Rome's 7 0F 10 Hills

[revturmoil]

Sure there is a scripture supporting The Roman Empire as the end times beast. Tsigano and I have already proved that to you.

Rev 12:3 & 4

Unless you know of another kingdom that was a world power at the time of the birth of Christ, then, wahla, Rome was it.
Therefore, being Rome was the world power at the time of the birth of Christ, and that world power was symbolized by a 7 headed beast, then everywhere else in prophetic scripture, where it shows a 7 headed beast, the implication is that it is Roman Empire related.

As to the extent of the Roman Empire, the eastern half composed of Israel, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Most of Iraq and all of Turkey, as well as the "-stan countries. If ya don't believe me, looky fur yerself:

http://www.roman-emp...ay-nations.html

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Expain to me how you pull Rome out of this verse. Keep in mind that if you believe this verse indicates Rome as the origin of any beast or end-time entity it must be backed by all the other prophetic scriptures. Nothing can contradict and everything must be in accord for it to be true. The RRE contradicts a host of scriptures.

If Rome is soon to emerge as the end-time beast, why is it that more christians have been murdered at the hands of Muslim's in from 1998 to the present than in ALL of history.

Rome cannot be the city of seven hills because the woman is said to have fled into the wilderness. The word is better translated 'dessert'. Rome is not in a dessert.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2048&t=KJV
Vatican City and the city of Rome is not built on seven hills, but on only one: Vatican Hill. This hill is not one of the seven Rome was supposedly constructed upon. Those seven (the Quirinal, Viminal, Esquiline, Caelian, Aventine, Palatine, and Capitoline hills) are located on the east side of the Tiber River. Vatican Hill is located on the west side." That isn't in accord with scripture.

Rome and the EU are lawful societies. The Arab world is about the most lawless place on earth and the lawless one will come from that lawless culture of the Islamic Middle East.
Who does Habakkuk say God will raise up in the last days? The Italians?!

Habakkuk 1 identifies and depicts Islam's goals of world dominance via terrorism.

Habakkuk 1:1 ¶The burden which Habakkuk the prophet did see.
2 O LORD, how long shall I cry, and thou wilt not hear! even cry out unto thee of violence, and thou wilt not save!
3 Why dost thou shew me iniquity, and cause me to behold grievance? for spoiling and violence are before me: and there are that raise up strife and contention.
4 Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.
5 ¶Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.
6 For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, (people) which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.
7 They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves.
8 Their horses also are swifter than the leopards, and are more fierce than the evening wolves: and their horsemen shall spread themselves, and their horsemen shall come from far; they shall fly as the eagle that hasteth to eat.
9 They shall come all for violence: their faces shall sup up as the east wind, and they shall gather the captivity as the sand.
Rome is not found in one verse of prophecy. All of the end time alliances mentioned in the bible are dominated by a mixture of Arab Islamic tribes and clans. Rome is completely excluded. The type of people described in Habukkuk 1:6, 2 Timothy 3:1, AND the words of Jesus in John 16:2, all fit the people of Islam, radical Islam, the jihadist, their methods, and ultimate goal. John and Habukkuk describe the harlots offspring and the people who fill her golden cup.

No gentile nation today or in the recent past has ever openly stated their intention of world domination or the destruction of all unbelievers (infidels) or the complete destruction America and Israel...other than the Arab's and Muslim's. There are dozens of jihadist sects whose goal's and intentions are just that. Rome is not out "conquering and to conquer!" Islam is!

A devout Muslim bows toward Mecca 5 times a day. They're bowing to a black rock some consider to be a meteorite. A devout Muslim's may bow to that 'black rock' a million times in their lifetime and may have some figurative meanings for Christian's since we stand on the Rock of ages, and the rock they bow to is black.
http://www.crystalinks.com/blackstone.html
________________________________________
http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/places/mecca.htm
The most sacred place in Islam is the Ka'ba in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. The Ka'ba is a mosque (built by Abraham according to Muslim tradition) built around a black stone. The Prophet Muhammad designated Mecca as the holy city of Islam and the direction (qibla) in which all Muslims should offer their prayers.

