Rome's 7 0F 10 Hills

[revturmoil]

How do you interpret prophecy? Do you just accept what the experts teach?

One part of a good hermeneutic is to do a simple word study of the passage. Whatever it is the author and the Spirit wanted to convey is often found in the original text.

So you say that the arms of silver signify the empire of both the Mede's and Persian's. You disregard what Daniel 5:31 and Isaiah 13:17 has to say.

Daniel 5:31
"And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old."

Isaiah 13:17
"Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, ie.(Babylon)

The bible doesn't say it was Cyrus the Persian who took Babylon but Darius the Mede.

You also disregard the fact that the second empire is said to be 'inferior' to Babylon.

The the word inferior is 'arah' which means earth, world and ground. (land).

http://www.bluelette...ongs=H772&t=KJV

The Persian Empire was not "land inferior" to Babylon. The only empire "land inferior" to Babylon was the Median empire.

Another problem with your theory is the...

Iron and clay

The fourth kingdom, symbolized as legs of iron and toes mingled with "iron and clay" doesn't come from Rome but from the Grecian Empire i.e. the Arab World.

The word mingled or mixed used to describe the toes mingled with iron and clay is an Aramaic word meaning "arab".
If you look at the bottom of the page on the link you'll see that the word denotes an Arabian and some say 'Arabia'.

So you have to expalain to me how the toes "mixed" with iron and clay infers an ITALLIAN WHEN THE WORD IS "ARAB' AND DENOTES AN ARABIAN!

http://www.bluelette...ngs=H6151&t=KJV

Daniel 2:41-43

And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

The ten toes mingled with iron and clay are a symbolic description of the people of the final kingdom. Protestant's would like you to believe these toes represent Rome or the European Union. Iron and clay do not mix and both are brittle. Arab /Muslim cultures are a mixture of many tribes and clans. They are mingled with the seed of men and have not cleaved to one another whereas the EU has. Iron and clay better represents the Ishmaelites (mixed with the seed of men) or today's Arab/Muslim world.

The Protestant's also quote Rev, 17:11 as proof that Rome is the beast.

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

This verse excludes Rome as the beast because Rome "was" in power at the time John wrote revelation. John said the beast that was... "is not". The beast did not exist at that time but Rome did!

Daniel 7

Things go against the interpretation that this is a repetition of Daniel 2. This vision is given after Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon had already risen.

This vision was given to Daniel toward the end of the Babylonian Empire. Belshazzar was the last king of Babylon.

This dream happended about 35 years after Daniels dream of the great statue.

Most interpreters do believe that the vision of Daniel 7 depicts the same empires as of Daniel 2. I don't. I say the beast in Daniel 7 are all end time empires.

Lion cannot be Babylon.
How can this be Babylon when Nebuchadnezzar had already gone mad and restored to the throne? The date this vision occured is the 1st year of Belshazzar who was the last king of Babylon. Daniel sees this beast (lion) rising out of the sea. Babylon had already risen and was toward the end of it's reign. Daniel's prophecy of the lion can't be about Babylon because it was already in existence.

The Hebrew word for "before" in this text is ‘qodam’ which means "in front of, in the presence of, not "historically before" as is commonly interpreted. This means the first three empires will be in the presence of (or stand before) the antichrist kingdom when it emerges.

 

[Tsigano]

Daniel 5:31
"And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old."

Isaiah 13:17
"Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, ie.(Babylon)

The bible doesn't say it was Cyrus the Persian who took Babylon but Darius the Mede.

You also disregard the fact that the second empire is said to be 'inferior' to Babylon.

The Persian and the Medes were both Indo-European people from central Asia (N / NE of Iran). They invaded as one people. In the beginning the Medes were the stronger but the Persians became the prominent ones - hence history recall it as the Persian Empire and not Mede Empire.

That is why the Ram has two horns in Daniels prophecy. The Goat had one horn (Alexander the Great) which became four (he took the empire at such as fast rate but died from doing so and it was divided amongst his four general). Rome was nothing but grew out the edge of one of these divided sections but became the mightiest. Rome had seven kings. It was then a republic then had three kings before becoming an Empire and had its first Emperor (the little horn which became much mightier than the previous). It was during this Emperor (little horn) that Christ Jesus was born.

This was written before Christ came and like most things in the Old Testament were written as reference to Christ coming. That was a verse the Jews should have known when Christ came. God spelled it out to them but many like most people today had their hearts hardened and their minds and priorities were else where.

As for inferior. Man's definition of inferior may not be the same as God's. That is why we must search for God's will in the message and not man's. Like Solomon was listed as the greatest and wisest ruler but in doing so broke many of God's commandments as given to Moses and was the start of the fall of Israel to captivity (bondage). notice Solomon is not listed amongst the great men of God in later verses. He was even building temples for the gods of his many foreign wives before he died.

The spirit of Babylon is mentioned in Revelations. This city has a whore / prostitute sitting from it. When the Bible speaks of a whore / prostitute it is reference to God's people being corrupted by the world (prior to Jesus it was the Jews. Now it is the Church as Jesus fulfilled the law and now Jews and Gentile stand as one in the church). Islam is not God's Church.

 

[revturmoil]

The Persian and the Medes were both Indo-European people from central Asia (N / NE of Iran). They invaded as one people. In the beginning the Medes were the stronger but the Persians became the prominent ones - hence history recall it as the Persian Empire and not Mede Empire.

The Medes and Persians did migrate to the area together. But they didn't invade as one people. The Medes were superior warriors compared to the Persians. But the Persians were better engineeres and nation builders. Darius and Cyrus were related by marriage. Cyrus married Darius' sister. (Thier father was astyges) The custom of that day was that the elder go into battle first. And that's why Darius is quoted in the bible as the one who conquered Babylon. There wasn't much of a conflict when the Persians took power and the Medes did need the Persians to further their kinhdom as they were superior engineeres. There wasn't much of a battle between the Medes and Persians. Only about a hundred people died and it was more of a family coup than anything else. The Median empire was the only empire that can be considered 'inferior' to Babylon as it was both smallr and shortlived. The word inferior is the word for earth. Obtaining earth is one of the major reasons for war and I believe the bible when it says that Darius took Babylon.

That is why the Ram has two horns in Daniels prophecy. The Goat had one horn (Alexander the Great) which became four (he took the empire at such as fast rate but died from doing so and it was divided amongst his four general). Rome was nothing but grew out the edge of one of these divided sections but became the mightiest. Rome had seven kings. It was then a republic then had three kings before becoming an Empire and had its first Emperor (the little horn which became much mightier than the previous). It was during this Emperor (little horn) that Christ Jesus was born.

The ram of Daniel 8 actually describes the inferior kingdom as the smaller horn that came up first and the Persians as the taller horn that came up after. The little horn came out of the root of Antiochus which was a spliter of the Grecian Empire. And the king of fierce countenance is also said to come from the Grecian Empire...NOT ROME!

As for inferior. Man's definition of inferior may not be the same as God's. That is why we must search for God's will in the message and not man's. Like Solomon was listed as the greatest and wisest ruler but in doing so broke many of God's commandments as given to Moses and was the start of the fall of Israel to captivity (bondage). notice Solomon is not listed amongst the great men of God in later verses. He was even building temples for the gods of his many foreign wives before he died.

