Sabbath-Keeping

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Phoneman777

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ATP said:
Right, and when you do sin you do not lose your inheritance, rather you lose rewards in heaven.
ATP, what a gross misrepresentation of Scripture is your doctrine. The Bible doesn't say, "Blessed are they that do His commandments that they may get more jewels in their Crown of Life while others wear less ornamented crowns because they refused to give up "Freebase Fridays" and "Meth Mondays".

"The Bible says "Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have a right to the Tree of Life and may enter into the gates to the city." Get it? Entrance into the kingdom, not silly rewards after they stink up the place with their sinful characters.
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
ATP, we all agree that no one is getting into heaven without loving Jesus, right?

Therefore, when you read Jesus' words, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments", just keep His commandments and stop making up these ridiculous arguments like "continuing to break His commandments has nothing to do with our salvation". To the contrary, continued commandment breaking is the evidence that a person hates Jesus, no matter how "saved" they may claim to be.
I agree, we should keep his commandments but keeping them or not keeping them is not a requirement for salvation. The Word of God cannot be more simple. Once you believe you have eternal life. What are we believing in Phoneman? Works based salvation is false doctrine.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.

John 5:24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
Correct, he died so we can overcome sin but He died also for past, present and future sins. That's what you are not getting.

John 6:47 NIV Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
Jesus said He will tell those who refuse to cease from deliberate, known sin to depart from Him (Matthew 7:23 KJV). Do you believe everything He said, or just the stuff that supports your half-gospel?
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
Jesus said He will tell those who refuse to cease from deliberate, known sin to depart from Him (Matthew 7:23 KJV). Do you believe everything He said, or just the stuff that supports your half-gospel?
God isn't contradictory "bro". Matt 7:23 is about apostates, nonbelievers.
 

Phoneman777

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Bibliocentrist said:
Yes if God (and people) doesn't help us both inside and outside then it is difficult/burden and i am very angry and quit, as I have enough unreasonible striving just to survive hell each hour/day/week/month/year.
Of course christians are supposed to repent and need to be rebirthed/born-again and to "try" obey, and not do bad/sin and do/be good/right (Gods commandments not man's).

-----

re other posts:

The perfect law is spirit and is impossible for man to perfectly divide/interpret/codify it. It is impossible for humans without God to ever acheive perfect delicate proportions balance in every aspect of life (though doesn't mean we shouldn't try to do right).

Jesus said if you even look at a woman with lust you have commited adultery.
The man kept all 10 (gentile)/12 commandments yet lacked one thing.
The Jews between Moses and Jesus couldn't/wouldn't keep them, because there needed to be rebirth not just laws/effort.

If we live by / pray/ask for grace then we can't be purposely sinning, but also means it is impossible to be perfect (not that we shouldn't try).

The "if you *love* **me**" comes before/over/above the "keep my commandments".

And what is/are his commandments? To believe on him who he has sent, and to love one another, to care for widows and fatherless and keep self unspotted from the world.
Agreed - without Jesus obedience is impossible (Romans 8:7 KJV) but with Jesus all things are possible, and all means all, including keeping the Ten Commandments.
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
That's why they need to be born again. NON-OSAS simply do not understand grace.
mjrhealth said:
Its Love the ycannot comprehend. How can God love me?? Well He made us, thats why.
Only a slave to sin would conclude that the concepts of "grace" and "love" include the idea that Satan has more power to keep us enslaved to sinful habits than Jesus has to deliver us from them.
 

Joyful

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John Calvan? No silly, this is from the Word of God. All you gotta do is believe.

John 6:47 NIV Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
Suit yourself believe in half truth.

good day.
 

Phoneman777

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GerhardEbersoehn said:
'Hills' also is symbolic of worldly authorities. "Seven" is also symbolic for _all_ seats of human power.

