Revelation was written during Nero's reign before 70AD

[Raeneske]

The day for a year concept only applies to Scripture where it is given, not to all prophecies in God's Word. To do otherwise is to cause conflicts with the timing of prophecy given with literal days.


In the Daniel 9 prophecy the idea of periods of sevens (week) is given, along with prophecy where start time depends upon a literal fulfillment, i.e., like the decree to build Jerusalem after the 70 years Babylon captivity (Dan.9:25). That's how we know the Daniel 9 prophecy weeks (or sevens) are meant as 7 year periods.

Can we hap-hazardly apply that to the Ezekiel prophecy you mentioned, or to other later prophecy in the OT? No.

The way we know the 1260 days in Revelation is in days is because of the final "one week" period of 7 years that's left in the Daniel 9 prophecy still yet to be fulfilled, because of the specific kind of events associated within that final "one week".

We are first shown about a period of 1260 days in Rev.11 involving God's two witnesses prophesying in Jerusalem. Associated with that period is the forty two months in that same chapter, which is also linked later in Rev.13 with the time the dragon is given power over the saints (Rev.13:5-7). That relates directly back to the timing in Daniel 7:25, i.e., the "time and times and dividing of time", which is equal in time to the 1260 days or 42 months in Revelation.

All 1260 day periods refer to Daniel 7:25. They are all talking about the same event.

Daniel 9:25 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

In no way can the last seven years of this prophecy still be waiting to be fulfilled. Israel had 490 years, not 483 + around two thousand + seven. If this prophecy was a conditional prophecy like the prophecy the prophet Jonah had to deliver to the inhabitants of Nineveh, it would have stopped if the Jews didn't reject Christ. 490 years were determined upon the Jews and their city like Nineveh would have been destroyed in 40 days (Jonah 3:4). So both were offered time to repent. What happened with Nineveh?

Jonah 3:5-10 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. 6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. 7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:8 but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. 9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

They repented, and God repented of the evil that he said he would do to them. However, as we know with Jerusalem that did not happen. So what reason would the time prophecy have stopped?

 

[veteran]

All 1260 day periods refer to Daniel 7:25. They are all talking about the same event.

And the events of the Dan.7:25 verse are connected with the events of Dan.9 and the later Dan.11 & 12 chapters about the end.

Daniel 9:25 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

In no way can the last seven years of this prophecy still be waiting to be fulfilled. Israel had 490 years, not 483 + around two thousand + seven. If this prophecy was a conditional prophecy like the prophecy the prophet Jonah had to deliver to the inhabitants of Nineveh, it would have stopped if the Jews didn't reject Christ. 490 years were determined upon the Jews and their city like Nineveh would have been destroyed in 40 days (Jonah 3:4). So both were offered time to repent. What happened with Nineveh?

Yes it can, because the Dan.9 chapter is not the final... chapter of the Book of Daniel describing events of the final "one weeK". Daniel 7 goes with those events for the end because of the timing given for the end as in these underlined verses...

Dan 7:19-27
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, Whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.
(KJV)

That last phrase "and all dominions shall serve and obey Him" is very specific as to the time, because even to this day all kingdoms on earth have yet to serve God and His Son. That is pointing to Christ's future Millennium reign, which is when all the kingdoms of this world become The Father's and His Son on the 7th trumpet (Rev.11:15).

Also, the subject of those ten kings and another one over them that comes to power is one of the subjects Christ gave in Revelation 17 about the end of this present world.

And furthermore, Nineveh repented, Jerusalem did not and was thus destroyed in 70 A.D. by the Romans with sacrifices and the temple worship ending. Yet the Daniel 9 and linked Daniel 11 & 12 events speak of a time of later sacrifices and the coming of a "vile person" that will end them and place the abomination that maketh desolate. That event did not occur in 70 A.D. Jerusalem by the Romans. But we have a blueprint already, Antiochus in 165 B.C. Jerusalem. But it cannot be him, because Christ gave the warning of the abomination idol being setup at a later time after His Ministry. Antiochus IV had long since been dead when Jesus gave that prophecy from the Book of Daniel (Matt.24:15).

What the Scripture is pointing to is the rebuilding of another temple in Jerusalem for the end of this world, and old covenant sacrifices starting up again, and then the "vile person" of Dan.11 coming to end the daily sacrifices and instead place the abomination that makes desolate, which is about an idol image, the beast image Christ warned us of at the end of Rev.13. Just so happens the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem have the materials ready to build this next temple in Jerusalem, and have been preparing the temple articles of old covenant worship, selecting priests for that service, etc. That is no longer a mystery today.

 

[Raeneske]

And the events of the Dan.7:25 verse are connected with the events of Dan.9 and the later Dan.11 & 12 chapters about the end.


Yes it can, because the Dan.9 chapter is not the final... chapter of the Book of Daniel describing events of the final "one weeK". Daniel 7 goes with those events for the end because of the timing given for the end as in these underlined verses...

Dan 7:19-27
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, Whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.
(KJV)

That last phrase "and all dominions shall serve and obey Him" is very specific as to the time, because even to this day all kingdoms on earth have yet to serve God and His Son. That is pointing to Christ's future Millennium reign, which is when all the kingdoms of this world become The Father's and His Son on the 7th trumpet (Rev.11:15).

Also, the subject of those ten kings and another one over them that comes to power is one of the subjects Christ gave in Revelation 17 about the end of this present world.

And furthermore, Nineveh repented, Jerusalem did not and was thus destroyed in 70 A.D. by the Romans with sacrifices and the temple worship ending. Yet the Daniel 9 and linked Daniel 11 & 12 events speak of a time of later sacrifices and the coming of a "vile person" that will end them and place the abomination that maketh desolate. That event did not occur in 70 A.D. Jerusalem by the Romans. But we have a blueprint already, Antiochus in 165 B.C. Jerusalem. But it cannot be him, because Christ gave the warning of the abomination idol being setup at a later time after His Ministry. Antiochus IV had long since been dead when Jesus gave that prophecy from the Book of Daniel (Matt.24:15).

What the Scripture is pointing to is the rebuilding of another temple in Jerusalem for the end of this world, and old covenant sacrifices starting up again, and then the "vile person" of Dan.11 coming to end the daily sacrifices and instead place the abomination that makes desolate, which is about an idol image, the beast image Christ warned us of at the end of Rev.13. Just so happens the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem have the materials ready to build this next temple in Jerusalem, and have been preparing the temple articles of old covenant worship, selecting priests for that service, etc. That is no longer a mystery today.

I don't understand how you are linking Daniel 9 to Daniel 7, which are referring to completely different topics. Daniel 7 is talking about 4 ruling kingdoms that shall rule before Christ's return, and Daniel 9 is talking about Jerusalem and the people of Israel. I do not understand how 490 equates to 483+ around 2000 +7. I have not seen a single time prophecy stop like that save conditional ones. So while I agree that Daniel 7:27 has yet to happen, I disagree that this somehow means that Daniel 9 has stopped.

All 1260 day events refer to Daniel 7:25, not Daniel 9:27.

 

[veteran]

I don't understand how you are linking Daniel 9 to Daniel 7, which are referring to completely different topics.

For one, the subject idea of the "little horn" continues pas the Daniel 7 chapter, which is one way it links to Dan.9:27; Dan.8:11-13; Dan.11:31; and Dan.12:11...

