Righteousness

[JohnnyB]

I am hoping this is the right section for this topic, it's a question and a struggle of mine to come to terms with this issue, and the description of this section says to ask questions here. I believe there are a few topics going on right now discussing "imputed" righteousness and I hope this doesn't turn into one of those because this is a question about unbelievers.

The struggle I have had for quit awhile is coming to terms with unbelievers, who by nature, do righteous acts, my understanding of righteous is "doing right in the eyes of God". If unbelievers are doing righteous acts, what does God do with this? Do they still face judgement? I am very aware of the verse that says "no one comes to the Father except through me" and also Romans 1:19.

In the attempt to use the whole of the word, this verse also comes to mind:

In Romans 2:12 [sup] [/sup]All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. [sup]13 [/sup]For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. [sup]14 [/sup](Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. [sup]15 [/sup]They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) [sup]16 [/sup]This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

What I see here are unbelievers who have the law written on their hearts and obeying it, they are being righteous. What I don't see is Paul condemning them for doing so.

My question would be what of unbelieving righteous people? How is God viewing them? There are many verses that speak of evil people perishing, but would God see these people as evil and deserving of perishing them?

Thank you.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi John!!!!

This is a favourite topic of mine. It is very important as it shapes the way we see ourselves...and others.

What is righteousness? It is doing what is right in the eyes of God.

We are all graded by what we have been given. A child is not expected to know calculus or even be able to tie their shoelaces.

So when we "judge others we must keep this in mind in order to judge righteously.

There are really 2 types of righteousnessness.... based on what men can do and what God can do.

There is nothing wrong with men doing right in their own strength...as long as it is understood that this doing what is right is merely "better than nothing".

The good Samaritan is a good example of this. He did what he could...and this pleased God inasmuch as Jesus Himself uses him as an example of obedience from the heart to the command to love others as ourselves.

This is the basic salvation criteria of obedience to the command of God. It is GOD who decides whom He will justify by this obedience. Man cannot decide for himself whether he is righteous or not by what he has believed or what he has done.

The other level (the upper floor) of righteousness is the righteousness of God based on the knowledge of truth.

Grace gives us the ability to do far more of the will of God than someone who is without grace. But we will also be judged by that potemtial...the more that is given the more is required. We will be expected to move into grace and abide in Christ and His divine nature. We will be expected to overcome at least to some degree by faith.

So there is no room for boasting on either count.

I am hoping this is the right section for this topic, it's a question and a struggle of mine to come to terms with this issue, and the description of this section says to ask questions here. I believe there are a few topics going on right now discussing "imputed" righteousness and I hope this doesn't turn into one of those because this is a question about unbelievers.

The struggle I have had for quit awhile is coming to terms with unbelievers, who by nature, do righteous acts, my understanding of righteous is "doing right in the eyes of God". If unbelievers are doing righteous acts, what does God do with this? Do they still face judgement? I am very aware of the verse that says "no one comes to the Father except through me" and also Romans 1:19.

In the attempt to use the whole of the word, this verse also comes to mind:

In Romans 2:12 [sup] [/sup]All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. [sup]13 [/sup]For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. [sup]14 [/sup](Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. [sup]15 [/sup]They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) [sup]16 [/sup]This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

What I see here are unbelievers who have the law written on their hearts and obeying it, they are being righteous. What I don't see is Paul condemning them for doing so.

My question would be what of unbelieving righteous people? How is God viewing them? There are many verses that speak of evil people perishing, but would God see these people as evil and deserving of perishing them?

Thank you.

Matthew 25 sheep and goats judgment is for the nations that do not know Christ. Those who helped the cause of God will be spared...the righteous are scarecely saved.

Those who did hear the gospel and rejected it will be condemned. But one does not need to hear the gospel in order to be eternally saved. However...how will the wicked repent and be saved unless they hear the gospel? So the gospel is about saving the wicked NOT the righteous. Jesus did not come to call the righteous to repentance. The righteous, however, are invited to participate in the kingdom through discipleship in becoming the bride as the wicked are. There are no favourites with God.

If a Christian is still walking in his own strength and sinning...yet claims he is righteous because of his faith AND then condemns others who are not of his religion calling their righteousness unrighteousness...then he will lose his righteous standing and be judged as unrighteous himself.

Judge not lest you be judged!


But if a man is walking in Christ in the Spirit then he speaking the words of Christ. When the Spirit moves him to speak judment against unbelievers (or believers) then it will be counted to him for righteousness...since he is speaking as the oracle of GOd.

 

[JohnnyB]

Hi Episkopos!

