Revelation was written during Nero's reign before 70AD

[daq]

John 1:1-9 ASV
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5. And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness apprehended it not.
6. There came a man, sent from God, whose name was John.
7. The same came for witness, that he might bear witness of the light, that all might believe through him.
8. He was not the light, but came that he might bear witness of the light.
9. There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world.

2 Corinthians 5:14 ASV
14. For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died;

Apparently none of you fully understand what it means to kill the Light of every man.
If you kill the Light of every man then every man is dead and died at the Cross.
Even every living soul that was in the sea died, (Revelation 16:3).

 

[veteran]

I have never believed that date. I agree with the OP.

Revelation was very likely written between AD 65-70 before the temple was destroyed.

In Revelation 11:1-2 John was given a rod and told to measure the temple of God. This was written before Jerusalem was trampled under foot in AD 70 otherwise there would be no temple for John to measure if it were after AD 70! This isn't speaking of a "rebuilt Jewish Temple" since there's not one verse that supports the rebuilding of a temple.

We also know that John continued his missionary work after Patmos. This would be unlikely if Revelation was written in 96 AD because John would have been in his 90's. But with the book written in the era of AD 65-70, before the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, John would have been in his early to mid 60's making it more feasible for him to travel and evangelize.

One man said...
Another point is that John wrote Revelation to a specific group of churches in Asia (Revelation 1:4). The importance of this statement cannot be overlooked (even though it has been by many scholars). There is only one small window of time in which there were only seven churches in Asia. The early AD 60's. The apostle Paul established nine churches in that area, but only seven were addressed in Revelation. The reason for this is that the cities of Colosse, Hierapolis, and Laodicea, were all destroyed by an earthquake around AD 61. Laodicea was rebuilt soon afterwards, but the other two cities were not. This left only seven churches in Asia during the five years just prior to the beginning of the Roman/Jewish war.

Conclusion​

If the Apostle John was banished to Patmos under the reign of Nero, as the internal evidence indicates, he wrote the book of Revelation about AD 68 or 69, which was after the death of that emperor; but the gospels and epistles some years later. One of the oddest facts about the New Testament is that what on any showing would appear to be the single most datable and climactic event of the period — the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 — is never once mentioned as a passed fact.

The inscription to the book of Revelation, in the Syrian version, first published by Deuteronomy Dieu, in 1627, and, afterwards in the London Polyglot, is the following, "The Revelation which God made to John the evangelist, in the Island of Patmos, to which he was banished by Nero Caesar."
This places it before the year of our Lord 69AD.
　

The Revelation 11 chapter is covering the events of the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe and the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe. The event of the Gentiles there in regards to a temple in Jerusalem is for the time of God's two witnesses, which extend to the time of Christ's second coming.

Thus, those events are for the very end of this present world, the final generation that will see Christ's second coming.

Easy to know that, since the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe occurs within the same "hour" of the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe, and the final 7th Trumpet signals the day of the Lord and second coming of Christ Jesus.

So for the Preterist lie that Rev.11 was history to be true, it would have to mean Christ's second coming and gathering of His Church already happened within the same "hour" that the 70 A.D. temple was destroyed. Very easy to know that ain't true.

That's why men's doctrines of Preterism are so ignorant, and one who believes them must remain in ignorance also.

 

[AServantofJC]

QUESTION:

Why do so many oftentimes refuse to “do” the eternally common sense within Leviticus 19:17-18?

And to fulfill the eternally common sense within Matthew 18:3 and Matthew 11:25 and Luke 10:21 and to “do” the eternally common sense within John 14:15 and John 14:23-24 and John 15:14 and Matthew 28:19-20?



O Lord, our Shekhinah Father God in the Heavens, give more of your children the courage needed to “do” your commandments and to teach others to “do” them also.



Katargeō καταργέω

Outline of Biblical Usage:

1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
[a] to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
to deprive of force, influence, power

2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
[a] to cease, to pass away, be done away
to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
[c] to terminate all intercourse with one

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 27
KJV-AV — destroy 5, do away 3, abolish 3, cumber 1, loose 1, cease 1, fall 1, deliver 1, misc 11

Strong's Number G2673 matches the Greek καταργέω (katargeō), which occurs 32 times in 26 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV.


Luke 13:7
Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth (katargeō) it the ground?

Rom 3:3
For what if some did not believe? shall (katargeō) their unbelief make (katargeō) the faith of God without effect (katargeō)?

