Replacement Theology

[JimParker]

Would anyone care to debate on the subject of Replacement Theology?
That is, that the Church has superseded or replaced the Jews in the fulfillment of
scriptural prophecies.

I would argue in the affirmative.

They haven't been replaced. They're just "on hold."

And the Church has been ADDED TO Israel.

Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree,

Rom 11:25-29 ... , I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

 

[Keeth]

There is no Israel outside of Christ. Christ has been the leader and center if the Israel of God from the very beginning. Those who rejected Him and still do today were never the Israel of God and are not now. Jacob was given the name Israel when he was changed from the supplanter to the repentent sinner who would not let go of Christ until until He blessed. None outside of Christ have ever been the Israel of God.

Ge 32:24 ¶ And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob’s thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Christ has always been the Leader and Savior of Israel. None who are outside of Him are the Israel of God.

 

[StanJ]

There is no Israel outside of Christ. Christ has been the leader and center if the Israel of God from the very beginning. Those who rejected Him and still do today were never the Israel of God and are not now. Jacob was given the name Israel when he was changed from the supplanter to the repentent sinner who would not let go of Christ until until He blessed. None outside of Christ have ever been the Israel of God.

Ge 32:24 ¶ And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob’s thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Christ has always been the Leader and Savior of Israel. None who are outside of Him are the Israel of God.

Of course their is, look on ANY map.

Let's try not to get all mystical above this shall we. Jesus Christ is the savior of ALL mankind, but Israel has the promises of the OC that God will fulfill at the end of this age, during the tribulation.
Jacob wrestled with a manifestation of the Word, but Jesus IS the Word incarnate...not quite the same thing, but close.

 

[Keeth]

Of course their is, look on ANY map.

Let's try not to get all mystical above this shall we. Jesus Christ is the savior of ALL mankind, but Israel has the promises of the OC that God will fulfill at the end of this age, during the tribulation.
Jacob wrestled with a manifestation of the Word, but Jesus IS the Word incarnate...not quite the same thing, but close.

Yes He was and is the Word incarnate. So why don't you believe the words of testimoiny which He spoke? The kingdom of God was taken away from the non-believeing Jews and given to those who believed and would believe. The Literal nation of Isrel who still reject Christ as thier Messiah, are no longer the Israel of God. This disticntion is reserved by those who accepted their Messiah, and those who belevied thier testimony regarding the same, not those who rejected Him and do not beleive to this day.

Mt 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

The kingdom was given to those who accepted their Messiah, and those who accepted the gospel they preached by faith. Only those of faith can bring forth real fruit. No nation, religion, or denomination can produce real fruit of the Spirit. this comes only by faith in Christ alone.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Only those Jews who,” abide not still in unbelief” are graffed back into the tree. Israel is composed of believers only. All the first Christians, were Jews. They were the Jews who did not reject their Lord and Savior. The nation of God was never taken away from them, but only away from those Jews who rejected Christ.

The literal nation of Israel on earth today, is not the Israel of God, for it is filled with non believers. The title of Christian was applied to those who followed Christ, and became attached to all those who claimed to do so. However, salvation is of the Jews, Christ Himself coming to us through their lineage, according to the promise. True Christians, are really converted Jews. The remnant of Israel did not reject their Lord and Savior. It is not the children of the flesh that are counted as the seed of Abraham, but the children of the promise. That is to say, those who have accepted the promise by faith. What was the promise, but that the world should be saved through the seed of Abraham, which was Christ.

Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

It is those only who are in Christ, that are the seed of Abraham, the true Israel of God. This is a spiritual nation, not a literal one. It breaks down all barriers that exist in this world, created by the fall. All, of any nation, religion, race, or any other kind of divisions of this world, that accept Christ, are become the Israel of God. They are to leave the things of this world behind, to become citizens of the spiritual nation, religion, and race of God, spiritual Israel. That which is carnal, earthy, is passing away. That which is connected to God through Christ, is spiritual, and everlasting.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

There are no people of God apart from Christ. He is the seed, the vine, the way, the truth, the life, the rock, the stone, the Messiah, the Prince of peace, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the bread of life, the living water, the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world, the WORD OF GOD, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last, the first born of God, the Son of God, and the Son of man, the Angel of the Lord, the King of kings, and the Lord of lords. Christ is all in all. Those who are not in Him, must, and will be naught.

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: 25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

All Israel will be saved. This does not include though, those of any literal nation, including Israel. Rather, all those who have chosen, and continue to choose to be born again in Christ, the promised seed of Abraham. Through whom, according to the eternal purpose of God, the entire world was, and is to be blessed.