The Ka'ba is believed to be the first place that was created on earth {2} and the place at which heavenly bliss and power touches the earth directly. {3} Mecca is located in the Hijaz region of western Saudi Arabia. The city lies inland 73 kilometers east of Jiddah, in the narrow, sandy Valley of Abraham. The Holy City is 277 meters (909 feet) above sea level.
___________________________________________________________________

The RRE is also contradicted by Daniel 2. You have no answer to how the Persian Empire could be land inferior to Babylon. The Word of God is clear on the subject. The Mede's took Babylon!

In Isaiah 13, God say's He would stir up the Mede's against Babylon. Not the Persian's!

Daniel 5 quotes Darius the Mede as the one who "took" Babylon at the age of 62.

Daniel, Isaiah's, and Jeremiah's prophecies ascribe the conquest and destruction of Babylon to the Medes.

Daniel 5:31
"And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old."

Isaiah 13:17
"Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, ie.(Babylon)

Daniel 8:3 explains the inferior kingdom as the smaller horn that came up first..
Daniel 2:40-43. NLT

The iron and clay doesn't support an Italian society but an Arab one. The word mixed or mingled means an Arabian or Arabia.

Following that kingdom, there will be a fourth great kingdom, as strong as iron. That kingdom will smash and crush all previous empires, just as iron smashes and crushes everything it strikes. The feet and toes you saw that were a combination of iron and clay show that this kingdom will be divided. Some parts of it will be strong as iron, and others as weak as clay. This mixture of iron and clay shows that these kingdoms will try to strenghten themselves by forming alliances with each other through intermarriage. But this will not succeed, just as iron and clay do not mix.

Absolutely true of the Arab world and the Chaldean word "mixed". Not true of Rome! In Arabic, the word "Arab" is probably an alteration of the word "crossed" and supports what the scriptures are saying that they are "mixed with the seed of men." The NLT uses the word 'intermarried' which is so true of the Arabs but not the Romans!

Since the time of Ishmael, the Arab people have divided into several tribes and clans. There are over 250 in Northern Africa alone and several hundred in Iraq just to give you an example. The two major sects of Islam have divided into many subdivisions and have always been at odds with one another...
even as iron is not mixed with clay.

The Arabs have live up to the word 'mixed' since they have intermarried extensively. Iron and clay better represent the Ishmaelites (mixed with the seed of men) or today's Arab/Muslim world. They are a divided, intermarried, uncleaved, and have lawless societies with hundres upon hundreds of different tribes and clans. That's where the lawless Assyrian anti-christ will emerge from.

The ‘little horn’ of Daniel 7 and 8 who takes his stand against the Prince of princes comes out of Alexander’s splintered kingdom and no where else. And the ‘king of the north" in Daniel 11 and 12, who exalts himself in the time of the end, comes out of the root of Antiochus, again a fragment of Alexander’s empire. Why then do so many prophecy experts continue to tell us that Rome is somehow the origin of the beast!?

Isaiah 10, 14, and 30 all depict an Assyrian as the tool of God's wrath in the last days. (Not a Roman) All the nations mentioned in every prophecy I know are Arab and/or Islamic today and they are commiting the abominations of the earth. Not Rome. Not Catholicism.

Daniel 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

In Daniel 11 the mighty king and both the king of the north and south, the vile person and raiser of taxes that stands up come from 'Grecia'. Not ROME!

Daniel 11:2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.
3 And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.

Can you see how the RRE contradicts a host of scriptures?

The head of gold=Babylon
The arms of silver=Mede's
The thighs of brass=Persian's
The legs of iron=Greece
The toes mingled (arab) with iron and clay=the people of ten nation Arab/Islamic Empire of the beast that originates from the geographical area of the Grecian Empire.

And the stone that smote the image destroyed all of these Mid-East kingdoms depicted in the statue .

The Roman didn't behead people and I don't know what makes you think they would do that in the last days. It's Islam that beheads people today not Rome Italy!

Revelation s20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Islam is the direct opposite of Christianity, rejects all of the prophets and apostles, and deny's the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. They are the ones bent on world domination and they will bring us tribulation and try and take Israel out.

Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38-39 both mention Arab/Muslim countries...NOT EUROPEAN!

I have already explained!!!

