Rev 3.10 PreTrib or PostTrib

[Marilyn C]

Where do you find that in Scripture? It is a doctrine that I have taught for many years in the past. I know it very well enough that it is indeed a false doctrine after years of study.


That is false. The Scripture does not say this. It is your private interpreation that you believe the Holy Spirit will leave the building, where the faithful will be physically removed from Earth. I say that your whole idea is obfuscated and twisted.

2nd Thessalonians 2:7

• "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now restraineth will restrain, until he be taken out of the way."

Why was this spirit restrained, Marilyn? Was it so the elect could be sealed? You never seem to practice the sound hermeneutic of comparing scripture with scripture to interpret scripture. And once again, you completely ignore the context in Revelation 7:1, which is that this wind that will hurt the earth and sea, is only being restrained so that all Israel can be saved/sealed. And where does God talk about all Israel being saved? Isn't it in Romans chapter 11, where God speaks of the Gentiles coming into the Israel Covenant Olive Tree, and then saying "THUSLY" all Israel shall be saved. And so, or in this manner all Israel shall be saved. Selah! That's what it says. It’s the New Testament Church age. And "LOW AND BEHOLD" we read that God restrained Satan at that time so that he could spoil (seize by right of conquest) Satan's house, sealing the election of Israel. Imagine that! Satan was bound so that God could seal/save those whom Satan held captive. And where is Satan bound? In the bottomless pit! Total harmony with God's word of restraint of the evil spirit.

2nd Thessalonians 2:6-8

• "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
• For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (Restraineth) will let (Restrain), until he be taken out of the way.
• And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

Now you tell me. What Spirit is this that is being restrained by God (in the New Testament period), and will continue to be restrained until he who restrains it (Only God could) is taken out of the way (literally, out of the midst). What holy temple is being spoken about in this chapter, and what spirit is being restrained from taking a seat there until "He that restrains is taken out of the midst?" Doesn't that spirit come from the pit? And don't the four angels lose it?

It's total consistency with truth, and total enmity with all the things you teach concerning what God is restraining so that His servants could be sealed. After God secured all of the Elect through the Two Witnesses' testimony (since the Cross), salvation is over. The time of winter and sabbath has come. He removes His restraining hand so that the spirit of Satan can be revealed through the false prophets and christs to deceive those people IN THE CONGREGATION who have NOT YET sealed by God. They may seek salvation but will not find it. They will not realize that but its too late for them. Which is why Christ warned:

Mat 24:19-25
(19) And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
(20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
(21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
(22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
(23) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
(24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
(25) Behold, I have told you before.

God is not referring to any difficulty in fleeing from Jerusalem to literal mountains, as many 70AD people believe. Instead, we are being warned about the TIMING of their flight, not the hardships involved. In other words, pray that it is not "at these times" when you are seeking salvation. Selah!

This warning is not about the literal Sabbath days, whether Saturday or Sunday, or about the literal winter months. Winter symbolizes a time when the harvest (sealing all Elect) is finished and nothing more grows in the Kingdom of God. The Sabbath, a day of rest, signifies a time when men can no longer work to promote salvation in the kingdom anymore from God's perspective. Why? Because it is the period in which God judges His unfaithful church, and they will not be able to achieve salvation during the loosening of Satan (whom God uses for this purpose).

But AFTER all the Elect are secured, as stated in Revelation 7:1-4, can the winds of judgment begin. This is for the judgment of the whore, not the world. This must take place right before the Second Coming...and yes, the rapture of the Elect.

You are mixing people`s - Israel and the Body of Christ. The B/C was not revealed until Christ revealed it to the Apostle Paul. Matthew is written to the Jews. That is basic reading of scripture.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You are mixing people`s - Israel and the Body of Christ. The B/C was not revealed until Christ revealed it to the Apostle Paul. Matthew is written to the Jews. That is basic reading of scripture.

