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Revelation was written during Nero's reign before 70AD

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by AServantofJC, May 24, 2013.

  1. AServantofJC

    AServantofJC New Member

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    Hi all,

    Firstly, I apologize for my poor grammatical styles when I have written as I have done in this thread, but for this season these are my best-efforts, as I always strive to do. I noticed that others also sometimes blog with difficult and lengthy sentences, but in the end I hope it does not seriously deter the learning I hope we can all accomplish as we all make these efforts to learn from one another, as the Bereans learned from Paul. :)

    Secondly, thanks for your comments Rex that were enlightening and hopeful to me, :) and I also thank you too Veteran for elaborating on your “present” views. :)

    Veteran, my last comment #56 was because I concluded that your own personal faith in what our Holy God is working to accomplish in the world through apocalyptic scripture was similar to my own faith when you wrote that:

    Seems you're struggling with that Greek word and usage, but I don't know why. All that 1Cor.13:8 Scripture is saying is that even prophecy will eventually lose it's purpose once the event happens, or passes away in history. (Not all prophecy, but the majority of prophecies). It's translated in other places in the KJV as "of none effect", 'abolished', 'I put away', 'come to nought', 'without effect', etc.

    It just means, it's over when it's over.


    Even though with our present levels of knowledge nowadays we all may oftentimes see through a glass darkly (*a), and so we may presently disagree on various points of scriptural interpretation concerning the-whole-truth that will eventually be revealed in regards to our Shekhinah God's ongoing tireless-efforts and eternal-vision for us “all”, yet I pray that everyone will eventually agree that our Father God will always be sovereign while immeasurably-merciful with His ongoing choices, of overseeing a culture's chastening(s) in order to more righteously and justly fulfill His eternal vision for us “all” via the tireless and sacrificial efforts of His Holy Angels, (*d) while at the same time also showing mercy during a particular era to some cultures, as He did with the Hebrews' Exodus from Egypt.

    His eternal vision is tirelessly being accomplished so that “all” of His children, red and yellow black and white, might be “taught” via the sacrifices of His Holy Angels, and - or via His gracious mercy through His Holy Spirit our Comforter, concerning “why” it is in their best interests to continually reprove another “family” member or “neighbor” to repent whenever anyone subtly slips towards unrighteousness or overt sin as taught in Leviticus 19:17-18. And via His heavenly host we are all maturing into a better understanding of the peer-pressure ripple-effect consequences of those errs. Lest for an extended period some would continually choose the self-destructive pleasures of their errs, in lieu of the eternal joy and happiness of abiding in God's righteousness, which ultimately at the end of the age could cause some to be “left-behind” whenever a nova-blast sterilization-event (+) will occur to the earth. (*b ) [Hebrews & Revelation 21]

    [Note (+): I would encourage some Berean type converts to ponder the validity of the ageless efforts of the Heavenly Host, via a more thorough understanding of “Old Earth Creationism”, in order to better comprehend the ageless vision that has always been within our Father God's heart and soul for “us-all”, from long before the foundation of the world, since these cataclysmic “remodeling” events have historically occurred many times in the past, as evidenced by the earth's “index-fossil” records, which for many Berean disciples this knowledge has convinced them of earth's super-ancient history.]

    And IF our Creator God should ever sovereignly decide to “allow” the devil Beelzebub, [i.e. the quasi-powerless lord of the flies (*c)], to fulfill various apocalyptic prophecies via an extreme-worst-case “literal” interpretation of various doctrines-of-men, (simply because no-one, or too few, sought for Jesus' wisdom, courage and strength to become Holy in order to stand in the gap for their culture), then this is His sovereign decision in order that He might be glorified in the earth as best as His sacrificially-holy heavenly-host could accomplish during a future tribulating season of “chastening-judgment.” Howbeit we should be encouraged that these “judgments” would simultaneously “always” fulfill the “encouraging” prophecies within Romans 14:11 and James 2:13 and 1 John 3:8 and John 3:17, so that our Heavenly Father's mercy will ultimately triumph over all chastening judgments that were sacrificially done in the best interests of His prodigal creation.

    From a review of history, our Father God's righteous and perfectly-just chastening judgments have always inevitably occurred whenever far-far too many of His prodigal children continued-to-remain non-empathetic and hardhearted towards His sacrificial and Holy efforts, and the sufferings of many who have been enslaved by the devil-Beelzebub, and would then remain faithless and spiritually-indolent or even Laodicean.

    Nonetheless scripture is plain that our Father God will continue to work with “us-all” in His prodigal creation, until “we-all” would become unchangeably “mature” concerning our “love” for others, in a similar way as our Christ Jesus and His Heavenly Father are unchangeably “mature” in their “love” for us. (*b ) [Leviticus 19:17-18]

    The primary reason for this post is that these straightforward views concerning our Heavenly Father's efforts in our behalf were powerfully enlightened to me several seasons ago after I downloaded and pondered the attached picture “New Jerusalem For The Saints .gif”, which has subsequently prompted a maturing-season within my heart and soul since then. So I have been en-couraged to re-post that picture here today, with the hope that perhaps it will similarly promote a maturing season or a conversion or a re-conversion in some others who would see it and would “ponder” its potential-validity.

    Thank you everyone for your posts. They will eventually be helpful to everyone who might someday read this thread.

    Shalom in Jesus,
    A Servant of Jesus Christ

    John 10&15&17 & Revelation 21 & John 16:13-14 & John 8:31-32

    John 16:13-14 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for He shall receive of me, and shall shew it unto you.

    John 8:31-32 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”



    Scripture references in the text:

    Leviticus 19:17-18 Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt. Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.

    Romans 14:11 For it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall give praise to God.”

    James 2:13 Because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful, (howbeit) mercy triumphs over judgment.

    1 John 3:8 The person who lives a sinful life is enslaved to the devil, because the devil has been committing sin since the beginning. The reason that the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works the devil does.

    John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.


    {<>Note (*a): 1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. <>}




    {<>Note (*b ) given below: (Romans 2:13-15; Matthew 16:18; Romans 14:11; Matthew 12:40; 1Peter 3:18-20; Ephesians 4:1-16)<>}


    Romans 2:13-15 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

    Matthew 16:18 And upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

    Matthew 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    1Peter 3:18-20 But quickened by the Spirit: by which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    Ephesians 4:1-16:: 1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2 with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 till weall come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 but speaking the truth in love , may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.





    {<>Note (*c) given below: (Matthew 28:18; Matthew 12:24; Luke 11:15; John 15:1-17)<>}


    Matthew 28:18-20 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

    Matthew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”

    Luke 11:15 But some of them said, “He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.”

    John 15:1-17: 1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.





    {<>Note (*d) given below: 1Peter 3:19 & 2Peter 2:4 & Jude 1:6<>}


    1 Peter 3:19-20 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.

    Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.




