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Ronald David Bruno

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Many views of Jesus' Second Coming are floating around out there. Which one is true?
Let's examine the events that coinside with His return.
I think one of the key signs is Matthew 24:14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come."
Wars and rumors of wars, pestilence and famine
all lead up to this moment. They are the prerequisite events, the "Beginning of Sorrows", mentioned also in Matthew 24.
In particular, the war in the Middle East is key. Ten nations attack Israel. The result is Jesus returns and destroys them. So this war must precede His return.
A great earthquake. Likey a worldwide quake preceeds and levels everything.
* Is the earthquake in Revelation 6:12 the same quake in Revelation 8:5, 11:13,19 &16:18? Are we just lookong at different vantages points on time? This could be so if the trumpets and bowls were released rapidly. There could be separate quakes, some regional, then on Rev.16:18, the biggest? Zechariah 14:2-4 describes this very same quake. Ezekiel 38:19 describes either a regional quake or the great quake, in His wrath.

"And I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became as black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place." Rev. 6:12-14
"Then the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder and sounds, and flashes of lightning and an earthquake." Rev. 8:5

"And at that time there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven." Rev. 11:13
"And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since mankind came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty. REV. 16:18


This war, likely nuclear, creates so much smoke in the sky that it blocks out the sun, moon and stars - (1/3 of the light according to Revelation 8:12 which is a result of Revelation 8:7, when 1/3 of the planet that is set on fire). Fire and hail raining down from heaven, could be symbolic for missiles or a volcanic eruption ( which there will be since the earth is split open in that area causing a fissure deep in the earth that reaches the Abyss as described in Revelation 9:1-2).

But the Pre-Tribbers claim, "Wait, all this happens after the Rapture ... there is the Rapture and then the Second Coming with seven years in between them ..." Hold your horses ... wait a minute, you can't say that, the horses have already been released.
Let's look at Revelation 7. Here we see a sealing of the 144k and a multitude in heaven that no one can number who just came OUT OF the Great Tribulation. That means they were in it, at least the beginning of it. This is the raptured Church. Revelation 7 is situated between the 6th and 7th Seals. However, it is referred to as a parenthetical citation, information given which is not part of the chronology of events. The sealing of the 144k Jews AND translation of the multitude must happen BEFORE any harm comes to the earth, land, sea or trees.
Look back at the previous chapter in the 6th Seal. How could any of these events not cause harm to the earth? Also with the 6th Seal brings great wind!
Let me submit that this sealing and arrival of the multitude in heaven happens amidst an interesting physical anomally experienced on the entire planet --- the wind stops blowing everywhere. It is a pause, a key signal the the trumpets are about to be blown and bowls released.
Now listen, we are shown what each trumpet and bowl represents but it does not mean they are not all released quickly.
The 7th Seal is opened and there is that silence i1an heaven for a half hour, a pause ----when the wind stops blowing. Let's reflect on that for a second. John has these visions of heaven of Revelation on one day, events of the entire 3 1/2 years plus visions of the Millennial Kingdom, more rebellion after, the Great White Throne Judgment and the New Jerusalem. So how much time on earth is equivalent to a half hour in heaven? Could be a week? Who knows, but it is a pause when the wind stops blowing. If only an alarm could go off when the Weather Channel announces no wind on the entire planet?

My view is that the Trumpets are blown rapidly and Seals released rapidly like an explosion of fireworks and all events overlap and are accumulative. In this way, the Rapture (the multitude) happens before these major catastrophies are realized.
* The multitude in Rev. 7:9 is the same event ( different vantage of the last trumpet, #7, in Revelation11:15. Let's look at what happens at this 7th Trumpet.

1. "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ;
2. He begins His reign forever and ever.”
3. Worship and thanks
4. Wrath comes /Armeggedon/ deadly harvest
5. The dead are judged
6. Rewards are given to the Church
7. The Temple of God is opened
8. Mystery of God is revealed and the mystery of what we will be like as well.
9. Flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm.