Rom 3:31
Do we (katargeō) then make void (katargeō) the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 4:14
For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect (katargeō):

Rom 6:6
Knowing this 5124, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed (katargeō), that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Rom 7:2
For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed (katargeō) from the law of [her] husband.

Rom 7:6
But now we are delivered (katargeō) from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

1Cr 1:28
And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought (katargeō) things that are:

1Cr 2:6
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought (katargeō):

1Cr 6:13
Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy (katargeō) both it and them. Now the body [is] not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

1Cr 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail (katargeō); whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away (katargeō).

1Cr 13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away (katargeō).

1Cr 13:11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away (katargeō) childish things.

1Cr 15:24
Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down (katargeō) all rule and all authority and power.

1Cr 15:26
The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed (katargeō) [is] death.

2Cr 3:7
But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away (katargeō):

2Cr 3:11
For if that which is done away (katargeō) [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.

2Cr 3:13
And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished (katargeō):

2Cr 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away (katargeō) in Christ.

Gal 3:17
And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make (katargeō) the promise of none effect (katargeō).

Gal 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you (katargeō), whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Gal 5:11
And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is (katargeō) the offence of the cross ceased (katargeō).

Eph 2:15
Having abolished (katargeō) in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

2Th 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy (katargeō) with the brightness of his coming:

2Tim 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished (katargeō) death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Hbr 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy (katargeō) him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;


Leviticus 19:17-18, Matthew 18:3, Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, John 14:15, John 14:23-24, John 15:14

Leviticus 19:17-18 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23-24 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.


Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Amen.
.
A prayer for this/these blog posts are that via the eternal-vision of our Shekhinah Father God and the continual-sacrificial efforts of His Holy Spirit, that John 8:32 would eventually become fulfilled towards all of mankind which states: “Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him; If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”


1Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there-be] prophecies, they shall fail (katargeō); [(-:] whether [there-be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there-be] knowledge, it shall vanish away (i.e. fail - katargeō). For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect (mature) is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.



Matthew 11:11-12 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.


<><>The Great Commandment<><>
Matthew 22:36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. <><>


<><>The Golden Rule<><>
Leviticus 19:17-18 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord. <><>


Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

John 12:32 (NIV) And I, when I am lifted-up [a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” Footnotes: [a] John 12:32 - The Greek for “lifted-up” also means “exalted”.


2 Peter 2:4-5, 9-12 (NIV) 4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, [a] putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; . . . 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh [c] and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from [d] the Lord. 12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish. Footnotes: [a] 2 Peter 2:4 Greek – Tartarus 2 Peter 2:4 Some manuscripts - in gloomy dungeons [c] 2 Peter 2:10 In contexts like this, the Greek word for - flesh (sarx) - refers to the sinful state of human beings, often presented as a power in opposition to the Spirit of God; also in verse 18. [d] 2 Peter 2:11 Many manuscripts - beings in the presence of the Lord.

Jude 1:6, 8-10 (NIV) 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling - these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. . . . 8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” [a] 10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct - as irrational animals do - will destroy them. Footnote: [a] Jude 1:9 Jude is alluding to the Jewish “Testament of Moses” (approximately the first century A.D.).

1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Ephesians 4:7-10 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Revelation 12:10-11 – 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Romans 14:11 (NIV) It is written: “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’” [a] Footnote: [a] - Isaiah 45:23

1Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there-be] prophecies, they shall fail (katargeō); [(-:] whether [there-be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there-be] knowledge, it shall vanish away (i.e. fail - katargeō). For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect (mature) is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


Revelation 12:11 And they overcame “him” [a] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Footnote: [a] “the accuser of our brethren” - “that ancient serpent called the devil, or satan, who leads the whole world astray” See - Ezekiel 28:18-19

Ezekiel 28:18-19 - 18 Thou (i.e. the devil) hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


<><>The Great Commission<><>
Matthew 28:16-20 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshiped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. <><>


<>A prayer for all the prodigal souls that our Shekhinah Father God has “always” sacrificially loved with His merciful agape, that they would “all” become eternally-saved, as every “Holy-Scripture” and especially the “Holy” Scripture of Matthew 20:1-16 has promised this to them, whenever they are taught about our Shekhinah Father God's infinite merciful goodness, and are then willing to “do” the commandments of The Lord Christ Jesus.<> “O Lord, our Shekhinah Father God in the Heavens, give more of your children the courage they need in order to 'do' your commandments and to mentor others to 'do' them also. Let your Loving Holiness rise up within our hearts and our souls; in the name of your Holy Son Jesus we pray, amen.”

