Revelation 11 and Revelation 12

[Douggg]

You lost me here. I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

In Revelation 11:15 the seventh angel sounds. In Revelation 12:7-9, at that moment, it is the signal for Michael and his angels to cast Satan and his angels down to earth.

The reaction in heaven is that the twenty four elders start rejoicing, because God has executed His great power to put an end to Satan and his angels' kingdom.

In Revelation 12:12, we read about that rejoicing...

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

....but Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Handing the kingdom over to God the Father takes place after the millennium is over. And all of the remaining dead resurrected to stand before the Great White Throne Judgement. Death and hell cast into the lake of fire. God the Father will then destroy this present earth and heaven. And the Great White Throne Judgement takes place.

 

[Douggg]

He already stood on the mount of Olives long ago. Zechariah 14 is not about the return of Christ.

The mount of Olives is still intact, not split in half - so still future.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In Revelation 11:15 the seventh angel sounds. In Revelation 12:7-9, at that moment, it is the signal for Michael and his angels to cast Satan and his angels down to earth.

Why are you thinking that what is described in Revelation 12 follows what is described in Revelation 11:15-19 chronologically? Do you see the birth and ascension of Jesus referenced in Revelation 12:5? Clearly, Revelation 12 is not a chronological continuation from the end of Revelation 11.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The mount of Olives is still intact, not split in half - so still future.

Like a typical premil, you often take figurative text literally. It results in you interpreting one verse in such a way that contradicts other scripture which teaches that Jesus will be destroying the earth and all the wicked on the earth when He returns (2 Thess 1:7-10, Matt 24:35-39, 2 Peter 3:9, Rev 19:17-18). It would be quite hard for Him to stand on the mount of Olives when He returns when it will be burned up just like the rest of the earth when He returns (2 Peter 3:10-12).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Handing the kingdom over to God the Father takes place after the millennium is over. And all of the remaining dead resurrected to stand before the Great White Throne Judgement. Death and hell cast into the lake of fire. God the Father will then destroy this present earth and heaven. And the Great White Throne Judgement takes place.

I actually agree with that, but we disagree on the timing of the millennium. But, that (after the millennium is over) is when the Father will begin to reign and you have Him beginning to reign even before Christ returns. That is what you indicated in a previous post. That doesn't line up with 1 Corinthians 15:22-24.

 

[Douggg]

Why are you thinking that what is described in Revelation 12 follows what is described in Revelation 11:15-19 chronologically? Do you see the birth and ascension of Jesus referenced in Revelation 12:5? Clearly, Revelation 12 is not a chronological continuation from the end of Revelation 11.

Parts of Revelation 12 relate to parts of Revelation 11.

Revelation 12:1-5 is not in Revelation 11. Revelation 12:1-5 are historic first century actions. Revelation 11 is end times and covers the 7 years before Jesus returns.

The comparison table in the opening post indicates what are first half actions and what are second half actions of the 7 years. Go back and take a look.

 

[Zao is life]

Here is my side by side table that I made comparing the verses in Revelation 11 to the verses in Revelation 12. I made the table in two parts to cover all the verses. The7th trumpet sounds, resulting in the third woe - Satan cast down to earth having a time, times, half time left. Basically the second half of the 7 years.


View attachment 45545
View attachment 45548

1. The chapter and verse divisions in the Bible were only added in 1227 A.D.

2. From what I can see Revelation 12 v 17 doesn't go with the 7th trumpet (when the beast has been judged) - it goes with Revelation 13 vs 2b & 7:

"So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went away to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep God's commandments and hold to the testimony about Jesus. And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea. The dragon gave the beast his power, his throne, and great authority to rule. The beast was permitted to go to war against the saints and conquer them. He was given ruling authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation." (NetFree).

3. Revelation 12 vs 5 & 11 do not place the timing at the end of the age:

"The woman gave birth to a son, a male child, who is going to rule over all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was suddenly caught up to God and to his throne. Then war broke out in heaven.

(This tells us that) the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the ruling authority of his Christ, have now come, because the accuser of our brothers and sisters, the one who accuses them day and night before our God, has been thrown down, and they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives so much that they were afraid to die."​

 

[Zao is life]

.. Because Satan was cast out of heaven he could no longer accuse God's people in heaven day and night as he did before. That's why Paul could write this:

Romans 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

No one, including Satan, can make accusations against those who belong to God any longer because we have been made clean and have been forgiven of our sins ..