The definition of inferior that I'm giving you isn't mans definition. It is the word 'ara' and means 'land' and the only place in the bible where it is translated as land. Inferior always means lower or below. Put the two together and there's no way the Persian Empire can be "the inferior kingdom!"

The spirit of Babylon is mentioned in Revelations. This city has a whore / prostitute sitting from it. When the Bible speaks of a whore / prostitute it is reference to God's people being corrupted by the world (prior to Jesus it was the Jews. Now it is the Church as Jesus fulfilled the law and now Jews and Gentile stand as one in the church). Islam is not God's Church.

Sorry but I consider it blasphemy to call the church a harlot/protitute. Especially when there's no scriptural evidence to support it. I know that's what you've been taught but I find it repulsive that Christians actually slander God's people and His church and attribute the harlot that 'occupies' the ten horned beast as the 'apostate church.' Why would anyone want to become a Christian when they demonize themselves? The harlot is symbolic of Islam and the jihadist that commit the abominations of the earth.

Not one person on this forum understands what apostasy truly is. Not one person on this forum understands Daniel 2.

And that's because you all have accepted the teachings of the experts and are very reluctant to change your minds because then you would have to admit you've been wrong.

And that's the way the devil wants it!

I use to believe what you believe. But I repented of my thinking after doing my own homework and reconsidering the words in the text.

 

[Tsigano]

The ram of Daniel 8 actually describes the inferior kingdom as the smaller horn that came up first and the Persians as the taller horn that came up after. The little horn came out of the root of Antiochus which was a spliter of the Grecian Empire. And the king of fierce countenance is also said to come from the Grecian Empire...NOT ROME!

Greece did not oppose the Prince of Princes or destroy God's temple and scatter the Jews into the many nations. It's empire was gone by the time Christ was born. Like the rest of the known world it was just a part of Rome's Empire.

Sorry but I consider it blasphemy to call the church a harlot/protitute. Especially when there's no scriptural evidence to support it. I know that's what you've been taught but I find it repulsive that Christians actually slander God's people and His church and attribute the harlot that 'occupies' the ten horned beast as the 'apostate church.' Why would anyone want to become a Christian when they demonize themselves? The harlot is symbolic of Islam and the jihadist that commit the abominations of the earth.

Blaspemy is not against man but against God. As for what I mean I am not referring to the true church of Jesus. Just certain branches of the church that claims to be. Those that aren't lead by the Holy Spirit but are taken by the spirit of the air. Those that pollute themselves with the ways of the world yet claim to be of Christ.
Its hardly blasphemy . God refers to His people like a wife. We are the bride of Christ. God calls His people that are unfaithful a prostitute in the Old Testament? That is the point I am saying.
Those that are of the Holy Spirit aren't prostituting themselves with the world. They aren't an unfaithful bride.
The ten horned beast is not the catholic church but is the Roman Empire. The whore / prostitute is the false church which comes from Rome (the ten horned beast).

Notice the ten horned beast goes away for a while but returns. We are yet to see its true return. And as to what this return will be is also something we should consider.


Islam does not have 10 kings but has 12 princes. Islam is the second beast. The beast of the land with two horns.

Satan is the master of counterfeit. Israel had 12 sons and so does Ishmael.
Israel comes from Abraham and so does Ishmael. Muhammad is like the counterfeit who brings about the law. He tries to say all the previous Holy prophets such as Moses were Muslims. Notice he does acknowledge John the Baptist yet Jesus said he was the greatest prophet.

The first beast which is from the sea is Rome. It is the beast of the gentiles - God Church. Roman Catholicism puts a man at the head of its church. God puts Jesus at the head of His church. Jesus left the Holy Spirit to guide the Church. Rome put the Pope at the head of their Church.

Islam is the second beast. The beast of the land. The second beast has two sects (Sunni & Shiite). It poses to be of peace but is a body based on war and hatred to those that are not of it. The second beast will behead the saints in what they think will be for God.

Look up Islam and how they believe an end time prophet (Mahdi) and an end time Jesus will bring about one world order. Look how they believe the remaining Christians who do not come under this order will be the enemy. Satan counterfeits both the Jews and the Church of Christ.


This is not the one who I accept as the head of the Church and the ear and spokesman of God.

 

[revturmoil]

Greece did not oppose the Prince of Princes or destroy God's temple and scatter the Jews into the many nations. It's empire was gone by the time Christ was born. Like the rest of the known world it was just a part of Rome's Empire.

The reformers were convinced. Rome crucified Christ, persecuted Christian's and Jew's, destroyed Jerusalem and Herod's temple, and then persecuted people for defecting from the faith. They were a tortuous people, so to the Protestant's it was a given. Rome (RRE) would in the latter days become the beast(s) of Revelation 13 and 17.

Is that what the scriptures support?

It seems that Rome's horrible past influenced interpreter's to automatically label Rome as the beast of the latter days.　

Blaspemy is not against man but against God....Its hardly blasphemy.

The ten horned beast is not the catholic church but is the Roman Empire. The whore / prostitute is the false church which comes from Rome (the ten horned beast).

You believe that but there's not one verse in the entire bible to support this. Every nation mentioned in prophecy has an Arab/Islamic connection. Not Europe. Not Italy.

It's not blasphemy to call God's organization a "false church" an apostate church and a harlot?
988. blasphemia blas-fay-me'-ah from 989; vilification (especially against God):--blasphemy, evil speaking, railing.

There's not one reason to assume the harlot is the false or "apostate church" like John Hagee and company would say. Babylon is Babylon. The only other thing it can symbolized is false religion and is sometimes used in that way. Catholicism has some heresy but that's not false religion. We believe in the same God and Jesus Christ. Islam is the complete counterfeit of Christianity. The harlot symbolizes Islam and her little jihadist harlots. The harlot 'sits upon' which means 'occupies' the ten nation 'Islamic' empire of the beast. This harlot symbolizes Islam as the false religion that dominates the ten nation area of the coming Arab/Islamic Empire.

And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

6 　And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

I wouldn't hesitate for a second to claim that Revelation 17:5 should read as follows...

ISLAM, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF JIHADIST AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH

These abominations are fueled by world domination through demographics, violence, and terrorism. The RRC is in decline and has been for about 600 years. Islam has always been Israel and Christianity's bitter enemy and this isn't the first time they attempt to dominate the world!

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

The only way any theory of prophecy can be correct is if it's not contradicted by any others verses used to support that same prophecy. The revived Roman Empire of Daniel 2 is an example of an interpretation gone bad through contradiction. It contradicts the correct meaning of the words inferior (land) and mixed (arab) in Daniel 2. Contradicts the divided, uncleaved, intermarried seed of the Arabic peoples and their tribes and clans symbolized in the iron and clay of Daniel 2. Contradicts Daniel quoting Grecia being to origin of the king of fierce coutenance and "the mighty king." And there's not one verse of bible prophecy that mentiones Rome in eschatology.

It also contradicts the form of worship ascribed to the beast in Revelation which is to bow down or lay prostrate. Contradicts the method of martyrdom (beheading) used by the beast. And contradicts what constitutes the filling of the harlot's cup.