    ((-:<> Sidenote: Preparing the four soils in Matthew 13:1-23 & Mark 4:1-20 & Luke 8:1-15 for Jesus' soon return will be what was used to righteously and justly sift and sort-out Jesus' future bride as prophesied in Matthew 24:27-28 & Luke 17:24-37. Many of the first will be last and the last first. Revelation 21 <>:))


    Matthew 24:27-28 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

    Luke 17:24-37: 24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. 25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. 26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 but the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.



    PS any further "edifying", "wholesome" and helpful comments anyone?



    PPS

    Hi again all,

    I thought I would continue with some further thoughts during this effort today that would expand on what I posted moments ago.

    My own faith as the Berean type of convert that I am, (which is also the faith of many other “Luke 22:32_KJV” types of “converts” that I know), is that Revelation 9:15 which prophecies that “1/3_rd of mankind will be destroyed” will have obviously failed – katargeo, whenever Jesus' Church “matures” enough to not “need” this particular apocalyptic-judgment-prophecy anymore.

    Since from the first day that Revelation 9:15 was published and circulated to the earliest converts and re-converts, in our Father God's wisdom it was obviously “needed” to en-courage many of Jesus' joint-heir ambassadors to strive to obey the Lord continually with “all” of their heart and “all” of their mind on a daily basis, in order to continually discern and choose good choices over somewhat evil choices, and to discern the Holy Spirit's warfare against the-devil Beelzebub within their own life-efforts and also within their culture. And so these joint-heir ambassadors would then be willing to be continually trained, sifted and chastened to stand-in-the-gap for their various cultures, in order to totally prevent or to minimize many judgment prophecies from being fulfilled via the-devil who is always working to accomplish the worst-case concerning all doctrines-of-men. [Isaiah 29:13-14] By oftentimes using those same prophecies to seduce un-converted souls, as he had similarly accomplished with the Apostle Paul before his conversion, whenever the-devil seduced him concerning our Shekhinah Father God's immeasurable goodness by using various Old Testament scriptures and myths legends and fables that were circulated in Paul's day. So we are now taught by Paul and others to rightly divide the scriptures lest we would be eternally ashamed, and to not become seduced by cunningly devised Jewish fables. [Titus 1:14-16]

    And these apocalyptic judgment prophecies were also needed to “compel” His joint-heirs to rise-up and teach a good-news gospel version of the fulfillment of these apocalyptic prophecies, that would impart “faith” “love” “hope” and “strengthening-encouragement” (*a) by NOT including a “fatalisticand therefore self-fulfilling view of inevitable massive death and destruction throughout our world. Years ago during a substantial crisis-time for our nation, immediately before he was chosen to become vice-president, Mr. Al Gore was “discerning” and also very courageous to mention this “self-fulfilling” paradigm concerning apocalyptic doctrines-of-men in his book, “The Earth in the Balance.” Which since then has compelled many new converts over the years to be willing to give their lives if that is what might occur to make a difference, and to stand-in-the-gap for their nation so that Jesus' Kingdom would be built-up within it.

    This “mature” message of good-news within the apocalyptic scriptures “faithfully” “trusts” in the “sovereignty” of our merciful Father God of love and peace, [2Corinthians 13:11] to continually make the choices to send-forth much-more of His Spirit to enlighten and empower His converted Saints, [Luke 11:13] so they could effectively work to stand-in-the-gap in order to preclude the-devil's worst-case most literal fulfillment concerning all the apocalyptic “judgment” scriptures.

    Some Berean type disciples have recognized that Our Father God has also trained many converts within Iran who are continually sacrificing their own lives to sway many of their countrymen to change their present view that the apocalyptic scriptures “must-be” fulfilled in their literal worst-case interpretation, prior to the Messiah, (Isa), the virgin born Jesus of Nazareth, returning in the air as the New Testament prophecies will someday occur. “Most” Muslims have this same “fatalistic” view as “most” American “evangelicals”, while they also similarly believe that our Jesus, (Isa), will enforce His Kingdom of justice and peace throughout the world after His glory and power will be revealed in the air someday.

    At the end of this age within every culture the “Holy” prophecy of a “Holy” “converted” James will someday be fulfilled concerning all the apocalyptic prophecies, to the shame of a few hardened souls, but ultimately for our Eternal Father God to be greatly glorified as James wrote: “Judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful, (howbeit) mercy will triumph over judgment.” [James 2:13]

    Thank you everyone for your posts. They will eventually be helpful to everyone who might someday read this thread.

    Shalom in Jesus,
    A Servant of Jesus Christ

    John 10&15&17 & Revelation 21 & John 16:13-14 & John 8:31-32

    John 16:13-14 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for He shall receive of me, and shall shew it unto you.

    John 8:31-32 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”


    [<>Note (*a): Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.<>]


    Isaiah 29:13-14 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

    Titus 1:14-16 Not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men that turn from the truth. To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

    Luke 11:13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

    James 2:13 Because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful, (howbeit) mercy triumphs over judgment.


    PPPS any further "edifying", "wholesome" and helpful comments anyone?
     

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  2. day

    day New Member

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    People with theories to support do also.

    I was taught many many years ago, and still hold to the idea, that prophecy has a near and a far fulfillment.

    For example, the sign that a virgin would bear a son and call his name Emmanuel given by Isaiah to King Ahaz of Judah when he was afraid of attack by Syria and Northern Israel would be pointless unless it applied to something the king could verify in his own time. Basically Isaiah was telling King Ahaz that in the time it took a virgin to be betrothed, married, have a child who would be old enough to eat curds and honey, the kingdoms he was afraid of would be wiped out by Assyria. That was the fulfillment for his time, but "in the fullness of time" was a fulfillment beyond anything they could have imagined. But the fact that God fulfilled his word in the local circumstance builds our faith to believe the greater mystery.

    In the case of the Book of Revelation, I think it was written before the fall of Jerusalem, and the near fulfillment gives us reason to have confidence in the "fullness of time" applications to end time events. It also helps us to know how to interpret symbolic language, because we can see what God meant by it on a smaller scale.

    Again, another example. Jesus coming on the clouds of heaven and those who pierced him seeing it, was fulfilled by Jesus coming in judgment against Israel from the right hand of God (place of power). God used various nations such as Babylon to punish Israel with destruction for disobedience to his word, Jesus acting in the power of God used Rome. I have read some end time scenarios that seem to have Jesus returning twice. Might not one be in judgment and the other in person?

    A little side point. The two greatest prophets/teachers the church has known were Peter and Paul. They died a short time apart in Rome. Paul had said that to die was to be with Christ (Come up here?). Peter the Apostle to the Jews, Paul to the Gentiles. Perhaps a local fulfillment setting the pattern for later fuller events, like Enoch (gentile) and Elijah (Jew), or Gentile believers and Jewish believers' last message rejected by the world

    What I do not agree with is the idea that it happened already so we don't need to concern ourselves with it. That was only the warm-up, take warning.
     