I am comfortable with this view but I realize many will not accept it. I have looked at Revelation like a transparent three dimensional sphere of events within and on the surface. So when you turn the sphere, you just see different vantage points of events that overlap. But most of them are happening simultaneously. We'll see!
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Many views of Jesus' Second Coming are floating around out there. Which one is true?
Let's examine the events that coinside with His return.
I think one of the key signs is Matthew 24:14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come."
Wars and rumors of wars, pestilence and famine
all lead up to this moment. They are the prerequisite events, the "Beginning of Sorrows", mentioned also in Matthew 24.
In particular, the war in the Middle East is key. Ten nations attack Israel. The result is Jesus returns and destroys them. So this war must precede His return.
A great earthquake. Likey a worldwide quake preceeds and levels everything. * Is the earthquake in Revelation 6:12 the same quake in Revelation 8:5, 11:13,19 &16:18? Are we just lookong at different vantages points on time?
Yes, those passages are all referring to the same thing. It's a mistake to think that the book is chronological from beginning to end as many people do. There are several parallels within the book showing the same time periods and events from different angles.

This could be so if the trumpets and bowls were released at the same time. They could separate quakes, some regional, then on Rev.16:18, the biggest? Zechariah 14:2-4 describes this very same quake. Ezekiel 38:19 describes either a regional quake or the great quake, in His wrath.

"And I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became as black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place." Rev. 6:12-14
"Then the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder and sounds, and flashes of lightning and an earthquake." Rev. 8:5

"And at that time there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven." Rev. 11:13
"And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since mankind came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty. REV. 16:18


This war, likely nuclear, creates so much smoke in the sky that it blocks out the sun, moon and stars - (1/3 of the light according to Revelation 8:12 which is a result of Revelation 8:7, when 1/3 of the planet that is set on fire). Fire and hail raining down from heaven, could be symbolic for missiles or a volcanic eruption ( which there will be since the earth is split open in that area, a fissure deep in the earth that reaches the Abyss as described in Revelation 9:1-2).
So, you say the fire and hail could be symbolic, but the great earthquake has to be taken literally? Where is the consistency in your view? Look at Rev 6:12-14 again. It talks about stars falling to the earth. Do you understand that if that was literal it would result in the complete annihilation of the earth? So, it's clearly not meant to be taken literally. None of it is. If you disagree, then how do you pick and choose which parts of that passage are literal and which are symbolic?

And then you seem to think that the Abyss is located somewhere "deep in the earth"? It describes locusts come out of there who have the angel of the Abyss (Abaddon/Apollyon) as their king. Do you think it's talking about literal locusts? Literal locusts with an angel as their king? Or do you recognize that the locusts are symbolic representations of fallen angels? Do you think fallen angels are dwelling "deep in the earth"?

I'm saying these things to try to get you to think. Ask yourself why you are not consistent with how you are interpreting some things literally and some symbolically even with the same passage. How does that make sense? Is Revelation 6:12-14 talking about a literal earthquake, but symbolic stars falling to the earth? Why would John mix literal and symbolic text like that? To confuse people? Or is it either all literal or all symbolic, which would make far more sense and would be consistent? Just trying to give you something to think about.

But the Pre-Tribbers claim, "Wait, all this happens after the Rapture ... there is the Rapture and then the Second Coming with seven years in between them ..." Hold your horses ... wait a minute, I can't say that, the horses have already been released.
Let's look at Revelation 7. Here we see a sealong of the 144k and a multitude in heaven that no one can number who just came OUT OF the Great Tribulation.
I definitely don't intend to defend pre-trib at all since I completely disagree with it, but this isn't the way to refute pre-trib. There are many other ways to do so besides this. It says they come out of great tribulation, not THE great tribulation. The English word "the" was added by some English Bible translators (and not added by others), but the Greek equivalent is not there. Believers have been coming out of great tribulation for a long time already.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
 

Behold

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Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

The born again are already "seated in heavenly places in Christ".

The born again, are already "translated from Darkness ...to Light"...... This is : "Jesus the Light of the world, and the Children of the Light, who are the born again".
That's already happened.

Being "in Christ" has already happened.
Becoming "the temple of the Holy Spirit" has already happened, if the person is BORN........Again.
The born again are already become "ONE with God".
 
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Truth7t7

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Many views of Jesus' Second Coming are floating around out there. Which one is true?
Let's examine the events that coinside with His return.
I think one of the key signs is Matthew 24:14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come."
Wars and rumors of wars, pestilence and famine
all lead up to this moment. They are the prerequisite events, the "Beginning of Sorrows", mentioned also in Matthew 24.
In particular, the war in the Middle East is key. Ten nations attack Israel. The result is Jesus returns and destroys them. So this war must precede His return.
A great earthquake. Likey a worldwide quake preceeds and levels everything. * Is the earthquake in Revelation 6:12 the same quake in Revelation 8:5, 11:13,19 &16:18? Are we just lookong at different vantages points on time? This could be so if the trumpets and bowls were released at the same time. They could separate quakes, some regional, then on Rev.16:18, the biggest? Zechariah 14:2-4 describes this very same quake. Ezekiel 38:19 describes either a regional quake or the great quake, in His wrath.