 

[Marilyn C]

Easy to sigh and roll eyes but harder to do some work to show what you think is wrong.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Easy to sigh and roll eyes but harder to do some work to show what you think is wrong.

No, I think you have no clue about what you're talking about regarding Israel and the Body of Christ. So I will leave it at that because you are already wrong about other things too. Not worth my time.

 

[Douggg]

What are you talking about? Who said anything about us being judged by God's wrath? We are going to escape His wrath on the day of the Lord which will come unexpectedly when Jesus returns and will bring "sudden destruction" upon those in spiritual darkness from which "they shall not escape". Paul said "But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief." (1 Thess 5:4). That shows that we will still be here when that day arrives, but it won't catch us completely off guard like it will unbelievers and we will escape it by way of being changed to put on bodily immortality and by being caught up to safety when we meet the Lord in the air.

So, you are agreeing with me that 1Thessalonians5:9-11 is speaking about the resurrection/rapture ?

I think where we are disagreeing is that you think the day of the Lord begins when Jesus returns. Yes ?

And differently, I think the day of the Lord begins when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act described in 2Thessalonians2:4 triggering God's wrath in reaction to his claim of having achieved God-hood, and sitting in the temple of God.

I don't believe that Christians looking for the rapture will have to go through the great tribulation. And that the resurrection/rapture will be some time before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act.

 

[Douggg]

Easy to sigh and roll eyes but harder to do some work to show what you think is wrong.

Hi Marilyn, @TribulationSigns likes to talk in terms of "congregations" - which can be confusing. I did a kjv bible search on "congregation" and it is found in only one place in the new testament - Acts 13:43.

In the old testament, the term "congregation" is found 330 times.

CONGREGATION IN THE BIBLE

See 'congregation' instances in the King James Version (KJV).

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

 

[WPM]

Hi Marilyn, @TribulationSigns likes to talk in terms of "congregations" - which can be confusing. I did a kjv bible search on "congregation" and it is found in only one place in the new testament - Acts 13:43.

In the old testament, the term "congregation" is found 330 times.

CONGREGATION IN THE BIBLE

See 'congregation' instances in the King James Version (KJV).

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

The word ekklesia actually means congregation, assembly or gathering.

 

[WPM]

So you won't acknowledge Christ's teaching, okay, got it.

You are espousing man's teaching.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You are espousing man's teaching.

Prove it

 

[WPM]

Actually, the day of the Lord comes with the Judgment of God upon His unfaithful Congregation first, after the death of Two Witnesses when the Spirit of Life come upon them to stand up and prophesy judgment upon the Church that has become desolate. Then the world with the Second Coming and WTJ. Remember, the House of God (ie. Church) must be judged first before the Second Coming. It started with the "day of clouds, thick darkness, gloominess, smoke, etc. when we read:

1.) Battle of Gog and Magog, the invading army of counterfeit Christians into Churches to spoil and prey on the Gospel:

Eze 38:9-12
(9) Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
(10) Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
(11) And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
(12) To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

2.) The army of counterfeit Christians with the Spirit of Locusts with smokes that block the Sun and Air of the Gospel:

Rev 9:2-4
(2) And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
(3) And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
(4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.sd

3.) Total darkness within the New Testament Congregation, where false prophets and christs sits (rule) preventing professed Christians from receiving the Truth because they refuse to repent of their deeds.

Rev 16:7-11
(7) And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
(8) And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
(9) And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
(10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
(11) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

The Day of the Lord represents the wrath of the Lamb, beginning with His unfaithful congregation, as we will still be on Earth to witness it. Then, at the last trumpet, the unsaved world will face judgment, while the faithful Elect who are alive and remain will be gathered together in the air to meet the coming Christ.

Not so. That is invented speculation. The day of the Lord comes at the last trumpet, when eternity is ushered in. Rev 9 is the 5th trumpet.