  3. AServantofJC

    AServantofJC New Member

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    Hi all,

    <>
    “day” wrote: . . . What I do not agree with is the idea that it happened already so we don't need to concern ourselves with it. That was only the warm-up, take warning.
    <>

    I sincerely thank you “day” for your insights that should encourage us to be the best ambassadors for Jesus' Kingdom that we might be trained to become. We are all learning and growing “in the grace and knowledge of the Lord” and need good mentor-teachers along the way, so I thank you for your efforts in my/our behalf. [2 Peter 3:18]

    Let us all pray that during this perilous generation many-many more Christians will have matured enough to fulfill 1Corinthians 13:8 and James 2:13b to the “uttermost” possible, in order that Revelation 9:15 would not be “allowed” by God's Saints to be fulfilled in a similar way as other idolatrous and spiritually indolent cultures have previously allowed to occur throughout history. [Hebrews 3; Ezekiel 22:30; Ephesians 4:30; Psalm 111:10 & Proverbs 1:7 & 9:10]

    This is my prayer for these efforts which comforts me to have been en-couraged with a non-fatalistic hope and faith and faithfulness that our culture could and “should” eventually become a shining light on a hill for “all” to see, which is a greatly more fruitful and glorifying vision than I had the faith for several seasons ago. [John 15:8 and Proverbs 29:18 and Hosea 4:6]

    My own testimony [+] is that after I had become “converted” for the first time many seasons ago, [*] several seasons afterward I “settled-upon” a “non-universalist” view of how the apocalyptic judgment prophecies such as Revelation 9:15 “possibly-might” eventually all be fulfilled “literally”, with no ambiguities that they had not been fulfilled to the uttermost. And therefore would not ever be left open for debate for the devil to seduce some leaders to promote them to be fulfilled again, as so many unfaithful and spiritually indolent cultures have sometimes been seduced by the-devil-Beelzebub to “allow” to occur, such as with all the prophecies of Daniel that were fulfilled concerning Jerusalem in 70 AD, and possibly towards Damascus etc, which are similar to Mr. Gore's concerns that were voiced in my previous post.

    So at that previous time I recognized that “possibly” as a result of our merciful God's future sacrificial efforts to reconcile “all” of His prodigals back to himself, that if “men” or “mankind” [++] would be able to be allowed to eventually apply to only three unrepentant hateful “persons”, [**] then all the “apocalyptic-judgment” prophecies could be literally fulfilled whenever two of these three unrepentant persons would have perished in order to “literally” fulfill Revelation 19:20 and Revelation 9:15, and afterwards the third would have perished in order to “literally” fulfill Revelation 20:10, Ezekiel 28:12-19, Isaiah 14:16 and 1 John 3:8, whenever the-devil-Beelzebub would have been utterly annihilated and eventually remembered no more. [+: Revelation 12:11][*: Luke 22:32 & John 21:19] [**: Matthew 6:15 & 18:35 and Mark 11:26] [++: Note that “Men” in the original Greek is anthropos, and within the contexts of all of John's writings whenever this word was used it was not used when referring to a “child-of-God”.]

    Since that time my views have matured when I was enlightened to the significance of Colossians 1:20. After which I saw that from before the foundation of this world, and long before Adam and Eve were sent to be missionary-ambassadors into our Father God's fallen world to reconcile “all” in His creation back to Himself, Jesus committed himself to give-up His terrestrial body on the cross as a sacrifice for “all” of God's prodigals, in order that “all” would “possibly” eventually be willing to be reconciled to each other and also back to our Father God in Heaven as a result of His sacrifice before the next sterilization event would occur to this planet. And all that was required to escape that future holocaust was to yield ones being to continually obey the simple two laws of love mentioned in Leviticus 19:17-18 and Deuteronomy 6:5. [Leviticus 16:7, Matthew 19:30, Matthew 20:16, Mark 10:31, Luke 13:30]

    I have subsequently recognized via 1Corinthians 13:8 that in God's sovereignty He can choose any prophecies-of-men to “fail” (i.e. katargeo) “if” in His wisdom that would glorify Him in a greater way than bringing judgment upon sin for our hard-hearts and stiff-necks and evil and perverse ways. In my view, since we do not fight with flesh and blood but ultimately with a rebellious spiritual realm led by the-devil-Beelzebub, scripture teaches in James 2:13 that “mercy will triumph over judgment” for our culture and the entire world only-when more disciples would “mature” in their good-news-gospel messages, and would then obey the Golden Rule and not condone slanders of God's eternal vision for us “all,” and thereby would unwittingly also slander His eternal nature and His eternal sacrificial efforts in our behalf; and or also slander His “quickened” celestial angels in spite of their difficult assignments to sift and chasten our Father God's leaders-in-training, similar to what was needful for Job in order for his family to one day become a righteous eternal inheritance laid up for Him in Heaven whenever he would see Jesus on His final day. [*a]

    It is also my view that God will be glorified in our generation sooner rather than latter whenever God's leaders-in-training would soon begin to better understand the need for their being sifted and chastened via the spiritual realm, and would more willingly become spiritually mature as a result of that “training,” as what occurred with Job, whereby afterwards his more intimate “relationship” with God doubled his “eternal” inheritance as a result. It is also my view that as leaders-in-training would be more willing to be sifted and chastened, they would then improve upon their holy- service and their gracious and respectful love for “all” others, so that Jesus' spotless bride would have soon made herself ready and He could soon reveal His awesome power and glory in the clouds, and a massive loss of life via the wiles of the devil would NOT be the result of His soon appearing. Slandering God or also His chastening angels is what I was taught NOT to do via 2Peter 2:10 and Jude 1:8. [*b]

    So at one time I recognized that if I did not learn form my own beneficial chastenings and tribulations, I would have continued to slander our Father God “if” I continued to promote my earlier more immature “non-universalist” view of a “literal” fulfillment of all the apocalyptic judgment scriptures, that did not include the “possibility” that because of our Father God's sovereign choices Colossians 1:20 “might” “eventually” be fulfilled to the uttermost, whereby when the scripture say “all” it could truly mean “all”, “if” “everyone” would eventually become willing to repent and obey God's simple laws of love towards Him and all others.