 

[StanJ]

Yes He was and is the Word incarnate. So why don't you believe the words of testimoiny which He spoke? The kingdom of God was taken away from the non-believeing Jews and given to those who believed and would believe. The Literal nation of Isrel who still reject Christ as thier Messiah, are no longer the Israel of God. This disticntion is reserved by those who accepted their Messiah, and those who belevied thier testimony regarding the same, not those who rejected Him and do not beleive to this day.

The kingdom was given to those who accepted their Messiah, and those who accepted the gospel they preached by faith. Only those of faith can bring forth real fruit. No nation, religion, or denomination can produce real fruit of the Spirit. this comes only by faith in Christ alone.

I do believe His words, but don't add thought to them as you do. Matt 21 is directed at the Pharisees, which is clear if you read v45. Jesus said WILL, not HAS.

Apparently you read the words eisegetically as all who promote false doctrine do.

Only those Jews who,” abide not still in unbelief” are grafted back into the tree. Israel is composed of believers only. All the first Christians, were Jews. They were the Jews who did not reject their Lord and Savior. The nation of God was never taken away from them, but only away from those Jews who rejected Christ.

The literal nation of Israel on earth today, is not the Israel of God, for it is filled with non believers. The title of Christian was applied to those who followed Christ, and became attached to all those who claimed to do so. However, salvation is of the Jews, Christ Himself coming to us through their lineage, according to the promise. True Christians, are really converted Jews. The remnant of Israel did not reject their Lord and Savior. It is not the children of the flesh that are counted as the seed of Abraham, but the children of the promise. That is to say, those who have accepted the promise by faith. What was the promise, but that the world should be saved through the seed of Abraham, which was Christ.

Yes, BACK is the operative word. Same vine and the original branches who did accept Jesus stay whereas the new or grafter in branches are those that accept Jesus as the savior of mankind. ANY Jew who comes to accept Jesus will be grafted BACK in. The vine never changes, only the branches, so it's not a new nation, which is NOT what Paul is referring to here, it is the new church under the new covenant. The church does NOT replace Israel as a nation.

The nation of Israel IS the nation of God. There is no other Israel. Salvation is OF the Jews, because Jesus was a Jew so He was OF the Jews. What you fail to recognize in your attempt to eisegete scripture is that Paul says in a few places that in God's eyes there is no JEW or GENTILE, MALE of FEMALE, SLAVE or FREE.
Obviously those distinctions still existed in real life, just not in the eyes of God.
Acts 4:12 says who brings salvation, and Paul sates in Gal 3:29 that "if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to the promise."

It is obvious that your opinions here do NOT line up with scripture.

It is those only who are in Christ, that are the seed of Abraham, the true Israel of God. This is a spiritual nation, not a literal one. It breaks down all barriers that exist in this world, created by the fall. All, of any nation, religion, race, or any other kind of divisions of this world, that accept Christ, are become the Israel of God. They are to leave the things of this world behind, to become citizens of the spiritual nation, religion, and race of God, spiritual Israel. That which is carnal, earthy, is passing away. That which is connected to God through Christ, is spiritual, and everlasting.


There are no people of God apart from Christ. He is the seed, the vine, the way, the truth, the life, the rock, the stone, the Messiah, the Prince of peace, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the bread of life, the living water, the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world, the WORD OF GOD, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last, the first born of God, the Son of God, and the Son of man, the Angel of the Lord, the King of kings, and the Lord of lords. Christ is all in all. Those who are not in Him, must, and will be naught.


All Israel will be saved. This does not include though, those of any literal nation, including Israel. Rather, all those who have chosen, and continue to choose to be born again in Christ, the promised seed of Abraham. Through whom, according to the eternal purpose of God, the entire world was, and is to be blessed.

The true descendants of Abraham are NOT Israel, they are the descendants of Abraham. Israel was the nation FROM Jacob. Not quite the same this despite your equivocation.

Yes that is correct, He is all of these things, but the NATION of Israel still exists and still qualifies for God's promise to save them all.

Rom 11:26
And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion; he will remove ungodliness from Jacob.

 

[Keeth]

I do believe His words, but don't add thought to them as you do. Matt 21 is directed at the Pharisees, which is clear if you read v45. Jesus said WILL, not HAS.

Apparently you read the words eisegetically as all who promote false doctrine do.