Love the way you linked the above two passages of scripture together because they belong together .

 

[Douggg]

1. The chapter and verse divisions in the Bible were only added in 1227 A.D.

I don't disagree that chapter and verse numbers were not part of John's original writings.

2. From what I can see Revelation 12 v 17 doesn't go with the 7th trumpet (when the beast has been judged) - it goes with Revelation 13 vs 2b & 7:

When the 7th trumpet sounds and Satan is cast down to earth for a time, times, half time period - that period parallels the 42 months of the beast-king's rule.

So it is both Satan and the beast-king who will persecute the Jews who don't flee to the mountains right away when the abomination of desolation statue image is setup.

The 7th trumpet sounding is not at that moment when the beast will have been judged (i.e.cast into the lake of fire), but will be the beginning of the end for Satan and his angels kingdom of Babylon the great.

This chart I made shows the parallel periods of time.

 

[Douggg]

Like a typical premil, you often take figurative text literally. It results in you interpreting one verse in such a way that contradicts other scripture which teaches that Jesus will be destroying the earth and all the wicked on the earth when He returns (2 Thess 1:7-10, Matt 24:35-39, 2 Peter 3:9, Rev 19:17-18). It would be quite hard for Him to stand on the mount of Olives when He returns when it will be burned up just like the rest of the earth when He returns (2 Peter 3:10-12).

What is figurative about Zechariah 14 ?

When Jesus returns, the martyred great tribulation saints will be resurrected and rule with Jesus for one thousand years on this present earth.

 

[Davidpt]

Since Zechariah 14 has been brought up, why would one then argue that Zechariah 14 is not about the 2nd coming when there is the following in the NT?

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Undeniably, unless one is too blinded by their doctrine to notice, this event is recorded in Zechariah 14:5 here--- and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee

We then have this in the NT---Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, And this in the OT----and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee

Obviously, ten thousands of his saints mean all the saints and is simply another way of expressing that. Is one going to argue that Jude 1:14-15 is not even involving the bodily return of Christ in the end of this age? To be consistent, if they are arguing that about Zechariah 14:5, they need to do the same with Jude 1:14-15 then.

Maybe this is what is tripping some up---And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these. There you go then, Zechariah is not Enoch, therefore, Zechariah 14:5 couldn't possibly be the same event recorded in Jude 1:14-15. I guess that means one is to believe that prophets who said something earlier in time, later prophets never ever repeat anything they had said? Good luck proving that per the following. And strangely enough, it too ends up involving Zechariah of all people.


Matthew 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

This indicates this was initially spoken by Jeremiah the prophet. Where then can we find this in the book of Jeremiah where he spoke these words? The only place I can find anything like this is in the following, and clearly he is not Jeremiah.

Zechariah 11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

If this doesn't prove what I allege, that something a prophet said earlier in time is sometimes repeated by another prophet later in time, nothing does. Clearly then, unless one disputes that Jude 1:14-15 involves the bodily return of Christ in the end of this age, that same one has to conclude that about Zechariah 14:5 as well, that that verse too involves the bodily return of Christ in the end of this age. Only someone stubborn beyond belief and just too prideful to admit they might be wrong about something is going to deny that Jude 1:14-15 and Zechariah 14:5 are involving the same event.

 

[Davidpt]

When the 7th trumpet sounds and Satan is cast down to earth for a time, times, half time period - that period parallels the 42 months of the beast-king's rule.

And you of course have the chart that proves what you allege. After all, how could a chart possibly be wrong, right? Especially a chart that Douggg has made.

When the 7th trumpet sounds the 42 month reign of the beast is in the past not just beginning instead. The wrath of God, the day of the Lord, comes after tribulation, not prior to it. Clearly, the 42 month reign of the beast is involving tribulation, not just normal tribulation though, but great tribulation.

Look what the text below indicates happens once the 7th trumpet sounds. Where are you seeing in any of that, the the 42 month reign initially beginning? Which verse or verses below support that? Now I remember, verse 15 and 17, then comparing to Revelation 12, maybe verse 10, right?

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


But let's not ignore the fact that the 7th trumpet sounds during the 6th seal, and that the 5th seal precedes the 6th seal. And what is something the 5th seal involves? Is it not this----until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Meaning during the 42 month reign of the beast, obviously. Or are you perhaps going to dispute, that when their brethren are also killed, that this is meaning during the 42 month reign of the beast, IOW, during great tribulation?