 

[veteran]

The deceived are very good at quoting Scripture in droves to try and drum up support for their belief in falseness.

Apostle John was given Revelation by Christ while in prison on the Isle of Patmos long... after Jerusalem had been destroyed in 70 A.D. by the Romans.

The ONLY reason those on the false Preterist Doctrine of men want to TRY and move that time is so they can ATTEMPT to prove most of our Lord's Book of Revelation is PAST already. Afterall, the meaning of the word Preterist comes from 'preter', meaning 'past.'

 

[daq]

The deceived are very good at quoting Scripture in droves to try and drum up support for their belief in falseness.

Apostle John was given Revelation by Christ while in prison on the Isle of Patmos long... after Jerusalem had been destroyed in 70 A.D. by the Romans.

The ONLY reason those on the false Preterist Doctrine of men want to TRY and move that time is so they can ATTEMPT to prove most of our Lord's Book of Revelation is PAST already. Afterall, the meaning of the word Preterist comes from 'preter', meaning 'past.'

This is not to suggest that I defend the major viewpoints of Preterism, (rather what is written) but perhaps you should read Leviticus 16 and other various related passages concerning Yom Kippur and the great Day of Atonement. Revelation 15&16 concern the same Great Day of Atonement which is "rehearsed" at Yom Kippur in the seventh month, (10 Tishri) every year. However, these things were fulfilled first and foremost by and through Yeshua at the Cross of Golgotha, (14 Nisan Passover). If you therefore reject Revelation 15&16 as having been firstly accomplished in Messiah then you essentially reject the only possible atonement which is to come for your own self in your own appointed times, (every true disciple of Yeshua is to "take up his own cross" and become "crucified with Messiah"). The blood that is poured out upon the earth in Revelation 16 is the holy blood which is poured out upon the earth beside the Altar after it has been used inside the Sanctuary for the cleansings of the Yom Kippur ceremonies. It can ONLY be the innocent blood of Messiah and no other blood! Thus Yeshua fulfilled his portion of the ceremonies at Golgotha and what remains is YOUR final cleansing which is, again, to each in his or her own appointed times. Therefore one must first be fully immersed into the water baptism of Yochanan the Immerser and this is what it is, (can it be said anymore plain than this?).

Perhaps you missed the full implications of the following:

Matthew 3:12 KJV
10. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12. Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

If you desire to adhere to what is written then it is necessary for you now to go and find the words of Yochanan the Immerser, (the greatest of all the prophets until Messiah) and be baptized also into that water immersion of the Word. And of course that one comes first, for the Master clearly states the Yochanan the Immerser is Eliyahu, (if you will receive it). And without the first immersion of water the second will not occur.

Scripture interpretation? - Reply#63

Once again you are back to "square one" just as in the thread linked above.
This is not a game; your theology denies the holy Atonement accomplished for you at the Cross of Messiah.
And if you think that Yeshua has not fulfilled the Great Atonement at the Cross then you are the deceived one.

Leviticus 16:17
17. And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.

Revelation 15:5-8
5. And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
6. And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven strokes, arrayed with precious stone, pure and bright, [Revelation 15:6 ASV] and having their breasts girt about with golden girdles.
7. And one of the four living creatures gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the thumos-passion-fury of God, who lives for ever and ever.
8. And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven strokes of the seven angels were fulfilled.

 

[veteran]

This is not to suggest that I defend the major viewpoints of Preterism, (rather what is written) but perhaps you should read Leviticus 16 and other various related passages concerning Yom Kippur and the great Day of Atonement. Revelation 15&16 concern the same Great Day of Atonement which is "rehearsed" at Yom Kippur in the seventh month, (10 Tishri) every year. However, these things were fulfilled first and foremost by and through Yeshua at the Cross of Golgotha, (14 Nisan Passover). If you therefore reject Revelation 15&16 as having been firstly accomplished in Messiah then you essentially reject the only possible atonement which is to come for your own self in your own appointed times, (every true disciple of Yeshua is to "take up his own cross" and become "crucified with Messiah"). The blood that is poured out upon the earth in Revelation 16 is the holy blood which is poured out upon the earth beside the Altar after it has been used inside the Sanctuary for the cleansings of the Yom Kippur ceremonies. It can ONLY be the innocent blood of Messiah and no other blood! Thus Yeshua fulfilled his portion of the ceremonies at Golgotha and what remains is YOUR final cleansing which is, again, to each in his or her own appointed times. Therefore one must first be fully immersed into the water baptism of Yochanan the Immerser and this is what it is, (can it be said anymore plain than this?).