"And I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became as black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place." Rev. 6:12-14
"Then the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder and sounds, and flashes of lightning and an earthquake." Rev. 8:5

"And at that time there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven." Rev. 11:13
"And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since mankind came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty. REV. 16:18


This war, likely nuclear, creates so much smoke in the sky that it blocks out the sun, moon and stars - (1/3 of the light according to Revelation 8:12 which is a result of Revelation 8:7, when 1/3 of the planet that is set on fire). Fire and hail raining down from heaven, could be symbolic for missiles or a volcanic eruption ( which there will be since the earth is split open in that area, a fissure deep in the earth that reaches the Abyss as described in Revelation 9:1-2).

But the Pre-Tribbers claim, "Wait, all this happens after the Rapture ... there is the Rapture and then the Second Coming with seven years in between them ..." Hold your horses ... wait a minute, I can't say that, the horses have already been released.
Let's look at Revelation 7. Here we see a sealong of the 144k and a multitude in heaven that no one can number who just came OUT OF the Great Tribulation. That means they were in it, at least the beginning of it. This is the raptured Church. Revelation 7 is situated between the 6th and 7th Seals. However, it is referred to as a parenthetical citation, information given which is not part of the chronology of events. The sealing of the 144k Jews AND translation of the multitude must happen BEFORE any harm comes to the earth, land, sea or trees.
Look back at the previous chapter in the 6th Seal. How could any of these events not cause harm to the earth? Also with the 6th Seal brings great wind!
Let me submit that this sealing and arruval of the multitude in heaven happens amidst an interesting physical anomally experienced in the entire planet --- the wind stops blowing everywhere. It is a pause, a key signal the the trumpet are about to be blown and bowls released.
Now listen, we are shown what each trumpet and bowl represents but it does not mean they are not all released quickly.
The 7th Seal is opened and there is that silence on heaven for a half hour, a pause ----when the wind stops blowing. Let's reflect on that for a second. John has these visions of heaven of Revelation on one day, events of the entire 3 1/2 years plus visions of the Millennial Kingdom, more rebellion after, the Great White Throne Judgment and the New Jerusalem. So how much time on earth is equivalent to a half hour in heaven? Could be a week? Who knows, but it is a pause when the wind stops blowing. If only an alarm could go off when the Weather Channel announces no wind on the entire planet?

My view is that the Trumpets blow rapidly and Seals released rapidly like an explosion of fireworks and all events overlap and are accumulative. In this way, the Rapture (the multitude) is happens before these major catastrophies are realized. The multitude in Rev. 7:9 is the same event ( different vantage of the last trumpet, #7, in Revelation11:15. Let's look at what happens at this 7th Trumpet.

1. "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ;
2. He begins His reign forever and ever.”
3. Worship and thanks
4. Wrath comes /Armeggedon/ deadly harvest
5. The dead are judged
6. Rewards are given to the Church
7. The Temple of God is opened
8. Mystery of God is revealed and the mystery of what we will be like as well.
9. Flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm.

I am comfortable with this view but I realize many will not accept it. I have looked at Revelation like a transparent three dimensional sphere of events within and on the surface. So when you turn the sphere, you just see different vantage points of events that overlap. But most of them are happening simultaneously. We'll see!

You forgot the most important part Ron, the man of sin must be revealed to the world, as the false prophet calls fire from heaven before The Beast in deceiving the world

these are key indicators on the beginning of the 42 month tribulation, and Jesus in the clouds isn't far behind

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And
he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;
saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
 
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ScottA

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Many views of Jesus' Second Coming are floating around out there. Which one is true?
Let's examine the events that coinside with His return.
I think one of the key signs is Matthew 24:14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come."
Wars and rumors of wars, pestilence and famine
all lead up to this moment. They are the prerequisite events, the "Beginning of Sorrows", mentioned also in Matthew 24.
In particular, the war in the Middle East is key. Ten nations attack Israel. The result is Jesus returns and destroys them. So this war must precede His return.
A great earthquake. Likey a worldwide quake preceeds and levels everything. * Is the earthquake in Revelation 6:12 the same quake in Revelation 8:5, 11:13,19 &16:18? Are we just lookong at different vantages points on time? This could be so if the trumpets and bowls were released at the same time. They could separate quakes, some regional, then on Rev.16:18, the biggest? Zechariah 14:2-4 describes this very same quake. Ezekiel 38:19 describes either a regional quake or the great quake, in His wrath.

