Jon-Marc
New Member
To God, there is no such thing as a righteous unbeliever. They may be righteous in man's eyes but not in God's.
Righteousness
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Hi Episkopos,
This was the paragraph I quoted.
Your patience is appreciated because I still have questions. <_<
Thanks for the scriptures. They help - up to a point. But they are taken from the era of the law.
What other standard of righteousness was in use during OT times before Abram?
What definition of 'holy' and 'holiness' do you have in mind? (I feel you are filtering every idea through a New Covenant mindset.)
You said:
Is this an OT or a NT standard? It sounds as if it could be either.
And you didn't say whether the 'law of righteousness' was one of the laws you mentioned in the paragraph I had quoted. Please could you clarify?
So, are you saying that by them keeping the commandment of God to be circumcised, it added nothing to their 'righteousness'?
Would that mean - according to this reasoning - that they would have been just as righteous if they had not obeyed God, (and had not bothered to be circumcised)?
This was the paragraph I quoted.
Your patience is appreciated because I still have questions. <_<
Thanks for the scriptures. They help - up to a point. But they are taken from the era of the law.
What other standard of righteousness was in use during OT times before Abram?
What definition of 'holy' and 'holiness' do you have in mind? (I feel you are filtering every idea through a New Covenant mindset.)
You said:
Is this an OT or a NT standard? It sounds as if it could be either.
And you didn't say whether the 'law of righteousness' was one of the laws you mentioned in the paragraph I had quoted. Please could you clarify?
So, are you saying that by them keeping the commandment of God to be circumcised, it added nothing to their 'righteousness'?
Would that mean - according to this reasoning - that they would have been just as righteous if they had not obeyed God, (and had not bothered to be circumcised)?
Enoch walked with God and he was translated because he pleased God. The name Enoch means to be trained as a child. Basically discipleship.
Abel was righteous...Noah was righteous...(he hated the actions of the wicked). God declared them as such. This was at a time before Abraham.
I know what temple holiness is. But the temple has been destroyed so even if we wished to become Jews and follow the temple holiness...we could not. Besides, true holiness is in Christ.
There are two main laws...the first concerns true holiness...loving God alone. The second concerns righteousness...doing what is right to others before God.
The Mosaic law was a compromise because the people were not ready to receive true holiness. It was an "ersatz" holiness that was a representation of heavenly practice. But righteousness has always existed. Even a child is known by their ways.
Circumcision is a holiness law not a righteousness law.
There were 2 tablets of the commandments. The first 4 commands are holiness laws on the first tablet. The last 6 are righteousness commandments that concerns our dealings with others.
Hi Episkopos,
Your ordeal with my questions is not yet over!
Right at the beginning of the thread you talked about (my paraphrase) people who will be saved for doing the right thing - whether Israelites or Gentiles - whether before or after the law. Now, I'm trying to get you to write down the terms by which any of these four groups of people would be declared 'righteous' by God to the extent of their actions saving them from God's wrath and eternal destruction.
So far, you have offered a hail of conflicting information from a mixture of scripture and your own opinions. I say your own opinions, because it's not clear to me that they have a rigorous scriptural basis. What I'm looking for is the kind of study which shows those reading how to form definitons from scripture. Here's an example. The word 'repent' in scripture is first used of whom? What were the qualities of that 'repentance'. What was the outworking of that repentance? What can we deduce from what scripture tells us about this first 'repentance', are the generic qualities and outworkings of repentance? As we read on through scripture, do we find these qualities and outworkings repeated in other parts of the narrative? By those recurrences of 'repent' and 'repentance', is the revelation being increased of the definition of true repentance as God wants to see it? How do we relate this understanding of repentance to our own lives and relationship with God?
Okay. Let's do the same with righteousness. Who is the first person scripture describes as 'righteous'? (Not 'just', not 'pleasing to God', not 'walking with God' - not some other adjective or verb, but 'righteous'.) What other factors are at play in scripture's use of the term 'righteous'? Is the word used by God or by men (of God or of men) or both, and do they always mean the same thing by it? If not, what are the key differences? Which scriptures inform our definitions of these differing perspectives on righteousness? Does scripture show an increasing revelation of 'righteousness', or, is it a static term which does not change throughout scripture?