First of all, thank you for your reply, it was not what I was expecting due to popular belief, but it answers many of the questions I have been struggling with. What I am gathering from what you have said is that you might say the Bible is the standard for believers, but it does not apply to non-believers, but that we as Believers have placed these same standards onto them when they do not apply at all and in doing so, we are judging them according to the knowledge God has given to us, and reaping huge judgement against ourselves? If I got it right, that is freeing indeed!

I understand the righteousness of God.

You said, "one does not need to hear the gospel in order to be saved", so what is this group who are saved but have no knowledge, they are not the bride nor the sons of God? Where do they fit in?

Thanks.

I just thought of another question, if we are all born into the sin nature, believers are given a new nature, but unbelievers retain the original, how would this person be eventually saved? No flesh and blood can enter heaven. How would this work?

Thanks again.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopos!

First of all, thank you for your reply, it was not what I was expecting due to popular belief, but it answers many of the questions I have been struggling with. What I am gathering from what you have said is that you might say the Bible is the standard for believers, but it does not apply to non-believers, but that we as Believers have placed these same standards onto them when they do not apply at all and in doing so, we are judging them according to the knowledge God has given to us, and reaping huge judgement against ourselves? If I got it right, that is freeing indeed!

We are not called to judge those outside the church....God judges them.

1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

I understand the righteousness of God.

You said, "one does not need to hear the gospel in order to be saved", so what is this group who are saved but have no knowledge, they are not the bride nor the sons of God? Where do they fit in?

I would say that one does not need to hear the gospel in order to be saved for eternity. To be saved NOW we must obey the gospel. God will save many AT JUDGMENT. But these will be surprised (and grateful) that they have been forgiven.

Thanks.

I just thought of another question, if we are all born into the sin nature, believers are given a new nature, but unbelievers retain the original, how would this person be eventually saved? No flesh and blood can enter heaven. How would this work?

Thanks again.

If we see salvation as an unmerited gift from God then who will decide WHEN God can give this gift. Many will say that God isn't being fair. But we have a parable for this. The parable of the pennies.

A saved righteous person does not have a place is the city of God. Only the saints do. You will remember that the righteous a scarcely saved... they are not in the bride. But they will attend the wedding!

If you think of the righteous as villagers, the saints as royalty, and the rejected of Christ the vagabonds...you get the idea.

That is why Jesus says that prostitutes will get into heaven faster than the Pharisees will. In other words the sinners have a shot at being in the righteous...but the liars among the people of God are destined to be cast out as vagabonds into outer darkness.

Here is the sin that cuts off the self-righteous...
Joh_9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.


So the order is...

the saints (the bride who reigns over the nations with Christ)
the righteous(who populate the nations)
the filthy (who soil their garments and wander in outer darkness)
the wicked (who perish in the lake of fire)

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.



Peace

 

[JohnnyB]

This has been much to take in and I almost have a headache. This is great however and I appreciate your patience with me - thank you!

I want to back up and ensure we are on the same page with the righteousness of God or as you refer to the upper level. This would be the grace given to enable us to be empowered to walk in the Spirit, as in a supernatural walk. Correct?

We are not called to judge those outside the church....God judges them.

1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Agreed! Yet this is why I have been struggling because we tend to put our standards onto them and expect their behaviors to be ours and when they fall short, we judge.

On a side note, I believe the Bible does tell us we are, when walking with the Spirit and abiding in Christ, able to judge other believers as described in Matthew 7.

I would say that one does not need to hear the gospel in order to be saved for eternity. To be saved NOW we must obey the gospel. God will save many AT JUDGMENT. But these will be surprised (and grateful) that they have been forgiven.

Jesus did die for all men, He has mercy on whom He has mercy and in studying what you have written, I did revisit examples of righteousness done by Gentiles, like Zaccheus who gave money to the poor before Jesus told Him salvation had come to his house that day. You mention the Good Samaritan I believe and in Luke 7, the prostitute who washed Jesus' feet, there are more.

For those who have heard the gospel, we must now obey it, presenting ourselves as pleasing and accepting to the Lord, not the other away around.

If we see salvation as an unmerited gift from God then who will decide WHEN God can give this gift. Many will say that God isn't being fair. But we have a parable for this. The parable of the pennies.

I never thought this was very fair either.

A saved righteous person does not have a place is the city of God. Only the saints do. You will remember that the righteous a scarcely saved... they are not in the bride. But they will attend the wedding!

If you think of the righteous as villagers, the saints as royalty, and the rejected of Christ the vagabonds...you get the idea.