 

[Zao is life]

I don't disagree that chapter and verse numbers were not part of John's original writings.


When the 7th trumpet sounds and Satan is cast down to earth for a time, times, half time period - that period parallels the 42 months of the beast-king's rule.

So it is both Satan and the beast-king who will persecute the Jews who don't flee to the mountains right away when the abomination of desolation statue image is setup.

The 7th trumpet sounding is not at that moment when the beast will have been judged (i.e.cast into the lake of fire), but will be the beginning of the end for Satan and his angels kingdom of Babylon the great.

This chart I made shows the parallel periods of time.



View attachment 45623

I can't see how your timing can be accurate because John saw the beast's reign only starting when he or it (kingdom?) ascended from the abyss - and it's the beast that had ascended from the abyss that John saw making war against the two witnesses, overcoming and killing them before they rose from the dead and ascended into the clouds of heaven with their enemies watching them.

The 7th trumpet only sounds after that in the Revelation.

That beast that had ascended from the abyss is also the same beast that John saw as having received his power and authority from the dragon, and making war against the saints, overcoming them.
​

When the 7th trumpet sounds and Satan is cast down to earth for a time, times, half time period - that period parallels the 42 months of the beast-king's rule.

Actually John saw Christ's reign beginning when the 7th trumpet sounded, according to the actual text, not 42 months later. You're changing what the text says by what you say.​

 

[TribulationSigns]

The mount of Olives is still intact, not split in half - so still future.

(facepalm)

Because of your carnal mind, since the Mount of Olives sits east of the city today, has not yet physically split so you believe the prophecy is still future? You lack spiritual discernment.

Would it really matter to someone who already has their mind made up and refuses to be confused by the Biblical "facts?"

The Scriptures say CLEARLY He that fought against the nations was the Lord, and in that day His feet would stand upon the mount of Olives before Jerusalem. This was Christ at His first advent.

Matthew 21:1

• "And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,"

Matthew 24:3

• "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Christ made His triumphant Entry AS KING into Jerusalem from the Mount of Olives. Surely you don't believe this is all coincidence? Their King had come, He did fulfill Scripture, He did rule from Jerusalem, and Everlasting waters did flow. It's not future occurrence, it is Done!

Moreover, who said Zechariah 14 was at His second coming? Was it God's Word itself or you and your teachers? We can see from comparing Scripture with Scripture that to understand the symbolism we need to recognize that Jerusalem, the holy city and bride of God, is representative of the congregation, the People of God. In the Old Testament, that was the Jews and their old testament congregation. Zechariah 14 is in reference to their captivity, the apostasy that had gripped that Old Testament congregation, and this warfare in His congregation (Matthew 11:12) that ushers in the Messiah Himself and His messianic peace, comfort and the (millennial) Kingdom age. This time of Christ's first advent is when the Lord defeated the nations/gentiles that came against his people. Not Roman armies, not every physical nation in the world, and not at the end times in His second advent, but these nations (aka Gentiles - the unsaved people) were defeated by the Lord and by His army in their testimony. That's not rhetoric, but confirmed by Scripture. It was by the shedding of His blood that they were defeated.

Daniel 9:26

• "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

Indeed the people of the Prince, Christ's own people of the Old Testament congregation, did destroy the city and sanctuary, and consequently, the kingdom representation was taken from them and given to another (eg. New Testament congregation, the church). These were the nations that came against Jerusalem, as Christ this Prince, was delivered to the Gentiles for crucifixion by His own people. This language of delivering to the Gentiles is not coincidental, as it illustrates His people were working as Gentiles against their own Prince. Gentiles simply means anyone not a Jew, an alien or foreigner from Israel. Anyone who is not the true Jews or children of God are spiritually Gentiles (Revelation 3:9) and at war in Jerusalem. Just like you and I were BEFORE we were born again! We were spiritually Gentiles before we become spiritually Jews in Christ! Doesn't matter if you say you are a Jew by bloodline, you are not one in God's eyes. There was no "physical war going on in Jerusalem" when Christ came, so why do you think God prophesied Christ's coming to end Jerusalem's "warfare" (Isiah 40:1-2) and to bring comfort to her? What warfare is it, exactly? These are questions that many teachers ignore because it illustrates vividly that the Lord spoke this way. While they want to keep holding to an idea that understanding city spiritually is of men rather than of God. But the Biblical fact is, she indeed was at war, but not warfare as the world defines it (with guns and missiles), but as God's word does. Not by all the literal/physical nations battling against her as the world defines it, but as God does. Two different generations or families, one the messengers and children of Satan v.s. the other the messengers or children of God, at war. The war of WORDS! Even as Revelation 12 also depicts. The end result was that Christ came to the mount of Olives (signifying the anointed kingdom), came to Jerusalem as King, freed the children held in spiritual captivity, in bondage of Satan and his minions, and judged those who fought against Him. Not in your worldly vision of Premillennialists terms, but spiritual!