Today, it's not priest and altar boys who are strapping bombs to themselves and detonating them in market places, bus stations, airports and schools. It's not the altar boys who cut peoples heads off and puts them on a card table in the middle of a street so the common people can see what happens to Muslim apostates. It's not Catholic's who are sending disabled women into pet stores with a bird cage laced with explosives and remotely detonating them. It wasn't Catholic's in Saudi Arabia who sent 14 teenage school girls back into a burning school building to die for coming out of it with their faces uncovered. It's not Bishops and Cardinals who entice people to kill others with the reward of as many as 72 virgins in paradise. It's the Islamic whore of Babylon! The Harlot holds a cup full of the abominations of the earth commited by the jihadist. The Catholic's no longer do these kind of things.

It's no wonder one surah reads,

Surah 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Sorry. I don't have time to edit this post.

 

[Tsigano]

Sure there is a scripture supporting The Roman Empire as the end times beast. Tsigano and I have already proved that to you.

Rev 12:3 & 4

Popeye. I think you are misunderstood. This is something that came to me through my own private Bible studies some time ago. The only thing that has become enlightened to me which actually confirms what I already believed is the beast with clay and iron being a fifth beast and representing a divided Empire with Rome within it (EU or EU & US etc). That and I didn't know that the EU was started with the Treaty of Rome. Everything else I think is quite common knowledge among many within the Christian Church.

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Expain to me how you pull Rome out of this verse. Keep in mind that if you believe this verse indicates Rome as the origin of any beast or end-time entity it must be backed by all the other prophetic scriptures. Nothing can contradict and everything must be in accord for it to be true. The RRE contradicts a host of scriptures.

If Rome is soon to emerge as the end-time beast, why is it that more christians have been murdered at the hands of Muslim's in from 1998 to the present than in ALL of history.

Rome cannot be the city of seven hills because the woman is said to have fled into the wilderness. The word is better translated 'dessert'. Rome is not in a dessert.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
http://www.bluelette...ngs=G2048&t=KJV
Vatican City and the city of Rome is not built on seven hills, but on only one: Vatican Hill. This hill is not one of the seven Rome was supposedly constructed upon. Those seven (the Quirinal, Viminal, Esquiline, Caelian, Aventine, Palatine, and Capitoline hills) are located on the east side of the Tiber River. Vatican Hill is located on the west side." That isn't in accord with scripture.

Hi kaoticprofit,

I'm confused with your comment.

The women is Israel. This is confirmed by the dream that Joseph had with the twelve stars. Rome is the dragon with 10 horns and seven heads. The exact same ten horns and seven heads mentioned as the beast in Daniel.
The woman (Israel / Jews) gave birth to a son (Jesus). The Jews then were sent out into the people of the Earth. until the appointed time. Rome attacked Jerusalem and destroyed their temple of God. That is why the Jews were spread throughout the world and eventually received Israel back at the end of the second world war. That is why they are returning in vast numbers.

I for one am not saying the Vatican. I am saying Rome as in the empires that center around it. The Vatican is not an empire of such a grand scale. Sure the Vatican sits upon the beast of Rome but it is not Rome.

I have no doubt that the numbers you quote about Islam killing more Christians may be true but it is not a true number anybody really may a statement from as nobody knows how many Christians were put to death by the Romans.
When you look at the act of Rome destroying the temple and the Jews being sent into the furthest corners of the world, it makes perfect sense of God's plan.
firstly God didn't require sacrifice as Jesus was the sacrifice. The Jews just didn't accept this and any sacrifice would be an insult to God. Rome making the Jews run into the nations helps spread Christianity as the early Christians fled into Asia, Europe and Africa and whilst doing so spread the Word of God.
It was during this time that Rome tried to wipe out and persecute the Christian. It was only when Christianity got out of control that it did a u-turn and actually embraced Christianity. But whilst doing so tried to take control and placed a man of the Earth at the top who is supposedly closest to God (Is it not the Holy Spirit who is our mediator?)

Islam I believe is the second beast of Revelations. This second beast is mentioned for a reason and it is not a small beast to be unrecognized. If the seas and the waters represent the nations of the world then what is the land? Is it possibly a representation for the land of Abraham's promise and his seed?

 

[Tsigano]

made mistake. wanted to edit my last post and replied by mistake. Not sure how to delete

I realize why. I can't edit anymore. I was going to add at end with reference to the beast of the land:
[font="tahoma]
Is it posible that if God's promise of a son was about Jesus then God's promise about Ishmael was about Islam?[/font]

 

[revturmoil]

I'm confused with your comment.