Since you have compared 'righteousness' and 'holiness' in a confusing way, the same questions need to be asked about holiness, to develop a distinct definition of 'holiness' which shows how it differs from righteousness, and which clarify the overlap and separation. For instance, clearly - according to Jesus - there were priests (holy by one definition of holiness) who were keeping the Mosaic law 'blameless'ly. But you have said that no-one could keep the Mosaic law because it was not possible to keep it because 'the law is holy'. I'm not saying your statement is incorrect, but, because you have not separated the issues and the perspectives in writing in this thread, such a statement is at best, confusing, and at worst, meaningless to anyone who doesn't have a Bible or, who doesn't understand what the Bible is showing them.
The main reason the answers to these questions matter enormously, is that you are hanging eternal salvation on the term 'righteous' - for some people - especially in the post-Calvary era - who are not Christians.
As I read the conversation so far, I still have no idea which biblical parameters, on which a person could be absolutely sure that they have complied with God's requirements, will save them from God's wrath at judgment according to your gospel. Matt 7:21, 24; 1 Peter 1:25. And even if there were not people reading in over 200 countries around the world - just for the purposes of this discussion between ourselves, I would be trying to extract precise information from you for the sake of answering the original questions in the OP.
I hope this post helps you to understand better, what I'm both trying to achieve, and, to understand for myself.
Blessings, brother :)
Your ordeal with my questions is not yet over!
Right at the beginning of the thread you talked about (my paraphrase) people who will be saved for doing the right thing - whether Israelites or Gentiles - whether before or after the law. Now, I'm trying to get you to write down the terms by which any of these four groups of people would be declared 'righteous' by God to the extent of their actions saving them from God's wrath and eternal destruction.
So far, you have offered a hail of conflicting information from a mixture of scripture and your own opinions. I say your own opinions, because it's not clear to me that they have a rigorous scriptural basis. What I'm looking for is the kind of study which shows those reading how to form definitons from scripture. Here's an example. The word 'repent' in scripture is first used of whom? What were the qualities of that 'repentance'. What was the outworking of that repentance? What can we deduce from what scripture tells us about this first 'repentance', are the generic qualities and outworkings of repentance? As we read on through scripture, do we find these qualities and outworkings repeated in other parts of the narrative? By those recurrences of 'repent' and 'repentance', is the revelation being increased of the definition of true repentance as God wants to see it? How do we relate this understanding of repentance to our own lives and relationship with God?
Okay. Let's do the same with righteousness. Who is the first person scripture describes as 'righteous'? (Not 'just', not 'pleasing to God', not 'walking with God' - not some other adjective or verb, but 'righteous'.) What other factors are at play in scripture's use of the term 'righteous'? Is the word used by God or by men (of God or of men) or both, and do they always mean the same thing by it? If not, what are the key differences? Which scriptures inform our definitions of these differing perspectives on righteousness? Does scripture show an increasing revelation of 'righteousness', or, is it a static term which does not change throughout scripture?
Since you have compared 'righteousness' and 'holiness' in a confusing way, the same questions need to be asked about holiness, to develop a distinct definition of 'holiness' which shows how it differs from righteousness, and which clarify the overlap and separation. For instance, clearly - according to Jesus - there were priests (holy by one definition of holiness) who were keeping the Mosaic law 'blameless'ly. But you have said that no-one could keep the Mosaic law because it was not possible to keep it because 'the law is holy'. I'm not saying your statement is incorrect, but, because you have not separated the issues and the perspectives in writing in this thread, such a statement is at best, confusing, and at worst, meaningless to anyone who doesn't have a Bible or, who doesn't understand what the Bible is showing them.
The main reason the answers to these questions matter enormously, is that you are hanging eternal salvation on the term 'righteous' - for some people - especially in the post-Calvary era - who are not Christians.
As I read the conversation so far, I still have no idea which biblical parameters, on which a person could be absolutely sure that they have complied with God's requirements, will save them from God's wrath at judgment according to your gospel. Matt 7:21, 24; 1 Peter 1:25. And even if there were not people reading in over 200 countries around the world - just for the purposes of this discussion between ourselves, I would be trying to extract precise information from you for the sake of answering the original questions in the OP.
