Resolving some confusion about Revelation

[Randy Kluth]

Resolving some confusion about Revelation.

For years I had trouble with some portions of Revelation, eg the half hour of silence in heaven. I asked myself, What does this mean? What does this portend?

But now I see that this was just the superstructure of the vision, and not future events being foretold. They were not symbolic of future history, but rather, the paraphernalia associated with giving the vision to John, so that John would be coached in the way he was to present it.

It's sort of like hearing a drum roll before an announcement. The drum roll is pure drama, but the important event is not the drum roll, but the thing it highlights.

For example, the half hour of silence in heaven is like a "drum roll"--paraphernalia associated with the props of the vision, rather than a prophecy itself. The drama in heaven shows the importance of the upcoming prophecies.

In the same way, lightning and thunder are the decor for numerous visions. They do not predict that with each event there will literally be lightning and thunder. Rather, they are the backdrop to the vision, to emphasize the dramatic nature of apocalyptic events.

And so it is with the book of Revelation. The order of visions, and some of the things John was taken through was purely the process of receiving the Revelation, and not representative of future events themselves. They were infrastructure to the giving of the Revelation, with proper mood, rather than being, like everything else, prophecies of the future.

So there were symbols of future prophecies, yes. But some of the backdrop was purely backdrop, and purely a stage with props to depict those prophecies--not the prophecies themselves. The sequence John went through was the sequence through which God showed him the vision, and not the sequence in which the visions would be fulfilled. I trust you will understand?

Maybe we can figure out what in the Revelation is purely backdrop material, and what is actually symbols of future events? Let me know what you think.

 

[Bobby Jo]

Resolving some confusion about Revelation.

For years I had trouble with some portions of Revelation, ...

... like trying to connive an explanation for why Rev. 12 says SEVEN Diadems, and Rev. 13 says TEN Diadems.


Gabriel’s message to Daniel is extremely relevant

Randy Kluth said in Post #163:

I did *not* twist the heads and the horns, confusing them with diadems. The 7 heads are 7 kings. The 10 horns are 10 kingdoms. The diadems indicate that these kingdoms have kings over them.

I'm not even saying I'm right. It's just that I'm not "twisting" anything. I'm just engaging in speculation. ...​

So for those who might be unfamiliar with the aspects, @Randy Kluth can't distinguish between the SEVEN vs. TEN Diadems. And if a person can't get the simple, we probably shouldn't trust him with the complex, -- or anything in between.

But maybe some people like prevarications ...
Bobby Jo

 

[Keraz]

The Seventh Seal:
Revelation 8:1 When the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about a half hour.

We are clearly told that the ‘about a half hour’, is in heaven. Time in heaven is not and cannot be the same as earthly time, heaven doesn’t rotate or orbit the sun. God is eternal, His ways are not our ways. Anyway, the Bible informs us twice that one day in heaven is like [as] 1000 years on earth. Psalm 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8 Genesis speaks of ‘6 days’ of creation, it seems more logical that they were actually 1000 year periods, or allegorically pointing to God’s 7000 year Plan for the earth.

We have a date for the completion of the 6000 year era of mankind’s rule, obtained from the careful addition of the Biblical kings reigning periods and the commencement of Jesus’ ministry in 29/30 AD. Luke 3:1 2

It had been assumed that the ‘half hour’ starts soon after the Sixth Seal and finishes at the commencement of the Trumpet and Bowl punishments of the Great Tribulation. That is: 3½ years before the Return. But the Sixth Seal commences the Wrath of God and the Lamb, Rev. 6:17, then we see it isn’t until the completion of the Great Tribulation, that the Wrath of God is finished. Revelation 15:1

The calculation of 1000 divided by 48 gives us a heavenly half-hour the same as about 20 earth years. But that is only the center of a range of years possible because it is "about" a half-hour.

Therefore if, as seems likely, if the Sixth Seal – the great and terrible Day of the Lord, happens very soon – then the Seventh Seal follows immediately afterwards. So that will be the period of ‘silence in heaven’ but of tumult and huge changes on earth!

A lot must happen during that time – the regeneration of the Land, many prophesies about that – the Lord will send rain. Then the gathering, and settling of His people, again many prophecies – houses rebuilt, land productive... The selection of the 144,000, The Gog Magog attack and 7 years clean up. The treaty with the Anti-Christ, the AoD in the new Temple and 3½ years of the Great Tribulation. Then the glorious Return in 2031.

It all fits and I see the Hand of God in it.

 

[Davy]

Resolving some confusion about Revelation.

