May they ever be ashamed and dismayed; may they perish in disgrace. 18Let them know that you, whose name is the Lord—that you alone are the Most High over all the earth.

Isa 63:7-9 NIV I will tell of the kindnesses of the Lord, the deeds for which he is to be praised, according to all the Lord has done for us—yes, the many good things he has done for Israel, according to his compassion and many kindnesses. 8He said, “Surely they are my people, children who will be true to me”; and so he became their Savior. 9In all their distress he too was distressed, and the angel of his presence saved them. In his love and mercy he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old.

Isa 63:14 NIV like cattle that go down to the plain, they were given rest by the Spirit of the Lord. This is how you guided your people to make for yourself a glorious name.

Jer 16:14-15 NIV / Jer 23:7-8 NIV “So then, the days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when people will no longer say, ‘As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,’ 8but they will say, ‘As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the descendants of Israel up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.’ Then they will live in their own land.”

Ez 37:19-23 NIV say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim’s hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah’s stick. I will make them into a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.’ 20Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on 21and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

Ez 38:17-23 NIV “ ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: You are the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel. At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them. 18This is what will happen in that day: When Gog attacks the land of Israel, my hot anger will be aroused, declares the Sovereign Lord. 19In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. 20The fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence. The mountains will be overturned, the cliffs will crumble and every wall will fall to the ground. 21I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign Lord. Every man’s sword will be against his brother. 22I will execute judgment on him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him. 23And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord.’

Ez 39:25-29 NIV “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will now restore the fortunes of Jacob and will have compassion on all the people of Israel, and I will be zealous for my holy name. 26They will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid. 27When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will be proved holy through them in the sight of many nations. 28Then they will know that I am the Lord their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind. 29I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord.”

Micah 2:12-13 NIV “I will surely gather all of you, Jacob; I will surely bring together the remnant of Israel. I will bring them together like sheep in a pen, like a flock in its pasture; the place will throng with people. 13The One who breaks open the way will go up before them; they will break through the gate and go out. Their King will pass through before them, the Lord at their head.”

Rev 12:1-6 NIV A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”a And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Rev 12:13-17 NIV When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Are you a Catholic?

Are you a Muslim?

 

[Wormwood]

As I see it, the benefit/blessing of being an Israelite, according to the inspired author Paul is that they were entrusted with the very oracles of God (Romans 3:2). Paul says nothing about unique plans for salvation, the importance of temples, animal sacrifices or special privileges or promises under the first covenant that were the unique and ongoing possession of physical Israel after the institution of the new covenant in Christ's blood. I find such notions very disconcerting as they imply that there are promises and purposes of God that were NOT fulfilled in Christ. This goes directly against the clear teaching of the New Testament.

The problem with the term "replacement theology" is that it creates the false notion that Israel is being "replaced." This is not the case. Rather, in Christ, Gentiles are grafted in to faithful Israel. The new covenant makes it such that Gentiles have the ability to enter into relationship with God and become the offspring of Abraham through faith in Jesus. No one is being "replaced," rather Gentiles are being grafted in through faith. It is true that unbelieving Israelites were "cut off" but this is nothing new. Paul goes to great lengths to show that there have always been unbelieving Israelites and that "true Israel" have always coexisted with these unbelieving Israelites (which God often refers to as "not my people, Sodom, Edom, etc."). The identification of the church with God's ongoing plan of salvation for Israel and that the church is the continuation of true Israel could not be any more evident in Scripture. The NT authors regularly refer to the church in terms of true Israel.

• A people belonging to God/people of God (1 Peter 2:9-10)
• God's own possession (1 Peter 2:9)
• a holy nation (1 Peter 2:9)
• my people (Heb. 8:10)
• the Israel of God (Gal. 6:16)
• a holy priesthood (1 Peter 2:4)

Not only that, many many OT verses that speak of Israel are used by NT authors to refer to the church (see Isaiah 52:11; Eze. 20:34, 41; Jeremiah 31:31-34, etc.) God does not have separate, distinct plans for Jews vs. Gentiles. He does not show favoritism. Christ IS the plan and there are no distinctions between Gentiles who believe in the Messiah and Jews who believe in the Messiah. All are children of God and the covenant in the blood of Christ is THE covenant that fulfills all of God's plans for Israel, and also invites Gentiles to share in that plan.

To argue that this theology of fulfillment is unbiblical, heretical or a false doctrine is to argue that the church throughout history has been unbiblical and heretical for 1800 years. Dispensationalism is a relatively new theology that was constructed in the 1800's and is completely foreign to how the church has understood herself and the Scriptures for nearly two millennium. Erecting dividing walls between Jews and Gentiles and claims that the Old Covenant will be reinstituted and there are elements of God's promises Christ didn't fulfill is very dangerous and leads to all kinds of racism and misuse of the Scriptures to promote modern political agendas that are scary and frankly, unChristlike.

 

[James Forthwright]

Well, I wasn’t expecting much in the way of support in this potentially volatile thread. What a pleasant surprise! Two affirming posts. And one from a forum moderator no less. Thanks Wormwood and Phoneman777, your contributions are greatly appreciated.
I also share Wormwood’s distaste for the term "replacement theology" but once such labels are generally applied to certain doctrines they are often difficult to shake loose or redefine. I’m also in agreement with your assessment regarding most of the fanciful aspects of the rapture and dispensationalism..
The only minor point of disagreement is on the topic of God’s “favoritism”. Though He judges impartially without respect of persons, God is still the Sovereign Lord of all heaven and earth and as such it remains His sole prerogative to choose whom He will bless and those that are cursed. This extends even to the twin grandsons of Abraham. “Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated.” (Rom. 9:13) (Mal. 1:2-3)