Scripture interpretation? - Reply#63

Once again you are back to "square one" just as in the thread linked above.
This is not a game; your theology denies the holy Atonement accomplished for you at the Cross of Messiah.
And if you think that Yeshua has not fulfilled the Great Atonement at the Cross then you are the deceived one.

Leviticus 16:17
17. And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.

Revelation 15:5-8
5. And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
6. And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven strokes, arrayed with precious stone, pure and bright, [Revelation 15:6 ASV] and having their breasts girt about with golden girdles.
7. And one of the four living creatures gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the thumos-passion-fury of God, who lives for ever and ever.
8. And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven strokes of the seven angels were fulfilled.

JUDAISM at its best folks!!!

Sounds like the Tabernacle Studies folks, which is masked Judaism, i.e., trying to 'philosophically' use the times of the OT feasts and ceremonial practices as a REPLACEMENT for clearly written prophecy about the end of this world and Christ's return.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

The deceived are very good at quoting Scripture in droves to try and drum up support for their belief in falseness.

Apostle John was given Revelation by Christ while in prison on the Isle of Patmos long... after Jerusalem had been destroyed in 70 A.D. by the Romans.

The ONLY reason those on the false Preterist Doctrine of men want to TRY and move that time is so they can ATTEMPT to prove most of our Lord's Book of Revelation is PAST already. Afterall, the meaning of the word Preterist comes from 'preter', meaning 'past.'

veteran,

Who could measure the temple if it had been destroyed?

Rev 11:1

Those historians that claim a later date that 70 AD did not read the book.

 

[daq]

JUDAISM at its best folks!!!

Bless your heart veteran! :lol:

Funny how in this forum what you state is meant as derogatory but I take it as a compliment. Yet at the MJ board where I sometimes frequent I know I will never hear such a compliment! (they eat nephesh of beast as you do and they do not like Zadokite Essenes). :lol:

YHWH Bless your Bread of Life and Living Water and Yeshua write the Name in your forehead brother!

 

[veteran]

Bless your heart veteran! :lol:

Funny how in this forum what you state is meant as derogatory but I take it as a compliment. Yet at the MJ board where I sometimes frequent I know I will never hear such a compliment! :lol:

YHWH Bless your Bread of Life and Living Water and Yeshua write the Name in your forehead brother!

Does that mean you're going to share more of your Tabernacle doctrines of feast timings and OT ceremonial wanderings to try and supplant clearly written prophecy about the end of this world?

First of all, passover was to be held on the FIRST month of Nisan. So it is not related to the 7th month, which is the timing many scholars suggest is the time of Christ's coming (per what you're trying to say).

Secondly, Christ did NOT YET fulfill Rev.15, those events about His servants near Him is for after... His future return to this earth. And your suggestion that I've rejected the Rev.15 & 16 Scripture, which is NOT about what you're talking about anyway, is just you playing around with words.

Rev.16 has NOT happened yet today either.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Does that mean you're going to share more of your Tabernacle doctrines of feast timings and OT ceremonial wanderings to try and supplant clearly written prophecy about the end of this world?


Secondly, Christ did NOT YET fulfill Rev.15, those events about His servants near Him is for after... His future return to this earth. And your suggestion that I've rejected the Rev.15 & 16 Scripture, which is NOT about what you're talking about anyway, is just you playing around with words.

Rev.16 has NOT happened yet today either.

veteran,

Why does your opinion carry more weight than others? I say it has already happened, prove me wrong!

As my Grandmother use to ask the preacher, "Scripture, please"!

 

[veteran]

veteran,

Who could measure the temple if it had been destroyed?

Rev 11:1

Those historians that claim a later date that 70 AD did not read the book.

So, you don't recall in Daniel about the false one that makes a league in Jerusalem and places the abomination idol for false worship? nor Apostle Paul's warning in 2 Thess.2:4 about the false one coming to sit in the temple and play God??? The early Church fathers understood Paul the same way I do about that coming of a specific Antichrist to sit in a temple in Jerusalem prior to Christ's coming. They looked for him in their day, and the Reformers thought they'd found him in the pope in their days, but here we are, it's 2013, and the parameters of that prophecy still has not happened yet.

