Revelation was written during Nero's reign before 70AD

[iamlamad]

So, you don't recall in Daniel about the false one that makes a league in Jerusalem and places the abomination idol for false worship? nor Apostle Paul's warning in 2 Thess.2:4 about the false one coming to sit in the temple and play God??? The early Church fathers understood Paul the same way I do about that coming of a specific Antichrist to sit in a temple in Jerusalem prior to Christ's coming. They looked for him in their day, and the Reformers thought they'd found him in the pope in their days, but here we are, it's 2013, and the parameters of that prophecy still has not happened yet.

Our Lord Jesus also warned us about that event of a coming false one and the setting up of an idol inside the "holy place" for all to bow in worship to (Matt.24). He was giving us the signs of the very end there, not signs for 70 A.D. The "abomination of desolation" event did NOT occur in 70 A.D. by the Romans. Instead, per the Jewish historian Josephus, the 2nd temple burned down before the Roman army could get possession of it. Some folk's idea of Roman banner worship in 70 A.D. is just a counter by those on the false Preterist doctrines of men. The placing of the "abomination of desolation" per the Book of Daniel is a very specific event that requires a standing Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and an altar, etc.
Rev 11:1-3
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(KJV)

The temple of God is to mark just which... kind of temple, for there have been many pagan temples in John's era too. That is pointing to a temple in Jerusalem associated with the Jews worshipping in it.

Per that Rev.11 Scripture, the Gentiles are given the outer court only, while others "worship" in that temple. And those Gentiles are given to tread the holy city (Jerusalem) for 42 months. That definitely places this temple here... on earth. So where... is the idea of the destruction of that temple there? No such idea of destruction of a temple is written anywhere in that.

Along with that 42 months timing, God's two witnesses are there given to prophesy for 1260 days. Those two timings are the SAME amount of time. One is given in months (lunar), and the other is given in days (solar). Later in Rev.13 we're told the "dragon" is given to reign for 42 months. That's the same timing schedule.

Also, God's two witnesses are prophesying dressed in sackcloth. That was an Old Testament practice to show shame and mourning, i.e., wearing sackcloth and ashes. That's yet another way we know this temple is on earth. The reason they're mourning is because of this period being the time when the final Antichrist siezes power in Jerusalem, and sets up idol worship inside a temple there, as per our Lord Jesus in Matt.24 about the "abomination of desolation" idol in the "holy place" which He quoted from the Book of Daniel.

Moreover, these events are on the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. And in a later verse we're even told that the beast ascends... from the bottomless pit to kill these two witnesses. And then by the sounding of the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe, all the kingdoms of this world are shown having become the kingdoms of The LORD and of His Christ. So the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing is signaling the "great tribulation" timing. The 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe is signaling the end of the tribulation.

Veteran is right about a new temple - it MUST COME. But his timing is a myth. The 7th trumpet MARKS the exact midpoint and is sounded in heaven at the same moment the man of sin says I AM GOD which is the start of the abomination that divides the week. Proof of this is seen in 12:6, the woman begins to flee just as Jesus told them too, at seeing the abomination. Notice the 1260 days. This tells us that at this moment, it is the VERY DAY of the abomination. This is at the 7th trumpet, not the 6th.

Many have failed to recognize that the story of the two witnesses is written as a SIDE JOURNEY and not as main line chronology. NO ONE suggests that 11:3 is 42 months after 11:2. No one suggests that 12:7 is 1260 days after verse 6. No one suggests that the 42 months of the beast's authority is played out in chapter 13. Most recognize that these are only the time of the beginning of the counting period, NOT the entire period. It is the same with the story of the two witnesses: verse 3 is when the time begins. But it ends at the 7th vial. ALL of these - every mention of the 3 1/2 year period of time, whether it is given in days, months or years, all will end at the 7th vial, or close to that time, for that is the END of the 70th week. Therefore we must consider 11:4 - 11:13 as a parenthesis, and NOT in John's chronology of the seals, trumpets and vials.

IF we consider these verses as a parenthesis, then the two witnesses show up 3 1/2 days before the abomination, testify for 1260 days - which takes them to 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial. they lay dead for 3 1/2 days, and are then raised to live at the 7th vial. This is the last 24 hour period of the age and of the week, and is the timing for ALL the Old Testament Saints to rise. The ALL raise at the 7th vial, causing the worst earthquake ever to hit earth. It is the SAME earthquake as seen in 11:13.

Lamad

 

[veteran]

My question wasn't meant as an insult daq, I just have a hard time following your posts. You seem to spiritualize everything written in the Word. When one spiritualizes as much scripture as you do, where dose it stop, can anything in the Bible be taken to some spiritual end to match any doctrine they want.

It's called 'mysticism'. The origin of the practice of mysticism comes from ancient Sumer-Babylon and the ancient priest caste systems of the 'mystery school' of ancient lore. That's what the so-called Tabernacle Studies are about that I mentioned in my previous posts. The ones relying on the practice of mysticism the most today are the occultists.

Veteran is right about a new temple - it MUST COME. But his timing is a myth. The 7th trumpet MARKS the exact midpoint and is sounded in heaven at the same moment the man of sin says I AM GOD which is the start of the abomination that divides the week. Proof of this is seen in 12:6, the woman begins to flee just as Jesus told them too, at seeing the abomination. Notice the 1260 days. This tells us that at this moment, it is the VERY DAY of the abomination. This is at the 7th trumpet, not the 6th.

Clearly you haven't really studied those Revelation Scriptures for yourself, but instead just regurgitate men's ideas you've heard elsewhere.

Since the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit is who kills God's two witnesses in Jerusalem, ON the 2nd Woe period, that means the Antichrist is already there on earth at work on that 2nd Woe too.