I hope this post helps you to understand better, what I'm both trying to achieve, and, to understand for myself.
Blessings, brother :)
But God has no favourites. This is a lesson we must learn over and over again. He treats those whom He loves HARD!
Paul would never defend his status as a son...he took the place of a bond slave. THAT is what makes us sons! :)
Most of us on this site are white, rich, and very priviledged. Bangladeshis, for instance, are poor, dark skinned, and living in a constant turmoil. But we think we are favoured by God and they are not.
Righteousness means to see things accurately even to the point of condemning ourselves.
Here is a little parable...
Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Who are we in this parable? It takes a biblical level of righteousness to be able to admit who we are.
How do we escape the judgment that God will have on the middle class American (or any other western country) dreamsters that live sheltered lives???
i KNOW we are the rich man. Righteousness demands that we see this full on. Only then can we have the radical motivation to forsake our middle class lifestyle and adopt a kingdom lifestyle of the non-ownership of anything in this life.
If we would be the poor man...Lazarus...then we must forsake the bourgeois mentality of a private life..and embrace an identification with the body of Christ..sharing all things with one another....so that we can proclaim the kingdom of God ...together. That is discerning the body properly!! :)
Then we will be persecuted and thrown out as Jesus was and all His followers were...and the poor of this world (the dogs) will lick our wounds and call us righteous.
Will we do the right thing????
The righteous do not know they are righteous. They see themselves as failures. They just don't know how to turn to Jesus Christ. (speaking of say...Bangladeshis)
In order to explain the way of righteousness...as much unlearning would need to take place as a monumentally long post to lay out the ways of God with men from the beginning till the end. The outworking of this understanding usually takes YEARS. There is so much to unlearn.
The Mosaic law could be done blamelessly..yes...but this led to a false assurance of being righteous. As I have said...the righteous DO NOT see them selves as righteous. God does!!!!!
We see the workings of this delusion on this very site!!!!! People who see them selves as righteous because of their beliefs. I know you see this...this far. :)
But there is more...God will judge us against all men!!!! Otherwise He would not be righteous...He would have favourites.
As we live longer...righteousness keeps moving away from us. It is a moving target. We want to remain where we are and settle down...but we will perish there and lose the race as surely as the hare fell asleep and lost to the tortoise.
We forget that we are still IN the race. We may see others taking a wrong turn...but we need a constant reminder that we must keep pushing forward ourselves.
Paul himself was afraid to be cut off and this after having done SO MUCH. Surely God would cut Paul some slack? But it was the righteousness in Paul that saw himself as an "unprofitable servant" that kept him awake to watch and pray.
Righteousness is a lot bigger than we can imagine. As soon as we settle...we lose our righteousness.
Renewing the mind is certainly a difficult undertaking. But you can get used to the constant upheaval that righteousness demands!!! ;)
Holiness: is always in ONE place...In Zion with Christ. It always just IS and never moves. So we can boast IN holiness. We proclaim the gospel from there.
Righteousness: Is always moving. No one can boast about how righteous they are. When one does...they have fallen from it. Others declare you are righteous with God making the final verdict.
"We are settling for a Christianity that revolves around catering to ourselves when the central message of Christianity is actually about abandoning ourselves" David Platt
Dear Episkopos,
Thank you for your efforts to give me some more clues as to where you get some of your ideas about righteousness. I don't feel any further forward as to a biblical definition, so, I wil l ask you one last question.
When you speak of Gentiles (and especially in the era since the cross) unbelievers being saved through their righteous deeds, my question is this - are you saying they don't need to have their unrighteousess deeds forgiven before they are accepted by God?
If they do need forgiveness, how do they get it? (Please answer this question for Gentiles in the era before Abraham, too.)
Many thanks, :)
Thank you for your efforts to give me some more clues as to where you get some of your ideas about righteousness. I don't feel any further forward as to a biblical definition, so, I wil l ask you one last question.
When you speak of Gentiles (and especially in the era since the cross) unbelievers being saved through their righteous deeds, my question is this - are you saying they don't need to have their unrighteousess deeds forgiven before they are accepted by God?
If they do need forgiveness, how do they get it? (Please answer this question for Gentiles in the era before Abraham, too.)