Now what church sits on the city of seven hills of earthly governments? Not Rome but Christianity as a whole. And in which respect is Christianity --Sabbatharians included -- in perfect agreement and unity ? In respect of the dogma that Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday.
Brother, in John's day when he received the vision at Patmos, what city sat on seven hills and reigned over the kings of the whole earth and what apostate Christian organization found its home there and began slaughtering an estimated 50-150 million saints for refusing to go along with the many pagan doctrines it dragged into the Christian church?

When interpreting prophetic symbolism, let's not set aside the obvious for the obscure.
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
Only a slave to sin would conclude that the concepts of "grace" and "love" include the idea that Satan has more power to keep us enslaved to sinful habits than Jesus has to deliver us from them.
God isn't contradictory. If you want I can post the definition of "contradictory" for you.

Joyful said:
Suit yourself believe in half truth.

good day.
The Word of God isn't half truth. Are you calling God a liar. Shame on you.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.

John 5:24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
 

Joyful

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The Word of God isn't half truth. Are you calling God a liar. Shame on you.
You skip or disregard many of Jesus' word; that is half truth.

BTW, Jesus did not teach OSAS, it is John Calvin's teaching.
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
God isn't contradictory "bro". Matt 7:23 is about apostates, nonbelievers.
Dude, apostates are those who once believed on Jesus for salvation but turned away from it, so thanks for agreeing with me.
 

mjrhealth

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Only a slave to sin would conclude that the concepts of "grace" and "love" include the idea that Satan has more power to keep us enslaved to sinful habits than Jesus has to deliver us from them.
Satan has no power except that what is given to him, but than he has many enslaved to the law, For those who are in Christ He has set free indeed, who walk after the Spirit not after the Flesh. The law is all the flesh it is not the Spirit, it is the old wine the Holy Spirit is the New wine,

Act 2:12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
Act 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

And they where - The Holy Spirit the New wine had fallen upon them.

Or

Mat 9:16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

As He says it doenst work.

In All His Love

Again what are you willing to loose to gain all of Him???
 

Phoneman777

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Joyful said:
Suit yourself believe in half truth.

good day.
Yes, Joy, OSAS is a half truth - the first part. Why do people insist on investing the character of God with that of a brutal Muslim husband? In Islam, the wife is forced to remain with the husband, no matter how much she desires to leave, and OSAS Christians love the idea, that they may pursue and endless round of lustful, sinful indulgence while secure in the knowledge that their "Husband" will force them to remain with Him instead of him to whom they continually cast their affections, though he would destroy them in a demonic instant, were he not restrained by One who is more powerful than he.
 

ATP

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Dudes, either you believe or you don't. You must be born again to see the kingdom of God. Believe in the resurrection and accept Christ as your Savior. Time is running out.

[SIZE=12pt]Romans 10:9-10 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.[/SIZE]

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.

John 5:24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
 

Joyful

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Dudes, either you believe or you don't. You must be born again to see the kingdom of God.
If we are born again, we will have spirit of being faithful to Jesus' teaching, the whole teachings, not just a half.
 

ATP

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Joyful said:
If we are born again, we will have spirit of being faithful to Jesus' teaching, the whole teachings, not just a half.
Correct. Because Jesus will be faithful to us until the end. Very good Joyful.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
 

ATP

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Joyful said:
But you have been preaching OSAS. OSAS is not born again doctrine.
Well it is a born again doctrine. It's all about your belief in who Jesus Christ is. What do we have to believe in, in order to become born again Joyful? You're almost there.

Romans 10:9-10 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.

John 5:24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
 

ATP

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mjrhealth said:
So phoneman does that mean you hate Jesus since you too continually break them. You really havnt got your head around "love" have you.

1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

And that is why Love does not need the law and why those who insist on the law know not love.

Again what aer you willing to give up for all of Jesus???