Dan 8:9-12
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
(KJV)

Another way is how Dan.7 is giving events about the ten kings and "little horn" for the end, meaning the end of this world.

Dan 7:19-22
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
(KJV)


Another is the link to the 1260 days of which Dan.9:27 reveals as half of the "one week".

Dan 7:25-26
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
(KJV)

Daniel 7 is talking about 4 ruling kingdoms that shall rule before Christ's return,

In Rev.17 we have the same subject about the ten kings (horns) and how they give their power to the beast for one hour, so the Rev.13 chapter links with that prophecy, and Rev.13 links with the Daniel prophecy...

Rev 13:1-2
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
(KJV)

Christ made the Daniel prophecy about those beast kingdom symbols from Daniel 7 a part of His Revelation for events at the end of this world. Here's one of the main reasons...

Dan 2:32-35
32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,

That's 3 beast kingdoms represented so far there: 1 - head of gold; 2 - breast and arms of silver; 3 - belly and thighs of brass.

33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

Then there's 2 more: 4 - legs of iron; 5 - feet part of iron and part clay.

So that's a total of FIVE beast kingdoms, the final one to manifest at the very end for when Christ as this "stone" comes to smite the final one upon its feet, making the whole statue image tumble down... together...

Dan.2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
(KJV)

Dan 2:44
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
(KJV)

The most common interpretation of that has been that there's 4 beast kingdoms to manifest, which is what Dan.7 leads one to, yet there's actually 5 beast kingdoms in total that are to manifest, the final one being the one of ten toes of part iron mixed with clay. And the other parameter of this prophecy many often miss is right here in Dan.2, the fact that ALL... of the parts of that beast statue are to fall 'together' when Christ strikes it upon its feet at the end of this world.

This means, ALL... of the previous beast kingdoms of history, will be revived under that final one of ten toes of iron mixed with clay. That is pointing to the final 5th beast kingdom covering the whole earth for the end prior to Christ's return.

and Daniel 9 is talking about Jerusalem and the people of Israel.

Daniel 9 is indeed a prophecy specifically about the land of Israel and its people. But because Christ linked the prophecy to events in His Revelation about the coming false one given power to make war with the saints, all believers on earth will be affected, i.e., His Church. Likewise with Christ's second coming and gathering of His Church, all believers on Him will be affected, even though He is specifically returning to Jerusalem where He ascended from.

I do not understand how 490 equates to 483+ around 2000 +7. I have not seen a single time prophecy stop like that save conditional ones. So while I agree that Daniel 7:27 has yet to happen, I disagree that this somehow means that Daniel 9 has stopped.

What about the prophecy in Isaiah 61:1-2 where Jesus only read the part which was fulfilled at His first coming per His reading at the proclamation of His Ministry in Luke 4? He closed the Book without reading the last two phrases of Isaiah 61:2, because those last two phrases of "... , and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn," is for the time of His second coming.

Because of all the prophetic parameters given that's to be fulfilled in final per Dan.9:24 we know all of that has yet to be fulfilled today.

 

[Dan57]

What about the prophecy in Isaiah 61:1-2 where Jesus only read the part which was fulfilled at His first coming per His reading at the proclamation of His Ministry in Luke 4? He closed the Book without reading the last two phrases of Isaiah 61:2, because those last two phrases of "... , and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn," is for the time of His second coming.

Because of all the prophetic parameters given that's to be fulfilled in final per Dan.9:24 we know all of that has yet to be fulfilled today.

That's a very interesting notation, I hadn't noticed that before.. Isaiah 61 mentions the day of vengeance, but Jesus omitted the last half of the verse. Perhaps that's why the Jews didn't recognize who he was, they were likely looking for more of a military type of deliverer? I wonder if they'll recognize him the second time around?

 

[veteran]

That's a very interesting notation, I hadn't noticed that before.. Isaiah 61 mentions the day of vengeance, but Jesus omitted the last half of the verse. Perhaps that's why the Jews didn't recognize who he was, they were likely looking for more of a military type of deliverer? I wonder if they'll recognize him the second time around?

Well good. Now if anyone ever asks you about Biblical proof that some Bible prophecy can have period gaps in its times of fulfillment, then there it is, Isaiah 61 compared with Luke 4.

A passage in Zechariah 9 does this same thing as Isaiah 61:1-2.

Zech 9:9-10
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
(KJV)

The 9th verse is Christ's 1st coming.
The 10th verse is Christ's 2nd coming.

So just between those two verses there's something like a 2000+ year timeline gap. This is why it's so important to stay focused on the type of events given when studying the OT prophets and NT Books like Revelation, because it's the type of event which determines the timeline it belongs to, whether past, present, or future.

When our Lord Jesus returns, the unbelieving orthodox Jews will... not only recognize, but will 'know', Jesus of Nazareth is The Christ, Messiah. But by then it will be tool late, which is why Zech.12 shows they will be in a state of mourning for Him. The worst of it is how they will instead have went after the coming false messiah in His place, thinking the coming false one was Him. Many Christian brethren will likewise fall away to that deception, which is why I am urged to keep warning about it, just as the early Church fathers also did.
Zech 12:10
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon Me Whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
(KJV)

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Raeneske.

Numbers 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
Ezekiel 4:4-6 Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity. 5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. 6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

The day for a year principle applies in Revelation as well. We see this principle also in the book of Daniel chapter 9.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

There are 7 days per week, and each day in a week represents a year. 70 weeks is 490 days, which translates to 490 literal years.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Here we can see that in the midst of the week, the sacrifice and oblation shall cease. This refers to the final week of the 70 weeks. A week is 7 years. In the middle of that is 3 1/2 years.
The same principle applies to the 42 months = 3 1/2 years = 1260 days. 1260 days translates to 1260 literal years.

This is totally scrambled like eggs on the frying pan! The "1 day = 1 year" interpretation ONLY applies to those prophecies that SPECIFICALLY specify such an interpretation. As you have noted, it was specifically for Numbers 14:34 and for Ezekiel 4:4-6, but it was NOT to be taken as a perpetual principle!

Daniel 9:24-27 is based on the understanding of a Shabbat year. The word "weeks" in Hebrew is simply "Sevens" ("shaaVu`iym" pronounced "shaw-voo-(G)EEM"). That can be "Sevens" of days, like common "weeks" (which explains its translation in the KJV), or it can be "Sevens" of years. There is NOTHING in the passage that suggests that the "week" is a "seven of days," which then allows an interpretation of "1 day = 1 year." The "Seven" of years was already established in the Torah (Exodus 23:11; Leviticus 25:4; Deuteronomy 15:9). Indeed, the Jubilee (Yoviyl) is determined by seven of these "Sevens" (Leviticus 25:8-55)! Dani'el was given this "Seventy SEVENS" in response to his study of the Seventy years of Yirmeyahu's prophecy (Daniel 9:2; Jeremiah 25:11-12; 29:10). Thus, it has more to do with the seven-year cycle than it does some "1 day = 1 year" interpretation. We already have a straight "A --> D"; we don't need an "A --> B --> C --> D" end-around play!