 

[WPM]

Let me ask you this question, Spiritual Israelite, to see if you fully understood Revelation 6:

Rev 6:12-17
(12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
(13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
(14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Is the Lord talking about the Second Coming and the Judgment of the world here? Or is it about the judgment of the New Testament congregation, the Church? Do you realize that sun, moon, stars, fig tree, and mountain and island all pointed to Churches, spiritually? Look at what woman has in Revelation 12. Sun, moon and stars..

Now, the mountains and islands are used in Scripture to refer to kingdoms, and often are the representation of the Lord's Kingdom. And the mountain because in the past they were also illustrating a places of protection. Those who are weary of sin flee as a bird to their mountain because that is where the protection of God is. It is the lofty place of safety from attack, and thus it is often used to represent the protection of God's kingdom. e.g., We are those in the mountains that go forth to bring the good news of the gospel (Isaiah 52:7).

Isaiah 51:5

• "My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust."

Isles are the same as Islands. Islands here represent the Lord's kingdom. As also seen in Isaiah 60.

Isaiah 60:9

• "Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee."

Mountains often have the same representation of His kingdom:

Psalms 87:1-3

• "His foundation is in the holy mountains.
• The LORD loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob.
• Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah."

also...

Psalms 11:12

• "...In the LORD put I my trust: how say ye to my soul, Flee as a bird to your mountain?
• For, lo, the wicked bend their bow, they make ready their arrow upon the string, that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart."

Psalms 121:1-2

• "I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.
• My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth."

The word translated hill is the exact same word translated mountain. Mount Zion represents the kingdom of God. Thus when we read Revelation 16:20, in its proper context, and in harmoneous relationship to the whole Bible, we see this is God's judgment specifically on the unfaithful church, whom He had warned of their removal before. They are being removed as a consequence of their disobedience.

Revelation 16:20

• "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

See? Compare this with what God warned the "fallen church" that He would do as a judgment if they didn't repent and do the first works:

Revelation 2:5

• "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

This is the fate of the fallen church, to be moved out of its place. For example, as symbolized also in Revelation chapter 6:

Revelation 6:14

• "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Their place was as a representation of the kingdom of God (as Israel's was before it fell), but because of their abominations, God's spirit is removed from them that they are no longer houses of God. In that verse, the heaven departing like a scroll "signifies" the Kingdom of Heaven is gone from them (as with Israel before them -Matthew 21:43), and it is done like a scroll closed to "signify" the word of God being shut up to them. A famine of hearing the word of God (Amos 8). Just like in Revelation 9, where people seek death in order to be saved but no longer find it. It is just God has removed the kingdom of Heaven away from them like He did with the Jews at the Cross. This is the fulfillment of what God promised the church in Revelation chapter 2 would happen if they didn't repent of their evil works. God's judgment upon the churches is realized.

Now that we have covered mountains and islands here. Who do you really think the kings of the earth, great men, rich men, chief captains, mighty men, bondmen and free man, the Lord is talking about here that seek protection in the mountains when the day of His Wrath comes upon them, hummm? What mountain is it? Let hear from you if you can biblically explain this.

Revelation 6:15-17

(15) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
(16) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
(17) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

If you think it will take place on the last day where "all" people will try to flee to Smoky Mountain, Rocky Mountain, or Alps and cry "to" the moutains and rocks for protection? Humm.. come on! Nope... the judgment of the church comes first and this is what Revelation 6 is about!

That was the 6th seal, right? What happen next in the seventh seal?

Rev 8:1
(1) And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Sounds like a Second Coming to you yet?

This is spiritualizing gone crazy. Nothing is safe in your hermeneutics.

Isaiah 34:1-4, 8: “Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree … For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.”

There is total destruction – for those left behind. Anyway, demons are not dissolved in Premil, they saturate its alleged future millennium 1,000 yrs after the second coming.

Revelation 6:13-17 records: “And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, andhide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

This is talking about the topography of the physical earth and starry host being totally destroyed. There are no survivors!