Zechariah 12:89

• "In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
• And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
• And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

The only real question is, when Christ poured out His Spirit of grace upon the house of David (Pentecost), how was Jerusalem under siege by all the nations, and how did God seek to destroy all the nations that came against Jerusalem? When you answer that question honestly, you know that this never spoke of a physical/literal war or nations!! The Lord did defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem and did destroy the nations that came up against her and He did pour out His spirit upon the house of David, and they did look upon Him whom they had pierced. Could it be anymore clearer?!? It is Done! Christ accomplished this at the cross!! And they did mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, as also confirmed yet again in John 19.

John 19:36-37

• "For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
• And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced."

It's not scripture yet to be fulfilled, it's Scripture already fulfilled! We just need to take God's word as authoritative, rather than listen to the self-serving denials of men snared in Premillennial/Judaism/Zionism that you are digging yourself into! Sad.

 

[Zao is life]

Since Zechariah 14 has been brought up, why would one then argue that Zechariah 14 is not about the 2nd coming when there is the following in the NT?

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Undeniably, unless one is too blinded by their doctrine to notice, this event is recorded in Zechariah 14:5 here--- and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee

We then have this in the NT---Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, And this in the OT----and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee

Obviously, ten thousands of his saints mean all the saints and is simply another way of expressing that. Is one going to argue that Jude 1:14-15 is not even involving the bodily return of Christ in the end of this age? To be consistent, if they are arguing that about Zechariah 14:5, they need to do the same with Jude 1:14-15 then.

Maybe this is what is tripping some up---And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these. There you go then, Zechariah is not Enoch, therefore, Zechariah 14:5 couldn't possibly be the same event recorded in Jude 1:14-15. I guess that means one is to believe that prophets who said something earlier in time, later prophets never ever repeat anything they had said? Good luck proving that per the following. And strangely enough, it too ends up involving Zechariah of all people.


Matthew 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

This indicates this was initially spoken by Jeremiah the prophet. Where then can we find this in the book of Jeremiah where he spoke these words? The only place I can find anything like this is in the following, and clearly he is not Jeremiah.

Zechariah 11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

If this doesn't prove what I allege, that something a prophet said earlier in time is sometimes repeated by another prophet later in time, nothing does. Clearly then, unless one disputes that Jude 1:14-15 involves the bodily return of Christ in the end of this age, that same one has to conclude that about Zechariah 14:5 as well, that that verse too involves the bodily return of Christ in the end of this age. Only someone stubborn beyond belief and just too prideful to admit they might be wrong about something is going to deny that Jude 1:14-15 and Zechariah 14:5 are involving the same event.

It's not only Zechariah and Jude that say so:

"These (ten kings of the beast) will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them. For He is Lord of lords and King of kings." -- Revelation 17:14.
"And He has on His garment, and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS." -- Revelation 19:16.

"And those with Him are the called and elect and faithful ones." -- Revelation 17:14.
"And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." -- Revelation 19:14.
"And the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with you." -- Zechariah 14:5.
"And Enoch, the seventh from Adam, also prophesied to these, saying, Behold, the Lord came with myriads of His saints" - Jude 1:14.

Jude 1:14, Revelation 17:14, Revelation 19:14. Verse 14 in all three passages. Just love that .. coincidence?. - makes it easier to remember.

 

[Douggg]

Or are you perhaps going to dispute, that when their brethren are also killed, that this is meaning during the 42 month reign of the beast, IOW, during great tribulation?

The great tribulation begins when the Abomination of Desolation is setup. From Daniel 12:12, 1335 days before Jesus returns. I show the AoD setup on day 1185, 1335 days before Jesus returns.

 

[Douggg]

Actually John saw Christ's reign beginning when the 7th trumpet sounded, according to the actual text, not 42 months later. You're changing what the text says by what you say.

John recorded what he heard them in heaven rejoicing about.... which was the ending of Satan and his angels' kingdom.