The women is Israel. This is confirmed by
the dream that Joseph had with the twelve stars. Rome is the dragon with 10
horns and seven heads. The exact same ten horns and seven heads mentioned as the
beast in Daniel.
The woman (Israel / Jews) gave birth to a son (Jesus). The
Jews then were sent out into the people of the Earth. until the appointed time.
Rome attacked Jerusalem and destroyed their temple of God. That is why the Jews
were spread throughout the world and eventually received Israel back at the end
of the second world war. That is why they are returning in vast
numbers.

I for one am not saying the Vatican. I am saying Rome as in the
empires that center around it. The Vatican is not an empire of such a grand
scale. Sure the Vatican sits upon the beast of Rome but it is not Rome.


I have no doubt that the numbers you quote about Islam killing more Christians
may be true but it is not a true number anybody really may a statement from as
nobody knows how many Christians were put to death by the Romans.
When you
look at the act of Rome destroying the temple and the Jews being sent into the
furthest corners of the world, it makes perfect sense of God's plan.
firstly
God didn't require sacrifice as Jesus was the sacrifice. The Jews just didn't
accept this and any sacrifice would be an insult to God. Rome making the Jews
run into the nations helps spread Christianity as the early Christians fled into
Asia, Europe and Africa and whilst doing so spread the Word of God.
It was
during this time that Rome tried to wipe out and persecute the Christian. It was
only when Christianity got out of control that it did a u-turn and actually
embraced Christianity. But whilst doing so tried to take control and placed a
man of the Earth at the top who is supposedly closest to God (Is it not the Holy
Spirit who is our mediator?)

Islam I believe is the second beast of
Revelations. This second beast is mentioned for a reason and it is not a small
beast to be unrecognized. If the seas and the waters represent the nations of
the world then what is the land? Is it possibly a representation for the land of
Abraham's promise and his
seed?

I know that the woman is Israel. My reply was opposed to the comment that the woman of Revelation 12 was Rome.

Popeye said,

"Sure there is a scripture supporting The Roman Empire as the end times beast. Tsigano and I have already proved that to you.

Rev 12:3 & 4"

I'm not sure about a lot of things so I don't have my mind made up on a lot of this. I always express my opinion none of which is etched in stone.

It's easier to prove what "is not" than "what is" when it comes to end-time prophecy.

To assume that Rome of the past is the origin of any of the end time beast because they persecuted Christian's in the first century is a hermeneutical error indeed. There's simply not one verse of prophecy that supports Rome having anything in any way to do with the last days. Christians and Catholics fought side by side in the crusades. Had it not been for Charles Martel of France there's a good chance Christianity would have nearly been blotted out and all of Europe could have fallen to Islam.

We all need to reconsider our vews on prophecy. There's so much to study...that is if you really want to do it right. I believe that the 18 countries now in rebellion in the Middle-East is the "apostasy." Daniel 7 seems to imply that four end time beast will be in a struggle for dominance of the area of the Mediterranean in the last days. The unstable conditions over there right now is condusive to the emergence of those beast.

I don't believe globalism. I think it's clear Islam will have all to do with bringing tribulation to the world and produce the many beast of the end.

 

[popeye]

I know that the woman is Israel. My reply was opposed to the comment that the woman of Revelation 12 was Rome.

Popeye said,

"Sure there is a scripture supporting The Roman Empire as the end times beast. Tsigano and I have already proved that to you.

Rev 12:3 & 4"

I'm not sure about a lot of things so I don't have my mind made up on a lot of this. I always express my opinion none of which is etched in stone.

It's easier to prove what "is not" than "what is" when it comes to end-time prophecy.

There's simply not one verse of prophecy that supports Rome having anything in any way to do with the last days.

Kao - there simply is not one verse of prophecy that supports ANY PARTICULAR COUNTRY.

If ya know prophecy, Kao, then you know the combined forces of Islam, allied with Russia, will attempt an invasion of Israel in the future ( Ezk 38 & 39, Joel 2 & Rev 12: 15 & 16 ). Those armies
will be totally destroyed ( 85 % ) by God himself. This will take place BEFORE the start of the GT. So Islam, and Arabs will be non-players in the end time events.

 

[BibleScribe]

Hi Popeye,

misunderstood your question, I guess...