Isaiah 34 is speaking about the physical change that affects the earth, heavens and elements when Jesus comes. There is so much Scripture that forbids the your theory that you are forced to spiritualize away the clearest and most literal of Scripture, ironically it literalizes the one book that is the most symbolic in Scripture (Revelation). This alone is grounds to reject the doctrine.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So, you are agreeing with me that 1Thessalonians5:9-11 is speaking about the resurrection/rapture ?

Yes.

I think where we are disagreeing is that you think the day of the Lord begins when Jesus returns. Yes ?

Yes, because that is obviously the case. The day of the Lord comes unexpectedly as a thief. Jesus comes unexpectedly as a thief (Matthew 24:42-44, Revelation 16:15). The day of the Lord is all about His second coming. It will bring sudden, unexpected global destruction (2 Peter 3:10-12), just as Jesus taught Himself about His second coming (Matthew 24:35-44).

And differently, I think the day of the Lord begins when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act described in 2Thessalonians2:4 triggering God's wrath in reaction to his claim of having achieved God-hood, and sitting in the temple of God.

But, nowhere in 2 Thessalonians 2 does it say that. The day of the Lord comes unexpectedly and upon its arrival "sudden destruction" occurs from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape". Your view does not line up at all with what is written in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-11 or 2 Peter 3:3-13 about the day of the Lord.

I don't believe that Christians looking for the rapture will have to go through the great tribulation.

Why not? What exactly is "the great tribulation" in your view? Be specific. And why would Christians need to be taken off of the earth before it occurs?

And that the resurrection/rapture will be some time before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act.

I completely disagree. Why would that be the case? Where is that taught in scripture? Show me. Be specific. Stop being vague and clearly show me how you come to this conclusion.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is spiritualizing gone crazy. Nothing is safe in your hermeneutics.

Isaiah 34:1-4, 8: “Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree … For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.”

There is total destruction – for those left behind. Anyway, demons are not dissolved in Premil, they saturate its alleged future millennium 1,000 yrs after the second coming.

Revelation 6:13-17 records: “And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, andhide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

This is talking about the topography of the physical earth and starry host being totally destroyed. There are no survivors!

Isaiah 34 is speaking about the physical change that affects the earth, heavens and elements when Jesus comes. There is so much Scripture that forbids the your theory that you are forced to spiritualize away the clearest and most literal of Scripture, ironically it literalizes the one book that is the most symbolic in Scripture (Revelation). This alone is grounds to reject the doctrine.

Agree completely. All he can do is respond childishly with a laughing emoji since nothing you say here can be refuted. He is so obsessed with proving how spiritual he is that he gets completely carried away with spiritualizing almost the entire Bible. I'm not even sure if He thinks that Jesus was literally, bodily resurrected from the dead. He doesn't believe that Satan is an actual being. I don't know where he gets his nonsense from.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Yes, because that is obviously the case. The day of the Lord comes unexpectedly as a thief. Jesus comes unexpectedly as a thief (Matthew 24:42-44, Revelation 16:15). The day of the Lord is all about His second coming. It will bring sudden, unexpected global destruction (2 Peter 3:10-12), just as Jesus taught Himself about His second coming (Matthew 24:35-44).

No, I believe you have been led to think that the phrase "coming as a thief" strictly refers to the Second Coming on the Last Day. That is not the case. The coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is like a "thief" to those in the unfaithful congregation, as it serves to judge them when many people are unaware. In Matthew 25, regarding the ten virgins, Christ announces that He is "coming," but He has not yet appeared. The wise virgins have the light to see, while the foolish and rebellious virgins will not be able to see and will go out to buy and sell instead.