In all His Love
Good post. Of course it was ignored. NON-OSAS sin every day and fall short yet preach righteousness? Seems backwards to me. To understand grace they would have to accept their sinful nature first, AND THEN accept God's love poured out on the cross. It's not their righteousness that helps them repent, it's God's. That's what the Pharisees were preaching. They thought the Law was good enough. Believing in the resurrection is trusting God with your life. It's the same thing.

Isa 64:6 NIV All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Matt 6:1 NIV “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

Matt 23:25-26 NIV “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

Matt 23:27-28 NIV “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

Rom 3:9-20 NIV What shall we conclude then? Are we any better ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." 13 "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." 14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 ruin and misery mark their ways, 17 and the way of peace they do not know." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Rom 3:21-31 NIV But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Rom 4:3-11 NIV What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him." 9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

Rom 4:22-24 NIV This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23 The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

Rom 5:17-21 NIV For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. 20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 6:16-20 NIV Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. 19 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.

Rom 8:9-11 NIV You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

Rom 9:30-33 NIV What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33 As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

Rom 10:3-4 NIV Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

1 Cor 1:30 NIV It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

2 Tim 1:9 NIV He has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

Titus 3:5 NIV he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

- ATP
 

Bibliocentrist

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Phoneman777 said:
Agreed - without Jesus obedience is impossible (Romans 8:7 KJV) but with Jesus all things are possible, and all means all, including keeping the Ten Commandments.

fine I quit God. I refuse to serve/obey/love a harsh/mean/cruel master. All laws and no love. The law(s) of God/world are always against me, never for me. Where was/is the law when i am suffering hell caused/done to me by others?

You didn't appreciate any good i said, just cleverly "tough" (like the devil/Pharisees/corporates).
I have always been pro sabbath/sat over sun (& pro 10/12) but i don't have the condition/situation to do much, and it shouldn't be legalism/burden/earn/force/judgmental.

When you are suffering the same Hell as me let us see you so smart/clever then (single at 42, no clean running water, can't get unsprayed food, attached/noisy neighbours, cold flat, mental illness, mother with lung cancer, heart pains/blood pressure, lost 15 years study notes, etc etc etc).

What am i supposed/allowed to do for 24 hours on the sabbath? I have no books to read, no tv or radio, can't sit out in the sun in this place due to problems here, no one to talk to, never anymuch food (and water) to eat, etc. We aren't allowed to use cars, aren't allowed to use utilities "that makes others work".
Do we go by Jerusalem time? By sunrise or sunset?

I dare say you are not being all so "obedient" in everything yourself.

Did Jesus say to the sick/etc "oh i not going to heal you you have to do all this stuff first, nothing is impossible you know"?

This topic/thread is stupid. Both sides are arguing trivialities. Both saying mostly the same things (no one here hasn't sinned/doesn't sin, no one here should be licentious sinner, all christians generally say they accept the 10 commandments, everyone agrees Jesus died for our necessary rebirth, that not saved just by laws/works but also not saved if none). The only dispute/difference between you all (not me) is whether or to what extent the sabbath (and/or the 10 words) is strictly sin or not. The boundary lies between legalism and licentiousness. The nonchristians watching this will be laughing at such squables between christians/"christians".

The Jews have more blessing and more burden than gentiles. Matthew to Jews had double the sermone on mount points, Luke to Greeks/gentiles/Japhethites had half.

Exodus says the sign on hand and forehead is the passover not the sabbath. But hand and forehaed means genuine saved/new/reborn have evidence/works/deeds.

Jesus said if you love me you keep my commandments. The NT says "what is/are his commandment/s?" "to believe on him who he has sent", and "to love another (and be one)", and "care for widows and fatherless" and "keep unspotted from world", to love the lord and love neighbour.

Catholicism is not necessarily the one or only "baddie"/harlot/Jezebel/7hills/Cain/beast. "Scribes & pharisees", Jobs comforters, legalists, slavers, poisoners, liars, Hollywood, usurers, etc.

Why do some sources say 10 commandments and others 12 commandments, and some say 10 plagues and others say 12 plagues?
 
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