Our Lord Jesus also warned us about that event of a coming false one and the setting up of an idol inside the "holy place" for all to bow in worship to (Matt.24). He was giving us the signs of the very end there, not signs for 70 A.D. The "abomination of desolation" event did NOT occur in 70 A.D. by the Romans. Instead, per the Jewish historian Josephus, the 2nd temple burned down before the Roman army could get possession of it. Some folk's idea of Roman banner worship in 70 A.D. is just a counter by those on the false Preterist doctrines of men. The placing of the "abomination of desolation" per the Book of Daniel is a very specific event that requires a standing Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and an altar, etc.

Rev 11:1-3
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(KJV)

The temple of God is to mark just which... kind of temple, for there have been many pagan temples in John's era too. That is pointing to a temple in Jerusalem associated with the Jews worshipping in it.

Per that Rev.11 Scripture, the Gentiles are given the outer court only, while others "worship" in that temple. And those Gentiles are given to tread the holy city (Jerusalem) for 42 months. That definitely places this temple here... on earth. So where... is the idea of the destruction of that temple there? No such idea of destruction of a temple is written anywhere in that.

Along with that 42 months timing, God's two witnesses are there given to prophesy for 1260 days. Those two timings are the SAME amount of time. One is given in months (lunar), and the other is given in days (solar). Later in Rev.13 we're told the "dragon" is given to reign for 42 months. That's the same timing schedule.

Also, God's two witnesses are prophesying dressed in sackcloth. That was an Old Testament practice to show shame and mourning, i.e., wearing sackcloth and ashes. That's yet another way we know this temple is on earth. The reason they're mourning is because of this period being the time when the final Antichrist siezes power in Jerusalem, and sets up idol worship inside a temple there, as per our Lord Jesus in Matt.24 about the "abomination of desolation" idol in the "holy place" which He quoted from the Book of Daniel.

Moreover, these events are on the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. And in a later verse we're even told that the beast ascends... from the bottomless pit to kill these two witnesses. And then by the sounding of the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe, all the kingdoms of this world are shown having become the kingdoms of The LORD and of His Christ. So the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing is signaling the "great tribulation" timing. The 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe is signaling the end of the tribulation.

 

[daq]

Does that mean you're going to share more of your Tabernacle doctrines of feast timings and OT ceremonial wanderings to try and supplant clearly written prophecy about the end of this world?

First of all, passover was to be held on the FIRST month of Nisan. So it is not related to the 7th month, which is the timing many scholars suggest is the time of Christ's coming (per what you're trying to say).

Secondly, Christ did NOT YET fulfill Rev.15, those events about His servants near Him is for after... His future return to this earth. And your suggestion that I've rejected the Rev.15 & 16 Scripture, which is NOT about what you're talking about anyway, is just you playing around with words.

Rev.16 has NOT happened yet today either.

If you notice I did not quote the "Tabernacle" portion of your inflammatory comments because I was not speaking toward those comments in my reply. It seems there is someone else around these parts speaking of a "Tabernacle Experience" but he is not me. If you desire to know the true application of the Mishkan Tabernacle you have Moses, the Prophets, and likewise now also the Epistle to the Hebrews: but if you will not hear them perhaps then neither do you believe that one rose from the dead. By the way Leviticus 16 occurred on 14 Nisan which was the same month wherein the Tabernacle was first erected in the second year after the sons of Israel were brought forth out of Egypt. Nadab and Abihu died before the Lord on 14 Nisan, the Passover, and that is when the Most High gave the commandment to Moses for to "rehearse" the Great Day of Atonement in the tenth day of the seventh month; for in that Day, that is to say 14 Nisan, the Great High Priest Yeshua himself would make the Great Atonement, (Leviticus 16:30). If only you would likewise believe Yeshua and Paulos when they state that the man is the house, or temple, then you might also likewise understand that you are the secondary "holy place" or "ohel-mo`ed" which is the tent or Tabernacle of the Congregation, (Leviticus 16:16) which in turn is the same "temple of the Tabernacle of the Testimony" (Revelation 15:5). Do you not recognize that your own current "tent" is like your travel companion, your covering, your body? This is that in the passage below which "remaineth among the children of Israel in the midst of their uncleanness." In the Great Day it will be atoned and your mortal body will then be quickened so as to serve YHWH in Spirit and in Truth.

Leviticus 16:16-17 KJV
16. And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
17. And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.