The lion is England, who likely is the mouthpiece for the beast kingdom, with great iron teeth ( meaning he devours his political enemies somehow ).
The leopard probably refers to the swiftness of taking-over control of the world's countries.
The bear indicates the fierceness of his take-over, with nails of brass ( similar to Alexander's conquering ? )

There....I took a "stab" at it....

Thanks for a response, but I was asking a different question. My question is: Why is the Lion the Head; the Leopard the Body; and the Bear the Feet?

-- Is there some significance to not only the 2:45 sequence (i.e., Intelligent Design), but is there some significance to the three beasts assigned to the respective Body of the Beast portions (i.e., Intelligent Design)?

Rev 12:3 & 4 shows a beast with 7 heads. If your premise is correct, that is, the empires equal the 7 heads, then at this point in history the Roman Empire was only the fourth kingdom on earth, but there was a beast with 7 heads shown at that time. ...

I would argue your point that if the beast must be fulfilled in Jesus' time (as recorded by John) for the sequence of world empires; then Jesus must be fulfilled in Adam's time (as recorded in Genesis), under the plan of salvation.



BibleScribe

Sorry BS.
I can't accept this as any form of fact. Saying things like Britain & the Us etc has absolutely no grounds of evidence other than your own personal theory. ...

Well, if you are unfamiliar with World History then I suppose you could take that position. However, if you had a History book, then you could validate not only the false ancient assignments (in violation of Daniel 12:4 & Daniel 12:9), but equally validate the TRUTH of both Scripture and History.


Do you not have a History book?



BibleScribe

 

[Tsigano]

Well, if you are unfamiliar with World History then I suppose you could take that position. However, if you had a History book, then you could validate not only the false ancient assignments (in violation of Daniel 12:4 & Daniel 12:9), but equally validate the TRUTH of both Scripture and History.


Do you not have a History book?


BibleScribe

lol. Yes I do have a history book. I love history and anthropology. I greatly study history, cultures, language, DNA etc.

Since when was Britain or the US at the center of the known world or when did did Britain rule the known world as much as the Romans did? Sure they were influential but in truth they just compete with other European & world nations for control and recognition.

 

[BibleScribe]

lol. Yes I do have a history book. ...

Wonderful. So if we start with Scripture, do you find any significance of the Daniel 2:45 sequence ~4,3,5,2,1, = FIVE? (Please note the firing order of an Audi 5-cylinder engine is 1,2,4,5,3, -- and this is intelligent design. As such I would equally suggest that the Daniel 2:45 ~4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE is even MORE Intelligent, as this is DIVINE Instruction.)


BibleScribe

PS Please note that I DO find a value in the ~4,3,5,2,1 sequence, in that the Clay is separated from the Iron, so as to distinguish the FOUR Unique empires, and this FIFTH distinct "divided" empire. Thus the FIFTH is separated from the FOURTH to discount a 4a/4b scenario, and arrive to the TRUE FIVE world empire sequence in which this FIFTH empire follows the Roman Representative Republic model, but is NOT Roman, for not only is that empire DEAD, but another (Italy) occupies that ancient geography. -- Thus the three concurrent superpowers in the era approximate to 1948, in agreement with Daniel 12:4 & Daniel 12:9.

 

[revturmoil]

Kao - there simply is not one verse of prophecy that
supports ANY PARTICULAR COUNTRY.

If ya know
prophecy, Kao, then you know the combined forces of
Islam, allied with Russia, will attempt an invasion of Israel in the future (
Ezk 38 & 39, Joel 2 & Rev
12: 15 & 16
). Those armies
will be totally destroyed ( 85 % ) by God himself. This will
take place BEFORE the start of the GT. So Islam,
and Arabs will be non-players in the end time
events.

You really know how to fool yourself.

You've latched onto a theory that is entirely based on the Ez. 38-39 invasion and under the ridiculous assumption that Islam will be non-players in the end-time events.

I guess you just don't see it, or want to admit you may be wrong. You guys are to much into yur own head and just don't move. You just can't put it together. The problem with many of you inexperienced interpreters is that you don't have a hermeneutic and disregard the scriptural evidence.

The bible does tell us where the end-time beast will emerge from and it's not Rome! But you refuse to see or hear it.