Many thanks, :)
This answer is easy because nothing has changed ever concerning righteousness. A smile :) has always been a smile :) And a selfless act continues to be a selfless act.
God has chosen to have mercy on us Christians...and given us a deposit to work with till He returns. In this way we become servants of God becoming sons (and daughters) of God through the new nature. But God doesn't call everyone. Neither are all that are called chosen.
This is why one cannot make sense of God's ways unless one looks at the template that God uses to catagorize, so to speak, the different destinies of men.
For example..Noah had 3 sons...
Shem: means name and represents the saints (glory)
Yapheth: means spread out and represents the nations of the righteous (life)
Ham: mean warm or hot and represents the ones sent into outer darkness (shame)
ALL men are from these 3. This is a spiritual condition. Those who are wicked are cast into the lake of fire and burned.
God is righteous and men were created in God's image. We have a conscience which can be nurtured or seared. So it is possible to please God (by faith) while acting from the conscience. Abel is a prime example of this. His sacrifice was pleasing to God..while Cain's was not.
If we had no conscience (island of righteousness) in us then God could no convict a sinner of sin BEFORE we are regenerated. I call this a latent faith/faithfulness.
When we come to Christ we become active/alive in our spirits capable of a direct relationship with God.
No one is saved through their righteous deeds...yet God can hear the prayer of anyone He wishes...He can forgive anyone He wishes and count as righteous anyone He wishes ...because He is sovereign AND merciful. God is looking at creating the best possible world. And that world includes those who have suffered and met with injustice in their lives...and never heard the gospel.
So God makes men righteous...either in this life...or at judgment when He declares someone righteous by having moved God's heart. That is the great secret...we must move God's heart!!!
HI Episkopos,
Now this last answer is beginning to touch some of my questions.
The way you've worded this makes God sound like an arbitrary judge, rather than one who not only has rules but keeps His own rules.
So... on what basis would He be able to forgive a person because 'he wishes' to?
Now this last answer is beginning to touch some of my questions.
The way you've worded this makes God sound like an arbitrary judge, rather than one who not only has rules but keeps His own rules.
So... on what basis would He be able to forgive a person because 'he wishes' to?
Because there is no good unless God says it's good. God doesn't follow laws...The laws follow God. The fact that God doesn't change is what makes a law a law. He decides a planet will have gravity...and that becomes the law. He decides we can't eat from a certain tree and that becomes law.
Eating from the tree of good and evil makes us decide what we think is good...making us gods....but there is only ONE God. So A Christian has no opinion outside of God.
Now the church has decided to make laws from the bible based on the reasoning and traditions of men. Then we follow church and not God.
God sees the heart. He knows what He likes. If we are humble (which He likes) He will teach us His ways. :)
There's more I could tell you but I can't unless you understand the order I have been trying to convey of The saints ruling over the righteous and the righteous ruling over the filthy.
We must never forget that God is very merciful. We must also tend this way with others...not seeking to apply laws on all who are not as far as us. Mercy triumphs over judgment. A Christian should be very gracious not judgmental. We are to show mercy, even if this seems undeserved, because we have also been shown an undeserved mercy. Thank God for His mercy endures forever.
"For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe" (1 Tim. 4:10).
Salvation is by God's grace through our faith. According to each man's faith will what God does with His graced be measured to Him. We believe that the gospel is life changing and produces righteousness through the blood of Jesus. If your life is not changed unto righteousness by the gospel you may not be saved. Many receive a religious experience and have some scriptures under their belt and are not saved. But for those that understand that God's highest command is for His people to obey and live holy and changed by the power of the gospel of Jesus Christ to those is given salvation and the full measure of grace. Not humanistic perfection or legalistic self righteousness but godliness given by God through faith. And your works being a product of your faith for what is in you will come out of you! If your truly saved in your soul your works will confirm your profession. Bitter and sweet can not come out of the same foutain! Righteousness and sin can not dwell together! God is holy, Jesus is holy, the Holy Spirit is holy and the Holy writ is holy and we are commanded to live and be holy!