    So as a result of my own tribulations I learned that a “literal” fulfillment of all the judgment prophecies would eventually no longer be “needed” whenever 1Corinthians 13:8 will have occurred and prophecies will have katargeo-failed, “if” repentance and obedience and love for God and “all” others would begin to occur in a greater way in the world, so that God's simple laws of love and righteousness would have begun to be written on the hearts of “all” of God's prodigal children. Similar to how Nineveh had repented after Jonah's prophetic warnings of impending judgment by others “if” they had not repented of their evil ways. Whatever will occur during our generation we are promised that someday “the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.” [Habakkuk 2:14] [*a: Proverbs 29:18 and Hosea 4:6 and Ephesians 4:30 and Psalm 111:10 and Proverbs 1:7 & 9:10] [* b : 1 Corinthians 15:40]

    As a result of these efforts I hope that eventually some disciple(s) would be en-couraged that all the scriptures were written by “obviously” fallible-men, [* c] and therefore will ultimately be recognized by everyone to have included many doctrines-of-men as tares in order that we “all” could be chastened, sifted and “taught” to seek God's wisdom continually and to “rightly-divide” the good from the evil within any man's teachings, lest some would be “ashamed” on their final-day when they would see the Lord; and when they would have finally recognized for the first time through His eyes all of of the love He has eternally poured into us “all” and all of His sacrificial and holy efforts in our behalf from eternity past, and that He has always sacrificially worked in His Father's behalf to prevent or to minimize any chastening-judgments, that throughout the ages the-devil-Beelzebub has manipulated many souls to promote to occur. [* c: Matthew 11:11] [Revelation 1:14, Luke 15:31, Leviticus 16:10, Genesis 4:13-16, 2Timothy 2:15 & 3:16-17]

    Thank you everyone for your posts. They will eventually be helpful to everyone who might someday read this thread.

    Shalom in Jesus,
    A Servant of Jesus Christ

    AJCServant

    PS
    John 10&15&17 & Revelation 21 & John 16:13-14 & John 8:31-32

    John 16:13-14 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for He shall receive of me, and shall shew it unto you.

    John 8:31-32 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

    James 2:13 Because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful, (howbeit) mercy triumphs over judgment.


    PPS - Any further "edifying", "wholesome" and helpful comments anyone?
     
  4. iamlamad

    iamlamad New Member

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    READERS BEWARE!

    NOTE CAREFULLY:

    all the scriptures were written by “obviously” fallible-men, [* c] and therefore will ultimately be recognized by everyone to have included many doctrines-of-men

    Now compare with:

    2 Timothy 3:16
    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    Servant, could you give us a summary, maybe one or two sentences of your post?

    Lamad
     
  5. AServantofJC

    AServantofJC New Member

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    Hi all,

    <>
    “iamlamad” wrote:

    READERS BEWARE!
    NOTE CAREFULLY:

    all the scriptures were written by “obviously” fallible-men, [* c] and therefore will ultimately be recognized by everyone to have included many doctrines-of-men

    Now compare with:

    2 Timothy 3:16
    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    Servant, could you give us a summary, maybe one or two sentences of your post?

    Lamad
    <>


    I truly thank you “iamlamad” for pointing out your need for me to better explain an extrapolation that I made concerning what I saw must be implied from the following three scriptures and all the other “encouragements” in the Holy scriptures to rightly-divide them with one's best efforts from a good heart of love towards all, lest one would be ashamed on their final day when they would see they had rarely built up an eternal inheritance for Jesus with their misguided efforts, and therefore had rarely built up an eternal inheritance for themselves as a result, since the gospel of Jesus' Kingdom and His simple laws of love are rarely mentored by a misguided teacher who is hard-hearted and stiff-necked, as I know I used to be, but I pray I have “now” learned some difficult lessons that is turning me back to following Jesus as I know I was born here to do. [(-:]<><>


    There are several key scriptures that I extrapolated to become my present views within this blog of which three are below and three others are again given in the PS below:


    2 Timothy 3:16-17 All (Holy) scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may become perfect (mature), thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

    2 Timothy 2:15-16 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness. (ESV) (KJV) 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

    Isaiah 29:13-14 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the doctrines-of-men: therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.



    So to now answer your request for a summary statement of my previous post, in my view it was best said as follows:



    As a result of these efforts I hope that eventually some disciple(s) would be en-couraged that all the scriptures were written by “obviously” fallible-men, [* c] and therefore will ultimately be recognized by everyone to have included many doctrines-of-men as tares in order that we “all” could be chastened, sifted and “taught” to seek God's wisdom continually and to “rightly-divide” the good from the evil within any man's teachings, lest some would be “ashamed” on their final-day when they would see the Lord; and when they would have finally recognized for the first time through His eyes all of the love He has eternally poured into us “all” and all of His sacrificial and holy efforts in our behalf from eternity past, and that He has always sacrificially worked in His Father's behalf to prevent or to minimize any chastening-judgments, that throughout the ages the-devil-Beelzebub has manipulated many souls to promote to occur. [* c: Matthew 11:11] [Revelation 1:14, Luke 15:31, Leviticus 16:10, Genesis 4:13-16, 2Timothy 2:15 & 3:16-17]


    Thanks again “iamlamad”, we are all learning and growing “in the grace and knowledge of the Lord” and need good mentor-teachers along the way, so I thank you for your efforts in my/our behalf. [2 Peter 3:18]

    And thank you everyone for your posts. They will eventually be helpful to everyone else who might someday read this thread.

    Shalom in Jesus,
    A Servant of Jesus Christ

    AJCServant

    PS
    John 10&15&17 & Revelation 21

    John 16:13-14 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for He shall receive of me, and shall shew it unto you.

    John 8:31-32 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

    James 2:13 Because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful, (howbeit) mercy triumphs over judgment.


    PPS - Any further "edifying", "wholesome" and helpful comments anyone?
     
  6. Pilgrimer

    Pilgrimer Member

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    The internal evidence of The Revelation is that it was written before 70 A.D. as it foretells the destruction of the Temple in 11:1 and the occupation of Jerusalem by Rome in 11:2.

    But I would ask you to reconsider the numbering of the emperors. The count began with the first emperor to rise up after the institution of the New Covenant, which would be Caligula (1), Claudius (2), Nero (3), Galba (4), Otho (5), Vitellius (6), Vespasian (7), and finally Titus (8). Titus, the "8th" was "of the 7th" meaning Titus was the son of Vespasian. He was also called by Daniel "the prince" whose people would destroy the city and the sanctuary because at the time of the destruction Titus' father Vespasian was Emperor making Titus the Prince of Rome.

    It was Vespasian who led the Roman armies in the conquest of Israel, and when Rome teetered on the verge of collapse in the year 69 A.D. (the year of the 4 emperors), Vespasian left for Rome to take up the reins of government leaving his son Titus to conduct the siege and destruction of Jerusalem.

    They were the 7th and the 8th.

    Based on Revelation 17:10, the first five emperors had fallen and the 6th was reigning, which would be Viellius, which dates the Revelation to sometime between April 17 and December 20 of 69 A.D.

    In Christ,
    Pilgrimer
     
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  7. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    The Testimony of Yeshua is the Spirit of prophecy:

    Luke 11:24-26 KJV
    24. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
    25. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
    26. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there:
    and the last state of that man is worse than the first.