That is why Jesus says that prostitutes will get into heaven faster than the Pharisees will. In other words the sinners have a shot at being in the righteous...but the liars among the people of God are destined to be cast out as vagabonds into outer darkness.

Here is the sin that cuts off the self-righteous...
Joh_9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.


So the order is...

the saints (the bride who reigns over the nations with Christ)
the righteous(who populate the nations)
the filthy (who soil their garments and wander in outer darkness)
the wicked (who perish in the lake of fire)

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.



Peace

Righteousness is the very basic requirement for salvation because "the righteous are scarcely saved". I think I got it!

 

[Episkopos]

This has been much to take in and I almost have a headache. This is great however and I appreciate your patience with me - thank you!

I want to back up and ensure we are on the same page with the righteousness of God or as you refer to the upper level. This would be the grace given to enable us to be empowered to walk in the Spirit, as in a supernatural walk. Correct?

Correct! We have ben given an inside track in order to go beyond righteousness and into holiness which is the righteousness of God. So we are playing in the major leagues so to speak. But this comes with a higher responsibility. It is better to do well in the monor league than flunk out in the majors...

Agreed! Yet this is why I have been struggling because we tend to put our standards onto them and expect their behaviors to be ours and when they fall short, we judge.

Yes! We are to show them the better way through example. They should be seeking us out...

On a side note, I believe the Bible does tell us we are, when walking with the Spirit and abiding in Christ, able to judge other believers as described in Matthew 7.

We can speak as the oracle of God through the Spirit.


J

esus did die for all men, He has mercy on whom He has mercy and in studying what you have written, I did revisit examples of righteousness done by Gentiles, like Zaccheus who gave money to the poor before Jesus told Him salvation had come to his house that day. You mention the Good Samaritan I believe and in Luke 7, the prostitute who washed Jesus' feet, there are more.

Very good! You are a future leader!!

For those who have heard the gospel, we must now obey it, presenting ourselves as pleasing and accepting to the Lord, not the other away around.

Yes ...to whom much is given more is required...but the glory is greater too!

I never thought this was very fair either.



Righteousness is the very basic requirement for salvation because "the righteous are scarcely saved". I think I got it!

You have it!!!! The saints are abundantly saved!!

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Episkopos,

I'm not sure I agree with

But one does not need to hear the gospel in order to be eternally saved.

This definitely applies to the children of Israel who died under the law.

And I can see that it may apply to Gentiles before Christ for the reasons Paul gives in Romans 2, which JohnnyB quoted, and the end of Romans 2 where Paul asks - 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

But Paul goes on to say in Romans 3:9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one.... ending with 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Johnny, I'm glad you asked this question, because my understanding is being refined as I study it.

The problem I'm coming to, is these verses at the end of Romans 2, which seem to be referring to righteousness by faith in Jesus Christ (because of the mention of circumcison of the heart), even though Paul has not finished making his case which concludes at Romans 3:23.

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter;

whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.​

So this raises a question I had never considered - and have never heard preached upon - namely.... does this mean that those who kept the law flawlessly (acknowledging their sins, bringing their tithes and offerings with mourning over 'the sin' in their hearts Eze 9:4), were 'circumcised in heart' - were not 'stiff-necked' (idolatrous, proud) Deu 10:16, 2 Chron 30:8, Acts 7:51?

And yet still, this was not the circumcision of Jesus Christ? Col 2:11

Look at this as a parallel:

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying to the people, that they should

believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. ​

5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.


From that account of the disciples at Ephesus, it seems that an important part of John's message had been lost even to those who had been baptised, for they had not heard of Jesus Christ, who would baptise them in the Holy Spirit.


This is where we start hitting rough doctrinal waters,

- so I'll wait for your response before dipping the next toe in.



You see, your example in another thread of a Muslim being 'saved' by doing the 'right' thing, concerns me, because they have Jesus Christ as one of their prophets, and this does cause some Muslims to study Christianity. Obviously, because they are threatened with beheading if they convert to Christ, they need significant spiritual proof that He really is the true Prophet of eternal life - and God usually gives it to them somehow. The fact is, they know that Christians claim to have miracles done for them, and this causes them to pray extraordinary prayers in extreme circumstances (such as a Muslim who was on a hijacked plane, who prayed to the God of the Christians for the first time, that if God would save his life out of that situation, he would become a Christian - which God did, and he did,) and so I really do fear that the Islamic teaching to do good deeds to outweigh one's bad deeds, falls way way short of the kind of righteousness which Paul refers to in Romans 2. Isa 64:6

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopos,

I'm not sure I agree with



This definitely applies to the children of Israel who died under the law.