Accusations are a cheap argument. Are you saying that those who belevied and accepted the authority of those Pharisees and still do to this day, while rejecting the testimony of Christ, are not in the same boat as those Pharisees themselves? They rejected Christ as thier Messiah, and therefore the kingdom of God was taken away from them. Do you deny this? Do you teach that those who reject Christ as the Savior today, are in possesion of and part of the kingdom of God today? If so, then aren't all saved, and isn't all of humanity the representation of God's kingdom? This is in fact what some suggest.

 

[StanJ]

Accusations are a cheap argument. Are you saying that those who belevied and accepted the authority of those Pharisees and still do to this day, while rejecting the testimony of Christ, are not in the same boat as those Pharisees themselves? They rejected Christ as thier Messiah, and therefore the kingdom of God was taken away from them. Do you deny this? Do you teach that those who reject Christ as the Savior today, are in possesion of and part of the kingdom of God today? If so, then aren't all saved, and isn't all of humanity the representation of God's kingdom? This is in fact what some suggest.

Yes they are Keeth unless they are supported which in many cases you DON'T.
The point is WHO Jesus' words were directed at not how you apply them in a fallacious manner.
My response was pretty clear so what did you not get?
I don't teach, I "rightly divide" the word of God for those who don't or won't. I leave teaching up to the Holy Spirit.
Obviously, not ALL are saved...just look at their actions. I really don't care what some suggest, I just deal with those on this forum who misuse the Word of God for their OWN false teaching.

 

[Phoneman777]

They haven't been replaced. They're just "on hold."

And the Church has been ADDED TO Israel.

Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree,

Rom 11:25-29 ... , I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

Who is Israel? (Galatians 3:29 KJV) God's will is that "all be saved and all come to a knowledge of the truth". The "spirit of blindness" that God sent to Israel is the same consequence for failing to love the truth that Paul speaks of in 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 KJV. The only hope any literal Israelite has is to give up his affiliation with "Jerusalem which is now" and become a "true Israelite" citizen of "Jerusalem which is above" (Galatians 4:22-31 KJV)

 

[JimParker]

Who is Israel? (Galatians 3:29 KJV) God's will is that "all be saved and all come to a knowledge of the truth". The "spirit of blindness" that God sent to Israel is the same consequence for failing to love the truth that Paul speaks of in 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 KJV. The only hope any literal Israelite has is to give up his affiliation with "Jerusalem which is now" and become a "true Israelite" citizen of "Jerusalem which is above" (Galatians 4:22-31 KJV)

<< The only hope any literal Israelite has is to give up his affiliation with "Jerusalem which is now" and become a "true Israelite" citizen of "Jerusalem which is above" (Galatians 4:22-31 KJV)>>

I already addressed that.

Rom 11:25-29 ... , I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

 

[Keeth]

Yes they are Keeth unless they are supported which in many cases you DON'T.
The point is WHO Jesus' words were directed at not how you apply them in a fallacious manner.
My response was pretty clear so what did you not get?
I don't teach, I "rightly divide" the word of God for those who don't or won't. I leave teaching up to the Holy Spirit.
Obviously, not ALL are saved...just look at their actions. I really don't care what some suggest, I just deal with those on this forum who misuse the Word of God for their OWN false teaching.

Show them to be false by the scriptures. What kind of proof are your words to me? Could I not now just turn around and bring your same accusations back against you? So what if I did, my words mean nothing, just like yours apart from God's word. Jesus Christ came preaching the kingdom of God to all who would accept it. Those who rejected His message then and today, have no part in that kingdom.

Lu 13:22 And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 ¶ Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

The teachers and workers of iniquity have no part in the kingdom of God. That this includes the Jews themselves could not be any more evident, since Christ was addressing them in the above. He had just left from teaching in one of the synagoues and was heading towards Jerusalem.

Mt 8:5 ¶ And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, 6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. 7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him. 8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. 9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The above is again addressed to the Jews themselves concernng the future. The difference was faith. The centurion had faith in Christ, thus he and all others like him are and will be part of and in the kingdom of God. The Jews who did not and will not belevie are not and will not be a part of the kingdom of God. They may decieve themselves that they are, but they will be cast out in the end, and it will be seen that they never were.

Mt 9:35 ¶ And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people. 36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd. 37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; 38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
10:1 ¶ And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. 5 ¶ These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Jesus Christ came to establish God's kingdom, and see it throuigh to the end. Those who accept the gospel of the kingdom become and are citizens of the same. Those who reject it, including the Jews have no part in it. Before Christ they were part of the professed people of God's kingdom on this earth. Once Christ came to establish the same though, those who rejected HIm had the kingdom of God taken away from them, for they rejected the gospel of the kingdom which Christ came to establish.