"And I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became as black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place." Rev. 6:12-14
"Then the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder and sounds, and flashes of lightning and an earthquake." Rev. 8:5

"And at that time there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven." Rev. 11:13
"And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since mankind came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty. REV. 16:18


This war, likely nuclear, creates so much smoke in the sky that it blocks out the sun, moon and stars - (1/3 of the light according to Revelation 8:12 which is a result of Revelation 8:7, when 1/3 of the planet that is set on fire). Fire and hail raining down from heaven, could be symbolic for missiles or a volcanic eruption ( which there will be since the earth is split open in that area, a fissure deep in the earth that reaches the Abyss as described in Revelation 9:1-2).

But the Pre-Tribbers claim, "Wait, all this happens after the Rapture ... there is the Rapture and then the Second Coming with seven years in between them ..." Hold your horses ... wait a minute, I can't say that, the horses have already been released.
Let's look at Revelation 7. Here we see a sealong of the 144k and a multitude in heaven that no one can number who just came OUT OF the Great Tribulation. That means they were in it, at least the beginning of it. This is the raptured Church. Revelation 7 is situated between the 6th and 7th Seals. However, it is referred to as a parenthetical citation, information given which is not part of the chronology of events. The sealing of the 144k Jews AND translation of the multitude must happen BEFORE any harm comes to the earth, land, sea or trees.
Look back at the previous chapter in the 6th Seal. How could any of these events not cause harm to the earth? Also with the 6th Seal brings great wind!
Let me submit that this sealing and arruval of the multitude in heaven happens amidst an interesting physical anomally experienced in the entire planet --- the wind stops blowing everywhere. It is a pause, a key signal the the trumpet are about to be blown and bowls released.
Now listen, we are shown what each trumpet and bowl represents but it does not mean they are not all released quickly.
The 7th Seal is opened and there is that silence on heaven for a half hour, a pause ----when the wind stops blowing. Let's reflect on that for a second. John has these visions of heaven of Revelation on one day, events of the entire 3 1/2 years plus visions of the Millennial Kingdom, more rebellion after, the Great White Throne Judgment and the New Jerusalem. So how much time on earth is equivalent to a half hour in heaven? Could be a week? Who knows, but it is a pause when the wind stops blowing. If only an alarm could go off when the Weather Channel announces no wind on the entire planet?

My view is that the Trumpets blow rapidly and Seals released rapidly like an explosion of fireworks and all events overlap and are accumulative. In this way, the Rapture (the multitude) is happens before these major catastrophies are realized. The multitude in Rev. 7:9 is the same event ( different vantage of the last trumpet, #7, in Revelation11:15. Let's look at what happens at this 7th Trumpet.

1. "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ;
2. He begins His reign forever and ever.”
3. Worship and thanks
4. Wrath comes /Armeggedon/ deadly harvest
5. The dead are judged
6. Rewards are given to the Church
7. The Temple of God is opened
8. Mystery of God is revealed and the mystery of what we will be like as well.
9. Flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm.

I am comfortable with this view but I realize many will not accept it. I have looked at Revelation like a transparent three dimensional sphere of events within and on the surface. So when you turn the sphere, you just see different vantage points of events that overlap. But most of them are happening simultaneously. We'll see!
That is a good and perhaps popular observation. However, what is missing in most people's perspective (or conversely added) is that it is from the perspective of times, while what is of God actually is not.

So yes there is an overlap, yes they are simultaneous -- but that is just the tip of the iceberg, just a glimpse, as in a mirror dimly. The fact is, these things are only eluded to and revealed "here a little, there a little" -- for a Godly purpose. What purpose? That everyone involved would have their day in the sun to consider what is good and what is evil, "but each one in his own order." And that which has only been eluded to is not what is seen in this world and according to its times, but what is unseen of God properly stated not unlike the slaying of Christ as "before the foundation of the world" meaning, not even of this world. Thus, in the end, the whole truth of God will not include what is of this world, but only that which is not-- even those many things that seemingly occurred in the times of this world but did not. Not actually. Which is to say, that what is actually true with God, though it was revealed in the times of this world, is not of this world. Is this not as much as written? Indeed, it is...and this is God's perspective of which many religious doctrines do not align, for they are based in times and the ways of men and this world.

In God's reality all that appears to occur in times, occurs rather "in the twinkling of an eye." His.