Furthermore, it is just WRONG to suggest that all "prophetic years" are 360 days, that all "prophetic months" are 30 days, and that there are always 12 months in a year! They didn't have a calendar all figured out and written down; THEY WATCHED THE MOON for a month! THEY WATCHED THE SUN for a day! When the sun set and they could see the first three stars in the evening sky, THAT'S when the new day (yowm) began! They would watch when the moon's sliver disappeared in the sun's light in the early morning, and anticipate its reappearance. With the first sighting of the sliver of the moon in the evening sky, THAT'S when the new month (chodesh) would begin! The priests (cohaniym) even set certain persons with the best eyesight for the tasks! Overcast skies were a problem for them, and they had to make concessions when the new month was not visible until the second or third day when expected! THEY WATCHED FOR THE BUDS ON THE TREES for the first sign of spring, and they used this to determine the first month (of the religious year)!

It's OUR goofy calendar system that alternates months of 30 and 31 days with a 28- or 29-day month thrown in once a year! For calculation purposes today, the Jewish calendar (which is NOW written down and the calculations all figured out) has alternating 29- or 30-day months, but they are NOT consistently 30-day months!

Today, scientists and meteorologists have calculated a sidereal (that is, with respect to the vernal equinox) day of 23 hours, 56 minutes, 4.09054 seconds. They have also determined a sidereal year to be "365 days, 6 hours, 9 minutes, and 9.55 seconds in 1955, and increasing at the rate of 0.000095 seconds annually." That would calculate to 9.5556 seconds in 2014. We also know that the sidereal month is 27 days, 7 hours, 43 minutes, and 11.5 seconds, but the length of the average month figures for the additional motion of the earth around the sun. This is called the synodic month of 29 days, 12 hours, 44 minutes, and 3.33 seconds, which is approximately 29.5 days. (CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 69th edition, 1988-1989, Robert C. Weast, Ph.D., ed. et al., CRC Press, Inc., 1988, p. F-104.)

Therefore, these times were practically determined in a MUCH LESS COMPLICATED way, but the CALCULATIONS for these times must be figured in a MUCH MORE COMPLICATED way!

The 42 months DOES NOT EQUAL 3.5 years, and 3.5 years DOES NOT EQUAL 1,260 days! Nor does the 42 months equal 1,260 days! They are said three different ways because THEY ARE THREE DIFFERENT TIME PERIODS!!! Forty-two months at 29.5 days per month is only 1,239 days! And, since the synodic year is 365.2422 days long, a "time, times, and half a time" or 3.5 years is 1,278.3477 days! And, NONE of these should be considered as that many YEARS!

Shalom, again, Raeneske.

I don't understand how you are linking Daniel 9 to Daniel 7, which are referring to completely different topics. Daniel 7 is talking about 4 ruling kingdoms that shall rule before Christ's return, and Daniel 9 is talking about Jerusalem and the people of Israel. I do not understand how 490 equates to 483+ around 2000 +7. I have not seen a single time prophecy stop like that save conditional ones. So while I agree that Daniel 7:27 has yet to happen, I disagree that this somehow means that Daniel 9 has stopped.

All 1260 day events refer to Daniel 7:25, not Daniel 9:27.

You're right that Daniel 9 and Daniel 7 should NOT be linked together. I've been trying to tell those who believe they should and treat them as though they do for a long time now. However, there SHOULD be a gap of about 2,000 years inserted in the 490 "Sevens," not between the 69th and 70th "Sevens," but between the 69 Sevens and a HALF Seven and the last HALF of the 70th Seven! This is a gap that Yeshua` (Jesus) HIMSELF inserted because of their rejection of His offer of the Kingdom:

Daniel 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

Matthew 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

Thus, HE put the gap in the Sevens of years!

 

[AServantofJC]

Hi all,

Within the previous post #75 it was noted that in addition to the straightforward admonitions to the seven churches for them to “wake-up” “return-to-God” and “to-endure-to-the-end”, John gives another strong admonition to believers via Revelation 18:4 when he prophesies our Savior-God's imminent judgments with the words “And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, come out of her my people that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”

When John's writings were first circulated, Revelation 18:4 was a similar admonition as that of Jesus' teaching from the Book of Daniel decades earlier, so that believers would flee both Jerusalem and Rome long before Jerusalem was surrounded at the end of seven years of war, which then resulted in the holocaust and diaspora of 70 AD.

Similarly to John's day the admonition of Revelation 18:4 is yet appropriate today as believers are also warned by 1Peter 4:17 with the words “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?”

Righteous “judgments” in our world will rapidly occur when Jesus' will suddenly reveal His glory throughout the whole earth as a Day-Star in the Eastern Sky. Yet before that day if more church-going Christians would “come-out” from various antichrist organizations that promote “doctrines-of-men” that grieve the Holy Spirit's efforts to build up Jesus' inheritance in our world, or would promote excommunications that would hinder reconciling prodigals back to God, these organizations that have become apostate would either cease to exist and would cease from hindering God's work, or because of economics would change their leaders to those who would train ambassadors to “do” Jesus' Great Commission throughout the “whole” earth, which would then glorify our Creator God eternally.

During our sojourn in this fallen world the works-of-man will someday be burnt-up during the next sterilization event, but as 2 Timothy 2:2 encourages we should all seek out other believers who we could make an eternal covenant with during our lifetimes. Jesus encourages all “believers” to work alongside other noble and virtuous men who would strive to be holy and converted by daily “obeying” Jesus' simple commandments to love one's “neighbor” as oneself, and His Father God with “all” of one's heart, understanding, soul and strength.

It is only by “doing” Jesus' simple commands that our generation would build-up His inheritance in our world and we might then “glorify” our righteous Heavenly Father to our uttermost.

We are all in training to be a little more like Jesus every day, one day and one step at a time.

Again, thank you everyone for your posts and prayers. They will eventually be fruitful towards everyone who might someday read this thread.

Shalom in Jesus,
A Servant of Jesus Christ
AJCServant
John 10&15&17 & Revelation 21




Mark 12:33 KJV
And to love Him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.




Deuteronomy 6:5 KJV
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.




Hebrews 10:23-25 KJV
Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for He is faithful that promised and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


Matthew 5:14-16 KJV
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

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PPPS - Any further "edifying", "wholesome" and helpful comments anyone?

 

[veteran]

Shalom, Raeneske.


This is totally scrambled like eggs on the frying pan! The "1 day = 1 year" interpretation ONLY applies to those prophecies that SPECIFICALLY specify such an interpretation. As you have noted, it was specifically for Numbers 14:34 and for Ezekiel 4:4-6, but it was NOT to be taken as a perpetual principle!

Daniel 9:24-27 is based on the understanding of a Shabbat year. The word "weeks" in Hebrew is simply "Sevens" ("shaaVu`iym" pronounced "shaw-voo-(G)EEM"). That can be "Sevens" of days, like common "weeks" (which explains its translation in the KJV), or it can be "Sevens" of years. There is NOTHING in the passage that suggests that the "week" is a "seven of days," which then allows an interpretation of "1 day = 1 year." The "Seven" of years was already established in the Torah (Exodus 23:11; Leviticus 25:4; Deuteronomy 15:9). Indeed, the Jubilee (Yoviyl) is determined by seven of these "Sevens" (Leviticus 25:8-55)! Dani'el was given this "Seventy SEVENS" in response to his study of the Seventy years of Yirmeyahu's prophecy (Daniel 9:2; Jeremiah 25:11-12; 29:10). Thus, it has more to do with the seven-year cycle than it does some "1 day = 1 year" interpretation. We already have a straight "A --> D"; we don't need an "A --> B --> C --> D" end-around play!

