Romans 8

[ScottA]

You keep posting your opinions and calling them verses.

You keep missing the word of God in my posts, unless it has quotation marks and chapter and verse. That's not how it's done.

 

[CoreIssue]

You keep missing the word of God in my posts, unless it has quotation marks and chapter and verse. That's not how it's done.

How it works is like Genesis 1:1
Plus copy and paste the verses nice.

Not your interpretation.

 

[ScottA]

How it works is like Genesis 1:1
Plus copy and paste the verses nice.

Not your interpretation.

Wrong again.

How it actually works, is how Jesus did it, and He never gave chapter and verse, and often paraphrased...as did all the prophets.

 

[CoreIssue]

Wrong again.

How it actually works, is how Jesus did it, and He never gave chapter and verse, and often paraphrased...as did all the prophets.

Meaning you cannot handle the truth of Romans 8.

Sure cannot explain the verses.

 

[ScottA]

Meaning you cannot handle the truth of Romans 8.

Sure cannot explain the verses.

Sounds like it is you who is just spouting his opinion. Your insecurity is showing.

 

[FHII]

First, I am not a Calvinist. I am a Christian and that is the only title I claim. Not even a Protestant. I have read much of Calvin's work, and while admiring it as a whole, he is not my leader.

That being said, I do believe in predestination, and the belief that one's life is not only known, but determined by God.

He does not preprogrammed us to think in a certain way on any topic.

So what determines how we think? Our environment has the biggest say in this, as far as I can see. I am talking about who our parents are, when and where we are born, who our associates are, etc.

We absolutely are not destined to follow in those footsteps. And I hate to get so philosophical about it, but we don't have a lot of control over the starting point.

My point is this... If you grow up in an athiest family environment, how is change going to take place? How would a child growing up with parents and family telling them that there is no God change his mind and go against all that surrounded him?

As we grow up, SOMETHING is programming us. Or are we not at least partially influenced by our environment? I would suggest we are strongly influenced by our environment, and ask what could possibly allow us to break that? What was the spark or the incidence? Who caused it?

Notice the love comes before the call.

I am addressing things out of order, but for a reason. I hope you will allow me to do that. "Love" is mentioned before the call. But does this mean it's a chronological thing? Is this really an order of operations?

Romans 8:28 KJV
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

This verse does not say you must FIRST love God, then you will be called. Is this where I can reconcile other verses with Romans 8? Because God picked Jeremiah to carry his message before he was born, and I am assuming that means before Jeremiah loved God. He brought Paul down before he was converted.

So does love always come before the call? No, the call comes first. In the same letter (Romans) Paul noted the faith comes by hearing the word of God, and you can't hear without a preacher.

So you have this "free will". Yet something influenced you to seek out or at least look into this man called Jesus. Who, in your free will, did that? Who started the fire?

Bottom line: .this verse lists love first, but it doesn't say we must love him first... Why... I could even give you a scripture that says that ain't true.

1 John 4:19 KJV
We love him, because he first loved us.

programmed to act and respond in certain ways cannot love. It just obeys.

Robots. I hear always about robots. No, be aren't robots and the Bible never says we are robots. Heck, Robots weren't even around then!

No, we are not robots. But are we sheep?

John 10:27 KJV
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

I can milk this discourse quite a bit. Want me to????

OSAS.

That includes yourself. You are part of creation but nothing in all creation can take you from God's hand.

I agree most heartedly! If we are called no man-- even us-- can escape.

My view on predestination overall is thus:. It is not something we can claim. There are those who are predestined, but we don't receive that knowledge until we are done.

Predestination is real, God knows what we will do and he declared irlt from the beginning. I see that as God working with me (whom he created) and setting up road blocks and chutes to get me where I am.

So if you want to say from Romans 8:28 that we must first love God before we are called... Fine. ThataThnot whatwthe versevis sayings but I will appease you. But before we love God, aAllthings worked together for good.