So -- "When will Jesus return?" Paul summarized it best, saying, "but each one in his own order." In which case, all the above occurs in that very moment-- unseen ("not by observation") in the world, but in heavenly places; which by God's timing is, as you say, "simultaneously", even though from the worlds perspective according to times and from this side of the equation, it would appear to be "each one in his own order."
 
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Truth7t7

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That is a good and perhaps popular observation. However, what is missing in most people's perspective (or conversely added) is that it is from the perspective of times, while what is of God actually is not.
More Metaphysical Mystical Gobbly Goop found no place in scripture
 

Jay Ross

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A great earthquake. Likey a worldwide quake preceeds and levels everything. * Is the earthquake in Revelation 6:12 the same quake in Revelation 8:5, 11:13,19 &16:18? Are we just lookong at different vantages points on time? This could be so if the trumpets and bowls were released at the same time. They could separate quakes, some regional, then on Rev.16:18, the biggest? Zechariah 14:2-4 describes this very same quake. Ezekiel 38:19 describes either a regional quake or the great quake, in His wrath.

What has been translated as "earthquake," in the New Testament, should have been translated as "turmoil," in all of the passages you have referenced. All of the passages referenced make more sense if "seismos" had been translated as "turmoil."

The two periods of great turmoil in the Seventh Bowl Judgement is speaking of WW1 and WW2 when there was great turmoil in the earth and the skys where the war was being raged did turn black and the moon did turn to a red colour. The prophecy witnesses in the Seventh Bowl Judgement confirms when this bowl judgement took place. The Seventh Bowl judgement occurred during the 20th century. There were no earthquakes of such significance that would have put them into the "Great" category.

In both Ezekiel and Zechariah the passages also refer to a time of "great turmoil" in the lives of the Israelite people during battle. The references to "mountains" is actually a metaphor for "religions" among the peoples of the earth.

Both Ezekiel and Zechariah are speaking of the little while period that occurs after the Bottomless Pit is unlocked and just before the Great White Throne Room Judgement.

When is the Second Advent of Christ? It is my view that it is still over 1,000 years into our future and will probably be around another 1,050 or so years hence.

Should we be focused on when Jesus will return or on what He has instructed us to be doing as His Saints during the next 1,000 or so years. For me, I am focusing on worshipping God and His Son as I become a blessing to all of the people who I rub shoulders with in my daily walk with Him.

The next major event that will occur in the next 20-25 years from now is the judgement of the Gentile kings of the earth who are presently involved in the trampling of God's Sanctuary and His Earthly Hosts. This time of judgement will be of the heavenly hosts in heaven and the kings of the earth on the earth and both will be gathered together and imprisoned for many days to await the time of their punishment.

In Ezekiel 34:25-31, the prophet tells us that the heavenly hosts, who are the beasts of Daniel 7:1-12, will cease to be on the face of the earth and that Israel will be able to live in peace free from their oppression through the use of the Gentile Nations of the earth doing their will.

Will Christ be involved in this activity in our near future? He certainly will be if we accept Luke 14:31-32 is describing the Armageddon judgement of the kings of the earth when He will be judging them for their 2,300 years of trampling God's Sanctuary and His earthly hosts.

If we are out in just one little detail of the events of the end times, then we are out with respect to the whole picture of the End Times.

Shalom
 

Truth7t7

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So -- "When will Jesus return?" Paul summarized it best, saying, "but each one in his own order." In which case, all the above occurs in that very moment-- unseen
Your Claim Of "Unseen" Is "False"!

Literal human eyes upon this earth will be witnesses of the Lord's heavenly return

Matthew 24:30KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 

Truth7t7

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What has been translated as "earthquake," in the New Testament, should have been translated as "turmoil," in all of the passages you have referenced. All of the passages referenced make more sense if "seismos" had been translated as "turmoil."
Your a Greek Scholar and Translator now?

Where did you obtain your PHD in the Greek, Cambridge, Oxford, Yale, Harvard?
 

ScottA

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Your Claim Of "Unseen" Is "False"!

Literal human eyes upon this earth will be witnesses of the Lord's heavenly return

Matthew 24:30KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

You have believed a lie--the teachings of men. It is written "The kingdom of God does not come with observation."

What you are referring to occurs rather "in the clouds of heaven." (You don't even see and understand what you have quoted).
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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The born again are already "seated in heavenly places in Christ".

The born again, are already "translated from Darkness ...to Light"...... This is : "Jesus the Light of the world, and the Children of the Light, who are the born again".
That's already happened.