The 7th angel sounding identifies what will be the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth. The third woe is Satan cast down earth, having great wrath, knowing his time is short.

 

[Zao is life]

(facepalm)

Because of your carnal mind, since the Mount of Olives sits east of the city today, has not yet physically split so you believe the prophecy is still future? You lack spiritual discernment.

Would it really matter to someone who already has their mind made up and refuses to be confused by the Biblical "facts?"

The Scriptures say CLEARLY He that fought against the nations was the Lord, and in that day His feet would stand upon the mount of Olives before Jerusalem. This was Christ at His first advent.

Matthew 21:1

• "And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,"

Matthew 24:3

• "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Christ made His triumphant Entry AS KING into Jerusalem from the Mount of Olives. Surely you don't believe this is all coincidence? Their King had come, He did fulfill Scripture, He did rule from Jerusalem, and Everlasting waters did flow. It's not future occurrence, it is Done!

Moreover, who said Zechariah 14 was at His second coming? Was it God's Word itself or you and your teachers? We can see from comparing Scripture with Scripture that to understand the symbolism we need to recognize that Jerusalem, the holy city and bride of God, is representative of the congregation, the People of God. In the Old Testament, that was the Jews and their old testament congregation. Zechariah 14 is in reference to their captivity, the apostasy that had gripped that Old Testament congregation, and this warfare in His congregation (Matthew 11:12) that ushers in the Messiah Himself and His messianic peace, comfort and the (millennial) Kingdom age. This time of Christ's first advent is when the Lord defeated the nations/gentiles that came against his people. Not Roman armies, not every physical nation in the world, and not at the end times in His second advent, but these nations (aka Gentiles - the unsaved people) were defeated by the Lord and by His army in their testimony. That's not rhetoric, but confirmed by Scripture. It was by the shedding of His blood that they were defeated.

Daniel 9:26

• "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

Indeed the people of the Prince, Christ's own people of the Old Testament congregation, did destroy the city and sanctuary, and consequently, the kingdom representation was taken from them and given to another (eg. New Testament congregation, the church). These were the nations that came against Jerusalem, as Christ this Prince, was delivered to the Gentiles for crucifixion by His own people. This language of delivering to the Gentiles is not coincidental, as it illustrates His people were working as Gentiles against their own Prince. Gentiles simply means anyone not a Jew, an alien or foreigner from Israel. Anyone who is not the true Jews or children of God are spiritually Gentiles (Revelation 3:9) and at war in Jerusalem. Just like you and I were BEFORE we were born again! We were spiritually Gentiles before we become spiritually Jews in Christ! Doesn't matter if you say you are a Jew by bloodline, you are not one in God's eyes. There was no "physical war going on in Jerusalem" when Christ came, so why do you think God prophesied Christ's coming to end Jerusalem's "warfare" (Isiah 40:1-2) and to bring comfort to her? What warfare is it, exactly? These are questions that many teachers ignore because it illustrates vividly that the Lord spoke this way. While they want to keep holding to an idea that understanding city spiritually is of men rather than of God. But the Biblical fact is, she indeed was at war, but not warfare as the world defines it (with guns and missiles), but as God's word does. Not by all the literal/physical nations battling against her as the world defines it, but as God does. Two different generations or families, one the messengers and children of Satan v.s. the other the messengers or children of God, at war. The war of WORDS! Even as Revelation 12 also depicts. The end result was that Christ came to the mount of Olives (signifying the anointed kingdom), came to Jerusalem as King, freed the children held in spiritual captivity, in bondage of Satan and his minions, and judged those who fought against Him. Not in your worldly vision of Premillennialists terms, but spiritual!

Zechariah 12:89

• "In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
• And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
• And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

The only real question is, when Christ poured out His Spirit of grace upon the house of David (Pentecost), how was Jerusalem under siege by all the nations, and how did God seek to destroy all the nations that came against Jerusalem? When you answer that question honestly, you know that this never spoke of a physical/literal war or nations!! The Lord did defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem and did destroy the nations that came up against her and He did pour out His spirit upon the house of David, and they did look upon Him whom they had pierced. Could it be anymore clearer?!? It is Done! Christ accomplished this at the cross!! And they did mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, as also confirmed yet again in John 19.

John 19:36-37

• "For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
• And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced."

It's not scripture yet to be fulfilled, it's Scripture already fulfilled! We just need to take God's word as authoritative, rather than listen to the self-serving denials of men snared in Premillennial/Judaism/Zionism that you are digging yourself into! Sad.