 

[CoreIssue]

First, I am not a Calvinist. I am a Christian and that is the only title I claim. Not even a Protestant. I have read much of Calvin's work, and while admiring it as a whole, he is not my leader.

That being said, I do believe in predestination, and the belief that one's life is not only known, but determined by God.



So what determines how we think? Our environment has the biggest say in this, as far as I can see. I am talking about who our parents are, when and where we are born, who our associates are, etc.

We absolutely are not destined to follow in those footsteps. And I hate to get so philosophical about it, but we don't have a lot of control over the starting point.

My point is this... If you grow up in an athiest family environment, how is change going to take place? How would a child growing up with parents and family telling them that there is no God change his mind and go against all that surrounded him?

As we grow up, SOMETHING is programming us. Or are we not at least partially influenced by our environment? I would suggest we are strongly influenced by our environment, and ask what could possibly allow us to break that? What was the spark or the incidence? Who caused it?



I am addressing things out of order, but for a reason. I hope you will allow me to do that. "Love" is mentioned before the call. But does this mean it's a chronological thing? Is this really an order of operations?

Romans 8:28 KJV
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

This verse does not say you must FIRST love God, then you will be called. Is this where I can reconcile other verses with Romans 8? Because God picked Jeremiah to carry his message before he was born, and I am assuming that means before Jeremiah loved God. He brought Paul down before he was converted.

So does love always come before the call? No, the call comes first. In the same letter (Romans) Paul noted the faith comes by hearing the word of God, and you can't hear without a preacher.

So you have this "free will". Yet something influenced you to seek out or at least look into this man called Jesus. Who, in your free will, did that? Who started the fire?

Bottom line: .this verse lists love first, but it doesn't say we must love him first... Why... I could even give you a scripture that says that ain't true.

1 John 4:19 KJV
We love him, because he first loved us.




Robots. I hear always about robots. No, be aren't robots and the Bible never says we are robots. Heck, Robots weren't even around then!

No, we are not robots. But are we sheep?

John 10:27 KJV
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

I can milk this discourse quite a bit. Want me to????

I agree most heartedly! If we are called no man-- even us-- can escape.

My view on predestination overall is thus:. It is not something we can claim. There are those who are predestined, but we don't receive that knowledge until we are done.

Predestination is real, God knows what we will do and he declared irlt from the beginning. I see that as God working with me (whom he created) and setting up road blocks and chutes to get me where I am.

So if you want to say from Romans 8:28 that we must first love God before we are called... Fine. ThataThnot whatwthe versevis sayings but I will appease you. But before we love God, aAllthings worked together for good.

Knowledge of good and evil God put in every human contains a realization there is something much greater than us. God.

That does not mean we will all find the right God but as the Bible says he will guide us all to if we want him.

26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God

Pretty clear here love before predestination.

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, have been called according to his purpose.
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

I can milk this discourse quite a bit. Want me to????

No. The purpose of the thread to show Calvinists cannot deal with Romans 8. Bringing in other things cranks them up to bringing in another thing as they always do, thus killing the thread.

You cannot compare robots and sheep. They make choices that Calvinism you don't. Robots do not make choices.

Yes there is most assuredly predestination. But it is based on foreknowledge, not a dice roll by God.

Calvinism there is no free will but in the Bible your most assuredly.

Several times I have posted a listing of 79 verses talking about seeking God. But Calvinism says no one seeks God.

 

[Enoch111]

It gets a bit tiring to see Calvinists constantly deny or try to misquote Romans

True. Particularly the misapplication of Romans 9. But in order to arrive at Romans 8, we need to see some key truths from the beginning.