"[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY." (1 Peter 1:16)[/background]
[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]"[/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]And a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness. The unclean will not journey on it; it will be for those who walk in that Way; wicked fools will not go about on it." (Isaiah 35:8)[/background]
[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]"[/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]And Joshua said unto the people, Sanctify yourselves: for tomorrow the LORD will do wonders among you." (Joshua 3:5)[/background]
[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]"[/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)[/background]
[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]"[/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?" (Luke 6:46)[/background]
[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." (Romans 2:13)[/background]
[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]"[/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled." (Matthew 5:6)[/background]
"[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY." (1 Peter 1:16)[/background]
[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]"[/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]And a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness. The unclean will not journey on it; it will be for those who walk in that Way; wicked fools will not go about on it." (Isaiah 35:8)[/background]
[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]"[/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]And Joshua said unto the people, Sanctify yourselves: for tomorrow the LORD will do wonders among you." (Joshua 3:5)[/background]
[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]"[/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)[/background]
[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]"[/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?" (Luke 6:46)[/background]
[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." (Romans 2:13)[/background]
[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]"[/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled." (Matthew 5:6)[/background]
Love those verses! I think too often we read the sermon on the mount as ...Blessed are the meek WHO ARE CHRISTIAN...thus putting a condition on the statement that was never meant to be there. Jesus is showing us what pleases the Father. :)
Hi Episkopos,
I'm re-reading the whole thread, to see whether an overview will help me tune in to your thinking. This post is about just one line, but I've kept the preceding line (your whole paragraph) for context. It's from post # 8.
Are you really saying that despite Christ's millennial reign, there will still be unbelievers who did the 'right' thing, who are saved?
Assuming the answer to this is 'yes', which Bible verses do you use to back up this idea? (Apart from Matt 25, of course.)
Hi Johnny,
This is part of your response at post # 11, which I wanted to answer, but somehow I think I failed!
All that I wish to point out is that Paul and James were Israelites and they were speaking to Israelites whenever they mentioned 'the law' being applicable. Those who will be judged without 'the law', are Gentiles - who were never under 'the law'.
When Paul says to Timothy that 'the law is for the lawless' he is speaking in the era after the Mosaic law was fulfilled by Christ. It is no longer the standard.
I'm re-reading the whole thread, to see whether an overview will help me tune in to your thinking. This post is about just one line, but I've kept the preceding line (your whole paragraph) for context. It's from post # 8.
Are you really saying that despite Christ's millennial reign, there will still be unbelievers who did the 'right' thing, who are saved?
Assuming the answer to this is 'yes', which Bible verses do you use to back up this idea? (Apart from Matt 25, of course.)
Hi Johnny,
This is part of your response at post # 11, which I wanted to answer, but somehow I think I failed!
All that I wish to point out is that Paul and James were Israelites and they were speaking to Israelites whenever they mentioned 'the law' being applicable. Those who will be judged without 'the law', are Gentiles - who were never under 'the law'.
When Paul says to Timothy that 'the law is for the lawless' he is speaking in the era after the Mosaic law was fulfilled by Christ. It is no longer the standard.
Hi D.
It's more like this...some people say they will obey but then don't. Others don't say anything but then do! So is there only merit in saying we will do before we do?
"The righteous are scarcely saved."
1Pe_4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Rom_9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom_9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
All of Matthew 5 is about the righteous. All of the OT is about the righteous....in fact Paul says it is good for instruction in righteousness.
There are so many verses
The parable of the pennies is about the righteous.
Hi Episkopos,
I will bear your latest comments in mind as I read and consider. :) Thanks.
I think this verse needs to be taken along with the one before it, because it reads just like the Hebrew device for emphasis, where everything is said twice, If that were the case, Peter is contrasting those who have the righteousness of Christ, with those who do not have it.
1 Pet 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God:
I will bear your latest comments in mind as I read and consider. :) Thanks.
I think this verse needs to be taken along with the one before it, because it reads just like the Hebrew device for emphasis, where everything is said twice, If that were the case, Peter is contrasting those who have the righteousness of Christ, with those who do not have it.
1 Pet 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God:
and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?
On what grounds can we say for sure that Peter is not referring to those who have the righteousness of Christ?
Actually those who have the righteousness of Christ are abundantly saved. The saints rule and reign with Christ. The righteous merely survive.