For years I had trouble with some portions of Revelation, eg the half hour of silence in heaven. I asked myself, What does this mean? What does this portend?

But now I see that this was just the superstructure of the vision, and not future events being foretold. They were not symbolic of future history, but rather, the paraphernalia associated with giving the vision to John, so that John would be coached in the way he was to present it.

It's sort of like hearing a drum roll before an announcement. The drum roll is pure drama, but the important event is not the drum roll, but the thing it highlights.

For example, the half hour of silence in heaven is like a "drum roll"--paraphernalia associated with the props of the vision, rather than a prophecy itself. The drama in heaven shows the importance of the upcoming prophecies.

In the same way, lightning and thunder are the decor for numerous visions. They do not predict that with each event there will literally be lightning and thunder. Rather, they are the backdrop to the vision, to emphasize the dramatic nature of apocalyptic events.

And so it is with the book of Revelation. The order of visions, and some of the things John was taken through was purely the process of receiving the Revelation, and not representative of future events themselves. They were infrastructure to the giving of the Revelation, with proper mood, rather than being, like everything else, prophecies of the future.

So there were symbols of future prophecies, yes. But some of the backdrop was purely backdrop, and purely a stage with props to depict those prophecies--not the prophecies themselves. The sequence John went through was the sequence through which God showed him the vision, and not the sequence in which the visions would be fulfilled. I trust you will understand?

Maybe we can figure out what in the Revelation is purely backdrop material, and what is actually symbols of future events? Let me know what you think.

That's very true. And this is a problem many brethren have, not knowing the difference between the actual prophetic 'events' Christ gave John by vision vs. the seeming theatrics.

I strongly believe the props are designed to lead the unfaithful and curious away from understanding Christ's Revelation, including the order of the events, because not everything in the order as written happens in that sequence.

What reveals the proper order and meaning of the symbols is study throughout all... of God's written Word, chapter by chapter, line upon line. And then only Jesus can open up the Seals to our understanding, so we must ask Him. A working understanding in all of God's Word is essential, but I see many new believers who think they can immediately understand Revelation just after having believed on our Lord Jesus.

 

[marks]

If it isn't seen in the text, how do you know you've got it right?

 

[Timtofly]

The Seventh Seal:
Revelation 8:1 When the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about a half hour.

We are clearly told that the ‘about a half hour’, is in heaven. Time in heaven is not and cannot be the same as earthly time, heaven doesn’t rotate or orbit the sun. God is eternal, His ways are not our ways. Anyway, the Bible informs us twice that one day in heaven is like [as] 1000 years on earth. Psalm 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8 Genesis speaks of ‘6 days’ of creation, it seems more logical that they were actually 1000 year periods, or allegorically pointing to God’s 7000 year Plan for the earth.

We have a date for the completion of the 6000 year era of mankind’s rule, obtained from the careful addition of the Biblical kings reigning periods and the commencement of Jesus’ ministry in 29/30 AD. Luke 3:1 2

It had been assumed that the ‘half hour’ starts soon after the Sixth Seal and finishes at the commencement of the Trumpet and Bowl punishments of the Great Tribulation. That is: 3½ years before the Return. But the Sixth Seal commences the Wrath of God and the Lamb, Rev. 6:17, then we see it isn’t until the completion of the Great Tribulation, that the Wrath of God is finished. Revelation 15:1

The calculation of 1000 divided by 48 gives us a heavenly half-hour the same as about 20 earth years. But that is only the center of a range of years possible because it is "about" a half-hour.

Therefore if, as seems likely, if the Sixth Seal – the great and terrible Day of the Lord, happens very soon – then the Seventh Seal follows immediately afterwards. So that will be the period of ‘silence in heaven’ but of tumult and huge changes on earth!

A lot must happen during that time – the regeneration of the Land, many prophesies about that – the Lord will send rain. Then the gathering, and settling of His people, again many prophecies – houses rebuilt, land productive... The selection of the 144,000, The Gog Magog attack and 7 years clean up. The treaty with the Anti-Christ, the AoD in the new Temple and 3½ years of the Great Tribulation. Then the glorious Return in 2031.

It all fits and I see the Hand of God in it.

There is no sun to revolve around. Time in heaven is the same on earth.

The Lord's Day is talking about God as transcendent from creation. God the Father on the throne, and the Lamb, God the Son, have experienced the same 6000 years since Adam. But being omniscient and transcendent, God views time in days, while we view the same time as 1000 years. Creation was completed in 6 literal earth days. There was an 8 day week, when Yeshua defeated the Nations by destroying Jericho, and letting the Hebrews take command of the Promised Land.