And I can see that it may apply to Gentiles before Christ for the reasons Paul gives in Romans 2, which JohnnyB quoted, and the end of Romans 2 where Paul asks - 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

But Paul goes on to say in Romans 3:9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one.... ending with 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Johnny, I'm glad you asked this question, because my understanding is being refined as I study it.

The problem I'm coming to, is these verses at the end of Romans 2, which seem to be referring to righteousness by faith in Jesus Christ (because of the mention of circumcison of the heart), even though Paul has not finished making his case which concludes at Romans 3:23.

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter;

whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.​

So this raises a question I had never considered - and have never heard preached upon - namely.... does this mean that those who kept the law flawlessly (acknowledging their sins, bringing their tithes and offerings with mourning over 'the sin' in their hearts Eze 9:4), were 'circumcised in heart' - were not 'stiff-necked' (idolatrous, proud) Deu 10:16, 2 Chron 30:8, Acts 7:51?

And yet still, this was not the circumcision of Jesus Christ? Col 2:11

Look at this as a parallel:

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying to the people, that they should

believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. ​

5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.


From that account of the disciples at Ephesus, it seems that an important part of John's message had been lost even to those who had been baptised, for they had not heard of Jesus Christ, who would baptise them in the Holy Spirit.


This is where we start hitting rough doctrinal waters,

- so I'll wait for your response before dipping the next toe in.



You see, your example in another thread of a Muslim being 'saved' by doing the 'right' thing, concerns me, because they have Jesus Christ as one of their prophets, and this does cause some Muslims to study Christianity. Obviously, because they are threatened with beheading if they convert to Christ, they need significant spiritual proof that He really is the true Prophet of eternal life - and God usually gives it to them somehow. The fact is, they know that Christians claim to have miracles done for them, and this causes them to pray extraordinary prayers in extreme circumstances (such as a Muslim who was on a hijacked plane, who prayed to the God of the Christians for the first time, that if God would save his life out of that situation, he would become a Christian - which God did, and he did,) and so I really do fear that the Islamic teaching to do good deeds to outweigh one's bad deeds, falls way way short of the kind of righteousness which Paul refers to in Romans 2. Isa 64:6

Hi D!!!!

Sounds weird eh???

OK....we have to see the truth as a dialectic that has 2 poles. Or actually one big long pole that seems too heavy to pick up. One tends to pick one truth while leaving the other truth (end of the pole) on the ground. So let us look at the whole counsel of God in balance.

Salvation in the bible does not always mean an eternal salvation the same way that judgment does not always mean eternal judgment the same way that prosperity does not always mean eternal prosperity.

God is a dispenser of both mercy and truth. He is..as it were...easy to please but hard to satisfy. If we look at the whole counsel of God we see both the goodness AND severity of God. God IS merciful and full of love. He judges us according to our own judgment of others. He judges us by our words and deeds and thoughts.

So to whom much is given MORE is required...and to whom less is given LESS is required. To a certain point.

Let's look at that statement again...

But one does not need to hear the gospel in order to be eternally saved.

The gospel is not about salvation from going to hell so that whoever doesn't HEAR the gospel is doomed to hell fire. It a chance for doomed sinners to become the special project of God who is looking for a bride for His Son. It is a call to repentance for sinners to turn from their sin in order to partake of a new life in Christ. The goal of the gospel is not to bring the universe into balance...but to create a people that are in love with God and zealous for extravagant good works. Those who are forgiven much...love much. So the gospel is about love....the love of God AND the creation of a people of love that are overflowing with joy!

I see the righteous (law abiders) as Martha...and the saints as Mary (using the 2 sisters of Lazarus as an example) We see this also in the parable of the prodigal son. The older son is righteous and the errant younger son is the saint.

The problem with righteous people is that they are locked in a routine of good behaviour but without the passion of the forgiven one...where sin abounds so does grace.

So the righteous have difficulty with God's mercy towards others who seem to lack a sense of responsibility. At least up till that point. God loves to create! He loves to make a new creation out of a deeply flawed specimen...then He falls in love with the end product!!!! Like the wonderful story of the 2 men who wagered that the teacher could not take a tramp off the street and turn her into a lady (My fair lady).

Getting back on topic...the gospel is about receiving eternal life NOW. It is about building ON Jesus Christ...to a perfect attainment of the stature of Christ.

But who will hear this gospel???? SINNERS!!!!!! So the sinners leapfrog over the righteous ones to take on the righteousness of God. These go to the head of the line.

The gospel is about making sinners into the bride of Christ. That is the purpose from God.