Per Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2, the Antichrist comes FIRST, then Jesus comes to destroy that Antichrist, in that order. In Rev.11, that order is the same.

Another proof of this given in Rev.11 is the 42 months. That's the same timing the "dragon" of Rev.13 is to work on earth to decieve.

So...
6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period = Antichrist here at work
7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period = Christ's coming to defeat that Antichrist

 

[Trumpeter]

My question wasn't meant as an insult daq, I just have a hard time following your posts. You seem to spiritualize everything written in the Word. When one spiritualizes as much scripture as you do, where dose it stop, can anything in the Bible be taken to some spiritual end to match any doctrine they want.

From God The Father: If all the mighty works of The Lord are broken down into mere parables and metaphors, then you are lost, forever consumed by talk and confusion, for this is the way of the evil one.

Excerpt from:

The Great Day of the Lord
http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=The_Great_Day_of_the_Lord

 

[daq]

It's called 'mysticism'. The origin of the practice of mysticism comes from ancient Sumer-Babylon and the ancient priest caste systems of the 'mystery school' of ancient lore. That's what the so-called Tabernacle Studies are about that I mentioned in my previous posts. The ones relying on the practice of mysticism the most today are the occultists.

From God The Father: If all the mighty works of The Lord are broken down into mere parables and metaphors, then you are lost, forever consumed by talk and confusion, for this is the way of the evil one.

Excerpt from:

The Great Day of the Lord
http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=The_Great_Day_of_the_Lord

Do the two of you really believe you will not give an account for your blasphemies when one of you claims to be delivering messages from God the Father himself that are not found anywhere in Scripture and the other is essentially claiming that the Book of Leviticus from Torah, the Revelation of Yeshua, and the Harpazo of Paulos are all Sumer-Babylonian mysticism and occult?

Am I a closer? It is painful to see men destroy their own souls this way.

 

[iamlamad]

It's called 'mysticism'. The origin of the practice of mysticism comes from ancient Sumer-Babylon and the ancient priest caste systems of the 'mystery school' of ancient lore. That's what the so-called Tabernacle Studies are about that I mentioned in my previous posts. The ones relying on the practice of mysticism the most today are the occultists.

Clearly you haven't really studied those Revelation Scriptures for yourself, but instead just regurgitate men's ideas you've heard elsewhere.

Since the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit is who kills God's two witnesses in Jerusalem, ON the 2nd Woe period, that means the Antichrist is already there on earth at work on that 2nd Woe too.

Per Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2, the Antichrist comes FIRST, then Jesus comes to destroy that Antichrist, in that order. In Rev.11, that order is the same.

Another proof of this given in Rev.11 is the 42 months. That's the same timing the "dragon" of Rev.13 is to work on earth to decieve.

So...
6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period = Antichrist here at work
7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period = Christ's coming to defeat that Antichrist

I think the difference is, I believe what I read in Revelation without being forced to rearrange it to fit a theory.

Since the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit is who kills God's two witnesses in Jerusalem, ON the 2nd Woe period

This is simply wrong, because you haven't recognized a parenthesis. There is no mention of the two witnesses before chapter 11:3. This is where they show up. Chapters 11-13 are MIDPOINT chapters.

Chapter 8 - beginning - - chapter 11 midpoint - - chapter 16- END.

Since they begin their testimony at the midpoint and testify for half the week, common sense and logic says they are killed very near the END, which is the 7th vial. This should not be difficult for you, because it is the ending of the 42 months of trampling, the end of the 1260 days of fleeing and protection, and the end of the 42 months of authority.

Why then do you insist on their 1260 days ending at the midpoint when they begin? In your theory they testify for what - 3 1/2 days?

Since 1260 days have past (the first half of the week) by chapter 11, then by your theory, the second half is 42 months (trampling) plus 1260 days (witnessing) plus 1260 days of fleeing .....shall I go on and add another 42 months of authority? Just how long IS the last half of the week in your theory?

The intent of the author is that all five of these time periods run concurrently. NONE are added to another.

In your theory, the woman fleeing (12:6) is now fleeing some 1260 days AFTER the midpoint. what? Is she fleeing the coming of Jesus? Sorry, your theory does not fit.

Next, you have Jesus coming at the 7th trumpet! Yet the bibles I have show His coming in chapter 19, 3 1/2 years plus AFTER the 7th trumpet. So you are RE-ARRANGING the book. Who gave you that authority?

Readers, can you see the fallacy of forming a theory and then trying to force that theory into scripture (square peg in round hole) and make it fit? Veteran has rearranged the Book to fit his theory. The truth is, the 7th trumpet is the MIDPOINT of the week, proven by the woman fleeing in 12:6 and by her protection in 12:14. She is fleeing, just as Jesus said to do, because she has just seen the abomination. That event divides the week into two equal halves, which is again proven by the 1260 days of her fleeing; she begins to flee the instant she sees the abomination. Jesus coming is after the END of the week, in chapter 19.

Failing to see that the story of the two witnesses (11:4-11:13) is a parenthesis completely messes up John's chronology. It adds 1260 days before the woman flees. Adding that time makes her fleeing at the END of the week, not in the middle.

The TRUTH is, the Kingdoms are transferred to Jesus at the midpoint, but He does not descend and take possession until 3 1/2 years later, in chapter 19.

Next, this writer does not understand these "woes." There is NOT a "woe period." The 2nd woe is an EVENT: the 6th trumpet event that kills 1/3 of earth's population. When that event is done, the 2nd woe is done.

Another proof of this given in Rev.11 is the 42 months. That's the same timing the "dragon" of Rev.13 is to work on earth to decieve.