Furthermore, it is just WRONG to suggest that all "prophetic years" are 360 days, that all "prophetic months" are 30 days, and that there are always 12 months in a year! They didn't have a calendar all figured out and written down; THEY WATCHED THE MOON for a month! THEY WATCHED THE SUN for a day! When the sun set and they could see the first three stars in the evening sky, THAT'S when the new day (yowm) began! They would watch when the moon's sliver disappeared in the sun's light in the early morning, and anticipate its reappearance. With the first sighting of the sliver of the moon in the evening sky, THAT'S when the new month (chodesh) would begin! The priests (cohaniym) even set certain persons with the best eyesight for the tasks! Overcast skies were a problem for them, and they had to make concessions when the new month was not visible until the second or third day when expected! THEY WATCHED FOR THE BUDS ON THE TREES for the first sign of spring, and they used this to determine the first month (of the religious year)!

It's OUR goofy calendar system that alternates months of 30 and 31 days with a 28- or 29-day month thrown in once a year! For calculation purposes today, the Jewish calendar (which is NOW written down and the calculations all figured out) has alternating 29- or 30-day months, but they are NOT consistently 30-day months!

Today, scientists and meteorologists have calculated a sidereal (that is, with respect to the vernal equinox) day of 23 hours, 56 minutes, 4.09054 seconds. They have also determined a sidereal year to be "365 days, 6 hours, 9 minutes, and 9.55 seconds in 1955, and increasing at the rate of 0.000095 seconds annually." That would calculate to 9.5556 seconds in 2014. We also know that the sidereal month is 27 days, 7 hours, 43 minutes, and 11.5 seconds, but the length of the average month figures for the additional motion of the earth around the sun. This is called the synodic month of 29 days, 12 hours, 44 minutes, and 3.33 seconds, which is approximately 29.5 days. (CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 69th edition, 1988-1989, Robert C. Weast, Ph.D., ed. et al., CRC Press, Inc., 1988, p. F-104.)

Therefore, these times were practically determined in a MUCH LESS COMPLICATED way, but the CALCULATIONS for these times must be figured in a MUCH MORE COMPLICATED way!

The 42 months DOES NOT EQUAL 3.5 years, and 3.5 years DOES NOT EQUAL 1,260 days! Nor does the 42 months equal 1,260 days! They are said three different ways because THEY ARE THREE DIFFERENT TIME PERIODS!!! Forty-two months at 29.5 days per month is only 1,239 days! And, since the synodic year is 365.2422 days long, a "time, times, and half a time" or 3.5 years is 1,278.3477 days! And, NONE of these should be considered as that many YEARS!

Shalom, again, Raeneske.


You're right that Daniel 9 and Daniel 7 should NOT be linked together. I've been trying to tell those who believe they should and treat them as though they do for a long time now. However, there SHOULD be a gap of about 2,000 years inserted in the 490 "Sevens," not between the 69th and 70th "Sevens," but between the 69 Sevens and a HALF Seven and the last HALF of the 70th Seven! This is a gap that Yeshua` (Jesus) HIMSELF inserted because of their rejection of His offer of the Kingdom:

Daniel 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

Matthew 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

Thus, HE put the gap in the Sevens of years!

Yet events given in Daniel 7, 8, 9, 11, and 12 are... linked together, for they all refer to the abomination of desolation event. No extra-curricular mathematics can take that away.

The idea of Dan.9:27 being about Christ in relation to ending the daily sacrifice and placing the abomination that makes desolate of Daniel is the gross aberration away from the meaning of those Scriptures.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

Yet events given in Daniel 7, 8, 9, 11, and 12 are... linked together, for they all refer to the abomination of desolation event. No extra-curricular mathematics can take that away.

The idea of Dan.9:27 being about Christ in relation to ending the daily sacrifice and placing the abomination that makes desolate of Daniel is the gross aberration away from the meaning of those Scriptures.

They may be roughly "linked together," but that doesn't mean that they are "linked" by the "abomination of desolation event!" That's just NUTS! They are "linked" on the WORDS "abomination" and "abominations" and "abominable" and "desolate" and "desolation" because good, fairly common, Hebrew words that SEEM similar because they are in the same word-family were translated by the SAME MEN who CREATED the "link" by their lack of vocabulary and creativity! And then, men who have an uncanny knack for tying things together that don't belong together will jump in and make the "connection!"

Daniel 2 talks about world history covering the Babylonian kingdom (the head of gold), the Medo-Persian kingdom (the chest and arms of silver), the Grecian Empire (the brass belly, loins, and thighs), the Roman Empire (the legs of iron), and the "revived Roman Empire" (the feet of iron and clay).

Daniel 7 talks about the four beasts, a lion with eagle wings, a bear raised up on one side, a leopard with four heads and four wings, and a female reptile ("slinking" and ["well-loined" or "slender-waisted"] and "intimidatingly powerful") different from the other beasts, i.e., neither mammal nor bird) with 10 horns and teeth of iron. If the first beast represents Babylon and the second beast represents Medo-Persia and the third beast represents Grecia (Macedonia), then the fourth beast should represent Rome, though many feel that it is also representing the "revived Roman Empire."

Daniel 8 zooms in on history and talks about the ram with two uneven horns and the rough he-goat (billy). This is a CLEAR representation of Medo-Persia and Grecia (Macedonia). (Particularly since it was SPELLED OUT FOR US in Dan. 8:20-21!) Here, the little horn is Antiochus IV "Epiphanes" again, an infamous character from Isra'el's history and foretold in this prophecy.

Daniel 9 zooms out to world history from the Hebrew perspective, starting with the 70 years of captivity and continuing with the 70 Sevens of years leading up to the Messiah.

Daniel 11 and 12 once again zooms in to the particulars of Isra'el's perspective of the captivity, particularly the portion yet to be fulfilled, and then zooms in on the 490 years leading up to the Messiah. Here, because they are part of the SAME CONTEXT, the words of Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11 SHOULD be connected, and they both refer to the acts of Antiochus IV "Epiphanes."

In my next post, I'm going to try to show you how these words are truly used within these various passages.

 

[veteran]

Shalom, veteran.


They may be roughly "linked together," but that doesn't mean that they are "linked" by the "abomination of desolation event!" That's just NUTS! They are "linked" on the WORDS "abomination" and "abominations" and "abominable" and "desolate" and "desolation" because good, fairly common, Hebrew words that SEEM similar because they are in the same word-family were translated by the SAME MEN who CREATED the "link" by their lack of vocabulary and creativity! And then, men who have an uncanny knack for tying things together that don't belong together will jump in and make the "connection!"

Not nuts, because a false one setting up of an abomination idol is a reoccuring theme throughout the Book of Daniel, even beginning with what king Nebuchadnezzar did with setting up a gold idol of himself for all to worship or be killed, a matter which would have even Daniel delivered up for refusing to bow to it (Dan.3). Thus our Heavenly Father Himself made the connection, for us, but you have apparently missed it.

And I will tell you what really is... NUTS! of how some interpret the Dan.9:27 Scripture. Some wrongly interpret that Dan.9:27 verse being about Christ Jesus ending the daily sacrifice and setting up abominations when it's actually about the false one of Dan.11 that does that.

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(KJV)

Our Lord Christ Jesus never did any such thing as ending the daily sacrifices AND overspreading of abominations in the temple, nor anywhere else. Instead, it's about the following "vile person" of Dan.11 that will do that...