Why not just ask the righteous to go faster? What? Tell the righteous to be MORE obedient? Where is the motivation? Why try to fix what isn't broken??? So Jesus comes to call the sinners to repentance not the righteous.

So God starts from scratch with the failed ones. He causes the righteous to be jealous of His attentions to the others who show no promise at all. This is what we Gentiles are supposed to be showing to the Jews.

If one is not on the road to becoming the bride...are they going to hell???? Hell...no!

Not necessarily. Who will attend the wedding? Who will be ruled over by the saints?

So in Mat. 25 we see the second judgment AFTER the millenial rule of Christ (with the saints). The criteria is NOT whether they believed the gospel....but on how they treated others (especially the saints).

There are 2 resurrections and judgments.

The first is to glory or shame (as judged by the gospel)
The second to life or death. (as judged by whether they pleased God by their deeds)

So the first will be last and the last will be first. The first judgment is according to the NEW Covenant and the second according to the OLD covenant.

Are you with me still?

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Episkopos,

First thank you for your efforts!

You might need to dig deep into your patience pockets! Am I with you so far? Well, you haven't really given me enough definitions to answer one way or the other, the reason being, the gospel was preached to Abraham, but, I don't think that's what you have in mind.

So, please define 'gospel'.

And, please define 'righteous', taking account of both the children of Israel and the Gentiles, and separating the eras of time, namely, before the law, during the law and under the New Covenant.


The reason I ask, is that it's not clear to me you've thought these through, but, I could be wrong.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopos,

First thank you for your efforts!

You might need to dig deep into your patience pockets! Am I with you so far? Well, you haven't really given me enough definitions to answer one way or the other, the reason being, the gospel was preached to Abraham, but, I don't think that's what you have in mind.

So, please define 'gospel'.

And, please define 'righteous', taking account of both the children of Israel and the Gentiles, and separating the eras of time, namely, before the law, during the law and under the New Covenant.


The reason I ask, is that it's not clear to me you've thought these through, but, I could be wrong.

The OT was based on what men can do in their own efforts. Doing what is right is possible for men...in spite of the weakness of the flesh. When men sinned they turned to God in sacrifice and humility...if they were righteous that is!

The problem is that some men seek to get with the righteous by pointing out their own works saying...SEE! I'm righteous too!!!! These are the self-righteous..never to be confused with the actual righteous.

The law of righteousness is found in Ez. 18 (also 33).

Eze 18:5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, ......

Study these chapters realizing that God doesn't change. When we see Jesus justifying Zacchaus He is using the law of righteousness to do so. So we will be known by the rightness of our actions. If a man sins then he makes reparations thus maintaining rightness.

This is the OT standard of righteousness leading to life in eternity. He shall not die. Jesus backs up this law by saying..whoever gives a cup of cold water to one of these shall not lose his reward....Whoever receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man receives a righteous man's reward.

So we are made righteous by loving our neighbours and doing good to all as much as it is possible for us to do so. A righteous man hates wickedness and speaks out against it.

All this is in the strength of a man with yet a fallen nature.

The law of Moses was based on holiness...a temple holiness based on being separate from all the other nations...ex...circumcision, sacrifices, kosher laws...sabbath rest..etc..

These laws have been done away with in the new creation which is already holy and spiritual in NATURE.

So do we condemn righteousness through this new holiness? Never!....yea we establish it!!!!!

So we see the 2 levels of righteousness...ours and His.

A Christian comes at this from the top down...he/she begins as a new creation in Christ..being already holy unto God. But we must add righteousness (2 Pet. 1) in order to complete our character so as to measure up to Christ in His stature.

 

[JohnnyB]

You bring up some good points DF, thanks for bringing these issues up, it's good to contrast and work these things out, for me it broadens my understanding.

My hope is that I am understanding you correctly DF and your concerns, and I convey my comprehension adequately. You brought up the issue of Muslim's (I'm not sure what thread this was discussed previously), and in light of what Episkopos is saying, they would be responsible for the amount of knowledge they are given. They believe there is a god, they believe he created the earth, they know he exists, they pray, could it be they simply misunderstand it all (and lack knowledge) and are they held responsible for this?

It seems I keep going backwards with this issue, instead of forward, but I need a clearer understanding of this. Unbelievers remain under the law of sin and death, correct? If they do not have Christ, they remain under law and will be judged by the law. When James and Paul speak of this, it seems they are ONLY referring to these types of people, not someone who once was enlightened and then fell away, these have never been regenerated, Paul tells us that at least some of the Gentiles have the law written on their hearts, so these would be judged under the law. The law was given to these. If they stumble in even one part of the law, they have become lawbreakers and will be judged as such, regardless of how many righteous acts they do. Could you clarify this for me based upon your understand, Episkopos?