Finally! One bit of common sense and understanding in this post! Yes, the 42 months of trampling is going to be almost concurrent with the 42 months of authority. The 42 months of trampling will start some little time before the 42 months of authority. Very good. However, the 1260 days of fleeing, and the time, times and half of time of protection WILL ALSO be running concurrently with these two mentions of the 42 months. And finally, the 1260 days of testifying will also be running concurrently with these others. THEY ALL WILL BE HAPPENING AT THE SAME TIME. And all five of these time periods will end at or very near the 7th vial which ends the week.

The beast that ascends from the bottomless pit will STILL BE AROUND near the end of the week when these two witnesses are finally killed.

Start: 1 year - 2 years - 3 years - 3.5 years - MIDPOINT - 1 year - 2 years - 3 years - 3.5 years - END
..........6 trumpets sound here...........................->|<- 42 months of trampling begins------------------END here
..........................................................................->|<- 1260 days of testifying begin.........................End here
...................................................................... ....->|<-1260 days of fleeing begins...........................Ends here
...........................................................................->|<-.3 1/2 years of protection begins....................Ends here
...........................................................................->|<-42 months of authority beings.........................Ends here.

This is the intent of the Author. All five of these run parallel, concurrently. The 42 months of trampling will begin first, perhaps a week before the two witnesses show up and begin to testify. God's wrath and Satan's wrath
run concurrently, and therefore cannot be separated.

Lamad

 

[AServantofJC]

Hi all,


Has anyone considered how important it might be to us “all” in these last days, that Paul was infallibly inspired by the Shekhinah Spirit of God to use the word katargeō exactly as he did within the “love” verses of 1 Corinthians 13?


<><>1Corinthians 13:8-11<><>
Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail (katargeō); [(-:] whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away (i.e. fail - katargeō). For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect (mature) is come, then that which is in part shall be done away (katargeō). When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away (katargeō) childish things. <><>


I truly believe that if more would consider the simplicity of what Paul was teaching to us all, (especially in these last days immediately prior to Jesus revealing His glory and power through the eastern clouds), concerning all the “prophecies-of-men” or “doctrines-of-men” that our Shekhinah God's sovereign decisions “may” choose to allow to katargeō – fail, in order that His “mercy would triumph over judgments” [James 2:13] and He would be glorified thereby, I honestly believe that much pain and suffering would be minimized in the earth in the days ahead, and much holiness would be the result.


At least, this is what I feel and I pray is what is occurring in my own life as a result of what I have been shown about katargeō in this past season.


Shalom in Jesus,
A Servant of Jesus Christ


John 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Romans 12:9-10 Let love be without dissimulation [hypocrisy]. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another.

1 Peter 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

 

[Guestman]

According to the earliest testimony, John wrote the Revelation about 96 C.E., approximately 26 years after the destruction of Jerusalem. This would be toward the close of the reign of Emperor Domitian. In verification of this, Irenaeus in his “Against Heresies” (V, xxx) says of the Apocalypse (Revelation): “For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign.”


Eusebius and Jerome both agree with this testimony. Domitian was the brother of Titus, who led the Roman armies to destroy Jerusalem. He became emperor at the death of Titus, 15 years before the book of Revelation was written. He demanded that he be worshiped as god and assumed the title Dominus et Deus noster (meaning “Our Lord and God”).


Emperor worship did not disturb those who worshiped false gods, but it could not be indulged in by the early Christians, who refused to compromise their faith on this point. Thus, toward the close of Domitian’s rule (81-96 C.E.), severe persecution came upon the Christians.


It is thought that John was exiled to Patmos by Domitian. When Domitian was assassinated in 96 C.E., he was succeeded by the more tolerant emperor Nerva, who evidently released John. It was during this imprisonment on Patmos that John received the visions he wrote down.


We must appreciate that what John saw and was told to write to the congregations was not just a series of unrelated visions, haphazardly recorded. The entire book of Revelation, from beginning to end, gives us a coherent picture of things to come, going from one vision to another until the full disclosure of God’s Kingdom purposes is reached at the end of the visions.

We should therefore see the book of Revelation as a whole and as made up of related, harmonious parts, transporting us far into the future from John’s time. After its introduction (Rev. 1:1-9), the book can be viewed as being divided into 16 visions: (1) 1:10–3:22; (2) 4:1–5:14; (3) 6:1-17; (4) 7:1-17; (5) 8:1–9:21; (6) 10:1–11:19; (7) 12:1-17; (8) 13:1-18; (9) 14:1-20; (10) 15:1–16:21; (11) 17:1-18; (12) 18:1–19:10; (13) 19:11-21; (14) 20:1-10; (15) 20:11–21:8; (16) 21:9–22:5. These visions are followed by a motivating conclusion, in which Jehovah God, Jesus, the angel, and John all speak, making their final contribution as the principals in the channel of communication.—22:6-21.(All Scripture is Inspired, P. 264, par 5, 6)

 

[daq]

We must appreciate that what John saw and was told to write to the congregations was not just a series of unrelated visions, haphazardly recorded. The entire book of Revelation, from beginning to end, gives us a coherent picture of things to come, going from one vision to another until the full disclosure of God’s Kingdom purposes is reached at the end of the visions.

We should therefore see the book of Revelation as a whole and as made up of related, harmonious parts, transporting us far into the future from John’s time. After its introduction (Rev. 1:1-9), the book can be viewed as being divided into 16 visions: (1) 1:10–3:22; (2) 4:1–5:14; (3) 6:1-17; (4) 7:1-17; (5) 8:1–9:21; (6) 10:1–11:19; (7) 12:1-17; (8) 13:1-18; (9) 14:1-20; (10) 15:1–16:21; (11) 17:1-18; (12) 18:1–19:10; (13) 19:11-21; (14) 20:1-10; (15) 20:11–21:8; (16) 21:9–22:5. These visions are followed by a motivating conclusion, in which Jehovah God, Jesus, the angel, and John all speak, making their final contribution as the principals in the channel of communication.—22:6-21.(All Scripture is Inspired, P. 264, par 5, 6)

What Yochanan the Immerser received in Herod's prison, ("Patmos") was a "coherent picture of things to come" AT THE CROSS.
And likewise for all those after Yeshua who will follow in his footsteps, deny themselves, and take up their own crosses . . .