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(KJV)

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

Not nuts, because a false one setting up of an abomination idol is a reoccuring theme throughout the Book of Daniel, even beginning with what king Nebuchadnezzar did with setting up a gold idol of himself for all to worship or be killed, a matter which would have even Daniel delivered up for refusing to bow to it (Dan.3). Thus our Heavenly Father Himself made the connection, for us, but you have apparently missed it.

And I will tell you what really is... NUTS! of how some interpret the Dan.9:27 Scripture. Some wrongly interpret that Dan.9:27 verse being about Christ Jesus ending the daily sacrifice and setting up abominations when it's actually about the false one of Dan.11 that does that.

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(KJV)

Our Lord Christ Jesus never did any such thing as ending the daily sacrifices AND overspreading of abominations in the temple, nor anywhere else. Instead, it's about the following "vile person" of Dan.11 that will do that...

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(KJV)

First of all, if you want to connect the words in Daniel 9:27 to "setting up abomination idols," then it would have to be the SELF-IDOLIZATION of the Scribes and Pharisees, for THAT is the "overspreading of abominations" to which Yeshua` referred. Matthew 23 is FULL of His condemnation of their rejection of Himself! It's not Yeshua` (Jesus) who caused the "overspreading of abominations." All He did was react to them by declaring them "DESOLATE!" The "overspreading" or the "spreading out like a wing" was done by the Scribes and Pharisees. They couldn't just reject Him themselves; they had to teach others to reject Him, as well!

Second, Yeshua` certainly DID "end the daily sacrifices!" Look, "sacrifices" are ONLY sacrifices IF GOD ACCEPTS THEM! When God no longer accepts the offerings as a sacrifice, then they are nothing more than slaughter and butchering. Look again CAREFULLY at Hebrews:

Hebrews 9:6-14, 23-28; 10:1-18
6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
...
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
KJV

So, can you see that once Yeshua` died as the Sacrifice literally to end all sacrifices, that God would no longer accept inferior sacrifices, which even in their turn were poor examples of what they represented? The ONLY reason why animal sacrifices were "accepted" a year at a time was because of how they represented what the Messiah was going to do! They were a PICTURE of the atonement that the Messiah was going to make, and that was their ONLY redeeming value to God!

Daniel 9:27 IS about Yeshua`s lifetime. Daniel 11:31 is NOT! Daniel 11 barely get's up to the point of the lifetime of Herod the Great and doesn't EVEN get up to the Messiah's lifetime! It's not until chapter 12 that we get up to Yeshua`s lifetime and beyond! We even see 70 A.D. talked about in verse 1! Then, he buzzes on past to the time of the resurrection of the righteous in verse 2!

 

[veteran]

The Daniel subject of Dan.9:27 with the one who overspreads abominations is about the event of Dan.11:

That's the one who is to end the daily sacrifice in Daniel.

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(KJV)

That specifically is the same one of Rev.13 who will exalt himself above God and make war with the saints at the end of this present world.

The scribes and Pharisees did no such setting up of an idol for worship in the temple. Nor did the Romans in 70 A.D. In Matt.23 Christ Jesus rebuked the scribes and Pharisees for their pomp and man-made traditions they held over the people.

The "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel is SPECIFICALLY about a false idol placed inside the temple in Jerusalem. It is one of the main themes of the whole Book of Daniel. It is one the main themes in Rev.13 with the setting up of the "image of the beast" in the very end of this present world prior to Christ's second coming. It is one of the main subjects of Ezekiel 8 which has never happened before in Israel's history, pointing to the very end, especially with the judgments in Ezekiel 9.

An idol setup in false worship is specifically how the temple in Jerusalem is 'polluted' which is what kind of desolation the "abomination of desolation" is about.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

The Daniel subject of Dan.9:27 with the one who overspreads abominations is about the event of Dan.11:

That's the one who is to end the daily sacrifice in Daniel.

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(KJV)

That specifically is the same one of Rev.13 who will exalt himself above God and make war with the saints at the end of this present world.

The scribes and Pharisees did no such setting up of an idol for worship in the temple. Nor did the Romans in 70 A.D. In Matt.23 Christ Jesus rebuked the scribes and Pharisees for their pomp and man-made traditions they held over the people.

The "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel is SPECIFICALLY about a false idol placed inside the temple in Jerusalem. It is one of the main themes of the whole Book of Daniel. It is one the main themes in Rev.13 with the setting up of the "image of the beast" in the very end of this present world prior to Christ's second coming. It is one of the main subjects of Ezekiel 8 which has never happened before in Israel's history, pointing to the very end, especially with the judgments in Ezekiel 9.

An idol setup in false worship is specifically how the temple in Jerusalem is 'polluted' which is what kind of desolation the "abomination of desolation" is about.

NO!!! There you go crossing that line again! Daniel 9 is not even CLOSE to being the same event in Daniel 11! You've got to start keeping the prophecies in Daniel separate as they were presented and understand the telescoping way that they unfold in human history!

Daniel 9 takes us up to the time of the Messiah being "cut off." Daniel 11 does not! It only takes us up to the time of Herod the Great! Daniel 11:31, therefore, is not about the distant future; it was about Antiochus IV Epiphanes of the Seleucid Empire and the devastation he caused in Isra'el and in the Temple! Furthermore, the numbers of days that are presented in Daniel 12 refer back to Daniel 11 and, therefore, have to do with the aftermath of Antiochus' devastation! THESE were the events which Dani'el's people would MORE IMMEDIATELY have to beware! The "abomination of desolation," as you call it, is NOT the "main theme of the book of Daniel," although the messengers sent to Dani'el were indeed focused on what Antiochus would do!

The three passages that use the words "shiqquwts" and "shomeem" do NOT use the words in the same way!

Daniel 9:27: ... v`al knaf shiqquwtsiym mshomeem ... ; ... and-upon a-spread-out-wing of-abominations (PLURAL) he-shall-make-desolate ...
Daniel 11:31: ...vnaatnuw hashiqquwts mshowmeem ... ; ... and-they-shall-set-up the-abomination (SINGULAR) that-makes-desolate ...
Daniel 12:11: ... vlaateet shiqquwts shomeem ... ; and-give an-abomination (SINGULAR) that-makes-desolate ...

Only one other place is ONE of the words used and that is ...

Daniel 8:13: ... ...`ad maatay hechaazown hataamiyd vhapesha` shomeem teet vqodesh vtsaaVaa' mirmaac... ; ... until when the-vision of-the-regular-sacrifice and-the-rebellion of-desolation to-give also-the-Holy-Place and-the-army to-be-trampled-under-foot ...

And, because of the context of Daniel 8, the ram and the goat vision, the horn that sprang from one of the four horns that came up after Greece's main horn was broken (Alexander the Great), this one too is talking about Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

Only Daniel 2 is talking about the history up to and including the rule of the Messiah, which now we know is yet in our future, as well.

 

[veteran]

Play on variances of Hebrews words within the Book of Daniel about the idea of abominations and desolations is just that, a play on words while completely missing the plain context such words are given in.

Dan 8:9-17
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
(KJV)

All these events about the daily sacrifice ending and the transgression upon the sanctuary are about the same event for the very end of this world. All these passages are synonomous to the same false one who will cause that event for the end in Jerusalem. The time of 2300 days when the sanctuary will be cleansed is synonomous with the end of the 70 weeks (or 70 sevens) period given Daniel in Dan.9:24.

