Sabbath-Keeping

[ATP]

ATP, why do you insist that the phrase in 2 Peter 2:20-22 KJV, "they have escaped the pollutions of this world", refers to lost people who continue in their lost condition by preaching falsely?

Do you not realize that if they have "escaped the pollutions of this world" then they are no longer polluted, and the only way to be cleansed of that pollution is to be "cleansed by His blood"?

No, ATP, these were people who were cleansed of the pollutions of this world be accepting the salvation of Christ, but turned away from it and the fate that was theirs before they accepted salvation will be less severe than the fate that awaits them for walking away from Christ, a most woeful and unfortunate calamity.

I would respectively disagree. Nonbelievers are known to have the knowledge of truth but not salvation Rom 1:18 NIV, Rom 1:25 NIV, Rom 1:28 NIV. It's also impossible for a believer to deny the deity of Christ. The one who denies is actually considered the antichrist..

2 Pet 2:1 NIV But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Tit 1:15-16 NIV To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

1 John 2:22 NIV Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son.

Jude 1:4-7 NIV For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. 5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Have you figured out yet why Jesus was baptized?

No, please tell me.

 

[Barrd]

ATP, do you agree that we are to follow the example that Jesus left for us?



Joh 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 

[ATP]

ATP, do you agree that we are to follow the example that Jesus left for us?



Joh 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Absolutely, it's vital in our spiritual growth. I thought you were going to tell me why Jesus was baptized though.

 

[Barrd]

Absolutely, it's vital in our spiritual growth. I thought you were going to tell me why Jesus was baptized though.

Mat 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Mat 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

I thought you said you'd read the New Testament? Did you miss this verse?

 

[ATP]

Mat 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Mat 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

I thought you said you'd read the New Testament? Did you miss this verse?

What do you think it's saying?

 

[ATP]

ATP, why do you insist that the phrase in 2 Peter 2:20-22 KJV, "they have escaped the pollutions of this world", refers to lost people who continue in their lost condition by preaching falsely?

Do you not realize that if they have "escaped the pollutions of this world" then they are no longer polluted, and the only way to be cleansed of that pollution is to be "cleansed by His blood"?

No, ATP, these were people who were cleansed of the pollutions of this world be accepting the salvation of Christ, but turned away from it and the fate that was theirs before they accepted salvation will be less severe than the fate that awaits them for walking away from Christ, a most woeful and unfortunate calamity.

Give up this false idea of OSAS, brother, for it is the idea that dead faith can obtain that which only can be obtained by living faith: eternal life.

I would like to add also that 2 Peter 2:3 NIV mentions condemnation, but we know from scripture that believers are no longer condemned..Mark 16:16 NIV, John 3:18 NIV, John 5:28-29 NIV, John 8:11 NIV, John 16:11 NIV, Rom 3:6-8 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:1-2 NIV, Rom 8:34 ESV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:11-12 NIV, 2 Pet 2:3 NIV, 1 John 3:21 NIV, Jude 1:4-5 NIV

Lastly, 2 Peter 2:17 NIV mentions springs without water, but we know from scripture that this term refers to believers only. That is why those people are springs without water...

John 4:13-14 NIV Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

John 7:38-39 NIV Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them." 39By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

1 Pet 3:21 NIV and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.e It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Rev 7:17 NIV For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; ‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’ ‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’ "

Rev 21:6 NIV He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.

Rev 22:1-2 NIV Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

Rev 22:17 NIV The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

 

[Barrd]

So, I do not accept the OSAS doctrine. I believe with all my heart that a believer can turn away from Jesus...he can sin so as to lose his salvation.
Jesus, of course, knows that I believe this. He knows that I love Him, and that I worship Him...He knows my prayers and He knows my heart. He knows how I long just to please Him.

For this, He will reject me...is that right, ATP?

 

[Barrd]

What do you think it's saying?

I'd kind of like to hear your ideas on the subject.

 

[ATP]

So, I do not accept the OSAS doctrine. I believe with all my heart that a believer can turn away from Jesus...he can sin so as to lose his salvation.