 

[veteran]

iamlamad said:


"I think the difference is, I believe what I read in Revelation without being forced to rearrange it to fit a theory."

You're telling lies now, for it's the teachings of others that you heed instead; you are not keeping the Rev.11 Scripture as written and you well know it, which is why you're telling a lie with that above statement.

Since you openly DENY The Scripture as It is written, there's no use in even trying to converse with someone as dishonest as you. Nor will I wish you well because of your unrighteousness.

 

[AServantofJC]

Hi Guestman,

Although it deviates from my primary point concerning how the Apostle Paul was infallibly inspired by the Shekhinah Spirit of God to use the word katargeō exactly as he did in the “love” verses of 1 Corinthians 13, you mentioned the following:

According to the earliest testimony, John wrote the Revelation about 96 C.E., approximately 26 years after the destruction of Jerusalem. This would be toward the close of the reign of Emperor Domitian. In verification of this, Irenaeus in his “Against Heresies” (V, xxx) says of the Apocalypse (Revelation): “For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign.”

Eusebius and Jerome both agree with this testimony.

Men have written that Irenaeus was born in Izmir, Turkey in 130AD, and Eusebius in Caesarea Maritima (or Caesarea Palestinae) in circa 260 to 265AD and Jerome in Stridon, Slovenia in circa 347AD, all which were born during a tumultuous and severely persecuted time in the history of Jesus' Church.

Have you ever read where any of these ancient writer-historians knew someone who "personally" knew John the Evangelist, the author of Revelation?

I have never been able to determine a full answer to this question concerning any of the early writer-historians, and so I know there are lots of doctrines of men that well meaning men write about that we oftentimes must sort through, as Paul and Peter also had to continually do this when they both cautioned against believing in cunningly devised Jewish fables that do not promote God's Holiness within Jesus' Church, similar to what I and I am sure you also have had to oftentimes do.

My present view is that from an analysis of the personality and writing style changes between The Book of Revelation and the other writings of the obviously converted John the Apostle, I presently believe that the writer of Revelation was not the Apostle John, but was an Evangelist whose name was also John.

From your own understandings, could this view be correct?

I thank you greatly for your post and hope to hear back from you soon.

Shalom in Jesus,
A Servant of Jesus Christ
John 10&15&17 & Revelation 21 & John 16:13-14

John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


PS Thank you everyone for your posts. They will eventually be helpful to everyone who might someday read this thread.



PPS any further "edifying", "wholesome" and helpful comments anyone?

PPPS I prefer the following transliteration of the above scripture

John 16:13-14 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. He shall glorify Me: for He shall receive of Me, and shall shew it unto you.

 

[veteran]

Let's see if you're really reading the Revelation Scripture as written:

Since the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit is who kills God's two witnesses in Jerusalem, ON the 2nd Woe period

This is simply wrong, because you haven't recognized a parenthesis. There is no mention of the two witnesses before chapter 11:3. This is where they show up. Chapters 11-13 are MIDPOINT chapters.

The 1st Woe begins back at Rev.8:13 and into the Rev.9 chapter.

The 2nd Woe begins at Rev.9:12 and flows all... the way into Rev.11 to the 14th verse.

The Rev.10 chapter is parenthetical.


THIS IS 2ND WOE TIMING:

Rev 11:7-8
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
(KJV)

That means at the very END of the latter 1260 days period. That is STILL 2nd Woe - 6th Trumpet timing. The events between that and the coming of the 3rd Woe - 7th Trumpet happen within 3.5 days.

The 'abomination' was setup at the start of the 2nd Woe period back at the START of the 6th Trumpet. From Rev.9:12 all the way... to Rev.11:14 is 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing, and is linked to the tribulation timing.




Chapter 8 - beginning - - chapter 11 midpoint - - chapter 16- END.

Rev.11:15 is 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe timing, and is 7th Vial timing.

The previous 6 Vials ALL... occur within the Rev.9:12 to Rev.11:14 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing.

The Rev.16 battle of Armageddon on the 7th Vial is... 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe timing, that's when Christ comes to end the tribulation and gather His Church to go to Jerusalem.

Hi Guestman,

Although it deviates from my primary point concerning how the Apostle Paul was infallibly inspired by the Shekhinah Spirit of God to use the word katargeō exactly as he did in the “love” verses of 1 Corinthians 13, you mentioned the following:




Men have written that Irenaeus was born in Izmir, Turkey in 130AD, and Eusebius in Caesarea Maritima (or Caesarea Palestinae) in circa 260 to 265AD and Jerome in Stridon, Slovenia in circa 347AD, all which were born during a tumultuous and severely persecuted time in the history of Jesus' Church.

Have you ever read where any of these ancient writer-historians knew someone who "personally" knew John the Evangelist, the author of Revelation?

I have never been able to determine a full answer to this question concerning any of the early writer-historians, and so I know there are lots of doctrines of men that well meaning men write about that we oftentimes must sort through, as Paul and Peter also had to continually do this when they both cautioned against believing in cunningly devised Jewish fables that do not promote God's Holiness within Jesus' Church, similar to what I and I am sure you also have had to oftentimes do.