That portion underlined in the above passage concerns everyone who is a member of the commonwealth of Israel. Yet the final Atonement comes for each in his or her own appointed times, (and a son is born into the Kingdom). The same is the Great Day and Hour which no man knows, not even the angels of heaven; but the Father only, (whether in the body, or whether out of the body, not I know; YHWH knows). But first it must be determined whether or not you have "leprosy" in the walls of your house; and if you do, then it needs to be determined whether your house needs to be completely demolished or not. Hopefully you do not have that "fretting leprosy" of the Girgashite genos-kind which I had; for when a "double legion" gets into your walls there is nothing that can bind that one and the time is short from there. See Leviticus 14:33-57, Zechariah 5:1-4, and Revelation 6:1-17, for truly according to Torah all of the contents inside the house MUST be removed before the Priest comes in to do the final Atonement so that the "contents of the house" be not made unclean, (Leviticus14:36). No man is allowed inside HIS OWN HOUSE while the ceremony is performed, (Leviticus 16:17 quoted herein once more). I believe you and your modern shepherd teachers call it the Rapture, which is correct, except for the fact that your carcass-house will not be going up with your soul to stand upon a Molten Sea of glass having been mingled with baptismal fire. Therefore heed the commandment and rehearse that Great Day of Atonement by AFFLICTING your own soul; for there is no greater tribulation than that time, nor shall there ever be. If indeed you overcome in your hour of trial then surely you will know what things I speak of from the Scripture herein; but for now you are correct in that Revelation 16 has not yet happened, for you.

 

[veteran]

Oh, I don't deny the OT timings as written, I deny your attempted application of them in relation to events for the end of this world (like your statement inferring that Rev.16 has already happened for some).

What Jesus fulfilled concerning the passover timing was His sacrifice upon the cross. Those who believe on Him don't need... another fulfillment of that, for He only had to die on the cross ONCE.

As for cleaning house, Christ Jesus does that already for those who believe on Him and heed His commandments.

I also understand the idea of Christ's Body representing foundation stones of a spiritual temple. But His Apostles never tried to take that as far as you've been wrongly taught to do under Judaism's influence within the Messianics.

Sounds just like the "Tabernacle Studies". And those are not in relation to the ones you speak of on this forum. Those studies are in printed form, and is a type of mysticism being thrown around by some today, using the OT tabernacle and feasts as a type 'Bible Codes' tool instead just simply reading and heeding the prophecies for the end which Christ and His Apostles put in PLAIN SPEECH per The New Testament Books.

That stuff causes those in it to act just like those trapped in Mysticism act. They act as if only THEY know the times and the seasons, thinking by holding to those OT timings everything for the end is going play out in relation to them. It's a type of 'elitist' Jewish thinking (like we're the only ones that know the truth because... we're Jewish).

 

[daq]

Oh, I don't deny the OT timings as written, I deny your attempted application of them in relation to events for the end of this world (like your statement inferring that Rev.16 has already happened for some).

What Jesus fulfilled concerning the passover timing was His sacrifice upon the cross. Those who believe on Him don't need... another fulfillment of that, for He only had to die on the cross ONCE.

Again, if you deny that Yeshua fulfilled his part in your Atonement at Golgotha then you basically deny the fact that the Son of God has come in the flesh because it is only his innocent blood which is acceptable for the Atonement, (a man can only give his flesh and blood once). The portion which is not yet fulfilled is the part where your scapegoat comes back with seven other spirits more wicked than himself and you let him back into your house despite all the Scripture warnings. And since that one is not yet dead you will have a problem that only the High Priest after the order of Melchizedek can bring to a head, and thus make the final Atonement for you, (again, that is, if indeed you overcome in your hour and are not already a twice dead castaway fish). As far as the rest of what you have thrown into your cocktail of poisonous rhetoric, (which again I did not quote) none of it really applies to myself so no thanks.

 

[veteran]

You mean if I deny what YOU say? that Rev.16 is already history for SOME today? Yeah, I deny that idea totally.

But what is your stupid statements about saying I deny my Lord Jesus Christ you white-washed wall?!*!?

Like I said, and like God's Word says, Christ doesn't need to DIE a second time to save those who believe on Him as God's Promised Saviour.

Nor do I need to be baptized again in His Name.

So just WHAT ritual requirement is LEFT to follow then? NONE! except staying true to Him and WAITING for His coming!

This is why Jesus fulfilled ALL... the commandments in ordinances according to Apostle Paul in Col.2.

But what those you're listening to is like a requirement of dependance upon those very 'ordinances' for your Salvation, instead of Jesus Christ directly!

 

[daq]

You mean if I deny what YOU say? that Rev.16 is already history for SOME today? Yeah, I deny that idea totally.