    If indeed the "old man" unclean spirit was first cast out of a disciple to begin with then what does he do according to the doctrine? The unclean spirit goes through dry-arid-wilderness places, like a scapegoat with all your sins upon his "mortally wounded" head seeking rest, (all the sins of the people are placed upon the head of the scapegoat to/for `Aza'zel). But when he finds no rest he then goes and takes to him seven other spirits more wicked then himself and they return to the former "house" from whence he came, (and the man is the house). Therefore "test the spirits" and their doctrines as we are exhorted to do elsewhere in the Word. When that one returns, (and he most definitely will according to the doctrine of the Master) "he is the eighth and of the seven" because he was the first unclean spirit-old-man-scapegoat sin nature which was cast out in the beginning of the walk of every true disciple. That one is "the spirit of the world" which the disciple formerly served before committing himself or herself unto Messiah.
     
  8. Pilgrimer

    Pilgrimer Member

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    Interesting, but I'm afraid I don't agree with your view on the symbolism of the scapegoat. It was in fact the goat "for Jehovah" whose blood was sprinkled in the Holiest to make atonement for sin that foreshadowed the work of Christ in cleansing his disciples.

    The goat "for Azazel" (which means "for removing") represented those whose sins were not covered by the goat "for Jehovah" and therefore they bore their sins upon their own heads and were cast out into the wilderness where they died and never entered the Promised Land.

    In Christ,
    Pilgrimer
    [/quote]
    [/quote]
     
  9. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    Ahah, I see, then apparently for you there is no need to worry or "Watch!" (as admonished in Mark 13:37) because "Caligula (1), Claudius (2), Nero (3), Galba (4), Otho (5), Vitellius (6), Vespasian (7), and finally Titus (8). Titus, the 8th" are all dead and gone. :)
     
  10. 4given

    4given New Member

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    It doesn't matter when the book of Revelation was revealed. What matters is the time statements that were made therein. "Behold I come quickly", "Even at the door", "There be some standing here that will not taste of death until they see the son of coming in glory", James 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

    I mean come on, if I said to you that I was coming over to your house today and I don't come, wouldn't I be counted as a liar?

    The book of revelation was a continuation of what Daniel was seeing in his day. The rest of the book was sealed up and was hidden "Until the time of the end". The "end" is not the end of time or the end of all things as we know it. If it was speaking of a complete and utter end of all the cosmos, than why would there be an angel proclaiming the "everlasting" gospel? Why would we who are saved need to hear the everlasting gospel in heaven? Planet earth will always be here, but we which are alive and remaining shall be caught up together (when it's our turn to die) and mee the Lord in the air (for that is where He is as LORD over the earth, NOT satan as many suppose) and so shall we ever be with the Lord. The dead in Christ shall rise first, THAT had happened sometime AFTER His resurrection. Like Christ it was not possible for the ground to hold them any longer therein because the one that they were waiting for had come. But when Christ left them, they were instructed to wait (under the altar) for a season until their brethren (the early church) were killed (as a testimony against the Jews for the cup of their iniquity was just about full). The grace of God had to appear before them as a witness that Christ had indeed come and they were without excuse, even saying at the Judgment did we not prophecy in your name, did we not cast out devils in your hame. Though that goes on today, (because nothing is new under the sun), that particular parable was meant for those Jews that were called to the feast but refused to enter into the kingdom of God. All the prophecies were for that generation. The precepts that are in the prophecies are for all time, not for fulfillments but for us as examples that we should observe and learn from.

    Personally, I do not look for Jesus Christ to ever appear into this world again EXCEPT through His Body the Church. I am expecting a Revival. I am expecting the same thing that Jesus said to Philip, "If you seen Me, you've seen the Father". I don't need to see a literal flesh falling out of the sky on a white horse, I see Him in my brother, my sister, sometimes a sinner, but most times in you. I am expecting repentance in the Church, I am expecting power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost. The coming of the Lord holds no interest whatsever. "Deferred hope maketh the heart sick". People have been saying for hundreds of years that Chrsit could come back at any moment. The very statement they make is a lie. Sending a false impression. Representing our Lord in a bad way, treating Him like some lazy sloth. When He said in the gospels that He was going to Jerusalem, or some other town, He didn't take thousands of years to get there, He arrived at the time appointed. If He said, "Behold, I come quickly". I must believe that He came back then and He came in such a way that fooled everyone who reads the Revelation with their natural eyes. The Jews expected the Son of David to be a military man who would wipe out the Roman occupation, Christ didn't come the way they expected. We expect so much from a natural standpoint that we miss the whole meaning of the book of Revelation. We imagine all kinds of CGI brillance that will explode on the scene like a super nova. He appeared in the likeness of sinful flesh but when He returned at Pentecost it was the Father and the Son as the Holy Spirit. 2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Personally, I am looking for His Spirit, not a physical manifestation.
     
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  11. Pilgrimer

    Pilgrimer Member

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    No need to worry and watch for the Lord's coming to judge and destroy Israel in fulfillment of the Law, no. That came to pass in the generation of Jesus' first coming, which is what Mark 13/Matthew 24/Luke 21 was about.

    Or do you think the total destruction of the Jewish nation and the end of the Old Covenant that would occur in that generation wasn't even mentioned in the New Testament? :eek:

    In Christ,
    Pilgrimer

    Seriously? Why would we need to hear the Gospel in heaven? Why, the very angels of God, who stand in the presence of God "desire," long for, lust after, covet to "look into" and study and learn about this glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ! I can only say with the Apostle Paul, "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!"

    When we've been there ten thousand years we will have just begun to scratch the surface of the riches of God's wisdom in this Great and Marvelous Plan of Salvation.

    Nor will there ever come a day, either in this world, or in the world to come, when we will ever be able to stand before God without that covering of the blood of Jesus ... never, ever!

    We will always need the Gospel. We will forever cling to that old Rugged Cross. We will never stand on our own, but will forever stand by the grace of God in Christ.

    Not this old fallen, sinful earth. There is a new heaven and a new earth which will one day come to pass and in the new heaven and earth there will be no more death or sin or pain or weeping.

    You're leaving out a rather important part of that passage. The dead in Christ shall rise first, and we who are alive will be caught up with the dead who are raised up and we will all meet Jesus in the air when he returns to redeem what his blood has purchased.

    But Paul said concerning those who were dead in Christ that they would rise first, so clearly that resurrection could not have been a past event.

    Not all prophecy was for that generation. Prophecy is being fulfilled every time the Gospel is preached and another soul is redeemed and reconciled with God. So prophecy about salvation is ongoing. And there is prophecy about what occurs at the end of the Messianic or Christian age, which does come to an end, it doesn't last forever, the thousand years do "expire" (brought to a close, finished, ended).
    So it's simply not true that "all the prophecies were for that generation." Granted, most were, but not all.

    If all you have seen of Jesus is what you have seen in his servants, then you have a soul-shaking experience ahead of you!

    "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall know him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself ..." 1 John 3:2-3

    I do believe John probably had as intimate a spiritual relationship with Jesus as any man ever has, and yet he spoke of "when Jesus shall appear" and that we "shall be like him," obviously speaking of a future hope (and I don't think he was talking about hoping for death). And he even went on to say those who have this hope in them, are purified by it ...