(Facepalm)

Let's see how much you like your own medicine:

Your carnal mind has you believing you have a spiritual understanding that's far superior to all others, so what is meant to be taken literally is always spiritually fulfilled, in your carnal understanding of the scriptures.

Jesus gave the Olivet Discourse when He was standing on the Mount of Olives in which He spoke at length about His return and the sign of His return - but you miss what that sign is because your carnal mind has you rejecting everything that is meant to be taken literally as having "a spiritual fulfillment" while you imagine it's your "spiritual discernment" that gives you your understanding (which in your own opinion of yourself is way above the understanding of all whom you call "carnal" and accuse of "having a carnal mind" - which includes anyone and everyone who disagrees with you).

Jesus spoke at length about his return when standing on the Mount of Olives, giving only one sign of His return - which for some reason, the majority of believers - including yourself - miss.

Then He ascended into heaven from the Mount of Olives and the angel that appeared told the disciples present He would come again in like manner as they saw Him go into heaven.

It's not a strange thing that immediately before He ascended into heaven from the Mount of Olives (40 days after His crucifixion), the disciples asked Him if He was at that time going to "restore the Kingdom to Israel" - they knew what Zechariah 14 had prophesied about the Messiah setting His feet on the Mount of Olives and fighting against the nations that had come against Jerusalem.

It was 10 days before the Day of Pentecost and I doubt you even understand His reply, because you fail to realize that 42 days earlier, standing on the Mount of Olives He had already told them that the gospel of the Kingdom (which they had just asked about) would first be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations, and that at that time (Greek: tote) the end would come - and here once again standing on the Mount of Olives immediately before His ascension He told them THEY were going to be His witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea, and UNTO THE UTTERMOST PART OF THE EARTH.

So do go about getting yourself ready for the day Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives - because the saints are coming with Him after the resurrection - and you won't be ready for either event if you keep calling all His saints who dare disagree with you regarding anything you imagine yourself to have a superior spiritual discernment about, of being "carnal" and "fleshly" and of having a "carnal mind".

(facepalm).​

 

[Douggg]

I can't see how your timing can be accurate because John saw the beast's reign only starting when he or it (kingdom?) ascended from the abyss - and it's the beast that had ascended from the abyss that John saw making war against the two witnesses, overcoming and killing them before they rose from the dead and ascended into the clouds of heaven with their enemies watching them.

The person becomes the beast before day 1185 of the 7 years because the abomination of desolation statue image of the beast will be setup on day 1185, 1335 days before Jesus returns.

From day 1185, the two witnesses will battle the beast, as the Jews flee to the wilderness. Then after 75 days of battling the beast, the beast finally overcomes them and kills them on day 1260 of the 7 years.

 

[Zao is life]

The person becomes the beast before day 1185 of the 7 years because the abomination of desolation statue image of the beast will be setup on day 1185, 1335 days before Jesus returns.

From day 1185, the two witnesses will battle the beast, as the Jews flee to the wilderness. Then after 75 days of battling the beast, the beast finally overcomes them and kills them on day 1260 of the 7 years.


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OK so though it may appear so, I'm not holding condescension for you or for your view when I explain why I disagree in the way I do below:​

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"Abomination of Desolation" is a phrase from the Book of Daniel describing the pagan sacrifices with which the 2nd century BC Greek king Antiochus IV Epiphanes replaced the twice-daily offering in the Jewish temple, or alternatively the altar on which such offerings were made." (Abomination of desolation - Wikipedia)​

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I wonder why?

Maybe because the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place is the same as the man of sin seating himself up in the (real and only) tabernacle of God in the world / on the earth - and he is the antitype of Antiochus IV, "Epiphanes"?

Find out what "Epiphanes" means. Maybe it will shed some light - especially if we compare it with this:

"And it opened its mouth in blasphemy toward God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those dwelling in Heaven." -- Revelation 13:6.

Once (if) you ever start realizing that Daniel's 1,335 days already took place in the days of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, then you might start understanding why that 1.335 days mentioned in Daniel are not mentioned in the Revelation, or anywhere in the New Testament.

But if you believe the Revelation is talking to us about the final seven years of this age though, then you have already started with trying interpret reality with yet another fallacy, IMO.

We're very far from agreeing on your graphs with regards to the timing - and that includes with regards to the timing of the resurrection / rapture.​