My present view is that from an analysis of the personality and writing style changes between The Book of Revelation and the other writings of the obviously converted John the Apostle, I presently believe that the writer of Revelation was not the Apostle John, but was an Evangelist whose name was also John.

From your own understandings, could this view be correct?

I thank you greatly for your post and hope to hear back from you soon.

Shalom in Jesus,
A Servant of Jesus Christ
John 10&15&17 & Revelation 21 & John 16:13-14

John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


PS Thank you everyone for your posts. They will eventually be helpful to everyone who might someday read this thread.



PPS any further "edifying", "wholesome" and helpful comments anyone?

PPPS I prefer the following transliteration of the above scripture

John 16:13-14 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. He shall glorify Me: for He shall receive of Me, and shall shew it unto you.

See Polycarp

Irenaneaus, Jerome, and Tertullian all testify of him as a disciple of Apostle John.

 

[AServantofJC]

See Polycarp

Irenaneaus, Jerome, and Tertullian all testify of him as a disciple of Apostle John.

Thanks veteran for your helpful post.


To "maybe" sway others to my view until more love and logic and documentation would convince me otherwise I am posting that:

Tertullian "was raised in Carthage in a suburb of Tunis, Tunisia" and "was born in circa 160AD"

AND

Polycarp "was born in 69AD" "and it is recorded by Irenaeus, who heard him speak in his youth, and by Tertullian, that he had been a disciple of John the Apostle."

So Polycarp seems to be a major person of interest. But I wonder if Polycarp wrote in the first person that he knew the Apostle John, and especially that in these personal-encounters that he learned that the Apostle John wrote The Book of Revelation "BofR" when he was maybe in his 60s, OR was he in his 90s when he was working as a quarry slave on the Isle of Patmos when he wrote the entire BofR, OR whether these are men's "legends" promoted by the-devil Beelzebub, figuratively the Lord of the Flies, in order to promote more doctrines-of-men that are continually causing "fights" against the good-works of Holiness being mentored within the Church of our Lord Christ Jesus. Hmmm.

Something to think about - which brings me back to my own current views and previous question that were posted earlier, and again below for those who might consider posting their own research, whereby "in a multitude of counselors there is 'always' wisdom", even if that wisdom is one voice within thousands of voices, like Jeremiah's voice was in his day.


<><>
Have you ever read where any of these ancient writer-historians knew someone who "personally" knew John the Evangelist, the author of Revelation?

I have never been able to determine a full answer to this question concerning any of the early writer-historians, and so I know there are lots of doctrines of men that well meaning men write about that we oftentimes must sort through, as Paul and Peter also had to continually do this when they both cautioned against believing in cunningly devised Jewish fables that do not promote God's Holiness within Jesus' Church, similar to what I and I am sure you also have had to oftentimes do.

My present view is that from an analysis of the personality and writing style changes between The Book of Revelation and the other writings of the obviously converted John the Apostle, I presently believe that the writer of Revelation was not the Apostle John, but was an Evangelist whose name was also John.
<><>


Again, I /we thank you greatly for your post veteran and hope to hear back from you or someone else on this very important topic very soon.


Shalom in Jesus,
A Servant of Jesus Christ
John 10&15&17 & Revelation 21 & John 16:13-14

 

[Guestman]

The real issue is not when the apostle John wrote the book of Revelation (Polycarp [69 ?-Feb 23,155 C.E., born at Smyrna, (the modern-day Turkish city of Izmir)] was noted as a student of the apostle John, and so had association with him before John's death in about 100 C.E.), but rather understanding and making application of its words and symbolisms.

We should work at not being guilty of ' straining out the gnat and gulping down the camel.' (Matt 23:24) Or as the apostle Paul wrote: "We also entreat you not to accept the undeserved kindness of God and miss its purpose."(2 Cor 6:1)


Hence, it is vital that a person not deeply concern himself when Revelation was penned (though the evidence points to 96 C.E.), but of gaining insight into what is meant by what John wrote down. Revelation 1:3 reads: "Happy is he who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and who observe the things written in it; for the appointed time is near."


The future setting for Revelation begins with "the Lord's day" (Rev 1:10), the time frame beginning with the installation of Jesus as king of God's kingdom in 1914. These are events and situations that have an impact on God's "slaves the things that must shortly take place [and expressed in "signs" or symbolisms]".(Rev 1:1)

 

[AServantofJC]

The real issue is not when the apostle John wrote the book of Revelation, but rather understanding and making application ....

We should work at not being guilty of ... as the apostle Paul wrote: "We also entreat you not to accept the undeserved kindness of God and miss its purpose."(2 Cor 6:1)

Hence, it is vital that a person not deeply concern himself when Revelation was penned, but of gaining insight into what is meant by what John wrote down. Revelation 1:3 reads: "Happy is he who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and who observe the things written in it; for the appointed time is near."

Thanks for your help Guestman,


That I hope will sway me/us back on track to what really matters concerning my/our future choices to be Holy and knowledgeable and eternally-fruitful as our Father God would desire us to be.


This is my earlier question - reworded from the post #46 above.

<><>
Would you, or any other reader, know of anyone (besides myself), who has ever re-considered their previous views after they did a study on the Greek word katargeō in 1Corinthians 13?
<><>

OR has anyone ever seen anything posted concerning this particular word katargeo and how it would likely apply to our Father God's sovereign choices to glorify Himself with how He wishes to “use” apocalyptic prophetic scriptures to be a “blessing” to “all” of His prodigal children, especially since I who am not a miniscule of “good” as God is good would also hope that Revelation 1:3 would eventually become fulfilled in this way?