Lu 4:43 And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent. 44 And he preached in the synagogues of Galilee.

Christ came to the Jews first, preaching the kingdom of God. The Jews who accepted are part of the kingdom of God, those who did not had the kingdom taken away from them. It has been the same ever since. There is no kingdom of God apart from Christ who is the King of kings. There are no people of God and there is no kingdom of God apart from Christ who is the King of the same.

 

[StanJ]

I've pretty much said and quoted all I need to here Keeth, and I'm not really willing to spend the time to rehash everything. Read the thread and if you have pertinent questions then post then as responses to my posts. I am not really motivated at all to argue with someone who can't stay on track.

 

[Keeth]

The true descendants of Abraham are NOT Israel, they are the descendants of Abraham. Israel was the nation FROM Jacob. Not quite the same this despite your equivocation.

Yes that is correct, He is all of these things, but the NATION of Israel still exists and still qualifies for God's promise to save them all.

Rom 11:26
And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion; he will remove ungodliness from Jacob.

Ac 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Was Peter lying when he told all of Israel the above? Have, or will all of Israel, even those who have deid already accept Christ and be saved in Him? If not, how do you reconcile the verse you shared, with the one I just gave you? Is one of them a lie, and the other is the truth? If so, which one?

 

[Phoneman777]

Ac 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Was Peter lying when he told all of Israel the above? Have, or will all of Israel, even those who have deid already accept Christ and be saved in Him? If not, how do you reconcile the verse you shared, with the one I just gave you? Is one of them a lie, and the other is the truth? If so, which one?

Where in all of Romans 11 do we find some plan that "God is going to miraculously remove Israel's blindness so that they as a nation can fulfill their prophetic destiny"? First of all, it plainly says that "through jealousy" those who rejected and murdered Christ and suffered blindness would gain their sight - not through "Divine cataract surgery" - so the statement "until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" is simply an elaboration of Paul's previous "jealousy" statement where any literal Israelites who will be saved will behold the blessings of God's true Israel, the spiritual descendants of Abraham which comprise the church, and be moved with desire to partake of that blessing just as the Prodigal Son was moved with desire to leave the cursed, filthy pig pen, which aptly describes the wretched existence of Israel for the past 2,000 years. After all, "The way of the transgressors is hard" and one atrocity after another has marked their existence as a people.

How can anyone conclude that "all Israel shall be saved" pertains to an entire nation of Jesus-hating, Jesus-murdering, Jesus-ridiculing people when Jesus is the only way, truth, and life? There is no other name given among men whereby we will be saved, and therefore "Israel" can refer to only the true descendants of Abraham, those who belong to Christ: it is every one of these "Israelites" which shall be saved.

 

[StanJ]

Ac 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Was Peter lying when he told all of Israel the above? Have, or will all of Israel, even those who have deid already accept Christ and be saved in Him? If not, how do you reconcile the verse you shared, with the one I just gave you? Is one of them a lie, and the other is the truth? If so, which one?

Nothing for me to reconcile Keeth. They are both true, despite you not being able to put them together.
Just as Abraham will be saved based on his faith in God's promises that was credited to him as righteousness, all who believed the same will be saved.

 

[Keeth]

Nothing for me to reconcile Keeth. They are both true, despite you not being able to put them together.
Just as Abraham will be saved based on his faith in God's promises that was credited to him as righteousness, all who believed the same will be saved.

I can put them together. They fit together perfectly according to what I belive. Israel is now a spiritual nation of beleivers only, not of the flesh any longer. All of this Israel will be saved by faith. I was asking you how you put them together if the Israel of God is still of the flesh, and filled with non beleivers. How do you explain or reconcile these seemingly contradicting scriptures if Israel of the new covenant is still Israel of the flesh filled with non beleivers?

 

[ATP]

Ez 36:16-38 NIV
Ez 37:12-14 NIV

 

[StanJ]

I can put them together. They fit together perfectly according to what I belive. Israel is now a spiritual nation of beleivers only, not of the flesh any longer. All of this Israel will be saved by faith. I was asking you how you put them together if the Israel of God is still of the flesh, and filled with non beleivers. How do you explain or reconcile these seemingly contradicting scriptures if Israel of the new covenant is still Israel of the flesh filled with non beleivers?