Being "in Christ" has already happened.
Becoming "the temple of the Holy Spirit" has already happened, if the person is BORN........Again.
The born again are already become "ONE with God".
I agree. Did I say something to give the impression that I didn't believe these things?
 

Ronald David Bruno

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And then you seem to think that the Abyss is located somewhere "deep in the earth"? It describes locusts come out of there who have the angel of the Abyss (Abaddon/Apollyon) as their king. Do you think it's talking about literal locusts? Literal locusts with an angel as their king? Or do you recognize that the locusts are symbolic representations of fallen angels

The Abyss/Bottomless Pit is inside and part of the earth. It is the lowest part of Hades where fallen angels were cast, Tartarus.
It is well known that the earth's crust contains caverns, water and molten lava. We can assume that there are deeper caverns and a bottomless pit deep beneath the crust of the earth. When pressure builds up, fire and brimstone are thrust to the surface out of volcanoes. The Bible states that fire will come to the surface and set the foundations of the mountains ablaze (Deut. 32:22). Now the area that Jesus cast the demons into the pigs, was the area that they asked, "Do not send us into the Abyss". They were sent off a cliff. Historically, this area of the wilderness was said to be where demons dwell beneath. Satan tempted Jesus in this area. The Dead Sea is also called "The Devils Sea". The area east of the Jerusalem, stretching from Syria to Mozambique is called the Great Rift Valley, containing thirty volcanoes, some active and some dormant. In the Jordan Valley there has been extensive volcanic activity up to about 3700 years ago. Evidence of cone-shaped craters and/or volcanic lava sheets exist all throughout the area of Bashan, the Golan Heights, the Seas of Galilee, the Dead Sea and south beyond the re Dea both on the land surface and deep beneath the waters. Many thermal hot springs break out near these fault lines today. Volcanic activity likely swallowed Sodom and Gomorah, near the northeast of the Dead Sea. So yes the entrance into the Abyss will be opened up by this great quake/volcanic eruption re-ignited and cause a fissure. The Bible states that the mountain Jesus comes to stand on had been split.

. It talks about stars falling to the earth. Do you understand that if that was literal it would result in the complete annihilation of the earth?
First of all, "take everything that is said at its literal, ordinary, face value meaning unless the words used, or the context, clearly indicate that you are meant to do otherwise."
So obviously these are not stars. If these prophets saw a missile or an asteroid, they might describe it as a star falling.
Ask yourself why you are not consistent with how you are interpreting some things literally and some symbolically even with the same passage.
The face value of a literal "star" falling to earth requires us to seek a different meaning, doesn't it? An earthquake is common, no need to seek a different meaning.
Why would John mix literal and symbolic text like that? To confuse people? Or is it either all literal or all symbolic, which would make far more sense and would be consistent?
I am not the one confused. I know a Dragon with seven heads and ten horns is not an actual creature. I also know that fire is fire and a quake is a quake, blood is blood, death is death, pestilence, famines and so on. It's not really difficult to distinguish literal from figurative language.
It says they come out of great tribulation, not THE great tribulation.
Great tribulation, like no other time can be accepted as THE GREAT TRIBULATION for most of us.
Believers have been coming out of great tribulation for a long time already.
Selectively tribulations throughout history that have affected regions, countries even just a few people in the world were great for them. Being burned alive, being crucified, eaten by a wild animal is a great tribulation for sure. But the whole planet suffers this GT.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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You forgot the most important part Ron, the man of sin must be revealed to the world, as the false prophet calls fire from heaven before The Beast in deceiving the world
Yes, but ya'll know that. I just focused on the other areas that typically people do not bring up.
 

Jay Ross

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You are a Greek Scholar and Translator now?

Where did you obtain your PHD in the Greek, Cambridge, Oxford, Yale, Harvard?

A false argument to say the least. Attacking the person rather than the content of their post.

Is that all you can do? Please present your rebuttal and arguments against what I had posted so that if correction on my part is needed, then I will understand what that correction should be.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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However, what is missing in most people's perspective (or conversely added) is that it is from the perspective of times, while what is of God actually is not.
"What is of God is actually not" of God? A contadiction. He created things as they are and told us about things to come. You always sound like everything is an illusion, we are in a twilight zone of something.
"in the twinkling of an eye."
This is in our time. We will be changed in less than a second. A scientist said a twinkling of an eye is like 1/20 of a second.
"When will Jesus return?" Paul summarized it best, saying, "but each one in his own order.
You confuse the Great Tribulation, a period of 3 1/2 years, when over half the population die and many things occur, with and individual's death. Anyone who has died in Christ has died in his own order, no argument there! But the Resurrection of billions at once will not occur separately, but as a massive group.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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The Abyss/Bottomless Pit is inside and part of the earth. It is the lowest part of Hades where fallen angels were cast, Tartarus.
Where are you getting this information from?