Am I conveying this well enough?

 

[Episkopos]

You bring up some good points DF, thanks for bringing these issues up, it's good to contrast and work these things out, for me it broadens my understanding.

My hope is that I am understanding you correctly DF and your concerns, and I convey my comprehension adequately. You brought up the issue of Muslim's (I'm not sure what thread this was discussed previously), and in light of what Episkopos is saying, they would be responsible for the amount of knowledge they are given. They believe there is a god, they believe he created the earth, they know he exists, they pray, could it be they simply misunderstand it all (and lack knowledge) and are they held responsible for this?

It seems I keep going backwards with this issue, instead of forward, but I need a clearer understanding of this. Unbelievers remain under the law of sin and death, correct? If they do not have Christ, they remain under law and will be judged by the law. When James and Paul speak of this, it seems they are ONLY referring to these types of people, not someone who once was enlightened and then fell away, these have never been regenerated, Paul tells us that at least some of the Gentiles have the law written on their hearts, so these would be judged under the law. The law was given to these. If they stumble in even one part of the law, they have become lawbreakers and will be judged as such, regardless of how many righteous acts they do.

Am I conveying this well enough?

This is all true...but don't forget that God is merciful. Christians like to say that God gives "mercy for nothing". And these don't complain as long as God behaves they way they want...

But God is more merciful than men are.

Here is a little story I made up to illustrate my point.

There once was a king who decided to disguise himself as a peasant in order to see what his people were really like. One day while travelling along the road he fell breaking his leg. A local farmer found him, carried him home and nursed him back to health.

Now...he did not recognize the king as the king....he helped the king as he would any other man.

So modern Christianity would condemn the farmer because he did not recognize the king. But what would the king do to the farmer? The answer depends on our understanding of the character of God.

Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

 

[JohnnyB]

It would depend on what kind of king he was.

He would be rewarded.

I'm not sure this clears it up for me though, if they are not regenerated, they will be judged by the law, if they have shown mercy, they will be given mercy.

Are you saying you agree these will be judged by the law?

 

[Episkopos]

It would depend on what kind of king he was.

He would be rewarded.

I'm not sure this clears it up for me though, if they are not regenerated, they will be judged by the law, if they have shown mercy, they will be given mercy.

Are you saying you agree these will be judged by the law?

Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Those who have pleased God will be shown mercy. It has to do with our heart attitude. The law is there to test us and our works. But the farmer was not trying to justify himself through works of the law...he was doing the law from his heart.....naturally!

The error of modern Christianity is to make God a Christian God who only accepts good works done by church goers. This is patently ridiculous of course.

God is not interested if you can spell His name right or sing "the old rugged cross".

The balance to the law of sin and death is that the righteous will not live with God. They are separated from God by walls (Jerusalem) therefore that "death" (separation) is seen to in the law. But God makes it work for those who please Him.

So the saints will rule over those who are barely saved. The law both condemns the righteous AND justifies the righteous. God will decide the outcome.

If God is willing to forgive a Christian who sins in the new nature why is it so hard to understand that He can forgive those who have been given far less to work with?

 

[JohnnyB]

The law was also given as a standard, it was a shadow for better things to come, and now that the better way is here what do you say about Romans 2? All men were given at least a basic knowledge of God so that no man is without excuse.

How do you reconcile this scripture?

Thanks.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Episkopos,

I hate to say this, but you really are skipping over quite a few technicalities to arrive at what you've posted.

This is the OT standard of righteousness leading to life in eternity. He shall not die.

There is a techincal reason for this to which your reply does not allude. Do you know what it is?

 

[Episkopos]

The law was also given as a standard, it was a shadow for better things to come, and now that the better way is here what do you say about Romans 2? All men were given at least a basic knowledge of God so that no man is without excuse.

How do you reconcile this scripture?

Thanks.

They are without excuse who behave unrighteously with the law or without the law.

The law is not against the righteous. It is just that the righteous are unable of themselves to fully accomplish the law because the law is holy. So therefore by deeds of the law shall no man be justified. No man can justify himself by the law since the law is too high a standard for him. By claiming he is justified by the law he condemns himself as unrighteous in his judgment...since the law surpasses his ability to perform it. Only in Christ can we fulfill the WHOLE law including the standard of holiness within it. So our boast is not in ourselves.

Why was the publican justified???? Was he a saint? Of course not. But he measured his lack of lawfulness correctly declaring himself a sinner and went humbly to God in repentance seeking mercy. God is NOT a tyrant! He is easy to please in this way. He is merciful. Christians should understand this.