Dan 9:26-27
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(KJV)

Same subject as the ending of the daily sacrifice and causing the "transgression of desolation" upon the sanctuary of the previous Dan.8 Scripture. It's simply given using a different combination of words, in this Dan.9 case as "the overspreading of abominations" is about the Dan.8 event of "transgression of desolation" upon the sanctuary, the same word used for the temple in Jerusalem.


Dan 11:21-23
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
(KJV)

That "vile person" is the same entity as that "he" of the Dan.9:27 verse, the one who will make the league with a small group, not Jesus. This "vile person" is that same "little horn" of the Dan.8 Scripture and what he does with ending the daily sacrifice and placing the abomination that maketh desolate is that same one of Dan.9:27 that will cause the overspreading of abominations in the sanctuary after he has ended the daily sacrifice in Jerusalem. as per this Dan.11 chapter in the next verses...
Dan 11:28-39
28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.
29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
(KJV)

That "vile person" is who ends the daily sacrifice and places the abomination... that makes desolate. Makes what desolate? The holy place of the temple in Jerusalem, which is what Christ Jesus was talking about...

Matt 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
(KJV)

The "holy place" is the very temple which Jesus and His disciples were overlooking while upon the Mount of Olives when Jesus gave them this warning. From that time He gave this to our day, this event has NEVER transpired! The 2nd temple burned down during battle for it in 70 A.D. before the Romans could sieze it, and per the Jewish historian Josephus, the Romans had the intent to capture the temple, not destroy it. So it was impossible for the Romans to fulfill this prophecy of placing that "abomination that makes desolate" in the "holy place" like Jesus said. It is NO coiencedence that the orthdox unbelieving Jews today have the materials ready to build a third temple in Jerusalem, and start up the old covenant animal sacrifices again.

Dan 12:1-4
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
(KJV)

At the start of Dan.12 the subject from the end of Dan.11 continues with, "And at that time". In Matthew 24 Jesus gave this very same "time of trouble" event as a sign for the very end...

Matt 24:21
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
(KJV)


Dan 12:6-13
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by Him That liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
(KJV)

Further in Dan.12 Daniel asks when these events shall be, and what shall be the end of them. He is told, "... for the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end." That is about the very end of this present world, not 70 A.D.

Then that event of the ending of the daily sacrifice and the abomination idol that makes desolate set up is mentioned once again, this time with a 30 day and a 45 day time period added to the last half of the Dan.9:27 "one week" (or one seven) that is 1260 days.

Thus all those Scriptures are tightly weaved together about the subject of a false one that will come to Jerusalem at the very end of this world and stop the daily sacrifices which today's Jews will institute again with a third temple, and he will instead place an abomination idol that will spiritually desolate the holy place of that temple. In Rev.13 that abomination idol is revealed by Christ as the "image of the beast".

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, AServantofJC, and Merry Christmas to you!

Hi all,

Would anyone who would eventually read this besides myself have ever re-considered their previous view of our Father God's sovereign decisions concerning apocalyptic scripture after doing a study on the Greek word katargeo-fail in 1 Corinthians 13, especially since this is what Paul was obviously referring to when he used this particular word?

OR has anyone ever seen anything posted concerning how the word katargeō-fail might be applied to promote a best-case interpretation of apocalyptic scripture? Whereby some “lay-evangelists” might more convincingly use it to proclaim Jesus' good-news-gospel of mercy, peace and reconciliation towards “all” of prodigal mankind, whenever our Father God's sovereignty would allow many “judgment” prophecies that fallible but inerrantly inspired men wrote 2000 years ago to katargeo-fail.

OR has anyone ever seen anything posted concerning this particular word katargeō-fail and how it would likely apply to our Father God's sovereign choices to glorify Himself with how He will eventually “use” apocalyptic prophetic scriptures to become a good-news-gospel “blessing” to “all” of His prodigal children? Especially since I who am not a miniscule of “good” as our Father God is “good” would also hope that Revelation 1:3 would be fulfilled in this way.

Thank you everyone for your posts. They will eventually be helpful to everyone who might someday read this thread.

Shalom in Jesus,
A Servant of Jesus Christ
John 10&15&17 & Revelation 21 & John 16:13-14

John 16:13-14 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for He shall receive of me, and shall shew it unto you.


PS any further "edifying", "wholesome" and helpful comments anyone?

Regarding 1 Corinthians 13:8, follow the word's meaning (using Strong's, for instance):

1 Corinthians 13:8
8 Hee agapee oudepote piptei;
eite de profeeteiai, katargeetheesontai;
eite gloosai, pausontai;
eite gnoosis, katargeetheesetai.
Greek New Testament

8 Hee = 8 The
agapee = love
oudepote = but-not-ever/never-at-all
piptei; = shall-fall;
eite = if-also
de = but
profeeteiai, = prophecies,
katargeetheesontai; = they-shall-be-idled-down/they-shall-be-delayed-down;
eite = if-also
gloosai, = languages,
pausontai; = they-shall-stopped/they-shall-be-restrained;
eite = if-also
gnoosis, = knowledge,
katargeetheesetai. = it-shall-be-idled-down/it-shall-be-delayed-down.

NT:2673 katargeoo (kat-arg-eh'-o); from NT:2596 and NT:691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively:
KJV - abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.

NT:2596 kata (kat-ah'); a primary particle; (prepositionally) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case [genitive case, dative case or accusative case] with which it is joined):
KJV - about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) alone, among, and, apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to touching), aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, [charita-] bly, concerning, covered, [daily-], down, every, (+far more) exceeding, more excellent, for, from ... to, godly, in (-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of), ... by, after the manner of, by any means, beyond (out of) measure, mightily, more, natural, of (up-) on (X part), out (of every), over against, (+your) own, particularly, so, through (-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-) to (-gether, -ward), uttermost, where (-by), with. In composition it retains many of these applications, and frequently denotes opposition, distribution, or intensity.

NT:691 argeoo (arg-eh'-o); from NT:692; to be idle, i.e. (figuratively) to delay:
KJV - linger.

NT:692 argos (ar-gos'); from NT:1 (as a negative particle) and NT:2041; inactive, i.e. unemployed; (by implication) lazy, useless:
KJV - barren, idle, slow.

NT:1 a (al'-fah); of Hebrew origin; the first letter of the alphabet; figuratively, only (from its use as a numeral) the first:
KJV - Alpha. Often used (usually an, before a vowel) also in composition (as a contraction from NT:427) in the sense of privation; so, in many words, beginning with this letter; occasionally in the sense of union (as a contraction of NT:260).

NT:427 aneu (an'-yoo); a primary particle; without:
KJV - without. Compare NT:1.

NT:2041 ergon (er'-gon); from a primary (but obsolete) ergo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:
KJV - deed, doing, labour, work.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

I believe that God KNEW that there would be some confusion on the “prophecies” portion; so, He made sure that the SAME WORD was used for the “knowledge” portion! Just as "knowledge" will not truly FAIL, neither will the prophecies! The word simply means that they will be DELAYED or SCALED BACK, "IDLED DOWN!"

It is still important that everyone understands, particularly the Jews, that God's Word NEVER FAILS! So, when He drives a prophet to write His prophecies, those words of prophecy WILL NEVER FAIL! They are not the words of the prophet; they are "Thus saith the LORD (YHWH), ADONAI!"