It is well known that the earth's crust contains caverns, water and molten lava. We can assume that there are deeper caverns and a bottomless pit deep beneath the crust of the earth. When pressure builds up, fire and brimstone are thrust to the surface out of volcanoes. The Bible states that fire will come to the surface and set the foundations of the mountains ablaze (Deut. 32:22). Now the area that Jesus cast the demons into the pigs, was the area that they asked, "Do not send us into the Abyss". They were sent off a cliff.
So, you're trying to tell me that the cliff led all the way down to the center of the earth? Are you wanting me to take you seriously here or not? Because I'm finding that to be difficult at this point. We're talking about spirit beings here. Why would spirit beings dwell in the center of the earth somewhere? That makes no sense.

Historically, this area of the wilderness was said to be where demons dwell beneath.
Said by whom? Give me some scripture to back up your claims. Do you have any?

Satan tempted Jesus in this area. The Dead Sea is also called "The Devils Sea".
By whom? None of this means anything. Give me scripture if you want me to take you seriously about this.

The area east of the Jerusalem, stretching from Syria to Mozambique is called the Great Rift Valley, containing thirty volcanoes, some active and some dormant. In the Jordan Valley there has been extensive volcanic activity up to about 3700 years ago. Evidence of cone-shaped craters and/or volcanic lava sheets exist all throughout the area of Bashan, the Golan Heights, the Seas of Galilee, the Dead Sea and south beyond the re Dea both on the land surface and deep beneath the waters. Many thermal hot springs break out near these fault lines today. Volcanic activity likely swallowed Sodom and Gomorah, near the northeast of the Dead Sea. So yes the entrance into the Abyss will be opened up by this great quake/volcanic eruption re-ignited and cause a fissure. The Bible states that the mountain Jesus comes to stand on had been split.


First of all, "take everything that is said at its literal, ordinary, face value meaning unless the words used, or the context, clearly indicate that you are meant to do otherwise."
I believe that is a ridiculous approach to interpreting scripture. It's certainly not one that Paul promoted. He taught that scripture must be spiritually discerned. It's foolish to make any assumptions about any given verse or passage of scripture. Each verse and passage must be spiritually discerned according to what type of text is being used in any given verse or passage.

1 Corinthians 2:12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

If what you said here was true, then why would spiritual discernment through the Holy Spirit even be required? You take an approach to interpreting scirpture that is no different than what one would take to read a news article that is just reporting the facts in a chronological, straightforward way. But, we know that scripture is not always chronological and straightforward. So, what you said here is a terrible approach to interpreting scripture.

So obviously these are not stars. If these prophets saw a missile or an asteroid, they might describe it as a star falling.
Why do they have to even be something that would look like a star falling? You clearly don't understand how symbolism works. In the following verse from the book of Revelation, stars represent angels (or messengers).

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

Do angels (or messengers) resemble literal stars falling from the sky? No, of course not. So, the symbols are not required to resemble what they symbolize.

Another example would be the beast with seven heads and ten horns. Does what that symbolically represents in reality resemble a literal beast with seven literal heads and ten literal horns? Of course not. So, why do symbolic stars falling to the earth have to resemble actual stars falling? They don't.

The face value of a literal "star" falling to earth requires us to seek a different meaning, doesn't it? An earthquake is common, no need to seek a different meaning.
I don't buy this line of reasoning at all. You think it makes sense that John was constantly going back and forth in that passage between literal things and symbolic things. That does not make any sense at all. We have other scripture which tells us how things will happen in a literal sense when the final wrath of the Lamb comes down and that is described in passages like 2 Peter 3:10-12. The purpose of the book of Revelation isn't to tell us how things will happen literally. There is plenty of other scripture which talks about that.

I am not the one confuse. I know a Dragon with seven heads and ten horns is not an actual creature. I also know that fire is fire and a quake is a quake, blood is blood, death is death, pestilence, famines and so on. It's not really difficult to distinguish literal from figurative language.
It appears to me that it is quite difficult for you. Your approach leads to thinking that John was constantly going back and forth between lliteral and figurative language in passages like Revelation 6:12-14. Why would he do that? That only serves to confuse people. No, he was using figurative language throughout the passage to describe the impending final wrath of God and the dread that people will feel when it is upon them.