When the rich young ruler asked Jesus how he could be saved....what did Jesus say? Say the sinners prayer???

Jesus said...obey the law!!!!

That is the first level.

Then when pressed for more Jesus said if you will be PERFECT.... (not saved) sell all you have and be extravagant with ME!!!! Do you see? !!

Hi Episkopos,

I hate to say this, but you really are skipping over quite a few technicalities to arrive at what you've posted.



There is a techincal reason for this to which your reply does not allude. Do you know what it is?

Like God changed His word???? God promised that those who repent of evil and do right will not die...but live. this is not a promise of rewards or of honour...simply life.

A Christian accomplishes the law by abiding in Christ...not relying on our own righteousness which is insufficient for the high calling we have to be holy as God is holy.

You don't put a sports car on a dirt road...neither new wine in old wineskins. You leave the old car on the dirt road...but put the sports car on a smooth paved road in order to obtain high speeds. So it is with we who have been given grace to outperform the righteous plodders who drive carefully among the potholes.

The highway of holiness is a smooth road so that even bad drivers have a smooth ride...

Is. 35:8 A highway will be there, a roadway, And it will be called the Highway of Holiness. The unclean will not travel on it, But it will be for him who walks that way, And fools will not wander on it.

 

[JohnnyB]

They are without excuse who behave unrighteously with the law or without the law.

Oh, I think I see this now, we are all given the writing of the law on our hearts and when we do unrighteous, we are without excuse.

The law is not against the righteous. It is just that the righteous are unable of themselves to fully accomplish the law because the law is holy. So therefore by deeds of the law shall no man be justified. No man can justify himself by the law since the law is too high a standard for him. By claiming he is justified by the law he condemns himself as unrighteous in his judgment...since the law surpasses his ability to perform it. Only in Christ can we fulfill the WHOLE law including the standard of holiness within it. So our boast is not in ourselves.

Why was the publican justified???? Was he a saint? Of course not. But he measured his lack of lawfulness correctly declaring himself a sinner and went humbly to God in repentance seeking mercy. God is NOT a tyrant! He is easy to please in this way. He is merciful. Christians should understand this.

When the rich young ruler asked Jesus how he could be saved....what did Jesus say? Say the sinners prayer???

Jesus said...obey the law!!!!

That is the first level.

Then when pressed for more Jesus said if you will be PERFECT.... (not saved) sell all you have and be extravagant with ME!!!! Do you see? !!

I see what you are saying but when speaking of balance, there is no mercy without justice, just as there is no righteous without unrighteous, we wholeheartedly accept the mercy, but forget about justice. I'm not saying you are doing that, it's just when you speak of the Law of Righteousness, Ezekial 18 does speak of both.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi JohnnyB,

You bring up some good points DF, thanks for bringing these issues up, it's good to contrast and work these things out, for me it broadens my understanding.

My hope is that I am understanding you correctly DF and your concerns, and I convey my comprehension adequately. You brought up the issue of Muslim's (I'm not sure what thread this was discussed previously), and in light of what Episkopos is saying, they would be responsible for the amount of knowledge they are given. They believe there is a god, they believe he created the earth, they know he exists, they pray, could it be they simply misunderstand it all (and lack knowledge) and are they held responsible for this?

It seems I keep going backwards with this issue, instead of forward, but I need a clearer understanding of this. Unbelievers remain under the law of sin and death, correct? If they do not have Christ, they remain under law and will be judged by the law. When James and Paul speak of this, it seems they are ONLY referring to these types of people, not someone who once was enlightened and then fell away, these have never been regenerated, Paul tells us that at least some of the Gentiles have the law written on their hearts, so these would be judged under the law. The law was given to these. If they stumble in even one part of the law, they have become lawbreakers and will be judged as such, regardless of how many righteous acts they do.

About Muslims, because Jesus Christ is one of their prophets, I believe they have a bigger difficulty to overcome than a religion which does not name Jesus Christ. They also have respect to Mary, His mother, and that only adds to their burden when refusing to accept Him as 'that Prophet' of whom Moses spoke, rather than Mohammed.

Think about this. We are on a Christian website, and there are Christians here who do not really believe that on the cross Jesus Christ destroyed the power of the devil through His death. They have barely heard of 'victory over sin' as something to be contended with in this life on a daily basis. Maybe there is hope for some Muslims, but my feeling is that those who really want to know 'the truth' - whether in churches or mosques - will seek Him until they find Him. I strongly believe that a person 'knows' when they have heard from God, or met the Lord, and it is not a matter of guesswork. It changes them dynamically, like the blind man in John 9. They have enough common sense to know what is out of the ordinary, and whether what has happened to them is different from their previous experience.