Rather than to complacently-allow the-devil, the-evil-one Beelzebub, to promote a lethargic-fatalism and a curse upon mankind, whenever the evil one(s) would use scripture to seduce unconverted-men to promote, endorse, or capitulate to the fulfillment of the worst-case in the apocalyptic prophecies, which would then cause the destruction of the most souls as might be possible, simply via how prophecies are “interpreted” to become fulfilled by some souls.


This is apparently the way the-evil-one used The Book of Revelation in the 1930's to cause much of the German Church to become fatalistic, or fearful, or too lethargic to be willing to stand against Hitler's seductions, since many of them thought that God's angels would fulfill scriptures concerning the anti-christ, without the help of their various Church Communities. There were courageous souls that were exceptions to this rule, but they were too rare to make much of a difference in that day, whereby much of Berlin and Germany were obliterated as a result of their Church's complacency to not rise up and be Holy and courageous to the death, or to do whatever was required in order to change their prodigal country to do more of God's perfect will in that day by obeying the simplicity of the Golden Rule and the Great Commission.


Without pointing fingers, the worst case fulfillment of the apocalyptic prophecies is apparently what some of today's middle-eastern religious communities believe must also occur before “Isa” - Jesus Christ of Nazareth can return, and they are reportedly spending considerable manpower, resources and money in order to cause as much chaos and destruction as they are able, excepting for the intervention of God's Matthew 5 “children” who by their courageous acts are quelling much of this terror and destruction from being able to occur.


Thanks again for your post that made me re-ask my primary-question once again.


Shalom in Jesus,
A Servant of Jesus Christ
John 10&15&17 & Revelation 12:11 & 21:24 & John 16:13-14


PS In my view the simplicity of the Golden Rule and the Great Commission is taught best within Leviticus 19:17-18 and Matthew 28:18-20. It is a shame that this simple rule is only written once within "all" of the Old Testament Scriptures that we have today within our King James Bible, but for some discerning Jews it was probably only one of the two laws they wrote on their "required" personal phylactery.



PPS any further "edifying", "wholesome" and helpful comments anyone?

 

[veteran]

Thanks for your help Guestman,


That I hope will sway me/us back on track to what really matters concerning my/our future choices to be Holy and knowledgeable and eternally-fruitful as our Father God would desire us to be.


This is my earlier question - reworded from the post #46 above.

<><>
Would you, or any other reader, know of anyone (besides myself), who has ever re-considered their previous views after they did a study on the Greek word katargeō in 1Corinthians 13?
<><>

OR has anyone ever seen anything posted concerning this particular word katargeo and how it would likely apply to our Father God's sovereign choices to glorify Himself with how He wishes to “use” apocalyptic prophetic scriptures to be a “blessing” to “all” of His prodigal children, especially since I who am not a miniscule of “good” as God is good would also hope that Revelation 1:3 would eventually become fulfilled in this way?

Seems you're struggling with that Greek word and usage, but I don't know why. All that 1 Cor.13:8 Scripture is saying is that even prophecy will eventually lose it's purpose once the event happens, or passes away in history. (Not all prophecy, but the majority of prophecies). It's translated in other places in the KJV as "of none effect", 'abolished', 'I put away', 'come to nought', 'without effect', etc.

It just means, it's over when it's over.

 

[AServantofJC]

Seems you're struggling with that Greek word and usage, but I don't know why. All that 1 Cor.13:8 Scripture is saying is that even prophecy will eventually lose it's purpose once the event happens, or passes away in history. (Not all prophecy, but the majority of prophecies). It's translated in other places in the KJV as "of none effect", 'abolished', 'I put away', 'come to nought', 'without effect', etc.

It just means, it's over when it's over.

God Bless you veteran,

I believe that it is a rare view to understand that some scriptural prophecies will never be fulfilled, when the perfect-mature event of 1 Corinthians 13:8 would have caused many of them to fail-katargeo.

My own culture has always insisted that since all of the previous historical prophecies of Isaiah and Daniel had been so accurately fulfilled in the past, then every future prophecy "must" also be fulfilled in order for our Father God to not break-His-word that was written via a "prophet". I was so convinced of this that I began to minister this message to someone with a Jewish lineage, and then learned that many people have recognized that in their view all of Daniel's "fulfilled" prophecies were written after they occurred by a writer who wrote about Daniel several hundred years later when He had become a legend within the Macabean culture around 200 to 50 BC. The main point they made to convince me of this was that the most important King in the Book of Daniel was not listed in the historical record to have become the King until about two generations after the writer began saying He was king within The Book of Daniel.

Even with this "thought" in my psyche, it was not until I grappled with the word katargeo that I truly was able to finally be set free from the stresses I had over my previous view that as per the Book of Revelation 1/3rd of mankind "must" suddenly perish before Jesus could set up His Kingdom in our world. Unfortunately although I understand this rare view now, that the 1/3rd prophecy "should" someday fail-katargeo because our father God has 'always" planned that He would be glorified in a much greater way via revealing His immeasurable mercy rather than through "judgement" upon sin, (which will then fulfill the prophetic promise that "mercy triumphs over judgement"), much of the rest of my culture, and apparently also many in the Muslim culture, especially in the war torn middle-east, still are being seduced to believe that this prophecy must be literally fulfilled before Isa-Jesus of Nazareth the Son of the Virgin Mary can come again to rule and reign. And so these zealous Muslims are helping to bring chaos and terror with their resources, and yet my own culture is also helping the devil by being complacent in how they oftentimes minister the gospel of Jesus and about His kingdom of love to our world; since their own "gospel-message" has oftentimes become one of God's harsh judgment on mankind's sins, that in my view the devil has truly been the main culprit to have seduced so many to choose the pleasures of sin for a season rather than the continual joy of God's Holiness flowing through their life.

So I have begun to again to proclaim good news and a message of peace rather than a message of wrath, which has truly helped my own health and strength to return recently.