 

[popeye]

The problem with many of you inexperienced interpreters is that you don't have a hermeneutic and disregard the scriptural evidence.

Been studying the prophetic scriptures since my calling to do so in 1976. I'm hardly inexperienced in these discussions / debates / forums.
My passion for prophecy, with help from the Holy Spirit, compelled me to write a book on the subject entitled:

A House Divided - Seven Events Before Rapture & The Coming Christian Holocaust

You're welcome to peruse it at:

www.armageddonbooks.com/324house.html

or

www.trafford.com/robots/04-1620.html

It also is available on Amazon and Barnes & Noble ( enter book search keywords: rapture / holocaust ).

Incidentally, the "theory" is not "entirely based on Ezk 38 & 39", as you think. I also provided Joel 2 and Rev 12:15 & 16 as further proof.
And there are more scriptures than those for verification.

 

[BibleScribe]

Kao - there simply is not one verse of prophecy that supports ANY PARTICULAR COUNTRY.
...

Hey Popeye,

Actually, I can cite the following nations as assigned prophetic significance:

Russia
Japan
N. Korea
S. Korea
N. Vietnam
S. Vietnam
China
India
Iran
Iraq
Israel
Germany
Norway
France
England
Somalia
Egypt
Lybia
Nigeria
Brazil
United States

Please note there may be more which others might discern.


If you would like the Scriptural citations for this assertion, please let me know.

BibleScribe

 

[popeye]

Hey Popeye,

Actually, I can cite the following nations as assigned prophetic significance:

Russia
Japan
N. Korea
S. Korea
N. Vietnam
S. Vietnam
China
India
Iran
Iraq
Israel
Germany
Norway
France
England
Somalia
Egypt
Lybia
Nigeria
Brazil
United States

Please note there may be more which others might discern.


If you would like the Scriptural citations for this assertion, please let me know.

BibleScribe

I don't deny you those assignments. My point was - with rare exception - no country's NAME OR CITY is called out in prophecy. ( Minus the obvious Egypt, Libya, Ethiopia, Jerusalem, etc.. ).

So saying that Rome / Italy was not mentioned in prophecy is a lame justification for denying their possible significance in ET fulfillment.

 

[BibleScribe]

... saying that Rome / Italy was not mentioned in prophecy is a lame justification for denying their possible significance in ET fulfillment.

Sorry Popeye, I misunderstood your point.

I stand in full agreement with your assessment regarding how GOD uses depictions rather than names in MANY instances.


BibleScribe

 

[Tsigano]

Wonderful. So if we start with Scripture, do you find any significance of the Daniel 2:45 sequence ~4,3,5,2,1, = FIVE? (Please note the firing order of an Audi 5-cylinder engine is 1,2,4,5,3, -- and this is intelligent design. As such I would equally suggest that the Daniel 2:45 ~4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE is even MORE Intelligent, as this is DIVINE Instruction.)


BibleScribe

PS Please note that I DO find a value in the ~4,3,5,2,1 sequence, in that the Clay is separated from the Iron, so as to distinguish the FOUR Unique empires, and this FIFTH distinct "divided" empire. Thus the FIFTH is separated from the FOURTH to discount a 4a/4b scenario, and arrive to the TRUE FIVE world empire sequence in which this FIFTH empire follows the Roman Representative Republic model, but is NOT Roman, for not only is that empire DEAD, but another (Italy) occupies that ancient geography. -- Thus the three concurrent superpowers in the era approximate to 1948, in agreement with Daniel 12:4 & Daniel 12:9.

The kingdom of God is already here. We as Christian can see the kingdom of God. We have interaction through the Holy Spirit who is with us through Jesus. It is through Jesus that is the only way to see the kingdom. You can't access it through any other way.

God has already established His kingdom on Earth. A kingdom that will endure forever. When this Earth perishes, the kingdom that Jesus has established won't.

(was not this the act that saves us all? Was not this great coming that most the Bible prophesied to? including most of those of Daniel)

How can you dismiss all the verses such as Rev 12 that clearly say the beast will be there at the birth of Christ, then list a whole load of different nations that have absolutely no relevance or mention in the Bible what-so-ever?
Britain has no importance. It is no more important than countries such France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Netherlands, Belgium, Russia, Turkey, Austria, Hungary, Italy, India, Japan, Thailand, China. Each have had their highs and lows. Europeans did occupy the Holy lands which is often the subject of many Bible verses but that was a combined effort made mostly of Germans and French. They also did this under the banner of Rome, did they not?