Revelation 6:5 describes some of the methods and conditions brought forth by the Islamic Four Horsemen. The RCC no longer persecutes people.

Revelation 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Benjamin Newton in his book "Aids to the Study of Prophetic Inquiry" written in 1859, predicted that the "true antichrist of the New Testament should arise from the same Babylon" that Nebuchadnezzar and Antiochus Epiphanes rose from.

This is Islam...

It's not Catholic's whose faces "sup up to the east wind"...it's Muslim's!

Habakkuk 1:
5 ¶Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.
6 For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.
7 They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves.
8 Their horses also are swifter than the leopards, and are more fierce than the evening wolves: and their horsemen shall spread themselves, and their horsemen shall come from far; they shall fly as the eagle that hasteth to eat.
9 They shall come all for violence: their faces shall sup up as the east wind, and they shall gather the captivity as the sand.
10 And they shall scoff at the kings, and the princes shall be a scorn unto them: they shall deride every strong hold; for they shall heap dust, and take it.
11 Then shall his mind change, and he shall pass over, and offend, imputing this his power unto his god.

Islam is the direct opposite of Christianity, rejects all of the prophets and apostles, and deny's the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. They are the ones bent on world domination and they will bring tribulation to the world and try and take out Israel.

It's no wonder one surah reads,

Surah 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

This describes Muslim's better than anyone else.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Jesus said, that BECAUSE iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Iniquity is the condition of without law or comtempt of the law.

The most lawless area of the world is also dominated by the most most lawless religion and that is the Arab Middle-East. Just before the morning of September 11 2001, I had just given an old farmer friend his first color television. He was able to get two channels. When I walked into his kitchen the north tower had been struck and was burning. About 15 minutes later, I saw the second plane hit the South tower and out of the first billows of smoke that exumed from the other side, I saw the face of smilling Satan that looked very similar to bin laden.
Thousands of people saw the same face. The face was on the internet for a few years after 911 but has since been difficult to find for some reason. Little did we know that our mailman's maid of honor was on the plane that hit the second tower. It wasn't Catholic's or anyone proffessing Cristianity that did this. It was the offspring of the harlot of Revelation 17... the jihadist.
To make a few final comments.

Rome is not in holy war with Israel or mankind. The blood of the martyr's is not being spilled by Catholic's or Italian's today but by Muslim's. The Pope kissing the koran isn't filling the harlot's cup because that has nothing to do with worldwide tribulation or any bible prophecy..

Jesus also gave us a clue why Papal Rome can't be the harlot.
John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Muslim's who kill people i.e. the harlot's jihadist, believe they are in the "martyrs for virgins program" and think they are doing "Allah's will!"

That cannot be said about the RCC.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

http://www.be-ready.org/index.html

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/



　

 

[avoice]

kaoticprofit

I havent read what your evidence is so I cant speak to it
but I most certainly agree with your conclusions
All those looking to Rome will be left looking in the wrong direction and who ever says arabs or Islam is not pointed out simply is blind a simple look at who is against Christians and Jews will sufice, but look at the countries aligned with the beast they are all Muslim.... Futher study of Ismael will result in further proof ..

The city of Mecca

Mecca is a city in the South West part of the present Saudi Arabia, not far away from the Red sea. Centuries before the rise of Islam, Mecca was serving as the main religious, cultural and commercial center for all of the Arabic tribes. An amazing detail about the city is that it is surrounded by seven hills.

Mecca is also the city which gave birth to Muhammad (a type of antichrist ) and to his religion of Islam.
Mecca became the capital of the Islamic empire and the official residency of Allah.

Therefore, and since then, Mecca gained the title of being called "almadina almukarrama" (the bountiful/honored city). Muslims' prayers are required to be directed toward the city and its shrine of "Ka'ba." It is also their duty and one of their five pillars of faith to visit the city at least once in their lifetime. Non-Muslims are strictly forbidden to touch the (holy) soil of Mecca. If someone is caught, he will definitely be put to death.

 

[Tsigano]

kaoticprofit

I havent read what your evidence is so I cant speak to it
but I most certainly agree with your conclusions
All those looking to Rome will be left looking in the wrong direction and who ever says arabs or Islam is not pointed out simply is blind a simple look at who is against Christians and Jews will sufice, but look at the countries aligned with the beast they are all Muslim.... Futher study of Ismael will result in further proof ..

The city of Mecca

Mecca is a city in the South West part of the present Saudi Arabia, not far away from the Red sea. Centuries before the rise of Islam, Mecca was serving as the main religious, cultural and commercial center for all of the Arabic tribes. An amazing detail about the city is that it is surrounded by seven hills.

Mecca is also the city which gave birth to Muhammad (a type of antichrist ) and to his religion of Islam.
Mecca became the capital of the Islamic empire and the official residency of Allah.

Therefore, and since then, Mecca gained the title of being called "almadina almukarrama" (the bountiful/honored city). Muslims' prayers are required to be directed toward the city and its shrine of "Ka'ba." It is also their duty and one of their five pillars of faith to visit the city at least once in their lifetime. Non-Muslims are strictly forbidden to touch the (holy) soil of Mecca. If someone is caught, he will definitely be put to death.

I agree that through all kaoticprofit mass wording I cannot actually see any supporting evidence. I do try to keep wording to a minimum with just supporting facts.
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[font="tahoma][size="2"]I believe that Islam is the second beast which is the beast of the land. The beast with two horns which looks like a lamb but speaks like a dragon. That to me is plain to see, but not the first beast. That started much earlier and is yet to return.[/size][/font]
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[font="tahoma][color="#5d5d5d"]I believe that the first beast (the beast of the sea) is Rome. This is not Catholicism. I believe the whore of Babylon is the Catholicism. [/color][/font]
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[font="tahoma][color="#5d5d5d"]This does not mean that I believe that all Catholics are of the devil nor do I think that Catholics can't be Christians. [/color][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]That is why I believe the verse says for Christians "To come out from her".[/size][/font]
My problem with Rome is the Pope and the fact they teach doctrines that take us away from the original Church. There was no Pope in the trinity. Nor was there the symbolism or wealth seen through Catholicism. I feel Catholicism blasphemes Christ.
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[font="tahoma][color="#5d5d5d"]If Islam is the beast with ten horns then please support. Islam was from Ishmael who had 12 princes (like the 12 tribes of Judah). It was then from one man and became two divisions.[/color][/font]
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[font="tahoma][color="#5d5d5d"]Rome however did have seven kings. One after the other. It was then a republic so had no kings. This came to an end by a joint rule of three kings ( a period of ten years). The three king rule then ended with conflict with Octavian becoming Augustus and being the first Emperor. Augustus was cunning as he gave all running of Rome back to the senate though in doing so became the most powerful man the Earth has known. It was during his time that Christ came.[/color][/font]
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[font="tahoma][color="#5d5d5d"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgbbPYE-Ics[/color][/font]
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[font="tahoma][color="#5d5d5d"]Is not all the Bible and the whole Earth designed and is built around the Son of God? Was not most verses in the old Testament a reference to the coming of Christ? [/font][/color][font="tahoma][color="#5d5d5d"]
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[font="arial][size="2"]In the early church there became a division. The Churches of Asia accused the churches of Rome and Alexandra as watering down their doctrines and mixing Christianity with the ways of the world. It was this watered down doctrine that the Roman Emperor [/size][/font][font="tahoma][color="#5d5d5d"]Constantine adopted. Not the Churches of Asia. It was the Seven Churches of Asia that Jesus gave His word to through John in Revelations. [/color][/font]
[font="tahoma][color="#5d5d5d"]The final Emperor of the Roman world submitted to Islam and officially handed his power over - To the second Beast.[/color][/font]

 

[veteran]

Before anyone can go looking for the 'beast' in our times, they must FIRST understand the Scripture. It's a whole lot easier if the simplicity of God's Word is followed.