    Perhaps the better course would be to simply withhold judgment on the possibility of a 2nd physical Advent of Jesus and see what the years ahead and further study might bring~

    In Christ,
    Pilgrimer
     
  12. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Hi Pilgrimer,

    Just a small point, perhaps, but crucial to grasping one of the differences between the operation of the Old Covenant and the New.

    Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

    Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

    1 Peter 1: 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

    13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


    The death of Jesus Christ on the cross connected the Old Covenant to the New, and shows disciples that the putting off of the tabernacle of the flesh (2 Peter 1:14) is a necessary preliminary to putting on incorruption. We cry 'Worthy is the Lamb' because He made it possible for us to enter into His life - the very life of the One who knew no sin and did no sin. That's the gospel!

    1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    Nowhere in the New Testament is there a reference to our sins being 'covered' by the blood of Jesus Christ. If you can find one, please show me?
     
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  13. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    Well said dragonfly. :) The "old covenant" was understood and interpreted according to the eyes and mind of the flesh by the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, during the time of Messiah in the Gospel accounts, (this was a deviation from Moses and Aaron who understood it properly in the beginning because the heart of Moses was circumcised with the Ten Words). The two covenants are the same Torah but understood through two different sets of eyes and ears. The first concerns those who see and hear everything according to the flesh, the eyes of the flesh, and the mind of the flesh; it does not matter if one claims to keep the commandments, (though it be according to the flesh) or if one altogether "abolishes" Torah in his mindset because both likewise see the covenant according to the eyes and mind of the flesh and, thus, both groups are ultimately of the same genos-kind, (flesh minded) and the vail over the heart and mind remains when it comes to understanding the "old testament", (2 Corinthians 3:14). Those walk just as the serpent anaology from the beginning; which is to say, "according to the belly" because they walk according to the flesh, seeing all things according to the flesh and the physical. This is most destructive and deadly especially when it comes to doctrine. The new or fresh-refreshed, (kainos) covenant is the same Torah but understood through the doctrines teachings and commandments of Yeshua found in the Gospel accounts. When one immerses in the doctrines of Yeshua the old man nature who walks according to the flesh begins to vanish away. It is the flesh and the mind of the flesh which is to pass away; and when this occurs then shall the disciple be clothed with the new tabernacle-tent from above, (she comes down out of heaven like a bride for the adornment of her man). :)

    YHWH says that he kills and makes alive; if therefore you are not first killed and your carcass given to the fowls of heaven then you cannot be made alive, (O Israel). Not one jot or tittle shall pass from Torah until all of it is fulfilled; each in his or her own appointed times, (and then a son is born into the kingdom neither male nor female). :)
     
  14. AServantofJC

    AServantofJC New Member

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    Hi all,

    Thanks for your efforts everyone, we are all learning and growing “into the grace and knowledge of the Lord” and need good mentor-teachers along the way, so I thank everyone for all their studious teaching efforts and prayer-seekings and encouragements in my/our behalf. [2 Peter 3:18]

    I sincerely appreciate your response to this thread since the focus of this effort is to encourage one another to be like the Berean-disciples, and after Timothy's example to become better “trained” to “rightly-divide” “doctrines-from-God” that would en-courage sacrificial Holiness and provoke love and good-works from the doers, [*a] from various “doctrines-of-men” that oftentimes unwittingly evokes idolatrous carnalities and or an unholy lethargy and or a tragically unfruitful self-destructive fatalism and or even perhaps a bigoted-arrogance from the adherents of various subtly, or sometimes obviously, “flaweddoctrines-of-men. [*a: Hebrews 10:24-25]

    I also hope that with the Holy Spirit's help I have been able to “en-courage” some believers with this thread, as I have similarly been “en-couraged” by God and others, similarly to how the early Church leaders in Acts 15 were taught by others and via God's Spirit that in their own generation they should NOT major on minor issues with most believers but should strive to always major on major issues that could firstly set souls free and mentor “any” and “all” souls into eternal life.

    Then as believers would be called to progress in their walk of faith they would then be guided by God's spiritual mentors into a deeper understanding of the commitments “requested” by the Lord, in order for them to be set apart for service, and to be lovingly Holy as “eternal” joint-heir ambassadors for Christ Jesus' Kingdom of Heaven that is also being built up in the earth. [Matthew 6:10]

    The scriptures that highlight the initial wisdom the early church leaders obtained concerning “scripturally-legalistic” Christian Judaizers, is principally found in Acts 15 that I have included below.

    <><
    Acts 15:1-2 & 22-30 (NIV)

    The Council at Jerusalem

    15: 1 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.

    {After some discussions the following course of action was taken by the Church leaders in Jerusalem:}

    The Council’s Letter to Gentile Believers

    22 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers. 23 With them they sent the following letter:

    The apostles and elders, your brothers,

    To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:

    Greetings.

    24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul - 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

    Farewell.

    30 So the men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter. 31 The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message.
    <><

    In my view, and I have been taught it is Jesus' view as well, the “scripturally-legalistic” Christian Judaizers have always been a predominant self-destructive tribulation within the body of Christ, [*] and so my continual prayer is that some souls would be set-free via the efforts of those who would read this thread and then add their efforts to it for Jesus and other's sakes. [*: See Matthew 5:13]

    We are all in training to be a little more like Jesus every day, one day and one step at a time.

    Again, thank you everyone for your posts and prayers. They will eventually be fruitful towards everyone who might someday read this thread.

    Shalom in Jesus,
    A Servant of Jesus Christ

    AJCServant



    <>PS There are several key scriptures that continually govern my thoughts, hopes and prayers for this thread, of which three are below and three others are again given in the PPS below:

    2 Timothy 3:16-17 All (Holy) scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may become perfect (mature), thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

    2 Timothy 2:15-16 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. (KJV) (ESV) 16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness.

    Isaiah 29:13-14 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the doctrines-of-men: therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.



    <>PPS
    John 10&15&17 & Revelation 21

    John 16:13-14 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for He shall receive of me, and shall shew it unto you.

    John 8:31-32 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

    James 2:13 Because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful, (howbeit) mercy triumphs over judgment.



    <>PPPS In order to not overwhelm anyone with the many-many scriptures within my previous post, I did not attach them in that previous posting.

    So today I have posted the scriptures within this post and in the previous post below for those who would wish to more easily consider them like the noble Bereans in Acts 17:11 were prone to do.