Your vernacular doesn't prove itself Keeth. Israel is a nation of the world and those that are part of the Kingdom of God are from ALL nations. Only Israel has been created and promised a future, unlike ANY other nation of earth, either from yesterday or today or the future.
Peter was NOT addressing ALL the people of Israel, he was addressing the leadership in Jerusalem. Which claimed to represent ALL Israelites, when in fact they did not. Many had already believed and many more would, but none of them lost their citizenship, only their membership in Judaism.

 

[Keeth]

Your vernacular doesn't prove itself Keeth. Israel is a nation of the world and those that are part of the Kingdom of God are from ALL nations. Only Israel has been created and promised a future, unlike ANY other nation of earth, either from yesterday or today or the future.
Peter was NOT addressing ALL the people of Israel, he was addressing the leadership in Jerusalem. Which claimed to represent ALL Israelites, when in fact they did not. Many had already believed and many more would, but none of them lost their citizenship, only their membership in Judaism.

I never said they lost their membership as citizens of the literal Israel of this world, I said they had the kingdom of God taken away from them. They are not part of the new covenant spiritual Israel of God, which as you correctly state, is comprised of citizens from every nation which beleive and have accepted the gospel of the kingdom. You are wrong about Peter not addressing all of them, he most certainly was, as the scriptures plainly state.

Ac 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Surely you can see that which I have emphasized.

 

[StanJ]

I never said they lost their membership as citizens of the literal Israel of this world, I said they had the kingdom of God taken away from them. They are not part of the new covenant spiritual Israel of God, which as you correctly state, is comprised of citizens from every nation which believe and have accepted the gospel of the kingdom. You are wrong about Peter not addressing all of them, he most certainly was, as the scriptures plainly state.

Surely you can see that which I have emphasized.

Can't help but see what you've emphasized, but maybe you should just read it IN context and not emphasize anything?

Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: “Rulers and elders of the people! If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a man who was lame and are being asked how he was healed, 1then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. Jesus is

“‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.’

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

Nowhere does Acts 4 convey that the kingdom of God was taken away from them. What it does convey is that there is a NAME for their savior, not just a nebulous YHWH. His NAME is now Jesus, but He is still God and still their savior. The NEW covenant does not depict a NEW kingdom of God, it conveys a new dispensation.

 

[justaname]

So far we have established that the mystery refers to ethnic Israel, that it promises salvation to ethnic Israel, and that this salvation is a future event that will become a reality when Jesus returns. In order to gain a full-orbed understanding of the μυστήριον, however, we need to investigate the words καὶ οὕτως more closely. Some scholars have understood these words to be temporal: Israel is hardened until the fullness of the Gentiles enters in and then all Israel shall be saved. The decisive objection against this view is that a temporal meaning of καὶ οὕτως cannot be sustained (1 Cor. 11:28; 14:25; 1 Thess. 4:17; Jeremias 1977: 198; Fitzmyer 1993c: 622). Others have suggested that οὕτως … κάθως (houtōs … kathōs, so … just as) is correlative (Müller 1964: 43; Stuhlmacher 1971: 560; Luz 1968: 294; Kümmel 1977: 207). Such a construction is possible but unlikely, for in the parallel texts (1 Cor. 11:28; 14:25; 1 Thess. 4:17) καὶ οὕτως denotes manner. The same conclusion probably obtains in this case as well. Thus Paul denotes the manner or way in which Israel would be saved, and in this context what is distinctive about the manner is the time frame in which Israel would be saved: all Israel is only saved after the fullness of the Gentiles enters in. The content of the mystery, then, is not merely that Israel would be saved in the future (that was quite evident in the OT). What is new and distinctive is the revelation that all Israel would be saved only after the full number of Gentiles had been inscribed into the people of God (see Cranfield 1979: 577–78; Dahl 1977: 152–53; Hübner 1984a: 118; Bockmuehl 1990: 173; Stuhlmacher 1994: 172). We need to recall again that Paul communicates this mystery to forestall Gentile pride, for the latter were tempted to believe that God had chosen them because they were superior to Jews. Instead, God has planned salvation history in such a way that he would receive the maximum glory, so that it would be evident to all that salvation is of the Lord.

[SIZE=12pt][1][/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Schreiner, T. R. (1998). Romans (Vol. 6, p. 613). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Concerning Romans 11[/SIZE]

​I believe some have not heeded the warning given by Paul, and have fallen into pride thinking the Church replaced Israel. In truth the predominately Gentile Church is not the root, rather only branches grafted in.