Rev 13:1-18
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

First requirement is to allow God's Word to interpret His Word for us, not multitudes of ideas from the world.

Both those 2 verses go together, giving a description of this first beast. Don't separate them, they belong together. As in many places in God's Word, more is often revealed further in the flow. So it is with this 2nd verse pointing to the 1st verse. This first beast rises out of the "sea". It has 10 horns, 10 crowns, and 7 heads. The leopard, bear, and lion symbols are pointers to Daniel 7, which is about what? Beast KINGDOMS of the past. So right there, our Lord Jesus is showing us this first beast rising out the waters of the sea is about a beast kingdom with ten kings (crowns) and seven heads. He defined this first beast for us in Rev.17, which MUST go along with this:

Rev 17:12
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
(KJV)

Rev 17:15
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
(KJV)

Rev 17:9
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
(KJV)

The ten horns are ten kings, the seven heads are seven mountains (areas on earth), and the waters of the "sea" represent peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Put all three of those markers together, and we know: 1) that beast is not just one nation, not just one peoples or multitudes nor tongues; 2) it covers seven mountains upon the earth, meaning areas of the earth, not just one place on earth; 3) ten kings are over it all, and ONLY COME TO REIGN WITH THE BEAST. What beast? Rev.17:12 is NOT referring to this same first beast, for there is ANOTHER beast given AFTER this first one, starting at Rev.13:11, which is about an entity, an individual.

Know what that means about this first beast then? It does NOT fit Rome today, nor any supposed antichrist today on earth, nor any past kingdom on earth, nor any group of ten kings of past history. It can ONLY apply when the second beast shows up on earth, which is when those ten kings will begin to rule "one hour" with the second beast. And past Rev.13:10 is very, very specific just what the second beast is going to do on this earth, wonders that NO man on earth has ever done before, even to our day so far. Notice also Rev.13:1 even gave us this clue about the second beast individual, with "the dragon gave him his power, his seat, and great authority."

Were we supposed to just forget what Christ showed John and us in the previous Rev.12 chapter about the "dragon"? After all, Rev.12:9 TOLD us who that "dragon" is. It's another title for Satan, the Devil himself. We were even shown about that dragon when he first drew a third of the stars (angels) into rebellion with him, with a beast kingdom then that had 10 horns, 7 heads, but only 7 crowns. Were we supposed to just forget that old beast kingdom too? Are we to have short memories when doing Bible study, and not recall what had been covered in God's Word before this point?


Rev.13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

That's about the first beast that has 7 heads (mountains). Only ONE of the 7 heads suffers a deadly wound that is healed, and all the world will wonder after... which beast? That FIRST beast kingdom of Rev.13:1-2. One of the beast kingdom's seven mountains is going to suffer a wound. If that was about Rome, wouldn't that have to be upon all seven heads, since some apply those seven heads to seven hills to represent Rome? It's not Rome. It's about one specific 'head' upon the earth, one continental location upon the earth, for there are seven main continents on this earth today.

Who is it per the Daniel prophecy that is to come to Jerusalem and make a "league", and become strong with a small people, and come to power there using peace and flattery? It is a king, a particular king that will place the abomination idol to start up false worship. That's what the latter part of this Rev.13 chapter is about.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

Who gave that first beast kingdom its power and authority? The "dragon" does. Who is that "dragon" again? Satan, the Devil. What does that "who can make war with him" point to? What kind of time on earth? It's about a time of PEACE, no more war; wars had stopped, because none can make war with that beast. That beast is going to control everything, all military power on earth. If no one can fight against it, then that means a time of world peace, no longer the wars and rumours of wars timing. Anybody see that today? What about in past history? It is not here yet. It is trying... to manifest today, ever since the United Nations organization began, but it has not yet been fulfilled.

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Remember Daniel 11 about the "vile person" that comes to power, and makes a "league" in Jerusalem? That's also who this is written there that will blaspheme God, and exalt himself above all that is called God, and will promote a "strange god", the god of forces. We were also told in the Book of Daniel that he will be given power over the holy people for a period of 3.5 years. This 42 months is that SAME time period, it equals 3.5 years, or 1260 days. We were just told about the symbolic waters that come out of the dragon's mouth towards the woman back in the previous Rev.12 chapter. A 1260 days period was associated with it too, or did you forget? This dragon is given power over just one area on earth? No, but over ALL kindreds, and tongues, and nations. That means the WHOLE EARTH, not just one little part of it.


8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Whoah! Those not written in the Book of Life of The Lamb (Jesus Christ) from the foundation of the world are going to worship that beast, the dragon. That means many... are going to be deceived to that dragon. Again, who's that dragon per Rev.12:9? The Devil himself.


9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

For those with ears to hear, our Lord is saying to listen up. That ain't for everybody, sorry. It's a Message for His elect.


11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Now John is shown "another beast". Just how many beasts are there in this Rev.13 chapter? Only Two. The first one is only about a beast kingdom, a world system over ALL nations upon the earth. Sorry, that means our good ole' U.S.A. too. We ain't gonna' be left out of this. This second beast has two horns LIKE a lamb, so what's that about? Who is The Lamb Slain? Our Lord Jesus Christ. But we're also told this 2nd beast will speak as a dragon, the dragon. And who is the dragon per God's Word? Satan, the Devil. THAT's the "another Jesus" Apostle Paul was talking about in 2 Cor.11. Afterall, didn't Paul say there that Satan transforms (disguises per the Greek) as an angel of light? But this Lamb role is about our Lord Jesus, so how's that? It's about Satan playing the lead role in the last showing of Jesus Christ Superstar!

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

That dragon is going to make use of all the power of the 1st beast on earth, and will even cause all on earth (except those in Christ Jesus) to worship the first beast that had a deadly wound. In other words, this dragon is coming to heal it. If he's gonna' play Christ, then WHERE do you think that dragon would show up at? That's right, Jerusalem, on earth, the place where God Himself has chosen to dwell for ever. That dragon wants that spot on earth, and he wants it badly.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

This ain't about some supposed army helicopters and jets firing off missles. That's garbage is pushed just to get you off track of who this is really about per God's Word. That same "another beast", a 2nd beast, the dragon, Satan himself, is going to rain lightning down from the sky to the earth to fool the world into thinking he is God. Boy, it's gonna' to be a sight to see for some. They'll love it, and that dragon for putting on such a show of power, like comic book city, man. Ooooh... Ah.... WOW, Cool...., they'll think!