Bless you again for your response, you are giving me hope that the Holy Spirit is continually teaching others what I have been taught that set me free to be more fruitful again - I think, so that I am not totally solo in my present view.

So again I sincerely thank you again for your post.

Shalom in Jesus,
A Servant of Jesus Christ
John 10&15&17 & Revelation 12:11 & 21:24 & John 16:13-14

PS I thank everyone for your posts, they have all been helpful to me and likely many others some day.

PPS any further "edifying", "wholesome" and helpful comments anyone?

 

[veteran]

God Bless you veteran,

I believe that it is a rare view to understand that some scriptural prophecies will never be fulfilled, when the perfect-mature event of 1 Corinthians 13:8 would have caused many of them to fail-katargeo.

I don't think you understood. My meaning of excluding some prophecies was only in the sense of ending.

The coming of Christ's Kingdom de facto on earth is a Bible prophecy, and it will... be fulfilled. But of course the Kingdom will NEVER end.

So does that mean the prophecy about it keeps going on being continuously fulfilled? In a way, YES.

That was my meaning.

 

[AServantofJC]

Hi all,

Would anyone who would eventually read this besides myself have ever re-considered their previous view of our Father God's sovereign decisions concerning apocalyptic scripture after doing a study on the Greek word katargeo-fail in 1 Corinthians 13, especially since this is what Paul was obviously referring to when he used this particular word?

OR has anyone ever seen anything posted concerning how the word katargeō-fail might be applied to promote a best-case interpretation of apocalyptic scripture? Whereby some “lay-evangelists” might more convincingly use it to proclaim Jesus' good-news-gospel of mercy, peace and reconciliation towards “all” of prodigal mankind, whenever our Father God's sovereignty would allow many “judgment” prophecies that fallible but inerrantly inspired men wrote 2000 years ago to katargeo-fail.

OR has anyone ever seen anything posted concerning this particular word katargeō-fail and how it would likely apply to our Father God's sovereign choices to glorify Himself with how He will eventually “use” apocalyptic prophetic scriptures to become a good-news-gospel “blessing” to “all” of His prodigal children? Especially since I who am not a miniscule of “good” as our Father God is “good” would also hope that Revelation 1:3 would be fulfilled in this way.

Thank you everyone for your posts. They will eventually be helpful to everyone who might someday read this thread.

Shalom in Jesus,
A Servant of Jesus Christ
John 10&15&17 & Revelation 21 & John 16:13-14

John 16:13-14 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for He shall receive of me, and shall shew it unto you.


PS any further "edifying", "wholesome" and helpful comments anyone?

 

[AServantofJC]

PPS

Whenever God's Holy Spirit first began to teach me to rightly divide various doctrines-of-men that would promote bigotries, bitterness, arrogance and unholiness that resulted from various men's interpretations of the scriptures, from all the eternal logos-rhema-doctrines-from-God, that would promote loving-holiness towards our Father God and “all” of mankind, the following verses in Romans 3 were enlightened to me in a strong way; Which then helped me to more easily discern the various burnable tares and weeds within all the infallible scriptures in the sixty-six books of our modern Bible.

Romans 3: 3-4, 10-12, 17 (3) For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? (4) God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar. . . . (10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. . . . (17) And the way of peace have they not known.

So when Paul taught that “God is true and every man a liar”, I took his “prophecy” very very literally.

And then I was able to understand that the Old Testament scriptures as they had been modified or initially written by various unholy or unconverted men and scribes [see Matthew 11:11] is what the devil Beelzebub used to seduce Paul concerning our Father God to not be good and loving and unchanging all-the-time, when at one time he saw our eternal God as a warrior-God, and being oftentimes unloving, and oftentimes whimsically legalistic, and where “merciful-love” had no large share of our Father God's character and eternal nature.

Yet after Paul saw Jesus personally, his former view of Jesus' Father God in Heaven rapidly began to radically change until the Gentile world was substantially transformed as a result of his life efforts when he began to continuously yield himself to our Father God's Holy Spirit of prudent-wisdom and understanding.

Jesus promised that greater things would we do than HE was able to see accomplished, after the Holy Spirit would come and begin to reveal the truth about God's love into the hearts of good men. This is my hope today.

Thank you everyone for your posts. They will eventually be helpful to everyone who might someday read this thread.

Shalom in Jesus,
A Servant of Jesus Christ
John 10&15&17 & Revelation 21 & John 16:13-14


John 16:13-14 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for He shall receive of me, and shall shew it unto you.

Zechariah 4:6&10 (6) Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts. . . . (10) For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see . . . the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth ... to show himself mighty in behalf of those whose hearts are completely His. 2Chronicles 16:9

Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

PPPS any further "edifying", "wholesome" and helpful comments anyone?

 

[Rex]

So, you don't recall in Daniel about the false one that makes a league in Jerusalem and places the abomination idol for false worship? nor Apostle Paul's warning in 2 Thess.2:4 about the false one coming to sit in the temple and play God??? The early Church fathers understood Paul the same way I do about that coming of a specific Antichrist to sit in a temple in Jerusalem prior to Christ's coming. They looked for him in their day, and the Reformers thought they'd found him in the pope in their days, but here we are, it's 2013, and the parameters of that prophecy still has not happened yet.

Our Lord Jesus also warned us about that event of a coming false one and the setting up of an idol inside the "holy place" for all to bow in worship to (Matt.24). He was giving us the signs of the very end there, not signs for 70 A.D. The "abomination of desolation" event did NOT occur in 70 A.D. by the Romans. Instead, per the Jewish historian Josephus, the 2nd temple burned down before the Roman army could get possession of it. Some folk's idea of Roman banner worship in 70 A.D. is just a counter by those on the false Preterist doctrines of men. The placing of the "abomination of desolation" per the Book of Daniel is a very specific event that requires a standing Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and an altar, etc.
Rev 11:1-3
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(KJV)

The temple of God is to mark just which... kind of temple, for there have been many pagan temples in John's era too. That is pointing to a temple in Jerusalem associated with the Jews worshipping in it.