Great tribulation, like no other time can be accepted as THE GREAT TRIBULATION for most of us.
You have nothing to say in response to the verse I used to back up my understanding of "great tribulation" that believers come out of?

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Why would this not illustrate the "great tribulation" that the multitudes come out of? You are not able to even give a response to this? Again, the English word "the" was added by the translators in that verse. You also have no thoughts on that? You're not even willing to consider that you may be wrong about this?

Selectively tribulations throughout history that have affected regions, countries even just a few people in the world were great for them. Being burned alive, being crucified, eaten by a wild animal is a great tribulation for sure. But the whole planet suffers this GT.
All believers who enter the kingdom of God suffer great tribulation. Is that not what Acts 14:22 indicates?

What about this verse:

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Are verses like Acts 14:22 and 2 Timothy 3:12 not referring to believers on the whole planet?
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Where are you getting this information from?
Well, a star falls to earth ( which in this case is an angel who has the keys to the bottomless pit and opens it up and out of it comes demons. Out of what? The earth. This is not some spiritual realm outside of physical reality. Smoke comes out of the earth like a furnace ( as in a volcano). Capisce?
These demons, including Apollyon are spiritual beings yet locked up in chains in a deep dark cavern in the center of the earth. How is this possible? By God's power.
>>But if I were to guess I would say this: Since angels have the ability to appear in physical form and back to spiritual form, God has restricted these fallen angels to their physical form, until He will release them when the trumpets blow.

So, you're trying to tell me that the cliff led all the way down to the center of the earth
No, I was telling you that where the incident happened ( where Jesus drove thenpigs off the cliff) was in the area where the Israelites claimed demons dwelled beneath. The demons themselves asked not to be sent to the Abyss.

Said by whom? Give me some scripture to back up your claims. Do you have any?
"But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 1 Thes. 5:1-2.
Can you figure that one? Times and seasons = Day of the Lord. Not one day.
By whom? None of this means anything. Give me scripture if you want me to take you seriously about this.
Science has studied the volcanic history of the Great Syrian/ Africa Rift a series of connecting faults that stretch 3700 miles from northern Syria, through Lebanon, the Jordan River Valley throught he Sea of Gallilee, then down to the Dead Sea and continuing south to the Red Sea and beyond.
Other names of the Dead Sea: "The Salt Sea, Sea of Aravah, Lake of Asphalt, Eastern Sea, The Sea of Sodom, The Sea of Lot, The Devil's Sea, The Sea of Zoar and The Stinking Sea." Encyclopedia Judaica, 2nd Edition, Volume Five, 2007
I believe that is a ridiculous approach to interpreting scripture
Scripture is spiritually discerned and we also have historically and scientific evidence to support it. Archeological finds for centuries have confirmed people, places, events - the truth in scripture, not that we start with that. So when the Bible speaks of an event such as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorah with fire, science later comes along and confirms that the area had a history of volcanic activity - what's wrong with that?
You take an approach to interpreting scirpture that is no different than what one would take to read a news article that is just reporting the facts in a chronological, straightforward way. But, we know that scripture is not always chronological and straightforward. So, what you said here is a terrible approach to interpreting scripture.
I have been a born again Christian for 32 years. I have a relationship with God who lives in me and guides me. I discern what I discern and sometimes look outside scripture. We are also taught lessons in life that are outside of scripture. There is much to the physical realm that is not in scripture. But the concepts of Hades and the Abyss do come from scripture:
Job 10:21-22
Job 11:7-8
Job 26:5-6
Numbers 16:31-35
Deuteronomy 32:22
Ezekiel 26:20-21
Isaiah 24:17-22
Psalm 140:10

Isaiah 38:18
Jonah 2:1-10
Matthew 11:23

In the following verse from the book of Revelation, stars represent angels (or messengers).

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches
Absolutely.
You think it makes sense that John was constantly going back and forth in that passage between literal things and symbolic things.
No I think God told him exactly what He wanted written down, both literal and symbolic words and phrases.
All believers who enter the kingdom of God suffer great tribulation. Is that not what Acts 14:22 indicates?
Acts 14:22 says we in life, individually will suffer tribulations and as I said, some may be great. But the Great Tribulatuon is suffered simulataneously by billions! Capisce?
 
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Truth7t7

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You just called "God" in my statement: "Metaphysical Mystical Gobbly Goop."

There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Im banished again to weeping and gnashing of teeth, big smiles!

Jesus Is The Lord