14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

There's what that false working on earth by that dragon will do. It will DECEIVE all that bow to him. But that show of miracles won't be enough. He will place the abomination of desolation idol in its place, for all the world to bow down in worship to. Afterall, if you liked the miracle show so much, you wouldn't mind a little donation in bowing down to that idol in false worship would you? Circus shows got be funded too ya know.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Didn't the king of Babylon Nebuchadnezzar try to do that same thing when his buddy false prophets looked for a way to trap God's people during Daniel's days? Yeah, old Neb had a golden idol make of himself, made a decree that all were to bow down to it at the sound the call to worship by musical instruments, and those who refused were to be killed. Old Neb cared a lot for Daniel, and hoped that Daniel's God would protect him, and God did. But this dragon won't care about God's people like Neb did with Daniel.


16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
(KJV)

If bowing down to that idol image of the beast isn't enough, he going to also institute a mark system for buying and selling, making sure he gets every body involved in the game. Our game will not be spin the bottle, our game will be with the Sword of The Holy Spirit, a Sword he cannot defeat. Don't go crazy with numerology in trying to discover the name of that second beast, for that's only a pointer all the way back to Genesis about his identity. The 666 number is when he comes, which is how his identity is revealed. But hey, didn't our Lord Jesus already reveal to John who this "another beast" is? Once again, who is the "dragon" per God's Word? Oh yeah, it's Satan, the Devil himself, that old serpent, the angel of the bottomless pit, Apollyon, Abaddon, the red dragon, etc.

 

[Tsigano]

[font="Verdana][i]Rev 17: I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.[/i][/font][/size][font="Verdana][i] [sup]8[/sup][size="3"] “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And [sup](AC)[/sup]those who dwell on the earth, [sup](AD)[/sup]whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will [sup](AF)[/sup]wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come. [/i][/font]

[font="Verdana] [/font]

[size="4"][font="'Palatino Linotype"]The beast comes into existence for a time but then it disappeared for a time and is going to come back before going to the end.


This beast is going to disappear and then come back.


I think it is very clear it is Rome by the prophecies given by Daniel. He lists the empires ruling the Holy land from his life time. We know that the empires are Babylon, Persia, Greece and then it isn't going to miss Rome and jump to the end times.


I think the Church for many years have known it is Rome. The message the Church is getting now is about Islam. People like David Pawson even went through a stroke to get his message about Islam to the Church. This is the second beast.


The beast with two horns.[/font]
[/size]

 

[Tsigano]

I think the Church for many years have known the beast with ten kings and seven hills is Rome.


Rome became the biggest empire the world has seen to this day. For example it ruled Britain for a time period that is inequivalent from Shakespeare until now.


The first Emperor of Rome came and then Christ was born (as fitting with scriptures). It was under Roman rule that the destruction of the Jewish temple was destroyed (as fitting with scripture) and the Jews were chased out of Israel (as fitting with scripture).
It has now disappeared (as fitting with scripture). I believe it will somehow come back in some form or another.

It is of no coincidence that Islam who I believe is the second beast (looks like a lamb with two horns) are waiting for an end time prophet (as fitting with the false prophet of Revelations) and an end times Jesus (the false Messiah - the anti-Christ as fitting with Revelations) who will unite and bring world order. half of Christians will fall under Islam and the rest will be the enemy of God (Satan).

 

[avoice]

I think the Church for many years have known the beast with ten kings and seven hills is Rome.


Rome became the biggest empire the world has seen to this day. For example it ruled Britain for a time period that is inequivalent from Shakespeare until now.


The first Emperor of Rome came and then Christ was born (as fitting with scriptures). It was under Roman rule that the destruction of the Jewish temple was destroyed (as fitting with scripture) and the Jews were chased out of Israel (as fitting with scripture).
It has now disappeared (as fitting with scripture). I believe it will somehow come back in some form or another.

It is of no coincidence that Islam who I believe is the second beast (looks like a lamb with two horns) are waiting for an end time prophet (as fitting with the false prophet of Revelations) and an end times Jesus (the false Messiah - the anti-Christ as fitting with Revelations) who will unite and bring world order. half of Christians will fall under Islam and the rest will be the enemy of God (Satan).

Its not Rome because the book was shut up by Dan. the reformers could only see Catholics in Rome in this role so thats what they believed add that Rome was built on seven hills it all seemed to fit to them ..but they were wrong


Revelation 13

The First Beast
[sup]1[/sup]And I saw a beast rising out of the sea,[sup](A)[/sup] with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.

The sea here is a sea of people/nations a diadems is a greek word often translated crown as it can be used as one but that not exactly what it is means
1) a diadem

a) a blue band marked with white which Persian kings used to bind on the turban or tiara

The first beast rises out of people or nations it has ten powers and 7 leaders all the powers are wearing diadems(turbans of persian kings/Iran) and blasphemous names on their head.

This is not Rome

 

[veteran]

I think it is very clear it is Rome by the prophecies given by Daniel. He lists the empires ruling the Holy land from his life time. We know that the empires are Babylon, Persia, Greece and then it isn't going to miss Rome and jump to the end times.

I think the Church for many years have known it is Rome. The message the Church is getting now is about Islam. People like David Pawson even went through a stroke to get his message about Islam to the Church. This is the second beast.

The beast with two horns.

If the ten kings of Rev.17 don't come to power until the "one hour" with the beast king of that same chapter, then how can that be about Rome?

Rev 17:10-13
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
(KJV)

You're missing the idea of a king as one of the two 'beasts'.

The 2nd beast of Rev.13:11 forward is about an individual, not Rome. The pattern if from the king of Babylon in Daniel's days. It's the first beast of Rev.13:1-2 that is about a kingdom structure.

Islam has a big part in the final battle of the end of this world. Even Islamic nations are named in Ezekiel 38 that ally with Russia to come upon Israel on the last day.

 

[revturmoil]

kaoticprofit

I havent read what your evidence is so I cant speak to it
but I most certainly agree with your conclusions
All those looking to Rome will be left looking in the wrong direction and who ever says arabs or Islam is not pointed out simply is blind a simple look at who is against Christians and Jews will sufice, but look at the countries aligned with the beast they are all Muslim.... Futher study of Ismael will result in further proof ..

The city of Mecca

Mecca is a city in the South West part of the present Saudi Arabia, not far away from the Red sea. Centuries before the rise of Islam, Mecca was serving as the main religious, cultural and commercial center for all of the Arabic tribes. An amazing detail about the city is that it is surrounded by seven hills.

Mecca is also the city which gave birth to Muhammad (a type of antichrist ) and to his religion of Islam.
Mecca became the capital of the Islamic empire and the official residency of Allah.

Therefore, and since then, Mecca gained the title of being called "almadina almukarrama" (the bountiful/honored city). Muslims' prayers are required to be directed toward the city and its shrine of "Ka'ba." It is also their duty and one of their five pillars of faith to visit the city at least once in their lifetime. Non-Muslims are strictly forbidden to touch the (holy) soil of Mecca. If someone is caught, he will definitely be put to death.