Palm Sunday started the second 8 day week in which the Cross was God the Son providing the Atonement of God. This was the end of His people the Hebrews and the start of the church.

Now we are less than 3 years away from the last 8 day week known as the Second Coming celebration. It is the end of the church age, and also the end of Adam's 6000 year punishment of labor by the sweat of the brow.

If Satan gets 3.5 years of great tribulation it cuts Wednesday of the week in half. The week will resume after 3.5 years. The end is the moment the 2 witnesses are killed. The last 3.5 days are the time the 2 witnesses lay dead where their bodies fell.

Half an hour on heaven at this time is still just an half an hour, for all reality.

The GOG MAGOG battle is after 1000 years. The Sunday battle of Armageddon will be over in seconds. In fact it will only take a few hours to wake every one, and gather them to Israel. That is where all humanity will be brought any ways to either accept the mark, 666, or be beheaded. Jerusalem for 3.5 years will be the center of it all. What ever temple/tabernacle, will be under Satan's full control for 3.5 years. That is where Satan assembles an image in his likeness and allowed to give it life. What science has been trying to figure out for years with AI, Satan will finally be allowed by God to bring to pass. Satan will have his own Adamic "son" and prove this image is a Christ to resolve human issues. That is the point of Revelation 13. It will not do anything but waste 3.5 years. Years that should not happen at all, if the church did her job of turning all the souls on earth to repentance and salvation. The rapture is not an escape. It is the close of an opportunity. God says, your time is up. Either the church obeyed God’s will, or will wished they had done more.

The time left is just the harvest. It is not a long drawn out process. It is a time of judgments and tribulation. Mostly for Jacob's descendants. Some for Abraham's descendants not of Isaac or Jacob. And a time for the whole of Adam's Nations. All of Adam can be redeemed. Some will choose not to. But this tribulation is only for the living. It is not for all those who died in the last 5990 years. All humanity living right now will know they are one in Adam. The race issue will be settled. Humanity will only be presented with God on one side and Satan on the other.

 

[Bobby Jo]

...A working understanding in all of God's Word is essential, ...

... and until @Davy can resolve WHY Rev. 12 says SEVEN Diadems, but Rev. 13 says TEN Diadems, -- we can excuse anything that @Davy would assert.

If they can't get the SIMPLE, the shouldn't attempt the COMPLEX.
Bobby Jo

 

[Dave Watchman]

Resolving some confusion about Revelation.

For years I had trouble with some portions of Revelation, eg the half hour of silence in heaven. I asked myself, What does this mean? What does this portend?

But now I see that this was just the superstructure of the vision, and not future events being foretold. They were not symbolic of future history, but rather, the paraphernalia associated with giving the vision to John, so that John would be coached in the way he was to present it.

It's sort of like hearing a drum roll before an announcement. The drum roll is pure drama, but the important event is not the drum roll, but the thing it highlights.

For example, the half hour of silence in heaven is like a "drum roll"--paraphernalia associated with the props of the vision, rather than a prophecy itself. The drama in heaven shows the importance of the upcoming prophecies.

In the same way, lightning and thunder are the decor for numerous visions. They do not predict that with each event there will literally be lightning and thunder. Rather, they are the backdrop to the vision, to emphasize the dramatic nature of apocalyptic events.

And so it is with the book of Revelation. The order of visions, and some of the things John was taken through was purely the process of receiving the Revelation, and not representative of future events themselves. They were infrastructure to the giving of the Revelation, with proper mood, rather than being, like everything else, prophecies of the future.

So there were symbols of future prophecies, yes. But some of the backdrop was purely backdrop, and purely a stage with props to depict those prophecies--not the prophecies themselves. The sequence John went through was the sequence through which God showed him the vision, and not the sequence in which the visions would be fulfilled. I trust you will understand?

Maybe we can figure out what in the Revelation is purely backdrop material, and what is actually symbols of future events? Let me know what you think.

I think it's tough.

Especially now.

Because I think it's happening now.

It's more than a backdrop.

More than a drum roll.

Silence in heaven means the prophetic voice is silenced.

We go into a freeze frame.

Be silent before the Lord.

Be silent before the Day of the Lord.

This is the delay they talked about.

Until there will be no more delay.

Time in Heaven is the same as time on the Earth.

It took Gabriel 3.5 literal minutes to get from Heaven, to Daniel's location on the Earth.

But the half an hour, half a hora, could mean half a time, half a year, a short season, a watch in the night, or any designated space of time.

It could be the year of the Lord's favor.