Isaiah 40:1-11
40 1 “Comfort and keep comforting my people,” says your God.
2 “Tell Yerushalayim to take heart; proclaim to her
that she has completed her time of service,
that her guilt has been paid off,
that she has received at the hand of Adonai
double for all her sins.”
3 A voice cries out:

“Clear a road through the desert for Adonai!
Level a highway in the ‘Aravah for our God!
4 Let every valley be filled in,
every mountain and hill lowered,
the bumpy places made level
and the crags become a plain.
5 Then the glory of Adonai will be revealed;
all humankind together will see it,
for the mouth of Adonai has spoken.”
6 A voice says, “Proclaim!”
And I answer, “What should I proclaim?”
“All humanity is merely grass,
all its kindness like wildflowers:
7 the grass dries up, the flower fades,
when a wind from Adonai blows on it.
Surely the people are grass!
8 The grass dries up, the flower fades;
but the word of our God will stand forever.”
9 You who bring good news to Tziyon,
get yourself up on a high mountain;
you who bring good news to Yerushalayim,
cry out at the top of your voice!
Don’t be afraid to shout out loud!
Say to the cities of Y’hudah,
“Here is your God!
10 Here comes Adonai Elohim with power,
and his arm will rule for him.
Look! His reward is with him,
and his recompense is before him.
11 He is like a shepherd feeding his flock,
gathering his lambs with his arm,
carrying them against his chest,
gently leading the mother sheep.”
CJB

Never let it be said that God failed to cover all His bases!

 

[AServantofJC]

Hi all,

Thanks for your efforts everyone, we are all learning and growing “into the grace and knowledge of the Lord” and need good mentor-teachers along the way, so I thank everyone for all their studious teaching efforts and prayer-seekings and encouragements in my/our behalf. [2 Peter 3:18]

A previous author stated concerning katargeo that:

I believe that God KNEW that there would be some confusion on the “prophecies” portion; so, He made sure that the SAME WORD was used for the “knowledge” portion! Just as "knowledge" will not truly FAIL, neither will the prophecies! The word simply means that they will be DELAYED or SCALED BACK, "IDLED DOWN!"

As the readers might see from how I have written this thread, my focus has been to “repetitively” promote the simplicity of being a “fruitful” ambassador for Jesus' Kingdom, with the hope that some others would be encouraged to also “repetitively” “ask” for God's help to become even more “fruitful” themselves, as Jesus taught us to become, [*] whenever we would seek to “obey” His simple commandment to love His Father God with “all” of one's (1st) heart, (2nd) understanding, (3rd) soul, and (4th) strength. [Mark 12:33 KJV] & [Deuteronomy 6:5] [*: Numbers 20:12 & Luke 12:45 & Luke 21:34]

And also to enlighten some Berean type disciples concerning the “eternal” goals infallibly outlined by a Holy Paul within 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 that state:

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease (katargeo); where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away (katargeo). For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears (katargeo). When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put (away) (katargeo) the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

><> <><>

Ultimately our immeasurably-merciful Heavenly Father will be sovereign towards how He will choose to glorify [*] Himself to the uttermost in these last-days, and the Greek word katargeo is what was strongly enlightened to me to remind me of His merciful-sovereignty towards "all" in His prodigal creation.

[*: John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.]

><> <><>

If in my Lord's sovereign choices my dream-vision would soon become fulfilled, very very soon many will see the Daystar of New Jerusalem shine from the eastern sky and our Creator Father's immeasurable love and patience to reconcile each of us in our fallen world to each other and back to Himself to the uttermost will begin to be proclaimed in a much greater measure, by the Holy Spirit's anointing and power working through His joint-heir Saints.

My goal with this thread is to encourage those that would have ears to hear that we need to prepare ourselves individually and corporately for that blessed hope.

We are all in training to be a little more like Jesus every day, one day and one step at a time.

Again, thank you everyone for your posts and prayers. They will eventually be fruitful towards everyone who might someday read this thread.

Shalom in Jesus,
A Servant of Jesus Christ
AJCServant
John 10&15&17 & Revelation 21

<><> <><
PS - Any further "edifying", "wholesome" and helpful comments anyone?


Continuing with the focus of this thread -

A previous author stated that:

So I Cor 13 means prophecy might be done away with already (along with tongues), just as Dan 9 says it would be sealed up by Messiah--in the sense of fulfilled in Messiah already, since "sealed up" means that in Daniel (confirmed, realized, etc.).

Again, Ultimately our immeasurably-merciful Heavenly Father will be sovereign towards how He will choose to glorify [*] Himself to the uttermost in these last-days, and the Greek word katargeo is what was strongly enlightened to me to remind me of His merciful-sovereignty towards "all" in His prodigal creation.

[*: John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.]

I am sure that all of those with a heart that can receive it will comprehend that throughout history our Holy God has been tragically slandered by many fallible albeit somewhat Holy teachers and authors who had at one time in their lives been set apart for service to God, and who taught that all harsh judgments individually and corporately were “always” our Abba Heavenly Father's perfect will for each event that has ever occurred in our lives and throughout history, since it is their Calvinisticly inspired view that our Shekhinah God was in total “control” of every event that has ever occurred in the earth, simply because they teach He is all-powerful while He also has infinite omniscience and foreknowledge from ages past, so that for-example He knew from before Adam and Eve that I myself would be writing this thread today “exactly” as I have written it.

Unfortunately this is not the truth about our Heavenly Father and is a tragic slander that many spiritually indolent pulpits have promoted that has hindered many souls from seeking out a personal relationship with their Shekhinah God, and which has brought the American Church to the verge of losing its saltiness within our abundantly blessed country and also then throughout the world; And so will likely soon be judged by “everyone” in heaven and in the earth for our corporately condoned spiritual indolence and sins whenever the Blessed Hope, that I myself hope for, will likely shortly occur; And The Devil Beelzebub will use our unthoughtful and slanderous doctrines to further steal, kill, and destroy to his uttermost; While God's heavenly host of warrior angels will do everything within their power to avert this tragic future that might occur during the transitioning tribulations that are “soon” to occur.

Is “anyone” ready for the blessed hope to occur today?

With the hidden spiritual warfare that has been occurring from long before the fall of the first Adam in the Garden of Eden, it has always been our Abba Father's efforts to bring forth the best case that was written in Colossians 1:20 and all other “Holy” scripture, while it has always been The-Devil Beelzebub's efforts to manipulate author/teachers to use scripture to seduce many prodigal souls to bring forth the worst case towards mankind, in order to eventually accomplish what Jesus taught in Matthew 21:38, Mark 12:7 and Luke 20:14 which says, “when the tenants [i.e. Beelzebub's hordes] saw him, they talked the matter over. 'This is the heir,' they said. 'Let's kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.'”

Since the earth will someday be burnt up during the next scheduled sterilization event as seen in Revelation 21, it is not our works in the earth that is God's inheritance for us all but it is “all” of mankind that has always been the inheritance that Jesus' has sought to adopt and build-up throughout these past many many ages. So let us not lose “any” souls to their defection into Beelzebub's “embittered” or “seduced” hordes by our own spiritual indolence to not lift up the love of God as evidenced in the cross of Jesus as we ought, and by not bearing our own crosses while we would convey His love to others as well.

My Lord's goal with this thread is to encourage those that would have ears to hear that we need to prepare ourselves individually and corporately for that blessed hope mentioned in Titus 2:13 where Paul teaches: 11) For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12) It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13) while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14) who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. 15) These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

We are all in training to be a little more like Jesus every day, one day and one step at a time.