You need to read Revelation again:

Rev 3:3
(3) Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Did Christ talk about the Second Coming here? No. It is about the hour of judgment upon the unfaithful Church, which we are supposed to watch. Revelation 16 confirms this:

Rev 16:13-16
(13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
(14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
(15) Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
(16) And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

This is not the Second Coming for there is a time for Armageddon which takes place first! This is the judgment of the whore. Note that Christ's coming as a thief has everything to do with the judgment of the rebellion of his House when we are to watch and keep our garments (of salvation). It is not the end yet! This is how Christ gathers together the false prophets and christs to bring spiritual destruction upon THIS REBELLION MOUNTAIN, His unfaithful church, that is supposed to represent Him.

Joe 3:9-16
(9) Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
(10) Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
(11) Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
(12) Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
(13) Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
(14) Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
(15) The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
(16) The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Is this the Second Coming? No, it is the judgment of His people, His mountain, His house. The Valley of Jehoshaphat is what Armageddon is all about. Please consider whether professed Christians are turning their plowshares back into swords and their pruning hooks back into spears. Do you understand what the Lord meant by that? Before you say anything, read this carefully:

Isa 2:3-5
(3) And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
(4) And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
(5) O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

This passage discusses salvation, highlighting that we are no longer fighting God with swords and spears. Instead, we have been given plowshares and pruning hooks to begin planting His kingdom in the world by walking in His path and following God’s law, which is written in our hearts. Selah!

However, in Joel 3, it speaks of a time when the rebellious will revert their plowshares and pruning hooks back into swords and spears, engaging in battle against God once more by attacking His faithful witnesses in His House. This represents the wars and rumors of wars that Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24. It is a spiritual conflict—an ideological battle—between God’s people and those aligned with Satan. It is a struggle between His kingdom and Satan’s kingdom, His holy nation and Satan’s nation.

Due to their rebellion, people have rejected and killed the Two Witnesses, just as the Jews rejected and crucified the Messiah. Selah! This hour of judgment will come upon professed Christians, much like the judgment experienced by the Jews at the Cross. The representation of the kingdom was taken from professed Christians as well. The city falls—Deja Vu!

This is why the judgment of the House of God must come first before the Second Coming. Selah!

Rev 18:8-10
(8) Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
(9) And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
(10) Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

This is not the Second Coming.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, I believe you have been led to think that the phrase "coming as a thief" strictly refers to the Second Coming on the Last Day. That is not the case.

It is clearly the case in relation to the day of the Lord. Just compare 2 Peter 3:3-13 to Matthew 24:35-44. They teach the same thing. Do you deny that Matthew 24:35-44 is in relation to the second coming on the last day?

 

[TribulationSigns]

It is clearly the case in relation to the day of the Lord. Just compare 2 Peter 3:3-13 to Matthew 24:35-44. They teach the same thing. Do you deny that Matthew 24:35-44 is in relation to the second coming on the last day?

Read the context:

Mat 24:35-51
(35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
(36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
(37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
(39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(40) Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(41) Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(42) Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
(43) But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
(44) Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
(45) Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
(46) Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
(47) Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
(48) But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
(49) And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
(50) The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
(51) And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Do you know what verses 40-42 talk about?

Compare this with Luke:

Luk 17:31-37
(31) In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
(32) Remember Lot's wife.
(33) Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
(34) I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
(35) Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(36) Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(37) And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Do you understand this? Is this talking about the Second Coming? No! What is the meaning of two men in one bed and one will be taken, other left? Two women grinding together, one taken other left? Two men work in the field, one taken and other left. Do you understand what what the Lord talked about? And what dead body did the Lord talked about here where eagles be gathered together? Who are the eagles? That is also within Matthew 24 you quoted. What house did the Lord talk about? None other than the CHURCH!

 

[Scott Downey]

Read the context:

Mat 24:35-51
(35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
(36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
(37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
(39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(40) Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(41) Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(42) Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
(43) But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
(44) Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
(45) Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
(46) Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
(47) Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
(48) But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
(49) And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
(50) The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
(51) And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Do you know what verses 40-42 talk about?