Time in Bible Times
By Charles Francis Potter

The word "hour" comes from the Greek word "hora." The "Horae" were the three mythological goddesses of the seasons— spring, summer and winter. This was before autumn was recognized as a season. Their names were Eunomia, Dike and Eirene, meaning Good Order, Justice and Peace, guardians of the orderly succession of the processes of nature.

"Hora" therefore meant "season" in a very general sense, almost synonymous with "a time." It was simply a measurable lapse of time with a beginning and an end, but with no uniform length of duration. That ancient Greek meaning of the word persisted into New Testament times even after "hora" came to be used also to mean a division of the day. Consequently, when the translators came across the word "hora," they found it very difficult to determine what English word to use.

Several times they translated "hora" as "day" ; several other times they rendered it "season," and they were correct in so doing. But in some verses where "hora" should have been translated "moment" or "instant," they rendered it "hour."

Even in the many places in the New Testament where the word "hora" is used to indicate a period of time somewhat corresponding to our modern hour, it should be understood by the Bible reader that the New Testament hour varied greatly in length.

There were astronomers then, to be sure, who had carefully worked out the exact length of the day from their observation of the stars and the equinoxes, and had divided the day into 24 equal parts or hours, like the ones we use today. These they measured by a clever mechanical device which they called the clepsydra, literally the water-stealer, a primitive forerunner of the clock.

But the common people of New Testament times, in their homes and in business, knew nothing of the day of 24 equal hours. To them the day was the period between sunrise and sunset, and that was divided into 12 equal parts called hours. Of course, the hours were therefore much longer in summer than in winter. In mid-winter their hour was equal to only three-fourths of one of our hours and in midsummer was as long as our hour and a quarter. But in their leisurely method of living, they did not worry about such small matters.

© The Royal Astronomical Society of Canada • Provided by the NASA Astrophysics Data System1941JRASC..35..163P166 Charles Francis Potter​

Practically, too, Jesus' contemporaries did not even bother very much with separate hours. They used mostly the third, sixth and ninth hours, meaning mid-forenoon, noon and mid-afternoon. As a matter of fact, the first, second, fourth, fifth, eighth and 12th hours are never mentioned in the New Testament at all. The 11th hour is referred to twice, but in the same story; and the seventh and tenth hours are mentioned but once each. And in half the places where any hour is mentioned, it is prefaced by the word "about." "About the ninth hour" is a common phrase, and meant evidently "along some time in the afternoon."

The night was divided into watches. In Old Testament times there were three—the evening watch, the middle watch and the morning watch. That usage carried over into the New Testament, but the Roman four-watch night was also coming into use. There is an interesting example in Mark 13: 35, where all four watches are named, "Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning."​

1941JRASC..35..163P Page 163

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I think it's tough.

Especially now.

Because I think it's happening now.

It's more than a backdrop.

More than a drum roll.

Silence in heaven means the prophetic voice is silenced.

We go into a freeze frame.

Be silent before the Lord.

Be silent before the Day of the Lord.

This is the delay they talked about.

Until there will be no more delay.

Time in Heaven is the same as time on the Earth.

It took Gabriel 3.5 literal minutes to get from Heaven, to Daniel's location on the Earth.

But the half an hour, half a hora, could mean half a time, half a year, a short season, a watch in the night, or any designated space of time.

It could be the year of the Lord's favor.

Time in Bible Times
By Charles Francis Potter

The word "hour" comes from the Greek word "hora." The "Horae" were the three mythological goddesses of the seasons— spring, summer and winter. This was before autumn was recognized as a season. Their names were Eunomia, Dike and Eirene, meaning Good Order, Justice and Peace, guardians of the orderly succession of the processes of nature.

"Hora" therefore meant "season" in a very general sense, almost synonymous with "a time." It was simply a measurable lapse of time with a beginning and an end, but with no uniform length of duration. That ancient Greek meaning of the word persisted into New Testament times even after "hora" came to be used also to mean a division of the day. Consequently, when the translators came across the word "hora," they found it very difficult to determine what English word to use.

Several times they translated "hora" as "day" ; several other times they rendered it "season," and they were correct in so doing. But in some verses where "hora" should have been translated "moment" or "instant," they rendered it "hour."

Even in the many places in the New Testament where the word "hora" is used to indicate a period of time somewhat corresponding to our modern hour, it should be understood by the Bible reader that the New Testament hour varied greatly in length.

There were astronomers then, to be sure, who had carefully worked out the exact length of the day from their observation of the stars and the equinoxes, and had divided the day into 24 equal parts or hours, like the ones we use today. These they measured by a clever mechanical device which they called the clepsydra, literally the water-stealer, a primitive forerunner of the clock.