IS SAVING FAITH A GIFT FROM GOD, OR IS THE GOSPEL GIVEN TO GENERATE FAITH?
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Rom 1:16)

DOES THE GOODNESS OF GOD LEAD TO REPENTANCE?
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? (Rom 2:4)

DOES GOD ELECT SOME FOR SALVATION AND OTHERS FOR DAMNATION?
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. (Rom 2:9-11)

DO THE UNSAVED HAVE A CONSCIENCE, AND CAN ACTUALLY DO RIGHTEOUS DEEDS?
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. (Rom 2:14-16)

HAVE ALL SINNED AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD, AND DO ALL NEED TO BE JUSTIFIED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH?
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (Rom 3:23-26)

THEREFORE CAN ANYONE BOAST OF HIS SALVATION, AND CAN THIS BE CALLED "SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS"?
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. (Rom 3:27-30)

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

CoreIssue,

[It gets a bit tiring to see Calvinists constantly deny or try to misquote Romansos. So a little bit of a study here.]
When a person cannot understand they say things like this



God knows what we think. God knows how we think. God knows what we want. God knows what we should have.

[Love requires free will to choose.]

I do not see this anywhere in romans8
A robot programmed to act and respond in certain ways cannot love. It just obeys.

I do not see robots in Romans 9
[Christ died for the sins of every human being that has or ever will live. But the sinner must accept that sacrifice of their own free will.]

Strangely that is not found in Romans 8 either. It seems you are not acquainted with Romans 8 at all??

Those God foreknew would love him he predestined.

This is not found in Romans8 either. have you ever read romans 8?

[Not God predestined some to love him.]

Those sinners God set His love on ie, those sinners He foreknew, He predestined to be conformed to the Image of His Son

And here's the biggie.Those who would love him he predestined.

Not taught in Romans 8 once again

[Then he called them not he called them to be predestined.]

All of the elect are predestined and called.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

It gets a bit tiring to see Calvinists constantly deny or try to misquote Romansos. So a little bit of a study here.



God knows what we think. God knows how we think. God knows what we want. God knows what we should have.

He helps us, guides us, teaches us and gives us what we need.

He does not preprogrammed us to think in a certain way on any topic.

He does it all for our benefit according to the will and plan of God.


And here that is reinforced. God works for the good of those who love.

Love requires free will to choose. A robot programmed to act and respond in certain ways cannot love. It just obeys.

Notice the love comes before the call.

Christ died for the sins of every human being that has or ever will live. But the sinner must accept that sacrifice of their own free will.

Those God foreknew would love him he predestined. Not God predestined some to love him.

And here's the biggie.

Those who would love him he predestined. Then he called them not he called them to be predestined.

Meaning gave them Then he justified them, meaning at this point they had repented and free will by grace and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

And of course, once born again, at the rapture we will all be glorified.

Nothing in this allows for Calvinistic predestination.

Nothing in all of creation can take us from God. OSAS.

That includes yourself. You are part of creation but nothing in all creation can take you from God's hand.

We have total free will in choosing or rejecting God. But if we choose God we become his servant, son of God and brother of Christ.

Nothing in the Bible teaches Calvinism or conditional salvation.

If you wish to argue against what I said, remember, you can't just post another verse claiming it says something else unless she can reconcile it with Romans 8.

This OP has to be about the worst eisegesis of any text of Scripture I've ever witnessed, and that is a feat!

@CoreIssue simply adds things (his own ideology and presuppositions) into the text, and runs with it. Somehow he sees himself as loving God, so, because he loved God, God chose him. I've shown his belief to be just that in the past, then he denied it, then he makes a thread showing it to be the case...lolzzzz.

Then he calls his salvation grace, yet at the same time he is showing it to be meritorious.

It's plainly not the biblical Gospel of salvation by grace. He is preaching salvation by merit, and attempting to call it grace.

The entire OP is worship of the false god of free will and choosing oneself into heaven, which no man can do, and yet another "calvinism is a cult" thread.

Same old thing, new thread.

Carry on!

 

[Preacher4Truth]

CoreIssue,

[It gets a bit tiring to see Calvinists constantly deny or try to misquote Romansos. So a little bit of a study here.]
When a person cannot understand they say things like this



God knows what we think. God knows how we think. God knows what we want. God knows what we should have.

[Love requires free will to choose.]

I do not see this anywhere in romans8
A robot programmed to act and respond in certain ways cannot love. It just obeys.