But what is your stupid statements about saying I deny my Lord Jesus Christ you white-washed wall?!*!?

Like I said, and like God's Word says, Christ doesn't need to DIE a second time to save those who believe on Him as God's Promised Saviour.

Nor do I need to be baptized again in His Name.

So just WHAT ritual requirement is LEFT to follow then? NONE! except staying true to Him and WAITING for His coming!

This is why Jesus fulfilled ALL... the commandments in ordinances according to Apostle Paul in Col.2.

But what those you're listening to is like a requirement of dependance upon those very 'ordinances' for your Salvation, instead of Jesus Christ directly!

You pour over the Scriptures searching for one line statements that will support your doctrinal hypothesis. When you find what you need you rip it from its context and place it into the scenario which you and the modern shepherd paperback prophets have concocted in your mind. And wallabalahala suddenly you are right, and righteously right at that, and everyone else left over behind your path of destruction not entering the kingdom in time will be destroyed for their unbelief; and the only real difference is timing because you happened to make it in at the end of your final fantasy generation and they did not. That is not what it means to be immersed into the washing of water into the word. And until you are willing to silence your old man, cut him off from your midst, destroy all of his cherished idol images of yourself, and allow yourself to be fully immersed into the Word; you will remain outside the gate, groping in outer darkness, and gnashing your teeth at those who pass you by on their way into the holy city of above. It is not about taking the Scripture and making it fit yourself but rather immersing yourself into the River of Life and allowing him to take you withersoever he goeth, (the full 4000 cubits where it cannot be crossed by a man yet he enters faithfully and goes with the flow of the Master). If you fancy yourself "baptized into His Name" then you do not even understand what a name is. So far your name with me is Sardis, dead, but see that does not mean to me that we are not brethren, nor that I should try to cut you off as you try to do with me by attaching your various labels, (turn about is fair play, dear Sardis) you cut off your own self well enough because you refuse to cut off the one who separates you from the Father.

 

[ENOCH2010]

daq are you a gnostic

 

[daq]

daq are you a gnostic

Always has to be personal eh? Do you understand that the Gnostic have a belief that Hashem of the Old Covenant is what they call the Demiurge? According to them, (mainly from the Apocryphon of John which is blasphemy) they say that the God of the Old Testament did in fact create all physical things but that he was an angry and self absorbed vengeful god of the flesh and all things physical. It is not that they believe he is not real but that they believe he is the enemy. The same Gnostic teachers profess primarily the "Canon of Marcion" (Google it) which consisted only of the Gospel of Luke and the Epistles of Paul, (with all of the Old Covenant quotes clipped out of the Pauline Epistles of course).

Who then is more like the Gnostic heresy out of those assembled here in this forum? Should it be myself who accepts both Testaments of Scripture as the holy Word or is it those who reject most of what is written when they say that Torah is "abolished" and the Words of the Master before the Cross were not written to them? Some here in the theology boards even confess that the Epistle to the Hebrews should not be studied in depth unless one is a Jew because it was written to the Jews to bring them out of the Old Covenant, (another heresy) and James was only addressed to the Twelve Tribes so it likewise is not written to them. It is not myself who is the Gnostic here, (nice try at another label though). If you ask this question in all seriousness then do some serious research into what a true Gnostic belief system encompasses and you might then begin to see the many similarities which abound in many of the postings and teachings of other renowned men of a name who are considered upright citizens of the kingdom right here in these and many other Christian forum boards. I accept and live all of the Scripture according to the Testimony and interpretations of the Master Yeshua, walking according to the Spirit of Torah and the Word as even Paulos preaches, every word which proceeds from the mouth of God to the best of my God given abilities, (we can do all things through Messiah who strengthens us). I do not reject anything from the Lamb that is set before me as spiritual food to be eaten.

 

[ENOCH2010]

Always has to be personal eh? Do you understand that the Gnostic have a belief that Hashem of the Old Covenant is what they call the Demiurge? According to them, (mainly from the Apocryphon of John which is blasphemy) they say that the God of the Old Testament did in fact create all physical things but that he was an angry and self absorbed vengeful god of the flesh and all things physical. It is not that they believe he is not real but that they believe he is the enemy. The same Gnostic teachers profess primarily the "Canon of Marcion" (Google it) which consisted only of the Gospel of Luke and the Epistles of Paul, (with all of the Old Covenant quotes clipped out of the Pauline Epistles of course).