    <>2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

    <>Hebrews 10:24-25 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

    <>Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

    <>Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

    <>Acts 17:11 These (in Berea) were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

    <>

    {<>1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there-be] prophecies, they shall fail (katargeo); [(-:] whether [there-be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there-be] knowledge, it shall vanish away (i.e. fail - katargeo).
    <>James 2:13 Because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful, (howbeit) mercy triumphs over judgment.
    <>Revelation 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. (men=anthropos) <>}

    {<>Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
    <>Psalm 111:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
    <>Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
    <>Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.<>}

    {<>John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
    <>Proverbs 29:18 Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.
    <>Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.<>}

    {<>Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    <>Revelation 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
    <>Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
    <>Ezekiel 28:12-19 (AKJV)
    12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
    13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering,
    the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
    14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
    15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
    16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
    17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
    18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
    19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
    Isaiah 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
    <>1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. <>}
    +
    {<>Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
    <>John 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
    +
    <>Matthew 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
    <>Matthew 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
    <>Mark 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.<>}

    {<>Colossians 1:20 And having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
    <>Leviticus 19:17-18 (AKJV) 17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. 18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.
    <>Deuteronomy 6:5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
    +
    <>Leviticus 16:7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
    <>Matthew 19:30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.
    <>Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
    <>Mark 10:31 But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.
    <>Luke 13:30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last. <>}


    {<>1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there-be] prophecies, they shall fail (katargeo); [(-:] whether [there-be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there-be] knowledge, it shall vanish away (i.e. fail - katargeo).
    <>James 2:13 Because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful, (howbeit) mercy triumphs over judgment. <>}

    {<>2 Peter 2:10 And especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they blaspheme angelic majesties.
    <>Jude 1:8 Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and blaspheme angelic majesties. <>}

    {<>Colossians 1:20 And having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.<>}

    {<>1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there-be] prophecies, they shall fail (katargeo); [(-:] whether [there-be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there-be] knowledge, it shall vanish away (i.e. fail - katargeo).
    +
    <>Habakkuk 2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
    +

    <>Proverbs 29:18 Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.
    <>Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
    <>Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
    <>Psalm 111:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
    <>Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
    <>Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
    +
    <>1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. <>}

    {<>Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
    +
    <>Revelation 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
    <>Luke 15:31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
    <>Leviticus 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
    <>Genesis 4:13-16 (AKJV) 13 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. 14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. 15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. 16 And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
    <>2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
    <>2 Timothy 3:16-17 (AKJV) 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect (mature), throughly furnished unto all good works. <>}



    <><> <><
    PPPPS - Any further "edifying", "wholesome" and helpful comments anyone?
     
  15. AServantofJC

    AServantofJC New Member

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    Hi all,

    Thanks for your efforts everyone, we are all learning and growing “into the grace and knowledge of the Lord” and need good mentor-teachers along the way, so I thank everyone for all their studious teaching efforts and prayer-seekings and encouragements in my/our behalf. [2 Peter 3:18]

    As the readers might see from how I have written this thread, my focus has been to “repetitively” promote the simplicity of being a “fruitful” ambassador for Jesus' Kingdom, with the hope that some others would be encouraged to also “repetitively” “ask” for God's help to become even more “fruitful” themselves, as Jesus taught us to become, [*] whenever we would seek to “obey” His simple commandment to love His Father God with “all” of one's (1st) heart, (2nd) understanding, (3rd) soul, and (4th) strength. [Mark 12:33 KJV] & [Deuteronomy 6:5] [*: Numbers 20:12 & Luke 12:45 & Luke 21:34]

    My focus for this thread is from having petitioned “our” Father God's oversight in order to mentor other good-believers, and also to be mentored myself, (as Timothy and the Bereans were mentored with God's help), in order that we may all be able to better fulfill 2Timothy 2:15-16 that says, “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness. (ESV) (KJV) 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.”

    And also to enlighten some Berean type disciples concerning the “eternal” goals infallibly outlined by a Holy Paul within 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 that state:

    Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease (katargeo); where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away (katargeo). For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears (katargeo). When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put (away) (katargeo) the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

    And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.


    ><> <><>


    Ultimately our immeasurably-merciful Heavenly Father will be sovereign towards how He will choose to glorify [*] Himself to the uttermost in these last-days, and the Greek word katargeo is what was strongly enlightened to me to remind me of His merciful-sovereignty towards "all" in His prodigal creation. [*: John 15:8]



    ><> <><>


    Concerning when and why the Book of Revelation was written by John the Evangelist when he was on the Isle of Patmos:

    Because any teachings by any fallible man, including this narrative, could unwittingly be flawed, all Christians should be as the Bereans in Acts 17:11, and should ask the Holy Spirit to guide them into the truth, and to discern doctrines that can be judged by their fruitfulness in strengthening Jesus' Kingdom while also encouraging loving-holiness towards God and “all” others. When the Book of Revelation, (and verse 18:4), was written during Nero's reign it encouraged an exodus from Mystery Babylon prior to its impending destruction(s), similar to Nahum's writings that encouraged believers to flee Nineveh prior to its holocaust by the Babylonians, and similar to Jesus' teachings from The Book of Daniel that encouraged believers to flee Jerusalem prior to its holocaust in 70 AD. During Nero's reign The Book of Revelation encouraged an exodus from both Jerusalem and Rome since they both have seven hills and both had a history of martyring God's prophets.

    Today Revelation continues to encourage believers to flee from all Mystery Babylon communities. These are idolatrous non-relational religious communities whose leadership would promote fruit destroying doctrines-of-men, that are materialistic-idolatrous, lascivious, or lustful; or that would teach the opposite of the truth concerning our Father God's immeasurable faith hope love and eternal efforts for “each” and “all” of His prodigal children; until Colossians 1:20 and 1John 3:8 would eventually be fulfilled, when “hopefully” “all” might eventually be reconciled back to His Kingdom in Heaven as a result of the cross of Christ Jesus. (1Peter 3:18-20) (Matthew 19:30, 20:16, Mark 10:31) These Mystery Babylon communities are especially evident when they martyr those who attempt to expose doctrines of men and devils for the thievery, death and destruction they cause within our world and to Jesus' Kingdom.

    Scripture teaches that Jesus is continually praying throughout His leadership's siftings and chastenings, in order that they would be taught the importance of continually converting and mentoring others to pursue loving-holiness towards “all” while simultaneously resisting all evil, “if” they would pray to remain one of His chosen ambassadors into the eternity ahead of them. Because of the Savior's prayers His mighty angels are continuously fulfilling 2Chronicles 16:9 without any favoritism within any culture or lineage, until all of His children would have matured and 1Corinthians 13:8-10 and Revelation 21 would be fulfilled and seen in the earth. The results of Jesus' prayerful efforts would be that His children would have learned to work in concert with His Spirit to bring forth a best-case fulfillment of all apocalyptic “prophetic-scripture”, i.e. a best-case fulfillment of the Greek word katargeō in 1Corinthians 13:8, e.g. katargeō concerning Isaiah 17, Nahum 1:15c, Zephaniah 1:2,18c and 2:9.

    All the while the evil one, the devil Beelzebub, works to bring forth a worst-case fulfillment of all “prophetic-scripture,” by using the blasphemies, slanders, self-righteous bigotries, and Laodicean lethargy that all doctrines-of-men continually promote, whenever some wayward teachers have blindly used the Holy scriptures to multiply their sins towards God. As Paul was duped to do prior to His seeing Christ Jesus, and immediately he became a converted-universalist. Revelation 21 reveals that at the end of this age every hardened soul who would have continually refused to receive the Gospel of the Kingdom into their hearts are destined to be left behind when Jesus' joint-heirs would be evacuated; and these few evil souls would then suffer for ages whenever a near earth nova would again sterilize the earth for a lengthy season.