But trying not to sin so as to keep your salvation is based on your works, no? Rather, it's not your works that keep you saved, it's his kindness towards you.

Rom 2:4 NIV Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

I'd kind of like to hear your ideas on the subject.

http://www.easyenglish.info/bible-commentary/matthew1-4-im-lbw.htm- Verses 13-17 Jesus came to the Jordan river. His purpose was to ask John to *baptise him. At first, John would not *baptise Jesus. John felt that Jesus was his superior. John’s work was to *baptise people who needed to *repent. Here was a man who needed no *repentance. Therefore, the *baptism should be the other way. Jesus should *baptise John. John was a humble man. He recognised that he was a *sinner. He needed God to forgive him as much as other people needed it. Jesus did not say that John was wrong. But Jesus said that it must be this way for now.

Then Jesus said that it was proper to do this. It would complete what was right. It is difficult for us to understand what Jesus meant. He had no need for *baptism. He had no *sin so he had no need to *repent. The *Old Testament does not say anything about the *baptism of the *Christ. But Jesus chose to live a life like ours. All of us need to *repent and Jesus entered into our world. He came to take our *sins on himself. And he died to take the punishment that should be ours.

John understood what Jesus said. Therefore, he agreed to *baptise Jesus. Jesus came up out of the water. Then there was a strange effect in the sky. Matthew said that the heavens opened. What that means we do not know. But the *Holy Spirit came down like a *dove and he (the *Holy Spirit) came on Jesus. John knew that it was God’s Spirit. We do not know if other people could see it. A *dove is a bird.
Then, out of the open heavens, God spoke. Jesus and John heard God’s voice. Probably other people heard it also. God told them that Jesus was his Son. Jesus had a relationship with God the Father that nobody else can have. Jesus was the one that God loved in a special way. And God had pleasure in his only Son.

This event shows what we mean by the *Trinity. The people saw Jesus. He is the Son of God. The *Holy Spirit, who is God, came down on Jesus. Then God the Father spoke about his Son. All three of them, the Father, the Son and the *Holy Spirit are God. We believe in one God.

 

[Phoneman777]

I would respectively disagree. Nonbelievers are known to have the knowledge of truth but not salvation Rom 1:18 NIV, Rom 1:25 NIV, Rom 1:28 NIV. It's also impossible for a believer to deny the deity of Christ. The one who denies is actually considered the antichrist..

2 Pet 2:1 NIV But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Tit 1:15-16 NIV To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

1 John 2:22 NIV Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son.

Jude 1:4-7 NIV For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. 5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.


No, please tell me.

ATP, you continually avoid the "pollution/cleansing" aspect of the passage. As in every other case, when the texts don't agree with OSAS, you dismiss them as irrelevant. Why don't you explain how a person can escape the pollutions of this world and yet still remain polluted.

 

[Barrd]

Jesus was baptized in order to assume our guilt. He stands with us and for us, identifying Himself as our Brother.
The One Who had no sin was made sin for us.

 

[Barrd]

ATP, you continually avoid the "pollution/cleansing" aspect of the passage. As in every other case, when the texts don't agree with OSAS, you dismiss them as irrelevant. Why don't you explain how a person can escape the pollutions of this world and yet still remain polluted.

I'd be interested in hearing you explain this also, ATP.
It is very frustrating when we post verses for you, and you totally ignore them, as you are doing with this verse.

 

[Phoneman777]

Jesus was baptized in order to assume our guilt. He stands with us and for us, identifying Himself as our Brother.
The One Who had no sin was made sin for us.

ATP says that people who "have escaped the pollutions of this world" are somehow still contaminated with the pollutions of this world, because if they were truly saved then they would be OSAS. Does that make sense to you?

 

[Barrd]

ATP says that people who "have escaped the pollutions of this world" are somehow still contaminated with the pollutions of this world, because if they were truly saved then they would be OSAS. Does that make sense to you?

So far, ATP hasn't said much of anything that makes sense to me. Color me naive...but I thought we all knew that deliberate, pre-meditated sin would still separate us from God...