I would like to offer you some ideas about how to think about the issues you brought up. It requires some lateral thinking, as well as some 5D (five dimensional) thinking. The fourth dimension is time. The fifth dimension is eternity. (Okay?) What Episkopos has shared is true as far as it goes, but there is a timeline running from Genesis during which God increases His revelation during successive eras, while expecting humanity to keep a hold of what it received from the preceding generation. (I hope that makes sense.)

[Imho, a useful study you could do, is to sit down with a roll of paper, and make yourself a timeline beginning at Adam, all the way to Abraham. You will notice that Adam died during the lifetime of Noah's father, and Methuselah didn't die until a year before the Flood. Then, after a bit more work, you'll discover that Noah lived pretty much up to the time of Abraham's birth. His sons were still living when Abraham was called by God to leave Ur. I may sound as if I'm rambling here, but, I want you to think about the psychological implications to 'society', of living either in the time of Adam, or, the time of Noah. In the passing, make a note of who Elam was, and relate that to Job's sacrifices.]

Genesis 3:21
Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Genesis 4:4
And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof.
And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

There are other places in the OT where individuals offer a sacrifice to God. The Gentiles were in relationship with Him, and although scripture doesn't tell us exactly how, it seems to follow from the shedding of blood in the garden of Eden, which were recognised from ancient times to have real meaning. Particularly where a covenant was made between two men, such as that their families would not fight each other any more, it was unthinkable to break the terms of the agreement. In other words, there was real honour at a level which has all but disappeared from our 'world'. Sacrifices to God were understood to have real meaning, and God expected them to be made as a response to His continuing grace towards them while they were profoundly alienated from Him through sin.

Idolatry, also, is always present, Gen 3:6, as it is a natural outworking of the sinful nature. John 3:20

The law of Moses was very specific to the children of Israel who had come out of Egypt, but we see from the beginning of the Hebrew epistle that God was already judging each generation within its own time - even of those people who were in the closest relationship with Him. Yet within the law of Moses, from the very beginning, there is provision for Gentiles to be joined permanently to Israel though certain rituals. They are still regarded as strangers depending on various factors, but in some cases they are assimilated into Israel after a certain number of generations. God Himself did not force Gentiles to stay separate from Israel, (but the genealogies of Israelite families was important until Jesus Christ came, so all prophecy about Him was fulfilled) and thus they could enjoy the same blessings as Israel.

They moved from one sacrificial system to another. That's why Romans 2:16 is of interest, and, why I was asking Episkopos to say more about what defines righteousness down the ages. 2 Peter 3:9. Because, while Israelites were dying under the law of Moses, Gentiles who remained Gentiles, were also dying, and we learn from Paul that Jesus Christ is going to judge them/us all.

Paul makes a big deal in Ephesians 2, of the difference made by Christ's death on the cross, to the relationship of the Gentiles to God, but there are other verses in the NT of interest, such as Acts 17:24 - 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent. Acts 17:31. (Eph 2:4)


Reflecting on the law of Moses-

Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Hebrews 10:4
For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.



I feel I've come to the end of what I want to say right now, but I trust you have food for Bible study, and extra-biblical study, towards the answers to your questions.

Hi JohnnyB,

Johnny, I'm not sure that the law of God which is written on our hearts by the circumcison of Christ, is the same as the 'work of the law' which Paul says may (back then) have been written in the Gentiles' hearts (in Romans 2). Just saying. Not sure it's the same. Not sure which 'standard' is in view - the law of Moses, or ... ?


Hi Episkopos,

Like God changed His word???? God promised that those who repent of evil and do right will not die...but live. this is not a promise of rewards or of honour...simply life.

I don't think God changed His word, but if you're referring to Ezekiel 18, He was speaking to Israelites.

Do you think this applied to Gentiles as well?

 

[JohnnyB]

Hi JohnnyB,

Johnny, I'm not sure that the law of God which is written on our hearts by the circumcison of Christ, is the same as the 'work of the law' which Paul says may (back then) have been written in the Gentiles' hearts (in Romans 2). Just saying. Not sure it's the same. Not sure which 'standard' is in view - the law of Moses, or ... ?

Hi DF,

The Law of Righteousness maybe? God has placed in us to know right from wrong. The law God wrote on our hearts by the circumcision of Christ, is to love the Lord with all heart, mind, soul (Holiness) and love your neighbors has yourself (righteousness).