Who then is more like the Gnostic heresy out of those assembled here in this forum? Should it be myself who accepts both Testaments of Scripture as the holy Word or is it those who reject most of what is written when they say that Torah is "abolished" and the Words of the Master before the Cross were not written to them? Some here in the theology boards even confess that the Epistle to the Hebrews should not be studied in depth unless one is a Jew because it was written to the Jews to bring them out of the Old Covenant, (another heresy) and James was only addressed to the Twelve Tribes so it likewise is not written to them. It is not myself who is the Gnostic here, (nice try at another label though). If you ask this question in all seriousness then do some serious research into what a true Gnostic belief system encompasses and you might then begin to see the many similarities which abound in many of the postings and teachings of other renowned men of a name who are considered upright citizens of the kingdom right here in these and many other Christian forum boards. I accept and live all of the Scripture according to the Testimony and interpretations of the Master Yeshua, walking according to the Spirit of Torah and the Word as even Paulos preaches, every word which proceeds from the mouth of God to the best of my God given abilities, (we can do all things through Messiah who strengthens us). I do not reject anything from the Lamb that is set before me as spiritual food to be eaten.

My question wasn't meant as an insult daq, I just have a hard time following your posts. You seem to spiritualize everything written in the Word. When one spiritualizes as much scripture as you do, where dose it stop, can anything in the Bible be taken to some spiritual end to match any doctrine they want.

 

[daq]

My question wasn't meant as an insult daq, I just have a hard time following your posts. You seem to spiritualize everything written in the Word. When one spiritualizes as much scripture as you do, where dose it stop, can anything in the Bible be taken to some spiritual end to match any doctrine they want.

That is not true but rather reveals that those who see everything literal, physical, and according to the eyes and mind of the flesh are not willing to do their own home work and follow the Lamb withersoever he goes. Every physical term given in the Scripture has its own supernal and spiritual counterpart and that is exactly the reason why the Scripture is written the way that it is. What we have before us in holy writ is a holy Father speaking to his carnal and fallen creation out of love. The Father is Spirit and those that worship him must worship him in Spirit and in Truth. If you take the carnal route you will end up just as the Pharisees, Sadducs, and Scribes, with their mindsets clearly recorded in the Gospel accounts. Yeshua likewise states that the words he speaks are Spirit and they are Life; the flesh profits NOTHING. If one does not abide in his words then neither will he understand any of those who penned anything in the New Covenant writings including Paul, (whom they love to preach, and him only, because his words are difficult to comprehend if one does not already have the foundation of Yeshua delivered in the Gospel accounts). All of the New Covenant authors abide in the Word and Doctrine of Yeshua. Every true disciple of Yeshua will be for the most part in agreement and be as one, (and we are) because we do not engage in private interpretation as the fleshmongers like to suggest so as to take the blame away from themselves for their laziness and Torahlessness. Just because you disagree does not mean that my understanding is a private interpretation especially when you ignore half of the Scripture and the Revelation of Yeshua itself as having anything to do with yourself. When the modern shepherds exclude the Old Covenant and likewise proclaim that the Revelation concerns events which are to unfold upon the unbelieving world of the future they have basically carved out a separate "age of grace" for themselves, (some of the Preterists do the same but only their timing is different for the start of their "age"). The truth is that the carnal man does not desire full immersion into the Word and therefore stays by the edge of the Waters of Life, at the shoreline, where the level is only ankle deep, (Ezekiel 47:3) so that he be not swept away by the River of Truth, (and so that he might maintain his own doctrines and control over the doctrines of his fathers). The same who do such things not only fail to enter into the Kingdom themselves, out of fear of the Waters of Life, but likewise they do everything they can to stop anyone else from entering into the River by remaining at the shoreline, muddying the waters for the rest, and hindering anyone who might enter into the deeper portions of the walk in Messiah whether it takes slander, defamation of character, or any of the many other various ways to murder from the heart.

Acts 24:14-15
14. But this I confess unto thee, that after the Way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15. And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Paul believed ALL THINGS having been written in Torah and Prophets and likewise do I.

1 Corinthians 9:7-10 KJV
7. Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8. Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9. For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10. Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Deuteronomy 25:4 KJV
4. Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.

Does God take care for oxen? Or does he say it altogether for our sakes?
For our sakes no doubt Deuteronomy 25:4 is written. And a man is therefore likened to a bullock or an ox.
If therefore this is written to us then what other pearls of great value might be hidden in the treasure trove of Torah?

Now I ask you: Is Torah written for you or are you an Gnostic as was Marcion?