The parable of the pennies is in stark contrast with the varying rewards of the parable of the talents. The righteous all have exactly the same reward whether they did right all their lives or began to just before the end. The thief on the cross was declared righteous NOT holy!!! So he is scarecely saved.
The thief on the cross was not baptized either in water or the Spirit.
Hi Episkopos,
Thanks for your replies. I'm slowly building up a picture of how you sort these things out in your mind. It's not the traditional way, you know.... :)
So, if I'm understanding you, you are saying that although he met Christ, and consciously placed his faith in Christ's power to 'save' him from condemnation and wrath, because he could not have been born again or baptised in the Holy Spirit, 'he is scarcely saved'. This would be the same kind of salvation you believe applies to Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and all the OT prophets. You would not consider these to be 'OT saints'.... but you would consider them 'righteous'. And they are only 'scarcely saved'. :huh:
Please confirm this logical extrapolation.
Thanks for your replies. I'm slowly building up a picture of how you sort these things out in your mind. It's not the traditional way, you know.... :)
So, if I'm understanding you, you are saying that although he met Christ, and consciously placed his faith in Christ's power to 'save' him from condemnation and wrath, because he could not have been born again or baptised in the Holy Spirit, 'he is scarcely saved'. This would be the same kind of salvation you believe applies to Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and all the OT prophets. You would not consider these to be 'OT saints'.... but you would consider them 'righteous'. And they are only 'scarcely saved'. :huh:
Please confirm this logical extrapolation.
Hi D!!
I think it is more apropos to say...it is no longer the traditional way. :) It used to be understood but much has changed since AD 33. It is akin to recovering the ancient paths to understand the way of righteousness.
God showed me the old paths through learning Hebrew (God told me to learn Hebrew) and seeing the OT through that language. It opened my eyes!!!
I don't think we can compare an OT saint with the thief on the cross. The thief ended this life well by doing what was right! Jesus justified him (not sanctified him) as we read in EZ. 18. The same righteousness as was given to Zacchaeus who gave back what he stolen with interest!!!
The standard of a saint has always been intimacy with God. So there are many saints in the OT since God revealed Himself to them. God chose to visit righteous men and include them in His plans. A prophet is by definition a saint. So this direct relationship with a man sanctifies him. The balance between holiness and righteousness is better understood in Hebrew with the words Shalem and Tamim. :) But that is another thread.
I believe that knowing God...truly knowing Him... is still the criteria for being a saint today. In the NT we have an added dimension through Christ who empowers us to walk as Jesus walked through an actual holiness based on the divine nature. The difference is that God chooses lost sinners to make saints from. The righteous He doesn't disturb. But the greatest of these (righteous) is less than the least of the saints.
Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
To be justified in the eyes of God means to be declared righteous. Was the publican a saint? Not even close. So a sinner can be justified (like the publican) through a humble and contrite heart.
The more I study this topic, the more I see how the traditional western stance easily sends people to hell. It's almost like belonging to a country club, if I belong than I am safe and those not in the club will perish.
David said he would rather fall into the hands of God than the hands of men.
God will give some more and others less, we are only responsible for what He has given us.
This is not directed to anyone, it is what I see as I study righteousness and compare it to my prior belief.
Maybe a renewing of my mind in a sense. :)
David said he would rather fall into the hands of God than the hands of men.
God will give some more and others less, we are only responsible for what He has given us.
This is not directed to anyone, it is what I see as I study righteousness and compare it to my prior belief.
Maybe a renewing of my mind in a sense. :)
John you are fast on the uptake!!! I think it's harder for older ones as we tend to get deeper in a rut over time.
What is so important to see is the danger of being a Christian (as well as the more obvious benefits). I call this the peril of shalem (Perfection based on intimacy with God). Sometimes we get smug about a perceived status we have with God. We start to believe we're special...and we get passive and fall asleep spiritually. This is why righteousness keeps moving further away from us. The race is never over until it is over. I see many Christians like the hare in the story of the hare and the tortoise. Christians have all the answers...but without really understanding the questions. The understanding of the equation is non-existent or foggy. So it is like having the answer sheet but not knowing how it applies to the questions. Once you change the order of questions the answers don't line up any more. ;)
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