But the common people of New Testament times, in their homes and in business, knew nothing of the day of 24 equal hours. To them the day was the period between sunrise and sunset, and that was divided into 12 equal parts called hours. Of course, the hours were therefore much longer in summer than in winter. In mid-winter their hour was equal to only three-fourths of one of our hours and in midsummer was as long as our hour and a quarter. But in their leisurely method of living, they did not worry about such small matters.

© The Royal Astronomical Society of Canada • Provided by the NASA Astrophysics Data System1941JRASC..35..163P166 Charles Francis Potter​

Practically, too, Jesus' contemporaries did not even bother very much with separate hours. They used mostly the third, sixth and ninth hours, meaning mid-forenoon, noon and mid-afternoon. As a matter of fact, the first, second, fourth, fifth, eighth and 12th hours are never mentioned in the New Testament at all. The 11th hour is referred to twice, but in the same story; and the seventh and tenth hours are mentioned but once each. And in half the places where any hour is mentioned, it is prefaced by the word "about." "About the ninth hour" is a common phrase, and meant evidently "along some time in the afternoon."

The night was divided into watches. In Old Testament times there were three—the evening watch, the middle watch and the morning watch. That usage carried over into the New Testament, but the Roman four-watch night was also coming into use. There is an interesting example in Mark 13: 35, where all four watches are named, "Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning."​

1941JRASC..35..163P Page 163

Peaceful Sabbath.

I found that interesting. I do believe that God has to have a different sense of time than us, since the very items that determine time for us do not apply to Him. For example, we are creatures of the earth whose time is determined by the rotation of the earth and experience the intermittent appearance of the sun.

But God has no such experience, being everywhere at once, and being on every side of the planet. And so, God has a different sense of time even while He recognizes the times by which we experience them, in relation to our place on earth.

The silence in heaven certainly was John's experience, and not God's sense of time. John was seeing the Revelation. And yet, John is told this silence is "in heaven." And so, we have this odd comparison between God's sense of time and John's sense of time.

My answer to it is simple. In this particular case, half an hour was quite literally the time that John experienced while seeing the vision. But it did not refer to some prophecy to be fulfilled in the future. His experience of a half hour of silence in heaven was just paraphenalia, adding weight to the coming prophecies of events in the future. We are not to think of this half hour of silence as something to take place in the future, but only see the events to come as something particularly weighty.

If there is silence in heaven during the giving of this vision, then the events they portend must certainly be important, and perhaps cryptic. And if they are cryptic, it may be designed only for the Church, and not for anybody else to see until the time for them to take place.

 

[Dave Watchman]

I found that interesting. I do believe that God has to have a different sense of time than us, since the very items that determine time for us do not apply to Him.

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.​

If there is silence in heaven during the giving of this vision, then the events they portend must certainly be important, and perhaps cryptic. And if they are cryptic, is may be designed only for the Church, and not for anybody else to see until the time for them to take place.

This is as close as we come.

I think the silence was designed for the Elect, for God's People.

My views are different, so don't worry Randy.

I think that the silence in heaven was baked in the cake.

The delay was necessary.

The rapture is soon, but there is not a second trip.

We are waiting for our brothers and fellow servants to enter into the world.

Jesus will NOT lose any that were given to Him by the Father.

I still think that it's happening right now. For the sake of the elect. The Calvinists have this part covered somewhere in their Westminster Confession of Faith when they talk about the elect infantry, or the infantry of the elect.

The Devil has been able to push the timing of this further out into the future, working through the composite beast, by popularizing abortion around the world. He's doing a similar thing to what he was doing when Jesus was a baby, the slaughter of the innocents. Some of those little dudes were to be our brothers and fellow servants.

I think we are into all seven seals, but they are not what the prophecy expositors have always told us they would be. I think most, 2/3s, of Revelation has happened, and is happening now, like a tribulum of the Matrix. People are walking around like things are normal. but they're not.

The opening of the seventh, in the midst of the sixth, has put us into lock-down mode. Freeze frame mode. Suspended animation. However you want to describe it. Heaven has gone silent. The prophetic voice has gone silent, for about the space of half an hour. Half a "hora".

While we wait for our brothers and fellow servants to enter into the world. Jesus will not lose any that the Father gives Him. But this is one specification that only the Father knows, no man can know, not even the angels of heaven.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[Bobby Jo]

...

Poetry and science fiction is neither Scripture nor History.

Bobby Jo