The word is 'oros' which is translated mountains. Rome isn't surrounded by 7 mountains and neither is Mecca. Only Jerusalem is surrounded by 7 mountains. In Rome there are 7 hills east of the Tiber river but 'Vatican hill' is on the west side of the Tiber...that makes 8! But again the word is oros and that means mountains and only Jerusalem is surrounded by 7 of them.

 

[revturmoil]

I agree that through all [font="tahoma][size="2"]kaoticprofit mass wording I cannot actually see any supporting evidence. I do try to keep wording to a minimum with just supporting facts.[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]
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[font="tahoma][size="2"]I believe that Islam is the second beast which is the beast of the land. The beast with two horns which looks like a lamb but speaks like a dragon. That to me is plain to see, but not the first beast. That started much earlier and is yet to return.[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]
[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][color="#5d5d5d"]I believe that the first beast (the beast of the sea) is Rome. This is not Catholicism. I believe the whore of Babylon is the Catholicism. [/color][/font]
[font="tahoma][color="#5d5d5d"]
[/color][/font]
[font="tahoma][color="#5d5d5d"]This does not mean that I believe that all Catholics are of the devil nor do I think that Catholics can't be Christians. [/color][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]That is why I believe the verse says for Christians "To come out from her".[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]My problem with Rome is the Pope and the fact they teach doctrines that take us away from the original Church. There was no Pope in the trinity. Nor was there the symbolism or wealth seen through Catholicism. I feel Catholicism blasphemes Christ. [/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][color="#5d5d5d"]
[/color][/font]
[font="tahoma][color="#5d5d5d"]If Islam is the beast with ten horns then please support. Islam was from Ishmael who had 12 princes (like the 12 tribes of Judah). It was then from one man and became two divisions.[/color][/font]
[font="tahoma][color="#5d5d5d"]
[/color][/font]
[font="tahoma][color="#5d5d5d"]Rome however did have seven kings. One after the other. It was then a republic so had no kings. This came to an end by a joint rule of three kings ( a period of ten years). The three king rule then ended with conflict with Octavian becoming Augustus and being the first Emperor. Augustus was cunning as he gave all running of Rome back to the senate though in doing so became the most powerful man the Earth has known. It was during his time that Christ came.[/color][/font]
[font="tahoma][color="#5d5d5d"]
[/color][/font]
[font="tahoma][color="#5d5d5d"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=EgbbPYE-Ics[/color][/font]
[font="tahoma][color="#5d5d5d"]
[/color][/font]
[font="arial][size="3"][font="tahoma][color="#5d5d5d"]Is not all the Bible and the whole Earth designed and is built around the Son of God? Was not most verses in the old Testament a reference to the coming of Christ? [/font][/size][/font][/color][font="arial][size="3"][font="tahoma][color="#5d5d5d"]
[/font][/size][/font][/color]
[font="arial][size="2"][font="tahoma]In the early church there became a division. The Churches of Asia accused the churches of Rome and Alexandra as watering down their doctrines and mixing Christianity with the ways of the world. It was this watered down doctrine that the Roman Emperor [/font][/color][/color][/size][/font][size="2"][font="tahoma][color="#5d5d5d"]Constantine adopted. Not the Churches of Asia. It was the Seven Churches of Asia that Jesus gave His word to through John in Revelations. [/font][/size]
[font="tahoma][color="#5d5d5d"]The final Emperor of the Roman world submitted to Islam and officially handed his power over - To the second Beast.[/font]

If you believe that the two horned beast is Islam. I agree. The two horns symbolize the Sunni and Shia sects of Islam. The ten horned beast is 'occupied' (sits upon) by "Babylon the Great." Babylon can only mean literal Babylon or "false religion" meaning a large (great) false religion. What the beast and harlot symbolizes is that Islam is the religion that 'occupies' the coming ten nation empire. The beast will inspire the jihadit to commit the abominations of the earth either from the Al'Aqsa mosque or the Dome of the Rock (or a wing of it) turning East Jerusalem into a harlot.
You can post all the anti-Catholic/Rome rhetoric and junk you want but it's meaningless. Show me one verse that proves Rome will have something to do with the last days? You can't because there are none! That doesn't seem to matter to any of you diehard revived Roman Empirist!

 

[Tsigano]

If you believe that the two horned beast is Islam. I agree. The two horns symbolize the Sunni and Shia sects of Islam. The ten horned beast is 'occupied' (sits upon) by "Babylon the Great." Babylon can only mean literal Babylon or "false religion" meaning a large (great) false religion. What the beast and harlot symbolizes is that Islam is the religion that 'occupies' the coming ten nation empire. The beast will inspire the jihadit to commit the abominations of the earth either from the Al'Aqsa mosque or the Dome of the Rock (or a wing of it) turning East Jerusalem into a harlot.
You can post all the anti-Catholic/Rome rhetoric and junk you want but it's meaningless. Show me one verse that proves Rome will have something to do with the last days? You can't because there are none! That doesn't seem to matter to any of you diehard revived Roman Empirist!

I can post many facts about Rome or the Pope causing much misrepresentation of true Christians. Many points in history where various Pope has committed some very questionable actions. In fact I'd probably say that 90% of most non-Christian criticism comes from false forms of Christianity discrediting what true Christianity really is. The head of the Catholic church is the Pope and the Vatican. This is the people I have no allegiance with

I can post many verses where Jesus & John the Baptist spoke very harshly and took no allegiance with the pharisees. This doesn't mean they were against the people under the pharisees though as the people may know no better. The pharisees were men claiming to be representing God and seen daily worshiping and praying in buildings that were God's places and they sold God to the people.

If the two horned beast is Islam which I feel is very clear to see then how come the ten horned beast came first? The ten horned beast it says very clearly will go away and will return. Why is it so hard to accept Rome may be the center of a new European headed super power? We have already had the Frankish & German kings try and re-establish the Roman Empire (The Holy Roman Empire). This empire along with the Pope of the time was the one that was behind the crusades in the name of Jesus.

 

[revturmoil]

I can post many facts about Rome or the Pope causing much misrepresentation of true Christians. Many points in history where various Pope has committed some very questionable actions. In fact I'd probably say that 90% of most non-Christian criticism comes from false forms of Christianity discrediting what true Christianity really is. The head of the Catholic church is the Pope and the Vatican. This is the people I have no allegiance with

I can post many verses where Jesus & John the Baptist spoke very harshly and took no allegiance with the pharisees. This doesn't mean they were against the people under the pharisees though as the people may know no better. The pharisees were men claiming to be representing God and seen daily worshiping and praying in buildings that were God's places and they sold God to the people.

If the two horned beast is Islam which I feel is very clear to see then how come the ten horned beast came first? The ten horned beast it says very clearly will go away and will return. Why is it so hard to accept Rome may be the center of a new European headed super power? We have already had the Frankish & German kings try and re-establish the Roman Empire (The Holy Roman Empire). This empire along with the Pope of the time was the one that was behind the crusades in the name of Jesus.

You base your interpretations on what Rome or the RCC did in the distant past. But that has no bearing on the end time beast since it's not found in scripture.

Even though you or anyone else are unable to quote one verse of prophecy linking Italy with anything to do with the last day's...you still adhere to that false theory.