Magog I can see as possibly being Russia as it is to the far north and also Magog was a son of Japheth who through using DNA research is of a branch not related to the Chaldeans, Jews and Arabs who we know are from Shem, nor are they related to Egyptians or Ethiopians who we know are from Ham.

Russians and other eastern Europeans mostly carry the haplogroup R1a which is the related to R1b which is the haplogroup that is most common through western and central Europe. R1a is also believed to be of central Asia origin such as the Getae & Scythians who also migrated west into Europe but also south into India and Persia possibly due to displacement from Turkic and Mongol people. The haplogroup R (from which we get r1a, r1b & r2) is believed to be the haplogroup of the original people who first brought us the Indo-European language group.

This however has nothing to do with the beast with ten kings and seven hills who is mentioned in Daniel & Revelations (especially Rev 12).
The beast that was there at the time of Christ being born and the time when the Jews were sent into the nations of the world.

 

[BibleScribe]

The kingdom of God is already here. ...

I guess you decline to follow the intelligent Design of Daniel 2:45, and prefer to justify your doctrines at the feet of your own suppositions.

Good Luck,
BibleScribe




To All,

Scripture provides:

Proverbs 14:12
[sup]12[/sup] There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.

And this is NOT to suggest that anyone will suffer eternal flames for missing what GOD has provided to the church by way of Prophecy. However, it IS indicative of a man's heart and spirit when that man will not heed the TRUTH of Scripture, -- even in such an innocuous verse as Daniel 2:45.


BibleScribe

 

[Tsigano]

I guess you decline to follow the intelligent Design of Daniel 2:45, and prefer to justify your doctrines at the feet of your own suppositions.

Good Luck,
BibleScribe




To All,

Scripture provides:

Proverbs 14:12
[sup]12[/sup] There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.

And this is NOT to suggest that anyone will suffer eternal flames for missing what GOD has provided to the church by way of Prophecy. However, it IS indicative of a man's heart and spirit when that man will not heed the TRUTH of Scripture, -- even in such an innocuous verse as Daniel 2:45.


BibleScribe

BS. It seems you are so self righteous. I have not seen any real evidence for your argument rather than listing a whole load of modern countries that have absolutely no mention in the Bible. That and you dismissing what to many seems relatively self explanatory. That is why for many years and is still the case that many Christians (if not the majority) have seen the beast of Daniel as Rome (and the re-mention in Rev as being or connected with or from Rome).

It seems that anyone who dismisses your theories are doomed to punishment, lol.
Trust me I feel quite secure in my inner feeling that the beast with ten horns in Daniel was and is Rome.

You still haven't explained Rev 12? It is very clear that the women is Israel and the dragon is the same beast mentioned in Daniel.
The beasts in Daniel are for many quite blatantly a list of beasts from Daniel's time until the Christ.

It seems you don't give enough credit for the coming and acts of Christ but are more bent on proving it is all about the end times and about mankind.

Rome was the beast that destroyed the temple of God. Does this not account for anything? Rome was the beast that persecuted the early church and martyred the disciples of Jesus. Does this not account for anything?
Catholicism and the Pope is one of the world's most influential icons when it comes down to Christianity. Many Christians are under it whilst many do not see it as being from Jesus. Regardless of belief, it is still and major world focal point of Christianity. Catholicism is centered on Rome (baring in mind the Vatican City was established in 1929 by Mussolini)
Rome is mentioned throughout the New Testament and we even have the book of Romans.
How then can you say it is insignificant. After Jerusalem it is probably the most significant city to Christianity. Some see it as a base for Christianity and other see it as a threat. Either way it is significant.

 

[BibleScribe]

... I have not seen any real evidence for your argument ...

Daniel 2:45
Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold—the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure.”

I simply asked if the sequence of the Iron,Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold, (~4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE), is significant, -- and you refuse to answer.



Either Scripture is for the church, or it's not. If it is then please heed it, if it's not then please ignore it.