Per that Rev.11 Scripture, the Gentiles are given the outer court only, while others "worship" in that temple. And those Gentiles are given to tread the holy city (Jerusalem) for 42 months. That definitely places this temple here... on earth. So where... is the idea of the destruction of that temple there? No such idea of destruction of a temple is written anywhere in that.

Along with that 42 months timing, God's two witnesses are there given to prophesy for 1260 days. Those two timings are the SAME amount of time. One is given in months (lunar), and the other is given in days (solar). Later in Rev.13 we're told the "dragon" is given to reign for 42 months. That's the same timing schedule.

Also, God's two witnesses are prophesying dressed in sackcloth. That was an Old Testament practice to show shame and mourning, i.e., wearing sackcloth and ashes. That's yet another way we know this temple is on earth. The reason they're mourning is because of this period being the time when the final Antichrist siezes power in Jerusalem, and sets up idol worship inside a temple there, as per our Lord Jesus in Matt.24 about the "abomination of desolation" idol in the "holy place" which He quoted from the Book of Daniel.

Moreover, these events are on the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. And in a later verse we're even told that the beast ascends... from the bottomless pit to kill these two witnesses. And then by the sounding of the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe, all the kingdoms of this world are shown having become the kingdoms of The LORD and of His Christ. So the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing is signaling the "great tribulation" timing. The 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe is signaling the end of the tribulation.

Rev 11:1-3
Hears some numbers that would tend to indicate your futuristic fantasy is just that.

Dome of the rock construction started 688 - 691 built by the Umayyad caliph Abd al-Malik from 688 to 691

I just did a bit of number crunching, I subtracted 1260 years from 1948 and found 688 AD then I googled 688 AD historical events and guess what 688 is the year of the beginning of construction on the Muslims dome of the rock, Gentiles.
That is using Jewish 30 day months, now If I take 42 months x 30.44 solar days/ month, I get 1278.48 "years" I subtract that from 1967 Jerusalem freed, and I get 688.5 AD again. How about that for accuracy

It amazes me that people can clearly see in Danial 9 and by Ezek that days represent years, but they insist it is days in Rev
Your whole BS prophesy is based on sand and and I'll show you that sand in Dan 9:24-27

You fall to see that Dan 9:27 is the Messiah not the anti-christ and the 70th week was fulfilled placing the last week into the future is a fools game you all play basted on a false understanding of Gabriel's message.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; - The confirmation of the promise to the Jews EXCLUSIVELY confirmed the 70th week Mark 1:15 to Acts 10:34
But in the middle of the week --------------------------------------He confirmed the New covenant Matthew 26:28
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.---------temple veil torn Matthew 27:51
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,-------see Retorbyters statement concerning this person"s"/ time/event its much better than mine. Matthew 23:38
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.” Destruction of the house Jesus left desolate 70AD

This promise for you and your people as Gabrael said, culminated on the 70th week starting with Mark 1:15 after receiving the HS Johns baptism, middle of the week Matthew 26:28 this EXCLUSIVE promise fulfilled was for the the Jews first for 7 years and then the Gentiles, Acts 9:15 Acts 10:34

It is not some future anti Christ prophesy and the 70th week has not been post poned "Displaced as in dispensation as in dispensationalism " otherwise it could never be called the 70th week to begin with.

It must just be an amassing coincidence the dates above or some prophesy has been fulfilled in the last 2000 years, I'm telling you the Gods time clock Israel didn't stop at the 69th week, to be restarted in the future.

And before veterans hair catches on fire and he starts accusing me of believing all sorts of things I have not mentioned here, the man made term is not futurist or preterist it's historicism and the Lord has not returned, has He. That's a no brainer. Just keep packing all of Rev into your 7 or 3.5 year time period that's futurism. That time robbed from Christ in Danial 9:27

Leviticus 16:16-17 KJV
16. And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
17. And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.

That portion underlined in the above passage concerns everyone who is a member of the commonwealth of Israel. Yet the final Atonement comes for each in his or her own appointed times, (and a son is born into the Kingdom). The same is the Great Day and Hour which no man knows, not even the angels of heaven; but the Father only, (whether in the body, or whether out of the body, not I know; YHWH knows). But first it must be determined whether or not you have "leprosy" in the walls of your house; and if you do, then it needs to be determined whether your house needs to be completely demolished or not. Hopefully you do not have that "fretting leprosy" of the Girgashite genos-kind which I had; for when a "double legion" gets into your walls there is nothing that can bind that one and the time is short from there. See Leviticus 14:33-57, Zechariah 5:1-4, and Revelation 6:1-17, for truly according to Torah all of the contents inside the house MUST be removed before the Priest comes in to do the final Atonement so that the "contents of the house" be not made unclean, (Leviticus14:36). No man is allowed inside HIS OWN HOUSE while the ceremony is performed, (Leviticus 16:17 quoted herein once more). I believe you and your modern shepherd teachers call it the Rapture, which is correct, except for the fact that your carcass-house will not be going up with your soul to stand upon a Molten Sea of glass having been mingled with baptismal fire. Therefore heed the commandment and rehearse that Great Day of Atonement by AFFLICTING your own soul; for there is no greater tribulation than that time, nor shall there ever be. If indeed you overcome in your hour of trial then surely you will know what things I speak of from the Scripture herein; but for now you are correct in that Revelation 16 has not yet happened, for you.

.