Does the Word of God have any merit to your interpretation? If it does then quote one verse of prophecy implication the RCC or Italy in the last days.
If you can't...You have latched onto a false doctrine and a pipe dream!

You can quote and post all the bad stuff Rome did centuries ago and all the other insignificant and unrelated junk you want. That doesn't prove a thing unless it's found in God's Word.

You're living in the past. What Rome did centuries ago is only relevant in the last days if there are verses to support it. You know that there isn't one verse to support the RRE yet you still adhere to the theory.

Every verse of end time prophecy implicates countries "other than European countries." Rome and Europe aren't found in one verse of end time prophecy. But that doesn't matter to you.

You would rather remain in denial like the others rather than admit you believe something that is 'non-existant' in God's Word!

 

[Tsigano]

You base your interpretations on what Rome or the RCC did in the distant past. But that has no bearing on the end time beast since it's not found in scripture.

Even though you or anyone else are unable to quote one verse of prophecy linking Italy with anything to do with the last day's...you still adhere to that false theory.

Does the Word of God have any merit to your interpretation? If it does then quote one verse of prophecy implication the RCC or Italy in the last days.
If you can't...You have latched onto a false doctrine and a pipe dream!

You can quote and post all the bad stuff Rome did centuries ago and all the other insignificant and unrelated junk you want. That doesn't prove a thing unless it's found in God's Word.

You're living in the past. What Rome did centuries ago is only relevant in the last days if there are verses to support it. You know that there isn't one verse to support the RRE yet you still adhere to the theory.

Every verse of end time prophecy implicates countries "other than European countries." Rome and Europe aren't found in one verse of end time prophecy. But that doesn't matter to you.

You would rather remain in denial like the others rather than admit you believe something that is 'non-existant' in God's Word!

Rome having a major impact on the world for a massive number of years not seen by any other Empire over such an major and important expanse of land is hardly what I'd call significant.

Rome being the empire that was in power of the Holy land at the exact time that God was born as a man is hardly what I call significant.

Rome being the empire who was responsible for destroying the temple in Israel and spreading the Jews around the world is hardly what I call significant.

Rome being the Empire that first oppressed the Church is hardly what I call significant.

Rome having ten rulers prior to it being an Empire is hardly significant and is something a bit more than just a coincidence. seven kings ruled prior it being a republic.The Republic official ended by a legal joint three ruler / king rule (Julius Caesar was dictator and wasn't a legal ruler of Rome). This three king rule came to a brutal end and Rome had its first Emperor. This was the official birth of the "Roman Empire". This very Emperor was alive at the time of the birth of Christ and was seen to mankind as the most powerful man alive. He was to be worshipped throughout the whole Roman Empire as a god.

It is the same coincidence that the Persian Empire was made up from both Medes & Persian (two horned Ram) and Greece was lead by a leader who did the thought impossible by taking an empire in such a speed yet in doing met an unexpected death and his kingdom was split between his four generals (goat with one horn that becomes four).

I do not think the beast is RCC. I think the beast is the "ROMAN EMPIRE". I think the whore is RCC. The whore is not the beast. It sits upon the beast.

With regards to scripture then apart from the prophecy then compare the ways & doctrines to scripture. The pope and its watering down of the gospel is my biggest problem with RCC. This is not the Catholic people. Just their head. The Holy Spirit is the one who speaks God's Word to the Church and not the Pope. The pope is not a person I see in the trinity. Nor is he someone I see in God's Church in accordance with the Bible. His character and position is far removed from that of the early church as seen in the book of Acts.

Lastly I do not think that the Roman Empire (not Italy) is of any significance today as the beast is said to go away and come back. We are at a time when the beast has gone away.

How the beast will return and with which countries within it (it is an empire and not a country - i.e. Italy) I do not have any idea. Whether it is a European / American union I do not want to guess. I just know it will be headed from Rome. I also think that it will have a rule of ten kings who are a different ten mentioned in Daniel & Rev 12. These ten kings will not have a country of their own. From this returned beast will come the false Messiah who will join with Islam (two horned beast looks like a lamb). Islam will be lead by a mighty prophet who will be a descendant of Muhammad. They will appear to bring about peace on Earth. Where or what nation the false messiah will be I also don't know. Whether he be an Arab or an Israeli or a gentile I can only make a guess at. The false Messiah will make a truce with Israel for 3 1/2 years and allow the temple to be rebuilt. Jews will fall for the beast but the truce will be broken and he will bring about the most deadly war against Israel which will happen for an additional 3 1/2 years before the real Jesus return upon the clouds.

 

[revturmoil]

Rome having a major impact on the world for a massive number of years not seen by any other Empire over such an major and important expanse of land is hardly what I'd call significant.

Rome being the empire that was in power of the Holy land at the exact time that God was born as a man is hardly what I call significant.

Rome being the empire who was responsible for destroying the temple in Israel and spreading the Jews around the world is hardly what I call significant.

Rome being the Empire that first oppressed the Church is hardly what I call significant.

I've already explained that that's why the reformers were convinced that Rome was the end time beast. They were convinced that Rome would also emerge as the end time beast but that idea is completely unfounded and baseless in scripture. Not to mention it is a theory completely contradictory to a host of scripture. But that doesn't matter to you.

It's insignificant because it's all in the past and has nothing to do with end-time prophecy which is why you can't quote a verse that implicates Rome in any end time prophecy!! If there was even one verse to support your theory then it would be a credible theory. But the truth is that Rome has been declining in power for the last 600 years and Rome no longer converts by the sword. And every verse that mentions nations involved in the last days exclude Rome! We aren't talking about what happened 2000 or 1400 years ago. We are talking about today and the recent past.

You have been fooled! Or maybe you're just fooling yourself!

Rome having ten rulers prior to it being an Empire is hardly significant and is something a bit more than just a coincidence. seven kings ruled prior it being a republic.The Republic official ended by a legal joint three ruler / king rule (Julius Caesar was dictator and wasn't a legal ruler of Rome). This three king rule came to a brutal end and Rome had its first Emperor. This was the official birth of the "Roman Empire". This very Emperor was alive at the time of the birth of Christ and was seen to mankind as the most powerful man alive. He was to be worshipped throughout the whole Roman Empire as a god.

It is the same coincidence that the Persian Empire was made up from both Medes & Persian (two horned Ram) and Greece was lead by a leader who did the thought impossible by taking an empire in such a speed yet in doing met an unexpected death and his kingdom was split between his four generals (goat with one horn that becomes four).

All of that is unscriptural rhetoric! Show me by quoting scripture that Rome, Italy or the EU has anything to do with the last days!!!. You can't because those scriptures do not exist!!!

I do not think the beast is RCC. I think the beast is the "ROMAN EMPIRE". I think the whore is RCC. The whore is not the beast. It sits upon the beast.

The word 'sits upon' means that the harlot OCCUPIES the beast. The RCC is a Christian Church whether you like it or not. Not one of God's churches are a harlot. Heresy doesn't constitue a harlot.

Muslim's who fly planes into sky scrapers and expect to get 70 virgins in paradise make up the whore whose abominations of the earth fill the harlot's cup.