BibleScribe

 

[BibleScribe]

To All,

Re-reading this Topic, I noticed a mis-representation as highlighted in purple, with the omitted text highlighted in bold red, which needs the record set straight:


THE ORIGINAL POST

Hey Tsigano,

Before you try to parse the finer points of World History, don't you think it better to start with the simple sequence of Empires? For example to resolve the seven "heads", you might consider that Daniel 2 & Daniel 7 already provided that information per the following:

Daniel 2
1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
5. Clay, "divided"

Daniel 2 & 7
1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle -- U.K./U.S. (please note that Daniel 11:5 depicts this association)
-- 6. Bear with 3-ribs -- Russia and the three (and ONLY three) international violations since WWII
-- 7. Leopard with 4-heads/4-wings -- China, with the FOUR branches of government / "FOUR Modernizations"
-- 8. "dreadful" -- which "was and is not", because it has NO populous, NO geography, NO army, etc.

If one declines to evaluate the false ~ancient fulfillment~ accounts (which is CLEARLY UNSCRIPTURAL per Daniel 12:4 & Daniel 12:9) , then is TRUTH the objective, or is defending false doctrines the objective?

BibleScribe

THE MISREPRESENTED POST

to resolve the seven "heads", you might consider that Daniel 2 & Daniel 7 already provided that information per the following:

Daniel 2
1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman

BibleScribe

The seven heads of the beast existed well before the kingdoms listed above reigned.
They existed at the fall of Satan, as Rev 12:3 & 4 so indicate. Indeed, the dragon was seen by John IN HEAVEN ( not on earth ).
And his tail drew a 1/3 of the angelic realm to fall from grace with him. So, the seven heads existed well before
the Roman Empire, which is being infured here in Rev 12:3 & 4 at the time of the birth of Christ.

4 kingdoms do not equal 7 heads.

It certainly is ill advised to distort any TRUTH, whether claiming your wife as your "sister" (Ref. Genesis 20:2 and there Abraham said of his wife Sarah, “She is my sister.” Then Abimelek king of Gerar sent for Sarah and took her.) or misrepresenting the TRUE defense of the Daniel 2:45 FIVE World Empires:

Daniel 2
1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
5. Clay, "divided"


A simply apology would seem appropriate.
BibleScribe

 

[Tsigano]

BibleScribe

I think we all agree that the clay & Iron empire is a divided empire that comes after the Roman empire. doe not the empire have iron within it? Therefore it has the Rome within it.

That is the significance. As for the UK / US, then Russia, then.....
That is the part that has no grounds for support.

Saying the dragon was seen in Heaven is a cop out way to dismiss the facts. It is obvious this is speaking about the same beast on Earth. The same way the women with the stars in Heaven is a symbol of the Jews. She gave birth to a child - Jesus. This is also a representation of things on Earth.

 

[popeye]

To All,

Re-reading this Topic, I noticed a mis-representation as highlighted in purple, with the omitted text highlighted in bold red, which needs the record set straight:


THE ORIGINAL POST




THE MISREPRESENTED POST




It certainly is ill advised to distort any TRUTH, whether claiming your wife as your "sister" (Ref. Genesis 20:2 and there Abraham said of his wife Sarah, “She is my sister.” Then Abimelek king of Gerar sent for Sarah and took her.) or misrepresenting the TRUE defense of the Daniel 2:45 FIVE World Empires:

Daniel 2
1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
5. Clay, "divided"


A simply apology would seem appropriate.
BibleScribe

My bad and I apologize. It wasn't intentional....

Point is: AT THE TIME OF THE BIRTH OF CHRIST THE ROMAN EMPIRE WAS THE WORLD EMPIRE, responsible for a host of future anti-Jew, anti-Christian works. So, the dragon shown with 7 heads in Rev 12:3 & 4 can be NO ONE OTHER THAN THE ROMAN EMPIRE. It doesn't matter what sequence Daniel's empires were recorded-in....when it comes to the identity of the 7 headed dragon / beast, the implication is that it is Roman Empire related, wherever it shows-up in prophecy. And the heads can not be representative of empires. Period. Indeed, I believe Christ had John record the image of the beast in Rev 12:3 & 4 so that it could be EASILY UNDERSTOOD WHO the 7 headed beast should be interpreted as. And there isn't too many Christians alive in this ET's generation who don't know who the world power was at the time of the life of Christ. My good God, it's clearly delineated in each and every Gospel written. And Rev 12:3 & 4 confirms that fact. Period.