Again, thank you everyone for your posts and prayers. They will eventually be fruitful towards everyone who might someday read this thread.

Shalom in Jesus,
A Servant of Jesus Christ
AJCServant
John 10&15&17 & Revelation 21

PS – Has anyone here ever thought of the “organization” of highly educated and technological angels that sacrificed for ages to build the New Jerusalem that we “might” all see someday - as it is taught in Revelation 21 and by a Holy and faith-filled Paul in Colossians 1:20?



Again continuing with the focus of this thread -

After first seeing the image attached within Post #63, “NewJerusalem ForTheSaints _gif.gif”, I was encouraged that more are becoming like-minded to envision the “Day-Star” in the eastern sky – that will likely be seen whenever the tribulating transition period from this present age to the next more glorious age will begin to rapidly occur.

Very very soon Jesus will return in a manner that entire nations will come to the Lord on one day and God's mercy will “suddenly” triumph over judgment. It is the task of Jesus' noble ambassadors to prepare ourselves and “all” nations for that blessed-hope in order that God's mercy will triumph to the “uttermost”, especially for the sake of those joint-heirs who like their Lord Jesus have sacrificially sown righteous mercy and compassion into their own cultures and then throughout the world.

<><> <><
[Zechariah 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee & Luke 12:40 You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him & Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.]
<><> <><

We are all in training to be a little more like Jesus every day, one day and one step at a time.

Again, thank you everyone for your posts and prayers. They will eventually be fruitful towards everyone who might someday read this thread.

Shalom in Jesus,
A Servant of Jesus Christ
AJCServant
John 10&15&17 & Revelation 21

<><> <><
PS - Any further "edifying", "wholesome" and helpful comments anyone?

 

[DaDad]

<><> <><
PS - Any further "edifying", "wholesome" and helpful comments anyone?

Hi AServantOfJC,

Those that post on the straight forward subject of Daniel, suggest that his prophecies are ancient, when the ANGEL insists that they are end-time:

Daniel 12
4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.


To prove my point, I would like you to answer a simple question:

Daniel 1:21 And Daniel continued until the first year of King Cyrus.
Daniel 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a word was revealed to Daniel, ...

Which is correct? -- Did Daniel die in the first year of King Cyrus, or was he yet alive in the third year of Cyrus?


But before you answer, please be aware of the following:

1.a. Calvin recognized the significance of the word haiah, which means "broken", as a requisite for Daniel having DIED:
[SIZE=12pt]Expositors are puzzled with this verse, .... Some explain the word H+J+H+, haiah, by to be "broken;" ... [/SIZE]

1.b. In the full amplification of his text we find that he discounts his discovery that Daniel was "broken" (dead), in deference to Daniel 10:1 which would appear to contradict 1:21:
[SIZE=12pt]Expositors are puzzled with this verse, because, as we shall afterwards see, the Vision occurred to Daniel in the third year of [8]Cyrus's reign[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]. Some explain the word H+J+H+, haiah, by to be "broken;" but this is by no means in accordance with the history. [/SIZE]

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom24.vii.xx.html?bcb=right

2. Where so many presume that which is not, they equally ascribe subsequent events to the era in which they're not, -- as in the 11:2 sequence of "three more" and a "fourth".

3. HINT: 1:21 and 10:1 are BOTH correct, -- but HOW?


So, to quote from "The Princess Bride": Man in Black: All right. Where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right... and who is dead.

... and yes, GOD demands that we be maintain our wits and intelligence!



DaDad


PS Please allow the diversion from the Topic as titled. If you and I can resolve a simple concept, then I would look forward to addressing both the subject and inference of this topic in full historical and Scriptural context..

 

[AServantofJC]

Again continuing with the primary focus of this thread which is (1) to “encourage” “some” with hearts that can hear so they might seek God's vision, courage, wisdom and strength on how to stand-against “doctrines-of-men”, which “all” immature believers have tended to unwittingly endorse in our past seasons, but which “always” confuse or slander the simplicity of the gospel of Jesus, especially to those who are among Jesus' lost-prodigal sheep, and (2) to also provoke “some” to greater love and good works encouraged in Hebrews 10:23-25 via the question:

Is “anyone” reading this thread ready for the blessed hope to occur today?

Commentaries are posted within the link below that I pray will further these two goals:

<> http://www.preceptaustin.org/titus_213-15.htm <>
OR <> preceptaustin.org/titus_213-15.htm <>


Commentary on Titus 2:13 via the following translations:

NIV: while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
ESV: waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
New Living Translation: while we look forward with hope to that wonderful day when the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be revealed.
International Children's Bible: We should live like that while we are waiting for the coming of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. He is our great hope, and He will come with glory.
Weymouth New Testament: in expectation of the fulfilment of our blessed hope--the Appearing in glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;
Amplified: Awaiting and looking for the [fulfillment, the realization of our] blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One), (Amplified Bible - Lockman)
Barclay: we expectantly await the realization of our blessed hope—I mean the glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ (Westminster Press)
Berkley: with expectation of that blessed hope, even the glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
NET: as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Phillips: we hope and wait for the glorious dénouement of the Great God and of Jesus Christ our Saviour. (Phillips: Touchstone)
Wuest: expectantly looking for the prosperous expectation, even the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ (Eerdmans)
Young's Literal: waiting for the blessed hope and manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ,
World English Bible: looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ;
NASB: Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, (NASB: Lockman)
KJV: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Greek: prosdechomenoi ten makarian elpida kai epiphaneian tes doxes tou megalou theou kai soteros hemon Iesou Christou,

Further context of Titus 2:13 is given by Paul within the scriptures: 11) For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12) It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13) while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14) who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. 15) These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you. (NIV)

Very very soon Jesus will return in a manner that entire nations will come to the Lord on one day and God's mercy will “suddenly” triumph over judgment. It is the task of Jesus' noble ambassadors to prepare ourselves and “all” nations for that blessed-hope in order that God's mercy will triumph to the “uttermost”, especially for the sake of those sacrificial joint-heirs who like their Lord Jesus have sacrificially sown righteous mercy and compassion into their own cultures and then throughout the world.

We are all in training to be a little more like Jesus every day, one day and one step at a time.

Again, thank you everyone for your posts and prayers. They will eventually be fruitful towards everyone who might someday read this thread.

Shalom in Jesus,
A Servant of Jesus Christ
AJCServant
John 10&15&17 & Revelation 21


There are several key scriptures that have become my encouragements to stay focused within this blog of which many are given below to encourage others that may take them to heart:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All (Holy) scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may become perfect (mature), thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Timothy 2:15-16 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness. (ESV) (KJV) 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Isaiah 29:13-14 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the doctrines-of-men: therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

John 16:13-14 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for He shall receive of me, and shall shew it unto you.

John 8:31-32 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

James 2:13 Because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful, (howbeit) mercy triumphs over judgment.

<><> <><
PPS - Any further "edifying", "wholesome" and helpful comments anyone?

 

[DaDad]

Again continuing with the primary focus of this thread which is (1) to “encourage” “some” with hearts that can hear ...

NIV: while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

It would seem that where some wait for the "blessed hope", Jesus gave some guidance:

Matt 24
15 “So when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), ...


So possibly we should start with understanding the Book of Daniel, and AFTER having that understanding, THEN commense "waiting" in that proper time.



DaDad