A pope kissing a koran doesn't constitue a harlot.

Islam is the religion of the ten horned beast and the harlot is all of Islam's radical sects. It's not altar boys who are killing people in the name of their God. It's Muslim's!

With regards to scripture then apart from the prophecy then compare the ways & doctrines to scripture. The pope and its watering down of the gospel is my biggest problem with RCC. This is not the Catholic people. Just their head. The Holy Spirit is the one who speaks God's Word to the Church and not the Pope. The pope is not a person I see in the trinity. Nor is he someone I see in God's Church in accordance with the Bible. His character and position is far removed from that of the early church as seen in the book of Acts.

That has nothing to do with the religion of the beast or any of the events and conditions in the book of Revelation brought upon mankind by the followers of the beast. Heresy has nothing to do with the abominations of the earth.

Lastly I do not think that the Roman Empire (not Italy) is of any significance today as the beast is said to go away and come back. We are at a time when the beast has gone away.

How the beast will return and with which countries within it (it is an empire and not a country - i.e. Italy) I do not have any idea. Whether it is a European / American union I do not want to guess. I just know it will be headed from Rome.

You "know" that it will be headed by Rome but there's not one verse in the entire bible that supports that. How misled!

 

[aspen]

Rome having a major impact on the world for a massive number of years not seen by any other Empire over such an major and important expanse of land is hardly what I'd call significant.

Rome being the empire that was in power of the Holy land at the exact time that God was born as a man is hardly what I call significant.

Rome being the empire who was responsible for destroying the temple in Israel and spreading the Jews around the world is hardly what I call significant.

Rome being the Empire that first oppressed the Church is hardly what I call significant.

Rome having ten rulers prior to it being an Empire is hardly significant and is something a bit more than just a coincidence. seven kings ruled prior it being a republic.The Republic official ended by a legal joint three ruler / king rule (Julius Caesar was dictator and wasn't a legal ruler of Rome). This three king rule came to a brutal end and Rome had its first Emperor. This was the official birth of the "Roman Empire". This very Emperor was alive at the time of the birth of Christ and was seen to mankind as the most powerful man alive. He was to be worshipped throughout the whole Roman Empire as a god.

It is the same coincidence that the Persian Empire was made up from both Medes & Persian (two horned Ram) and Greece was lead by a leader who did the thought impossible by taking an empire in such a speed yet in doing met an unexpected death and his kingdom was split between his four generals (goat with one horn that becomes four).

I do not think the beast is RCC. I think the beast is the "ROMAN EMPIRE". I think the whore is RCC. The whore is not the beast. It sits upon the beast.

With regards to scripture then apart from the prophecy then compare the ways & doctrines to scripture. The pope and its watering down of the gospel is my biggest problem with RCC. This is not the Catholic people. Just their head. The Holy Spirit is the one who speaks God's Word to the Church and not the Pope. The pope is not a person I see in the trinity. Nor is he someone I see in God's Church in accordance with the Bible. His character and position is far removed from that of the early church as seen in the book of Acts.

Lastly I do not think that the Roman Empire (not Italy) is of any significance today as the beast is said to go away and come back. We are at a time when the beast has gone away.

How the beast will return and with which countries within it (it is an empire and not a country - i.e. Italy) I do not have any idea. Whether it is a European / American union I do not want to guess. I just know it will be headed from Rome. I also think that it will have a rule of ten kings who are a different ten mentioned in Daniel & Rev 12. These ten kings will not have a country of their own. From this returned beast will come the false Messiah who will join with Islam (two horned beast looks like a lamb). Islam will be lead by a mighty prophet who will be a descendant of Muhammad. They will appear to bring about peace on Earth. Where or what nation the false messiah will be I also don't know. Whether he be an Arab or an Israeli or a gentile I can only make a guess at. The false Messiah will make a truce with Israel for 3 1/2 years and allow the temple to be rebuilt. Jews will fall for the beast but the truce will be broken and he will bring about the most deadly war against Israel which will happen for an additional 3 1/2 years before the real Jesus return upon the clouds.

Ok....I am a member of the supposed Whore and I have read this entire thread - if you can the Book of the Bible, the one you claim to be such an expert on, the book of Revelations one more time, the irony will simply strike me dead,

Listen, most of the book of Revelation has already occurred. Imagery from the Book of Daniel was used by the author of the book to write an encrypted record of contemporary events. Nero (666) was the Beast; Jesus is the Temple that was raised again; the rise of the East - Byzantine Empire (a people who never used the word Byzantine to describe themselves - they called themselves Roman) after the decline of the West.

[font="tahoma][size="2"]So, the tribulation already occurred. It is a historical event, which occurred after the Temple was destroyed and raised again in three days (Jesus's resurrection); and during the time of the Beast, 666, Nero who took his seat as the god of the whole world. Many Christians were martyred and continued to be executed until The Whole World was converted to Christianity (Rome legalized Christianity) - then the reign of Christ lasted a long time (The Kingdom of God in Christian's hearts for 1000 years) - now we wait for Christ.[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"] [/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]Labeling the Catholic Church as the Great Whore is so.......David Hunt of you. Infantile and tired. Please educate yourself on Catholic doctrine and practice before you start turning out my church - thanks!
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[revturmoil]

How the beast will return and with which countries within it (it is an empire and not a country - i.e. Italy) I do not have any idea. Whether it is a European / American union I do not want to guess. I just know it will be headed from Rome.

Here's a start for you. Where is Rome???

Ezekiel 38:5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

Ezekiel 38:13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee,

Psalms 83:4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
5 For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:
6 The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes;
7 Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre;
8 Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah.
9 ¶Do unto them as unto the Midianites; as to Sisera, as to Jabin, at the brook of Kison:
10 Which perished at Endor: they became as dung for the earth.
11 Make their nobles like Oreb, and like Zeeb: yea, all their princes as Zebah, and as Zalmunna:

You just know it will be headed by Rome! And how does Tsigano prove this from God's Word???

I also think that it will have a rule of ten kings who are a different ten mentioned in Daniel & Rev 12. These ten kings will not have a country of their own. From this returned beast will come the false Messiah who will join with Islam (two horned beast looks like a lamb). Islam will be lead by a mighty prophet who will be a descendant of Muhammad. They will appear to bring about peace on Earth. Where or what nation the false messiah will be I also don't know. Whether he be an Arab or an Israeli or a gentile I can only make a guess at. The false Messiah will make a truce with Israel for 3 1/2 years and allow the temple to be rebuilt. Jews will fall for the beast but the truce will be broken and he will bring about the most deadly war against Israel which will happen for an additional 3 1/2 years before the real Jesus return upon the clouds.

Islam will never merge with any other religion. There will ne no 'truce' with Israel. The word for covenant doesn't mean a truce or peace treaty. It means an alliance and that's what we see in Ezekiel 38 and Psalm 83. Israel will never be confederate with it's enemies. Neither will there be a rebuilt temple so that animal sacrifices can resume only to have them cease.

Show me a verse that proves the rebuilding of a temple and a verse confirming a truce between Israel and the man of sin. that becomes 'broken.'

You don't seem to base your theories on scripture. You just believe what you do regardless of the lack of scriptural evidence.