I do not see robots in Romans 9
[Christ died for the sins of every human being that has or ever will live. But the sinner must accept that sacrifice of their own free will.]

Strangely that is not found in Romans 8 either. It seems you are not acquainted with Romans 8 at all??

Those God foreknew would love him he predestined.

This is not found in Romans8 either. have you ever read romans 8?

[Not God predestined some to love him.]

Those sinners God set His love on ie, those sinners He foreknew, He predestined to be conformed to the Image of His Son

And here's the biggie.Those who would love him he predestined.

Not taught in Romans 8 once again

[Then he called them not he called them to be predestined.]

All of the elect are predestined and called.

I suppose this is where he proved to me what he says is in Romans 8 is actually there.

But, then again, it isn't.

He's seeing things. Maybe hallucinating comes as a consolation prize for believing one merited election (conditional election) because while lost they loved God, so, because they loved God, God saved them without any grace because they needed none.

 

[CoreIssue]

This OP has to be about the worst eisegesis of any text of Scripture I've ever witnessed, and that is a feat!

@CoreIssue simply adds things (his own ideology and presuppositions) into the text, and runs with it. Somehow he sees himself as loving God, so, because he loved God, God chose him. I've shown his belief to be just that in the past, then he denied it, then he makes a thread showing it to be the case...lolzzzz.

Then he calls his salvation grace, yet at the same time he is showing it to be meritorious.

It's plainly not the biblical Gospel of salvation by grace. He is preaching salvation by merit, and attempting to call it grace.

The entire OP is worship of the false god of free will and choosing oneself into heaven, which no man can do, and yet another "calvinism is a cult" thread.

Same old thing, new thread.

Carry on!

To be expected. You attacked but failed to address the chapter verse by verse.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Hey @CoreIssue, please show us all where what you say is in Romans 8, is actually in there.

You have failed to do so thus far. Show us where it says God chose us because we loved him.

What verse is that?

Philosophizing your false religion into the text doesn't count. Using your free will crystal ball, and saying what you think the text must mean is not exegesis (getting all points from what is written without adding to the text), it's eisegesis (adding things not there into the text.) Eisegesis sums up your entire "theology" and religion as all that you believe is based on this.

Hey, at least you tried, and in doing so you've shown publicly how you add things into God's word that are not there.

 

[CoreIssue]

Hey @CoreIssue, please show us all where what you say is in Romans 8, is actually in there.

You have failed to do so thus far. Show us where it says God chose us because we loved him.

What verse is that?

Philosophizing your false religion into the text doesn't count. Using your free will crystal ball, and saying what you think the text must mean is not exegesis (getting all points from what is written without adding to the text), it's eisegesis (adding things not there into the text.) Eisegesis sums up your entire "theology" and religion as all that you believe is based on this.

Hey, at least you tried, and in doing so you've shown publicly how you add things into God's word that are not there.

Then you go through Romans 8 and explain what it means.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

To be expected. You attacked but failed to address the chapter verse by verse.

Attacked? Over-used emotional card and is baseless, like your OP.

You weren't attacked, man up.

Show us now what you say is in Romans 8 is actually there.

We are all waiting. You've failed to do so.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Then you go through Romans 8 and explain what it means.

Nope, show us the verse that says what you say is in there, then I'll do that.

I'll be waiting.

I expect your usual tuck tail, run, and dodge.

 

[CoreIssue]

Nope, show us the verse that says what you say is in there, then I'll do that.

I'll be waiting.

I expect your usual tuck tail, run, and dodge.

I already did. Your turn.

You will not because you can't.

This is what you do all the time. Spout your doctrine and attack anyone who disagrees.

Go ahead and explain the chapter like I did.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Then you go through Romans 8 and explain what it means.

post 29 addressed it.

 

[CoreIssue]

post 29 addressed it.

Normal Calvinism dodging.

I explained the chapter. Your turn.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Normal Calvinism dodging.

I explained the chapter. Your turn.

most everything you posted was not found in the chapter, but rather in your misguided post. Why is that?