    Similarly to how judgment upon Jerusalem and its Church there was able to be minimized via the efforts of Jesus' Church prior to 70AD, what is being accomplished in our generation is again in the hands of Jesus' Holy Church, much more than in the hands of God's Holy Angels who are mighty in power but limited in number. Because our Father God knows each of His children's fears and weaknesses, let us each pray that the Comforter would encourage God's ambassadors to be courageous and prudent, in order that they would pursue God's Holiness in a way that very soon the gates of hell will not prevail against the assaults by Jesus' Church.

    Only then would our Father God be glorified to our uttermost, and His ambassadors would have prepared the earth for Jesus' to reveal His New Jerusalem as a Day-Star in the eastern sky amidst the clouds of Heaven, at which time His “mercy will have triumphed over judgments” to the Glory of God the Father. [James 2:13] (Mark 14:62; Habakkuk 2:14) (2Peter 1:4; Revelation 12:11, 21:27)

    We are all in training to be a little more like Jesus every day, one day and one step at a time.

    Again, thank you everyone for your posts and prayers. They will eventually be fruitful towards everyone who might someday read this thread.

    Shalom in Jesus,
    A Servant of Jesus Christ
    AJCServant
    John 10&15&17 & Revelation 21

    <>PS There are several key scriptures that continually govern my thoughts, hopes and prayers for this thread, of which six are below that are posted in the hopes they would edify the seeker who would become like a Berean disciple that was noteworthy within the scriptures for their virtue during Paul's day.

    2 Timothy 3:16-17 All (Holy) scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may become perfect (mature), thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

    2 Timothy 2:15-16 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. (KJV) (ESV) 16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness.

    Isaiah 29:13-14 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the doctrines-of-men: therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

    John 16:13-14 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for He shall receive of me, and shall shew it unto you.

    John 8:31-32 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

    James 2:13 Because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful, (howbeit) mercy triumphs over judgment.

    ><> <><>

    Also, a seventh greatly-encouraging scripture for me is Isaiah 42:1-4 (KJV) that states:

    Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set (righteous) judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.


    PPS - Within the last post the italicized doctrines-of-men” in Isaiah 29:13-14 is a translation from the Douay-Rheims Bible, see biblehub.com, and the words in parenthesis have been added for clarity and/or are additional translations from the original text.


    <><> <><
    PPPS - Any further "edifying", "wholesome" and helpful comments anyone?
     
  16. Raeneske

    Raeneske New Member

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    A quick search online brings up that Revelation was written in 96 AD, but this I believe is not the crux of the issue.

    The issue for some, would be that Revelation refers to Nero, the parts about the antichrist and mystery Babylon. The problem with that is, there is time in this prophecy. This prophecy mentions the same time mentioned in the book of Daniel, which is 3&1/2 years = 42 months = 1260 days, which is, prophetically speaking, 1260 literal years. This antichrist beast was to continue until the second coming of Jesus Christ. Yes they did lose power, but the Scriptures do declare that they regain their power.
     
  17. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    That's right, except the 1260 days are to be literal days and not years.
     
  18. Raeneske

    Raeneske New Member

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    Numbers 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
    Ezekiel 4:4-6 Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity. 5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. 6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

    The day for a year principle applies in Revelation as well. We see this principle also in the book of Daniel chapter 9.

    Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    There are 7 days per week, and each day in a week represents a year. 70 weeks is 490 days, which translates to 490 literal years.

    Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    Here we can see that in the midst of the week, the sacrifice and oblation shall cease. This refers to the final week of the 70 weeks. A week is 7 years. In the middle of that is 3 1/2 years.
    The same principle applies to the 42 months = 3 1/2 years = 1260 days. 1260 days translates to 1260 literal years.
     
  19. Pilgrimer

    Pilgrimer Member

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    Hello dragonfly, and my apologies for the tardiness of my response.

    The root meaning of the Hebrew word for atonement kaphar is “to cover over.” Paul uses this idea of a “covering” for sin in his argument for justification by faith in Romans 4:7 where he quotes David: “Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.”


    I think the most important differences to grasp between the efficacy of the two covenants is that the Old Covenant was limited in two ways: first, it was limited in that the atonement for sin was superficial, because it only purified or cleansed the flesh (Hebrews 9:13), it was powerless to do anything about the condition of the heart which is where sin originates. But in that sense the Law did serve the purpose of preparing the way, by providing “cleansing” of those of whom Jesus was born according to the flesh. But under the New Covenant, the blood of Jesus is able to cleanse our conscience so that we can have a relationship with a God who is alive and wants to communicate with us, dwell with us, dwell in us. But we first have to have our old stony hearts broken and cleansed and made into a fit dwelling place for God’s Spirit.

    The second weakness of the Law was that it was temporary (Hebrews 10:1-2), which is nowhere more evident than in the fact that the sacrifices for sin had to be offered anew every day, twice a day in fact, morning and evening, in addition to any time an individual trespassed, or anytime one became Levitically defiled through bodily contact with corruption. But under the New Covenant the blood of Jesus is a once-for-all-for-ever cleansing that does not need to be repeated because Jesus stands before God a living, perpetual sacrifice.

    So I think those are to the two real differences between the two covenants, and why the New Covenant is so much better.

    In Christ,
    Pilgrimer
    The last 7 years of Daniel’s people, the Jewish nation, was a time of war, and in the midst of that 7 years, 3 ½ years into that war, the daily sacrifice and oblation ceased.

    In Christ
    Pilgrimer
     
  20. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    The day for a year concept only applies to Scripture where it is given, not to all prophecies in God's Word. To do otherwise is to cause conflicts with the timing of prophecy given with literal days.
    In the Daniel 9 prophecy the idea of periods of sevens (week) is given, along with prophecy where start time depends upon a literal fulfillment, i.e., like the decree to build Jerusalem after the 70 years Babylon captivity (Dan.9:25). That's how we know the Daniel 9 prophecy weeks (or sevens) are meant as 7 year periods.

    Can we hap-hazardly apply that to the Ezekiel prophecy you mentioned, or to other later prophecy in the OT? No.

    The way we know the 1260 days in Revelation is in days is because of the final "one week" period of 7 years that's left in the Daniel 9 prophecy still yet to be fulfilled, because of the specific kind of events associated within that final "one week".

    We are first shown about a period of 1260 days in Rev.11 involving God's two witnesses prophesying in Jerusalem. Associated with that period is the forty two months in that same chapter, which is also linked later in Rev.13 with the time the dragon is given power over the saints (Rev.13:5-7). That relates directly back to the timing in Daniel 7:25, i.e., the "time and times and dividing of time", which is equal in time to the 1260 days or 42 months in Revelation.
     
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