Compare this with Luke:

Luk 17:31-37
(31) In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
(32) Remember Lot's wife.
(33) Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
(34) I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
(35) Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(36) Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(37) And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Do you understand this? Is this talking about the Second Coming? No! What is the meaning of two men in one bed and one will be taken, other left? Two women grinding together, one taken other left? Two men work in the field, one taken and other left. Do you understand what what the Lord talked about? And what dead body did the Lord talked about here where eagles be gathered together? Who are the eagles? That is also within Matthew 24 you quoted. What house did the Lord talk about? None other than the CHURCH!

Eagles-Vultures, have you seen them feeding on the dead bodies?
Can't be the church of the dead bodies.
The slain of the Lord at His return will be many.

KJ21
And they answered and said unto Him, “Where, Lord?” And He said unto them, “Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”
ASV
And they answering say unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Where the body is, thither will the eagles also be gathered together.
AMP
And they asked Him, “Where, Lord?” He answered, “Where the corpse is, there the vultures will be gathered.”
AMPC
Then they asked Him, Where, Lord? He said to them, Wherever the dead body is, there will the vultures or eagles be gathered together.
BRG
And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
CSB
“Where, Lord?” they asked him. He said to them, “Where the corpse is, there also the vultures will be gathered.”
CEB
The disciples asked, “Where, Lord?” Jesus said, “The vultures gather wherever there’s a dead body.”
CJB
They asked him, “Where, Lord?” He answered, “Wherever there’s a dead body, that’s where the vultures gather.”
CEV
Then Jesus' disciples spoke up, “But where will this happen, Lord?” Jesus said, “Where there is a corpse, there will always be vultures.”

 

[Scott Downey]

(38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
(39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Yes, they all died. They were all taken away from the world of the living, flushed in a flood by water, but this earth is now reserved for fiery destruction.
Yes, He shall fill the places with the dead in the Day of His wrath, the Day of Vengeance of our God.

It may be that He kills them all, filling the places with the dead, then sends the fire, or kills them with fire, I don't know.
Psalm 110

The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
2 The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!
3 Your people shall be volunteers
In the day of Your power;
In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning,
You have the dew of Your youth.

4 The Lord has sworn
And will not relent,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”

5 The Lord is at Your right hand;
He shall [a]execute kings in the day of His wrath.
6 He shall judge among the nations,
He shall fill the places with dead bodies,
He shall [b]execute the heads of many countries.

7 He shall drink of the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He shall lift up the head.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Read the context:

No, YOU read the context. You consistently miss the context of scripture over and over again.

Mat 24:35-51
(35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
(36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
(37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
(39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(40) Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(41) Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(42) Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
(43) But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
(44) Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
(45) Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
(46) Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
(47) Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
(48) But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
(49) And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
(50) The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
(51) And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Do you know what verses 40-42 talk about?

Yes. Do you?

Compare this with Luke:

Luk 17:31-37
(31) In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
(32) Remember Lot's wife.
(33) Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
(34) I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
(35) Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(36) Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(37) And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Do you understand this? Is this talking about the Second Coming? No!

Yes!

What is the meaning of two men in one bed and one will be taken, other left? Two women grinding together, one taken other left? Two men work in the field, one taken and other left. Do you understand what what the Lord talked about?

Yes. Do you? It's talking about when Jesus comes and the church is taken up to meet Him in the air with those left behind on earth being destroyed. Did you not read my thread about Luke 17:26-37?

And what dead body did the Lord talked about here where eagles be gathered together? Who are the eagles? That is also within Matthew 24 you quoted. What house did the Lord talk about? None other than the CHURCH!

Luke 17:31-37 relates directly to what Jesus talks about just previous to that in Luke 17:26-30. Do you deny that Luke 17:26-30 is about the second coming, also? What Jesus was talking about is just like in Noah's day when Noah and his family went into the ark and were saved from God's wrath there, those left outside the ark were all killed. And in Lot's day after Lot and his family were taken by the angels out of Sodom, those left behind in Sodom were all killed. Jesus said it will be like that when He comes again. All who are saved will be rescued from God's wrath while all of the unsaved left on the earth will be killed.

 

[Douggg]