 

[Barrd]

The thing about this OSAS doctrine is that it cheapens what Jesus did for us. It teaches a false security. It weakens the church.
Those who believe in this deception must explain away most of what Jesus taught. Every exhortation by the Apostles to holy living becomes irrelevant.
All of Christ's teachings become irrelevant. Why should we listen to His explanation of the Two Great Commandments? Or HIs parables of the prodigal son, for instance? None of that stuff applies to the OSAS believer...
OSAS encourages people in their sin...and that is dangerous.
It has got to be one of Satan's most ingenuous lies ever.

 

[ATP]

ATP, you continually avoid the "pollution/cleansing" aspect of the passage. As in every other case, when the texts don't agree with OSAS, you dismiss them as irrelevant. Why don't you explain how a person can escape the pollutions of this world and yet still remain polluted.

Just like any man that escapes sin. If he's an alcoholic then he will stop going to the liquor store, but not going to the liquor store doesn't cleanse you of your addiction. Only the free gift of salvation can do that and the sanctification of the Holy Spirit. The word "escaped" here in Greek is apopheugó, which means to flee from.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world,.... The sins of it, the governing vices of it, which the men of the world are addicted to, and immersed in; for the whole world lies in wickedness, and which are of a defiling nature: the phrase is Rabbinical; it is said (q),

Jesus was baptized in order to assume our guilt. He stands with us and for us, identifying Himself as our Brother.
The One Who had no sin was made sin for us.

Good answer. Jesus died for all sins and suffered much Luke 22:44 NIV.

I'd be interested in hearing you explain this also, ATP.
It is very frustrating when we post verses for you, and you totally ignore them, as you are doing with this verse.

Answer is above.

So far, ATP hasn't said much of anything that makes sense to me. Color me naive...but I thought we all knew that deliberate, pre-meditated sin would still separate us from God...

Even willful sin cannot separate us. If you are truly born again Barrd, you are going home.

Rom 8:31-39 ESV What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[ATP]

The thing about this OSAS doctrine is that it cheapens what Jesus did for us. It teaches a false security. It weakens the church.

Actually, that's incorrect. OSAS doctrine strengthens what Jesus did for us. We preach grace. You preach works. Preaching works cheapens what Jesus did for us, because you are saying what Jesus did on the cross isn't good enough for you. You must be perfect, and if you sin you will go to hell. That's not the Gospel.

 

[Barrd]

You have totally misunderstood what is being said to you.
We all realize that "works" do not get anyone into heaven...no one ever said that they did.
What is being said is that it is our faith that gets us into heaven. Faith in Jesus Christ, and in His finished work on Calvary.

However, we know, as James told us, that faith without works is dead. Dead faith is not going to save anyone.
Living faith follows Jesus, loves Him, and obeys Him. Dead faith returns again and again to the same old sins...why? Because it is dead.
To use the precious blood of Jesus as a cover for sin...now that cheapens His sacrifice.
And that is exactly what OSAS does.
I've heard too many, when asked how they could call themselves Christians and do ___________ (insert your favorite sin).....and their answer?
Jesus forgave my sins, past, present, and future.
They have no intention of repenting, and why should they? They said a "sinner's prayer"....and their pastor told them that they are saved...and they can't lose that salvation, no matter what they do.
And you can't see the deception?
*shudders*

 

[Barrd]

Satan's most ingenuous lie.
Did God truly say that the soul that sins shall die?
Don't worry....

Ye shall not surely die......

 

[Phoneman777]

Actually, that's incorrect. OSAS doctrine strengthens what Jesus did for us. We preach grace. You preach works. Preaching works cheapens what Jesus did for us, because you are saying what Jesus did on the cross isn't good enough for you. You must be perfect, and if you sin you will go to hell. That's not the Gospel.

You preach DEAD FAITH that makes works optional, and dead faith cannot obtain that which only can be obtained by LIVING FAITH: Eternal Life. If you understood that no one can perform good works except Jesus performs the works for him in him, then you'd give up this dead faith which can never garner Eternal Life.